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Level 23 Summons and GS.
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Author:  Sinae [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 19:59 PM ]
Post subject:  Level 23 Summons and GS.
Hey everyone,

I'm a little silly and don't understand this. Can someone explain it to me please?

If I have a EDK out, and I cast GS... Do I enter sanctuary? Or am I made invisible?

If I am in GS and I cast EDK, do I simply become invisible, or is it cancelled altogether?


Is it possible to be in GS and have a Dragon out?
Author:  555444333 [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 20:02 PM ]
Post subject: 
Yes.

EDK then GS, blammo Sancced.
Author:  IronAngel [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 20:03 PM ]
Post subject: 
It is impossible to be in GS and have a Dragon out. That was the most important aim of the change.

I don't know about the rest, as I have no tested it in game. But the announcement states that if you have EDK out and cast GS, you become invisible. If you have GS and cast EDK, the GS will be cancelled, not replaced by invisibility. Knowing no better, I assume that's true.
Author:  Sinae [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 20:05 PM ]
Post subject: 
Bam! Sinae's little heart just exploded, or will when she realises she can't muscle people with a Dragon and expect not to be seen. XD

Thanks for the feedback, I'll test about IG and see.
Author:  Uberuce [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 21:14 PM ]
Post subject: 
It's anything with more than 23 levels. Summons, familiars, dominates and controlled undead.
Author:  Metalien [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 21:30 PM ]
Post subject: 
I don't see why it needed changing to be honest, perhaps someone can explain to us players why this was changed ?
Author:  TormakSaber [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 21:33 PM ]
Post subject: 
metalien wrote:
I don't see why it needed changing to be honest, perhaps someone can explain to us players why this was changed ?


Go into TtC and read the EDK topic. It's explained in there.
Author:  Really Evil Pigeon [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 21:36 PM ]
Post subject: 
I think it smells. do sorcerers get free rebuilds and such to change spell selections, because of this?
Author:  Gravemaskin [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 21:38 PM ]
Post subject: 
Really Evil Pigeon wrote:
I think it smells. do sorcerers get free rebuilds and such to change spell selections, because of this?

Dragon + Bigbys = owneage..

only difference is that you can't just go Dragon + GS, and sit there.. now you gotta run around and don't get whacked, and work for it, like the other classes.
Author:  Funiculus [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 21:40 PM ]
Post subject: 
Gravemaskin wrote:
Really Evil Pigeon wrote:
I think it smells. do sorcerers get free rebuilds and such to change spell selections, because of this?

Dragon + Bigbys = owneage..

only difference is that you can't just go Dragon + GS, and sit there.. now you gotta run around and don't get whacked, and work for it, like the other classes.


Pretty much the thinking behind it.
Author:  Gravemaskin [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 21:40 PM ]
Post subject: 
le gasp! I made sense! Yay me!*runs off giggeling*
Author:  Funiculus [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 21:41 PM ]
Post subject: 
>.> It won't happen again, we promise. ;-)
Author:  IronAngel [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 21:44 PM ]
Post subject: 
Really Evil Pigeon wrote:
I think it smells. do sorcerers get free rebuilds and such to change spell selections, because of this?


No, they don't. If you are max level, though, it's hardly a lot of trouble to ask a DM to drop you 1 XP below the level.
Author:  Aleph [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 21:51 PM ]
Post subject: 
IronAngel wrote:
Really Evil Pigeon wrote:
I think it smells. do sorcerers get free rebuilds and such to change spell selections, because of this?


No, they don't. If you are max level, though, it's hardly a lot of trouble to ask a DM to drop you 1 XP below the level.


Doubt that's going to be any consolation to those who took Focus: Conjuration, Great Focus: Conjuration, and Epic Focus: Conjuration, and Epic Dragon Knight only to find out they've just been shafted. I know if I'd blown four feats expecting them to work with GS as they traditionally have all along, only to have the rules changed after the fact, I'd be knocking on a DM's door for a rebuild.

Granted, I don't make pansy-assed sorcerers who rely on GS as a perpetual crutch, so it wouldn't be an issue for me. Mine can actually, you know, fight.

So at the very least, I guess we can point and laugh at those who did.

If you really want to stick it to said pansies, make any spell cast after any Bigby cancel out the Bigby. Without GS and Bigby crutches, most sorcs on Amia couldn't find their ass with both hands.
Author:  IronAngel [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 22:06 PM ]
Post subject: 
You could make the same argument with any change. It's simply not reasonable to rebuild people whenever a change to the module is made.

"Shafted" isn't a very fitting word for a change like this, either way. We could go deeper into whether this change weakens characters considerably enough to warrant compensation but I doubt there's any real need, other than for the sake of the argument. Most people see the change in the right perspective and it's something that has been demanded and complained about for long. I doubt anyone's game is going to be ruined when the most powerful summon available to their powerful class is suddenly slightly more balanced with the rest of the game. Certainly, you can make the theoretical argument that it's possible, but it's hardly reasonable to perform such a massive project as rebuilding 1/3 of the server's population due to the change.
Author:  Aleph [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 22:08 PM ]
Post subject: 
Oh, I'm actually in the point and laugh camp this time. I still think they got shafted, but given the way most are played it's real hard to feel sorry for them.
Author:  Funiculus [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 22:11 PM ]
Post subject: 
Aleph wrote:
So at the very least, I guess we can point and laugh at those who did.


I like this idea. :-D
Author:  Gravemaskin [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 22:32 PM ]
Post subject: 
Funiculus wrote:
Aleph wrote:
So at the very least, I guess we can point and laugh at those who did.


I like this idea. :-D

All thoose times thoose bloody wizards and sorcs have gone "ahahaha.. you all died.. I rock.." ..sweet sweet revenge.. oh, and it's only a matter of time, before someone requests an Epic dragon spell that has a level 22 dragon :roll:
Author:  Aleph [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 22:47 PM ]
Post subject: 
Well, they still have the Sanctuary->Bigby and Sanctuary-> Timestop crutches. So it's not like they're out of instant game-enders.

Lord, if those were ever "fixed" sorcs might actually have to think to win a fight.
Author:  Zanthair [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 22:57 PM ]
Post subject: 
sorcs done need to think, thats what wizzies are for.

Sorcs just need to fling spells, and look sexy while doing so.
Author:  wakaman [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 22:58 PM ]
Post subject: 
I was a bit 'nunny' about this change at first, simply because I truely thought that it'd make the life of the quintensential (low AC, low hp) mage extremely difficult.

However, just after the original post was made I began experimenting quite vigurously with a wide variety of spells against various spawns and discovered that GS is not as neccesary as one would think, even in places such as the Abyss.

If they work the correct spells, mages are still on the top of the PVE/PvBoss list, in my eyes. The PvP part, not so much (a bit of a loss there), but luckily, mages don't realy -need- EDK to win a PvP battle for them.
Author:  ILoveIceCream [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 23:20 PM ]
Post subject: 
wakaman wrote:
If they work the correct spells, mages are still on the top of the PVE/PvBoss list, in my eyes. The PvP part, not so much (a bit of a loss there), but luckily, mages don't realy -need- EDK to win a PvP battle for them.


yep, just spam timestop + Greater Issac's missles.....take down an army
Author:  Coolplayer(akaMiselle) [ Sun, Feb 17 2008, 23:24 PM ]
Post subject: 
Zanthair wrote:
sorcs done need to think, thats what wizzies are for.

Sorcs just need to fling spells, and look sexy while doing so.


Or you can silence them and make them look dumb. :D
Author:  Zanthair [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 0:29 AM ]
Post subject: 
um every sexy sorc i know totally has that feat to cast spells while silent.

which makes them even MORE sexy. Its like a dance.
Author:  Sokar Rostau [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 1:04 AM ]
Post subject: 
I hate seeing mages running around in GS while I am contributing whatever paltry spell I can to a fight. I don't care if you have an EDK out fighting you should be casting your offensive spells instead of standing around doing nothing, that was never what GS was meant to be used for. This change, however, makes the spell redundant altogether and it can't even be used for it's intended purpose of saving the mage's life when the entire mob runs past all the summons and melee PCs just to sink their teeth into the low ac/hp guy in back. It happens all the time and having to wait until all your summons are dead before you can cast GS is a death sentence. I agree with the EDK (maybe Gate) part of changing GS, but not the rest of the summons.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 1:32 AM ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
It happens all the time and having to wait until all your summons are dead before you can cast GS is a death sentence.

Or, you could, you know... right click the summon, click "unsummon", and GS and run.
Author:  Sokar Rostau [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 1:41 AM ]
Post subject: 
You can't do that when half of the spawn is already chasing you in circles because they are attracted to your low AC.
Author:  Xenos [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 2:34 AM ]
Post subject: 
No reasion to have your dragon out in abyss anyway. The XP is about the same, just go into Spires, stay invis and let dragon go nuts. You want to get to the shops in Abyss? GS and walk there, dont bother fighting, no reasion at all to fight the demons. If you want to make money, just go farm +3 loot areas, as fast as you farm it, you will make far more gold then you will in abyss anyway, and with very little risk.
Author:  Sinae [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 4:19 AM ]
Post subject: 
Ok, so this simply means you'll need to pay more attention and think about things. Before I had my dragon I was purely a buff, then spellslinger until I'm out of spells and GS as last resort. You can do the same now.

Learn to use those Acid Sheaths! Premonitions! Shadow Shields! Imp Invis! Gr Stoneskin! You'll be fine.

All it takes is a little cunning and you, the Sorcerer, will stay on top!
(Everyone else can go jump. Sorcerer's forever!)
Author:  Dwagin [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 4:43 AM ]
Post subject: 
I don't think its good and well to tease people about this change. I think its meanspirited. You can be happy for the change, you can explain why you feel its the best day ever, but poking fun at other's expense is wrong.
Author:  Galenson [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 5:05 AM ]
Post subject: 
*Kick's legs back* ah... for once it's not the clerics who have been effected by this.

Tormak for once I have nothing to complain about.
Author:  camthrax [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 5:12 AM ]
Post subject: 
Galenson wrote:
*Kick's legs back* ah... for once it's not the clerics who have been effected by this.

Tormak for once I have nothing to complain about.


Isn't it? Some clerics do rely on summons. Of course, they can still hand out the pwnsauce by themselves, however, Not everyone wants to play a STR based cleric.
Author:  Really Evil Pigeon [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 5:17 AM ]
Post subject: 
I don't dragon.. I think dragons smells as much as this rule.. kinda like I'm against P90's in cod4.. they are like legal hax. and I never use one
Author:  TormakSaber [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 5:55 AM ]
Post subject: 
camthrax wrote:
Galenson wrote:
*Kick's legs back* ah... for once it's not the clerics who have been effected by this.

Tormak for once I have nothing to complain about.


Isn't it? Some clerics do rely on summons. Of course, they can still hand out the pwnsauce by themselves, however, Not everyone wants to play a STR based cleric.


Um, a Wis base and Cha base cleric will do just fine after their buffs outside of GS... O.o
Author:  BrainSplitter [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 6:01 AM ]
Post subject: 
*Cry*

Don't make this into a Clerics debate.
Author:  Galenson [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 6:36 AM ]
Post subject: 
Too late.
Author:  xordae [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 7:06 AM ]
Post subject: 
This change was needed. Thumbs up!

And remember: If you're complaining, then you're a filthy GSEDKer. :wink:
Author:  hendrack [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 7:54 AM ]
Post subject: 
Whats the fuzz? My level 28 wizard can still solo the Abyss with an EDK and a dominated balor with plain invisibility. And for PvP: staying in GS while your EDK whacks the other is lame anyway, IMHO.

Quote:
I hate seeing mages running around in GS while I am contributing whatever paltry spell I can to a fight. I don't care if you have an EDK out fighting you should be casting your offensive spells instead of standing around doing nothing, that was never what GS was meant to be used for.


There are not much spells that can harm, for example, an Abyss critter except bigby, sunburst and domination
Author:  soundofastream [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 8:05 AM ]
Post subject: 
At last Druids can smirk with the warriors!
Author:  drymouth [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 8:32 AM ]
Post subject: 
soundofastream wrote:
At last Druids can smirk with the warriors!


While they get wtfpwned cause they can't even get their AC up to that of their companions without monk levels
Author:  ClockworkRed [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 8:49 AM ]
Post subject: 
I am in the *point and laugh* faction ,but on the side of those who like the change.
Author:  Silvarus [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 9:53 AM ]
Post subject: 
TormakSaber wrote:
camthrax wrote:
Galenson wrote:
*Kick's legs back* ah... for once it's not the clerics who have been effected by this.

Tormak for once I have nothing to complain about.


Isn't it? Some clerics do rely on summons. Of course, they can still hand out the pwnsauce by themselves, however, Not everyone wants to play a STR based cleric.


Um, a Wis base and Cha base cleric will do just fine after their buffs outside of GS... O.o
Yeah, especially Cha clerics. Got to love those. Cleric is the incarnation of proper AC.
Author:  Swallow the Stars [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 10:04 AM ]
Post subject: 
Really Evil Pigeon wrote:
I don't dragon.. I think dragons smells as much as this rule.. kinda like I'm against P90's in cod4.. they are like legal hax. and I never use one


P90's are both a.) Part of the game and b.) have nothing to do with GS, EDK, or NWN.

And, IMO, if you don't like how something is used / can be used, then use it against the people that abuse it. Sooner or later they'll get the picture.
Author:  Uberuce [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 10:14 AM ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
And, IMO, if you don't like how something is used / can be used, then use it against the people that abuse it. Sooner or later they'll get the picture.
Another option is to raise the issue with the people who can fix it. If it can be presented in a calm and rational manner, citing verifiable evidence, there's a good chance you are in fact correct, the balance staff will accept this and a fix will be implemented.
Author:  Dev Disco [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 10:53 AM ]
Post subject: 
I still think GS needs to be destroyed, of course.
Author:  The Great Equalizer [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 12:00 PM ]
Post subject: 
Well I am overjoyed. I mean really, I just don't think my 13 AC sorcerer who is decked out with almost purely summons was getting his ass handed to him quite regularly enough. Thank you for correcting that problem.

I mean really, thank you very much for totally utterly and most completely screwing me over.

Seriously not cool on my end, and you better damn well hope that I don't figure out which one of you was the one to proposed this or I will be spamming you personally for the next year and a half.

Now I've got to go and Permakill my now totally Useless main character who I've played as for the past two years.



Oh ya once again thanks. I really love you guys for this one.

Lousy, damn *mutter*mutter* Build a Powerbuild now! *mutter*.
Author:  IronAngel [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 12:12 PM ]
Post subject: 
We have to think about the greater good. I'm sorry if I sound blunt, but we can't balance the game around the standards of a few characters that aren't played well. It's unfortunate that individuals may feel damaged by this change, but the common good weighs more.

I'm fairly sure than any build can survive on Amia, if only the player knows what he's doing. Instead of permakilling your character, you might want to look into new tactics. It's not unreasonably difficult. Did you actually try fighting in game after the change?
Author:  Sokar Rostau [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 12:25 PM ]
Post subject: 
Doing something about abuse is a good thing, and GS + EDK was certainly abused. But this has also punished those of us that use GS properly and that's not a good thing. I died three times tonight because I went into Invis. instead of GS while a Frost Giant was charging me. Half of the fights that didn't involve me dieing saw my Wizard literally being chased across the entire map because the mobs ignored my summons and came straight for me and there was nothing I could do about it - if I tried to cast a spell I would have been killed in one hit because of my low HP. Stop the mobs from ignoring everyone in the party in favour of the person with lowest AC, which is always a Wizard/Sorc and hence has low HP as well, and the problem is solved.
Author:  The Great Equalizer [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 12:25 PM ]
Post subject: 
Its not about how well he can fight in game, yes I COULD always rebuild him so that he was as strong as before but that would, quite frankly dishonor the character that I have crafted over the years.

So no, he really cannot survive and still be HIM so I am left with only the choice to permakill him.

And while it is a shame it is still a much greater end then to strip him of his self and let the character's essential being die.
Author:  Uberuce [ Mon, Feb 18 2008, 12:28 PM ]
Post subject: 
The Great Equalizer wrote:
Seriously not cool on my end, and you better damn well hope that I don't figure out which one of you was the one to proposed this or I will be spamming you personally for the next year and a half.
It was me.
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