AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Don't know what there is to be said in regards of the underlying issues. Already stated my opinion on it.

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I do agree on the underlying issues topic, mostly. Though, I already do think I feel the change with more conversational atmosphere than before. I don't personally mind the permanent death aspect of serious mode, but let's not make the server too realistic than it needs to be in every aspect of life.

I agree that those aspects should be improved and already have seen and felt the change in how DM's interact in forums and especially in request forums. For me the Serious Mode, the possibility of permadeath, is not a problem. But when this serious mode starts to make the game feel like reality, meaning that every little detail needs to be realistic. I play a game for fun, not to go online to work. If roleplaying becomes work, meaning that I need to roleplay gathering every little nail and plank for a building, it is not enjoyable anymore. That is an example which is over the top, but hope it sends the message. I rather have less this kind of detail thing roleplay and focus on more of the big picture. Sure, some enjoy doing every little detail through roleplay, but that is not my cup of tea. And I do not enjoy NPC's that are unaffected by everything, so powerful that they can't be influenced by any means. And when they are influenced, they are influenced due to them allowing it.

The communication should be improved as well. It is what has been causing most of the problems in my opinion. Before I was very hesitant to leet DM's know that I was not satisfied or happy with something... But once I talked things out, it helped me a lot. There has been misunderstandings due to information not being shared to all directions, and sometimes different information being shared to other people.

Anyhow, I personally don't see the need to discuss this further, I agree with the points brought up there and already feel like there is change going on. It can be seen as well.

In order to discuss that subject I would have to make reference to specific incidents and the forum doesn't allow a lot of leeway there.

Would it help if you shared those specific incidents to the team, through me Yoss?

Maybe in those cases it is not best to publicly discuss, but if it is something the team can use to improve, then I for one would like to see it and discuss it with my peers.

One of them I already did if Glim has posted it for you yet.

It's entirely possible! We're tracking a lot right now.

Hmm. Kind of wish a mathematical/statistical standard for request voting would be more eagerly sought by more than just me.

I'd like some standards for requests. Time/Number of approvals, that sort of thing.

Mimiron wrote:

Hmm. Kind of wish a mathematical/statistical standard for request voting would be more eagerly sought by more than just me.

Overneath wrote:

As for requests, the issues I see with them are rather less complex than 'could we should we'. Usually, it's the confusion over universally approved requests that toasts my bagel. I would feel better if we had an official ruling of some sort on, for example, how many DMs you need to approve a request to get a DMIG, and how long the waiting period is between thread bumps. I'd also feel better if there was a standing rule to the effect of: If you're a DM and you see a request you haven't responded to yet, check it. Do you see a reason it shouldn't be approved? If so, state it. If not, approve it and move on.

That's a bit massive a load, mind you, but I find the premise sound. At the very least, perhaps the aforementioned rulings on DMs = approval might be made bearing in mind how many DMs volunteer to frequently check the request forums. If you have 3 DMs who make that their regular haunt, then it stands to reason that 3 or 4 is the golden number of yes votes needed to approve a request. Something standardized, at least.

*sheds a tear of solidarity*

To take the other side of the argument for a moment; there is the issue that many requests are more than just a "if no DM objects approve it", since it is basically putting the burden on DMs to shoot down your request for it to not get approved.

Which is an important differentiation because it goes into things with the implication that all requests will pass unless a DM has an objection. Which is a minor difference to how it is currently but important since if you go into things with solid rules like "You need 3 DMs to give approval" you can get situations where 3 DMs agree quickly and you get your "approval" but then another DM speaks up about why it actually shouldn't be approved due to info the others didn't know about and you can get some serious issues.

Not that anything like that would be common but still. Streamlining is important but so is quality control, you don't really want to potentially sacrifice one so the other.
And with that all said, many of the more minor things taking up space in requests could be streamlined, and some things set up to allow some automation to free up DM time in game.

The issue with streamlining is, you can only streamline standartized things. Individual, unique things ot things out of ordinary, cannot be streamlined.

So if we were to just streamline requests it would mean they would all need to be of a certain standard and within a certain line. Then many individual things would just fall down.

Well there might be something there. While certainly plenty of requests that roll through are unique and out of the ordinary, there are plenty that have been requested that sit around for a bit due to this or that. But it can be helped. For instance, I think the initiative of pre-scripted feats and spells was genius. What if that could be expanded on in a way to where we had some sort of rubric where if it hits all the tickmarks, and has adequate roleplay, it's good?

I had flirted with the idea of an IC system creating system, but it might work best OoC: sort of a spell/feat "make a meal." I.E. For spells

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Pick One: Elemental Damage d8(AoE) vs Ref, Death vs Fort(AoE), Stun vs Will(AoE)
Pick One: Slow vs Reflex, Will vs Daze, Elemental Damage d8(Single), Elemental Damage d6(AoE, adds +d2 to first Ele choice)

That's a very rough, rough spitballing but you see the aim of it. Once you get a few templates set up, people creating their own spells, when they aren't anything particularly extravagant, could be streamlined. It saves time for people who simply want a custom spell to call their own and the scripter isn't working from scratch each time.

Perhaps the same can be done with request items too.

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Pick One: Enchantment = Forger's CL/6, Attack Bonus = Forger's Level CL/5 (to max of +5)
Pick Two: Stat Bonus, Skill Bonus +6, Energy Resistance 10/-, Physical resistance 5/-, Regen +2
Pick One: Bonus Feat: Dodge, Spell Penetration, Alertness, Cast Spell: Cure Critical Wounds 2xDay, Flame Weapon 1xDay

What I guess that does is create a pool like with the Mythal system where people know what's the balance of power before they request and have an idea of where to shoot. Now, people could still request more than what is offered in the rubrics here, but they would do so with the knowledge and expectation that the team is going to take a finer toothed comb over the RP and the sacrifices made. If someone requests some +7 monk gloves after 2 years of IC pursuit, two perma'd characters, and an epic monologue, of course that's gotta be given all the due weight and process it deserves. But if someone wants something that is well within the bounds of past approvals and where you don't have to worry about what happens with it being in the hands of a lv 19 Wiz vs a level 29 Ftr, then there's little reason for it to sit in request purgatory for too long. Ideally, these pre-approved rubrics would be a little bit less than what would be the max-approved simply so DMs can give that checkmark without too much thought and to encourage players to go that extra mile should they want Frostmourn. Otherwise if the RP checks out and the item isn't mechanically whack or ass-backward story-wise, it's to everyone's benefit to streamline what we can.

That in regards of Weapons And stuff won't work.

I am working in a general guideline i will Post next week about what feats can be allowed in weapons and items And which are Never allowed. Same with in hits And other stuff.

However just because it generally is ok in certain combinations it is not.

I can, of course, write down a few examples what generally is ok but that does not help induvidual requests which go beyond streamline. And out of personal experience when people spend dc they prefer to go personal over streamline.

While I love the prescripted spells, you can see it there too. I saw 2 requested since they got in and more than 20 individual

To be absolutely repetitive in a suggestion I have made so often in the past two years, I still believe the team should look into the central hub concept.

Focus on Cordor with a central server concept. Assign three active DMs there, who oversee a different aspect of the city and do plot-events pushing forward a city narrative. Encourage those DMs not assigned to Cordor to put half or a quarter of their time into the city for small impromptu events. It will generate a good amount of roleplay of interest to the players, who will spend more time in there. Player initiative will grow as a general response.

Like in the early days of the server, you will have a focus of activity on Cordor. Those of other hubs will make a point to visit there more frequently, and hence Cordor will help create roleplay between characters and factions who currently co-exist distant from one another and rarely interact.

It is a method to help jumpstart activity and storylines, and lure interaction between characters with the honey that is DM activity. It also makes the plots and events held more efficient, as they will target a greater audience.

Edit: If you do this, also ask certain players specifically to help out with player-run-events. The type of player who generally already have a flair for enchanting their fellows with great rp and events. If you reach out to them specifically, they will feel more obliged and eager to help out.

I agree on the central hub(s) premise myself although have to disagree with your choice of Cordor, at least in its current state. Cordor worked fine for that when it was "The City of Tolerance" and better allowed for all sort of character types to interact. The current Cordor is far too "Good" race aligned and restrictive to work effectively as THE focal point.
Now that could either be dealt with by shifting Cordor back to a truly more Neutral state which seems unlikely or by either shifting focus to another choice or split that focus between two opposing hubs with a neutral hub.

Either way, environments like that help naturally spark conflicts but without everything just devolving into PVP at the time, and so allows those conflicts to build to something more in depth.

I feel that Cordor is the most suitable choice. Cordor is the logistically soundest starting point in regard to level progression. The quests, hunting areas and shops promote it for such a role. You want the central server hub to be the starting hub, so that those breaking into the server or starting new characters have an easy time both for leveling and for roleplay. It also has the infrastructure suitable for it with the four more prominent districts, and the locations of interest within them.

It would of course be a little better if Cordor was a little less restrictive than it is now. Optimizing the city for it's role as a main starting and server hub would mean the city would be better off DM run. Mainly as players do not keep in mind ooc logistics when playing their characters. But optimizing Cordor further would be only an additional step. One that is not necessary. It is also better not to tie the two together, as then the idea of railroading might dissuade the concept of a central hub completely.

There is little risk for the DM Team to try out the central server concept in the current state without forced changes to the ic situation of the city (like turning it into the City of Tolerance once more), given the ease of it. That is in my opinion the strongest encouragement for trying it. If after four months the focus on Cordor does not pay off (as I am very sure it will), then you can spread DM attention again like it works now.

If it however works, then the DMs with the players can think about optimizing the city for the role a little more. But it really needs focused DM attention with events and plots, to encourage the much needed player focus and initiative there.

The Great Equalizer wrote:

I agree on the central hub(s) premise myself although have to disagree with your choice of Cordor, at least in its current state. Cordor worked fine for that when it was "The City of Tolerance" and better allowed for all sort of character types to interact. The current Cordor is far "Good" race aligned and restrictive to work effectively as THE focal point.
Now that could either be dealt with by shifting Cordor back to a truly more Neutral state which seems unlikely or by either shifting focus to another choice or split that focus between two opposing hubs with a neutral hub.

Either way, environments like that help naturally spark conflicts but without everything just devolving into PVP at the time, and so allows those conflicts to build to something more in depth.

I'd have to agree. I think the server is fairly Cordor-ed out, at least for a little while. While we did succeed in giving it more of a flavor than it's original sort of Traverse Town deal, a consequence of that was making it not open to everyone. I'd be against any forced shift back to that old Cordor, simply because it would be neglecting all the RP and story that led to its current state. My character was sent packing from the settlement along with other similar PCs, and that forced us to find other places to congregate and stake our claim. I liked that, even if my character didn't at the time.

But I can't say enough how I support the idea of "worker bee" DMs. Little plots. Hell, not even plots, have an old Farmer walk his ox down the road and see what happens. If someone tries to steal it, cool, if everyone smiles and says hello, that's fine too. I think we've fallen into a rut where we expect every DM interaction to have some higher tie-in and meaning. If it leads to something like that I'm sure no one's complaining, but every plot needn't somehow relate to an ancient, world-ending prophesy, right? Again, the DMs are put in a tough position and I realize that. Some people will continually ask for a overarching narratives and driving storylines while people like me will honestly want them to just step back and add in where needed. The answer might not come from concocting a "middle ground" where everyone is all the same dissatisfied, but rather having DMs adaptive and ready to fill either position so everyone feels like they're getting what they want, at least some of the time.

Pony wrote:

If after four months the focus on Cordor does not pay off (as I am very sure it will), then you can spread DM attention again like it works now.

My issue with this isn't the focusing aspect, but rather I question the choice of that focus. Cordor is a good choice primarily because it has always been the main starting area. That does not however innately make it a good choice for this, especially not when it seems like there is a pretty strong feeling of staleness going around. Personally I feel like doubling down on Cordor specifically at least right now is one of the worst choices just because you'd only be shifting focus even further onto the sorts that can actually be in Cordor already. And I don't think that is where attention is lacking, essentially sure you would likely draw a lot of RP there but you would do so at the expense of those characters who do not fit the Cordor mold and I think that quite frankly those are the types who currently really need more focus.

Dark Immolation wrote:

But I can't say enough how I support the idea of "worker bee" DMs. Little plots. Hell, not even plots, have an old Farmer walk his ox down the road and see what happens. If someone tries to steal it, cool, if everyone smiles and says hello, that's fine too. I think we've fallen into a rut where we expect every DM interaction to have some higher tie-in and meaning.

I am in love with this concept. I always have been. Any roleplaying venue I've worked on I've always been a supporter of the little things. Spawn a couple something's where they should not be, watch, and react to that reaction. On most of my successful characters on the server I've done just this without any powers and have created roleplay often with meaning as simple as: this is what happened today.

Examples: Recently, my Drow sorceress has been mutilating bodies and leaving them in the Nexus Hills. They're not always found! I've begun leaving little trails of pages, books, body parts, signs of passage. Every once in a while I'll sit around and watch invisible or from up on high. I've gotten into some good RP and even a bit of good conflict controlling my familiar and luring random folk into dangerous situations. More recent: some Elves surface-side found evidence of my doings and got a fair bit of interesting roleplay out of the deal. While I wasn't directly involved, I'm now working with one of them OOC through the forums to go about divining what happened and whodunnit, so they can move forward any way they see fit. I'll respond in kind as is natural.

Hell, my old bandit elf use to dress up like a Spellblade, set up a camp with PLCs near mildly-popular roads, leave treasure out and "Beware of Bandits" signs, and hide behind cover. When folks took the treasure from the camp, I'd jump out and accuse them of stealing from me and demand compensation for my damaged honor.

I've never profited from this in any mechanical way, and it usually doesn't advance my or anyone else's character down some predetermined plot. It's just spice, ambiance, and the feeling that the world is alive and is there to be reacted to-- and to react to you.

I'll keep on trucking, because it's how I have my fun and I know a bunch of other folk find a lot of worth in it, too.

You know, I don't post much in threads like this because I don't have much of an idea of what's being talked about (I didn't read thoroughly) but I rather like the above thing pointed out by Mercedes. Random annoying (By annoying I mean alive) NPCs who just do stuff sounds cool. Cordor could use some crazy gypsy people running around trying to pawn off cat meat or something. It'd be hilarious.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Cordor could use some crazy gypsy people running around trying to pawn off cat meat or something. It'd be hilarious.

Now you know why Malandria avoids the Slanty Shanty, what do you think they serve in the Wolftown tavern?

We are actually working on the central hub idea and have for a while.

I guess it is no secret that this is meant to be Cordor with the new trade halls etc and we started moving IC to loosening the racial bans. Individual bans are another story. If you personally mess up you have to lay in the grave you dug yourself

Same goes for special monster requests. If you want to play a beast that does not go well with people, you kinda know and have to expect what you get yourself into. But that#s another story.

I was working on a sideproject to add to that hub idea and now that things calmed a bit I will pick it up. That would be a small adventuring guild.

The base idea is that the guild has a small operation base in the nomad. There will be note boards for players and/or DM to post "jobs" (we are still trying to work out what the best way is to implent that without making it too forum heavy).

This will be ideal also for non epic charas. Or epic charas. The DM can check who is there and looking for a job and can offer one accordingly. For a lvl 6 group this could be finding a missing cow of a farmer, an epic group could be sent somewhere further off to find the kidnapped daughter of a noble.

Just some ideas of course. It is stuff that is small, can be done in between and even more important can be done by any DM who has some time and the rewards can also be very individual.

Just a sneak peek, I hope to get this rolling in april.

So an Adventurers guild hall set with a quest board for running more D&D like quests? The idea is commendable and sounds like it could be cool, but your putting it in Cordor. A place that is basically the old veteran cop of Cities, Neutral/Good and Lawful. Unless you guys are also planning on revamping something in Cordor like the Sanctuary of Sin but on a bigger scale then it sounds like its just going to bring all the goodly sorts together into a nice ADVENTURER™ grouping, to run "quests" and the like and any characters that are anything more than slightly antagonistic are going to get blocked out of things and it further undercuts the evil on the server.

Basically, the adventurer lodge sounds great. But can there also be confirmation that things are actively being setup for the evil PC side of the server?

The guild is neutral. West Cordor is not exactly the goody good sort really. And as for evil... there is always the question of 'how' you solve the job (it's not like your employer comes along and checks, and often likely won't care) and what your ulterior motives are to even take a job. Do you do it to help? Do you want to squeeze as much gold/items out of the employer as possible and abuse his desperate need for help? Will you take the kidnapper captive? Will you string him up and gut him like a pig?

Thanks for stating it will be happening in April, Amarice! It's nice to have a timeline for things and accountability as a whole. Are there other vague months or seasons we can expect to see some of the other changes? Things like refreshing the DM team, the available or unacceptable feats on items list, or the general progression of how approaches will take place on the other items?

I see a lot of awesome work and ideas, but less in the way of programmed and time oriented accountability. I know it helps me achieve goals to know when they should be done or people are expecting me to be ready!

Timeliness are awesome until something pops up and throws a proverbial wrench into it. There is a trend in annoyance when folks get others expectant and excited about something, and then a tentative 'deadline' passes.

I will post the DC item help guide this week.

Just 3 feats we are still discussing about.

Both fair answers! Also, it seems I barely beat the Team to the punch in asking about you, Mercedes. Already jumping right in. :twisted:

Posted the help guide for DC items and as wished, started to post DC pre-balanced items with pricing.

Setersborg will soon get a shop upgrade. That is what I have been working on the last days and hence wasn't around so much.

It will be filling the +3 range a bit and will be complimenting to the Barak Store. The Barak store is mainly centered around full plate and tower shield and strength gear. The Setersborg one will have cloth, hide and chain/scale with a mix of dex and con items. There'll also be some jewelery and a cloak and large shield. Weapons will be Battleaxe, Greataxe, Handaxe, Throwing axe, two-bladed sword, Greatsword, Morningstar, Short Sword. And I hope with that I covered some of the still used but not that easy to find weapons in game. While still fitting the area.

The weapons are also made so that they are +3 but with some mythalling are still useful as +4.

Good to hear PvP rules are going to get fine tuned a bit, it really helps evil players drive their plots if handled correctly

Is there any ETA for the dream coin to level update? I know some people fidgeting very anxiously for it to go through.

Sune agreed to handle that (the DC coin burning for xp and gold) the next week with Glim on a break.

In terms of helping player's facilitate their stories something a server I used to play on did was have a forum dedicated to player plots. Player's would post a "ticket" on the forum that could only be viewed by them and the DMs which in turn would help track player initiatives much better and provide assistance on a more consistant basis. It seemed like it helped a lot

Regarding Permanent Bans and Transparency.

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A permanent ban is the ultimate level of protection that we can offer players, and the server, against others who join our community and continuously grief, stalk players in game or real life or cheat systems to break the rules in their favor.

Has the team decided that these are the only three reasons to maintain a permanent ban? Have any of the current permanent bans been reassessed based upon this discussion?

Updated the creature list with the numbers of the new skins that got in with the hak.
Updated the wing list.
Updated the tail list for the tails that belong to the new creatures, will still have to do the tail numbers for resizing.

Cordor Adventurer Guild has found a spot and everything. Will go to the designers to be made next week. Designers have their hands full atm though so I cannot predict when it will be done exactly.

Sorry for the month delay on that, work's been a bit crazy.

What about the 2 questions asked there, by me?

Pony wrote:

To be absolutely repetitive in a suggestion I have made so often in the past two years, I still believe the team should look into the central hub concept.

Focus on Cordor with a central server concept. Assign three active DMs there, who oversee a different aspect of the city and do plot-events pushing forward a city narrative. Encourage those DMs not assigned to Cordor to put half or a quarter of their time into the city for small impromptu events. It will generate a good amount of roleplay of interest to the players, who will spend more time in there. Player initiative will grow as a general response.

This!... I have only recently returned to the server after a lengthy absence and because of the lack of a central hub I find it extremely difficult to find players let alone role-play. Also upon my return I brought two new players with me. One that is very new to NWN in general and the other hasn't played in several years, both new to Amia, both avid rpers. It is my fear that they will quickly loose interest in Amia because of how dead the server seems on the surface, and how much you actually have to dig to find rp. I think perhaps with so many long term players that have already established in-depth story-lines, new or returning players quite often tend to be over looked in rp. Now I certainly don't think this is done purposely it just happens, but in my opinion if you want these players to stick around a conscious effort needs to be made by players and DMs alike to provide a more welcoming atmosphere to these newcomers, (ex. A DM sees a player standing around doing nothing and randomly possesses a NPC just for a little casual interaction.) and a central hub where they can begin to involve themselves with other characters of the world.

Just my two cents guys..

well we kinda have a central hub. That's why we loosened the racial bans on cordor, put the adventurer guild there and will do some more work there.

If the players use it as such a hub though is something they decide.

What's the progress on a response to the bans and transparency issue raised there?

Permanent bans are issued for extreme cases of repeated trouble causing, griefing, disturbance of other players, haressement, cheating and things alike. Those bans are discussed long among the full staff.

We currently have no permanent bans we feel have reason to be reviewed on our own accord. We had a few who asked for a review and depending on how they approached and what they were banned for were either denied or given a last chance.

Forum bans and game bans can also (but do not have to be) different matters.

I personally will never say "only 1, 2, 3" because out of experience eventually some person comes along who manages to cause so much issue in ways never imagined that we still will be forced to act to protect the players and server, no matter if it is on some list. But permanent bans are not issued lightly and as said, always discussed among the entire staff.

If you mean the Cordor bans, they are issued individually.

If you feel your character must toss a hellball in the city and murder people or cause trouble every 5 minutes and gets caught, that's kinda your own fault.

You cannot whine you are banned form the pub you bashed last night either.

Well... of course you can. It's just moot.

Thanks Amarice.

I am not sure what you are disappointed about?

If you wish a specific ban re-discussed (and I may be wrong but it very much sounds to me like that) you may send a PM and say which and why you feel it was not falling under a warranted permanent ban criteria.

Same goes for IG bans from cordor. Cordor has a new government and is in the midst of change. If a chara feels an old ban was issued unjust he/she is very welcome to ask for an IC review. Or if they somehow feel it was sentenced due to ooc issues, for an OOC review.

I already did, Amarice, through Glim months ago. Sending another one would just be pestering at this point.

And Glim is retired, so you'll have to go through someone else if you actually want something to happen.

No, it was just PM'd to him and he presented it to the entire team, so it got to the right hands and has been reviewed.

It has been passed on and discussed, yes.

I've watched this thread for a while and personally, What could be better is that the outstanding issues still not resolved is highlighted and brought up.

Dont forget there has been quite a few changes in the DM team over the last few months and to each of their credit, They have done a lot more in game side providing the enjoyment that the role brings.

If there is any gamebreaking or godawful issue that needs to be raised, Make a list. I do have faith that the team will resolve any outstanding issues as quickly as possible when they can.

But so far, I've seen a lot more DM's clientside, Making fun for everyone. A lot more support with requests being put in and generally feedback seems to be taken on receptively, The feedback from this meeting may take more time because there is still plots to run, People to entertain etc etc. We live in the here and now!

This is only a post to say about how I feel (I was present at the original meeting) and that I feel the server has come some ways to resolve the issues.

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