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MisterLich
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 Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 3:35 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
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Honestly, I could care less about those guys. As far as I'm concerned, they're great fun to play with. I loved their kidnapping the other day. I even told them so and the DM that was playing the NPC's. I'd ask everybody else realize that losing pvp is not the end of the world either. It doesn't require one to be upset at losing, for one to recognize that something is a bit unbalanced. I'd also ask that people refrain from accusing others of being angsty, butthurt or the like. Keep it classy  _________________ Osiris Masud
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corypx
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 3:42 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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kalcibone wrote: here then, a simple nerf that would help fix the issue:
Shifters no longer can use -any- potions/items when shifted, thus can't randomly use a heal potion if the creature doesn't have a mouth/hands o an item that spawns out their ass. it would limit their ability and buffs to their spells or what they ready before hand.
and
put a timer between shifts so they can't just slip out of form to use a form to use items and slip back right away.
Those two simple things would near instantly make any shifter a hella lot easier to deal with, does it make it more annoying for the shifter? sure. Does it make shifter unplayable? no. Yeah.... super idea, now lets make it so you can only rest once every 8 IRL hours as well. I also like how you say potions/items when shifted....we cant use items when shifted, we can only use potions, how about we just remove heal potions from the game given that seems to be a problem your having with them. _________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE) 
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OpenTheRift
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 3:42 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Feb 2014
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Oh I agree with you, I did say there is certainly a balance / knowledge swap to be had about shifters.
I just wanted to note that there was a lot of fire in this thread that should be culled as it adds nothing. The fact that knowledge is immensely difficult to acquire about the actual ins and outs of Amia (because its difficult to actually play all the different changes unless you want to grind your life away) makes misconceptions and lacking knowledge shift the issue of actual balance.
I think once we've discussed their strengths AND weaknesses we could begin looking at balance, but for now only the strengths have been posted in so far as I can see. I haven't played a shifter nor can I be asked to level one so I couldn't tell you the weaknesses.
_________________
bad man
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kalcibone
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 3:45 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Feb 2013
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Corypx how does a golem with no mouth and no bags suddenly pull a healing potion or elemental sheild potion from nowhere? or a ghost which has no items at all the same with hips buffing via potions, even through it shouldn't be able to pick stuff up let alone hold 20 bottles of haste?
weaknessess? hmm.. well at low levels they are easy to kill, without gear they are easy to kill with the right quick thinking.. but thats all null and void when they have epic shapes.
undead shape is mega easy to kill by a mage or cleric that has anti undead spells, but the Hips ruins that added with the massive saves shifters normally have(specially if they have some monk levels boosting it). but that requires the caster to have a few of those spells and be epic levels for it to have much effect( or pure luck)
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Sleep Forever
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 4:02 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jan 2015
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You're losing because you're bad. It has nothing to do with shifter.
Cleric > Experienced Wizard > Sorcerer > Paladin > Bad Wizard > Other things
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HorkTheOrk
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 4:08 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Jul 2014
Location: Somewhere on Amia.
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Also it's not just about build, it's about gear. I can design the lamest build on Amia and make it perfect with just the gear. You can't have +4 Wisdom / Intelligence gear if your not a Cleric / Wizard and expect to win a fight. You need gear that enhances your build. Most people who Epic Boss Hunt get good gear and sell the gear that doesn't contribute to their builds. It's why people Epic Hunt. To finish their gear set.
Example: Ania, I hope she doesn't get mad. Ania's build is a simple Weapon Master. But with her gear it is enhanced to the best Weapon Master she can be. If she didn't contain the gear she does, she'd lose most fights.
In words, it's not the build mechanics it's the server mechanics.
_________________ Hork the Ork - Barbarian Ogrillion. [ac]
June Lucaus - Division One Marksmen.
Available RP Times : Weekdays [4:30 PM - 10:30 PM]
Weekends [10:00 AM - whenever.] [/ac]
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kalcibone
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 4:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 18 Feb 2013
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and shifters dont need gear.. all it does is enhance the passive gear they get from the shift.
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Solvaras
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 4:26 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Mar 2011
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kalcibone wrote: and shifters dont need gear.. all it does is enhance the passive gear they get from the shift. By that logic, monks dont need gear. All gear does is enhance the passives they get. Wizards dont need gear. All gear does is enhance the passives they get from spells. Bards dont.....see where I'm going with this?
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HorkTheOrk
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 4:30 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Jul 2014
Location: Somewhere on Amia.
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I'd have to agree with Solvaras.
_________________ Hork the Ork - Barbarian Ogrillion. [ac]
June Lucaus - Division One Marksmen.
Available RP Times : Weekdays [4:30 PM - 10:30 PM]
Weekends [10:00 AM - whenever.] [/ac]
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MisterLich
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 4:48 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
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Sleep Forever wrote: You're losing because you're bad. It has nothing to do with shifter.
Cleric > Experienced Wizard > Sorcerer > Paladin > Bad Wizard > Other things Lol Paladin is even on that list, but Palemasters and Shifters aren't Lol _________________ Osiris Masud
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Sleep Forever
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 4:53 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jan 2015
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MisterLich wrote: Sleep Forever wrote: You're losing because you're bad. It has nothing to do with shifter.
Cleric > Experienced Wizard > Sorcerer > Paladin > Bad Wizard > Other things Lol Paladin is even on that list, but Palemasters and Shifters aren't Lol You're playing a tumble-less strength build. The only reason you think they are good is because your AC is about as low as it possibly can be (and thus they can hit you) and you require crits to do significant damage. A paladin on the other hand can easily break 60 ac, have near untouchable saves and immunities to the mind effects that truly matter, as well as having base damage in the mid forties.
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Solvaras
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 4:58 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Mar 2011
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Let's go through the numbers and you tell me where it's overpowered. Iron Golem 10/+4 damage resist Construct immunities +20 discipline AB: 40 ab (probably missing one or two ab in the calc) AC: 44, 48 with haste, 49 with mage armor And this is the monster tearing up people? Quote: Paladin is even on that list, but Palemasters and Shifters aren't Palemasters are, they're under bad wizard 
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CMSgt
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 5:01 AM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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I think ML has a valid point about the Wraith having hips and monk ubab is bullocks and the Golem, I don't think i've ever seen any of the shifter forms defeated by a weapon master or melee focused character.
Besides the fact that the shifter class has an edge up on most other classes, there are a couple other decent points I can come up with. For example, which I haven't heard mentioned yet, and is staggering to me, is that some of the shapes have INFINITE firepower, and a lot of the ammunition is granted without a save to the defender - in fact, you'd need epic loot bin items to even hope to survive. In addition, the substantial HP bonus while shifted, countless immunities, and availability of healing potions makes them near impossible to destroy.
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Solvaras
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 5:06 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Mar 2011
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CMSgt wrote: Besides the fact that the shifter class has an edge up on most other classes, there are a couple other decent points I can come up with. For example, which I haven't heard mentioned yet, and is staggering to me, is that some of the shapes have INFINITE firepower, and a lot of the ammunition is granted without a save to the defender - in fact, you'd need epic loot bin items to even hope to survive. In addition, the substantial HP bonus while shifted, countless immunities, and availability of healing potions makes them near impossible to destroy. HUH? I assure you they have saves which with the way it's calculated anyone with a little bit of spell resist will resist. People keep throwing out healing potions. If someone's using healing potions while in wraith form, you've already won the fight....
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CMSgt
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 5:09 AM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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Solvaras wrote: Let's go through the numbers and you tell me where it's overpowered.
Iron Golem
10/+4 damage resist
Construct immunities
+20 discipline
AB:
40 ab (probably missing one or two ab in the calc)
AC:
44, 48 with haste, 49 with mage armor
And this is the monster tearing up people?
I think you're forgetting the substantial HP boost, the gear that the character is wearing before the shift and the list goes on... Oh, you did mention "construct immunities" but didn't highlight the immunity critical hits, death magic, disease, level drain, ability drain, mind-affecting spells, paralysis, poison, and sneak attacks. Shall I expand the analysis further?
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HorkTheOrk
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 5:12 AM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Jul 2014
Location: Somewhere on Amia.
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Most of the creatures that get the best benefits, shift form wise have the biggest disadvantages.
Exp: Undead Shape - Undead creatures - Immue to crit easy to Great Smite.
_________________ Hork the Ork - Barbarian Ogrillion. [ac]
June Lucaus - Division One Marksmen.
Available RP Times : Weekdays [4:30 PM - 10:30 PM]
Weekends [10:00 AM - whenever.] [/ac]
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Solvaras
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 5:17 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 Mar 2011
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My numbers are with gear so yes, please expand further. I calculated the ac as having 19 shifter levels and a tumble dump, and the ab as being 5 druid/20 druid/5 +1 ab a level class. That's the best I can come up with.
*edit*
AC should be 53. Forgot potions
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Lethaux
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 5:27 AM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Aug 2009
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Paladins > shifters
_________________ 
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CMSgt
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 5:36 AM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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Solvaras wrote: HUH? I assure you they have saves which with the way it's calculated anyone with a little bit of spell resist will resist. People keep throwing out healing potions. If someone's using healing potions while in wraith form, you've already won the fight.... It's easy to hone in on one argument or one aspect of a build and say yes there is a counter for it... But at what point to you determine that, in order to combat this target, you'd require more counters than what is possible? At what point do you say this is to many advantages for one class to have? I think this is exactly what makes the shifter class a over the edge, the fact that it is bar none the most versatile class on the server. The fact that it can outperform other classes at their immediate focus, then shift over and do the same to the rest of the classes is absolute rubbish from a balance standpoint.
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MisterLich
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 5:46 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
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There are still a couple people saying I'm horrible at building, or Frugdar's terrible, or he can't fight anybody that has decent AB, etc. etc... So, first of all, thanks for your lovely comments. It's not as if I built Frugdar, or anything, and thus know exactly how he performs mechanically, and why. He started as a novelty build, to put out as much damage as humanly possible in any given round. He's a lot of fun.
Secondly, I never said "Frugdar should be able to 1v1 shifters". I said that it's a problem when a Shifter 1v7's a group of 30's and wins.
Let's keep the ad hominem low, and the reading comprehension high, please.
_________________ Osiris Masud
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Sleep Forever
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 5:49 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jan 2015
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MisterLich wrote: There are still a couple people saying I'm horrible at building, or Frugdar's terrible, or he can't fight anybody that has decent AB, etc. etc... So, first of all, thanks for your lovely comments. It's not as if I built Frugdar, or anything, and thus know exactly how he performs mechanically, and why. He started as a novelty build, to put out as much damage as humanly possible in any given round. He's a lot of fun.
Secondly, I never said "Frugdar should be able to 1v1 shifters". I said that it's a problem when a Shifter 1v7's a group of 30's and wins.
Let's keep the ad hominem low, and the reading comprehension high, please. You mocked me. Don't be rude then expect politeness.
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LetumLux
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 5:50 AM |
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Player
Joined: 31 May 2007
Location: Amia IKEA
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Yep. I think it's time for another pause. Everyone take a break from this thread, go get a drink, stretch, take a walk, think about something else for a while.
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001182811
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 5:50 AM |
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Joined: 21 Sep 2014
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LetumLux
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Posted: Sun, Jan 25 2015, 5:51 AM |
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Player
Joined: 31 May 2007
Location: Amia IKEA
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If you were still typing up a reply and got stopped up by the lock, you should be able to use the back on your browser to grab and copy your post so it doesn't get lost.
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