AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I just noticed the summoning scrolls not being there, and I have to agree that it is a good and obvious move. I can't even tell you how many times I've been told that I 'should' be buying them to powerlevel through areas above my character's level. What's the point of having low levels in the game at all if there are easily available ways to circumvent that? They were just to much of an 'easy button'.

Even if you don't like leveling, is it actually more fun to simply have a summon do it for you? I'm still confused why the people that hate leveling feel the need to be high level, and instantly at that. And the job system still exists to completely avoid hunting if you choose.

DnD is a social game, NWN is an interpretation of that game, and we are playing it on a multiplayer server... making it social. Soloing should never be encouraged, IMO. Creating characters that are anti-social is, rather obviously, creating an extra hurdle for your character to surmount. That's not saying not to do it, but arguing that a self inflicted challenge should not be there, is redundant.

Casvenx wrote:

Soloing should never be encouraged, IMO.

A server that makes soloing unwelcome is a server that makes new players unwelcome.

Liz wrote:

Casvenx wrote:

Soloing should never be encouraged, IMO.

A server that makes soloing unwelcome is a server that makes new players unwelcome.

And also makes players with odd play times / characters with strict dynamics unwelcome. It's been a challenge finding a reliable group of people (up until recently) to help level my Sun Elf because I role play him like a traditional Sun Elf -- which means I can't party with any monstrous races, any obviously evil character, any drow of any kind, or even half-orcs and humans of certain types. That's a pretty narrow window to see through.

This is kind of similar to the situation we had with gold. Gold drops were removed from monsters, then I think shortly after that the shops were capped. We were told there was something in the works, but there was a long period of uncertainty. Then it got changed back to gold drops because what was in the works couldn't be implemented in time. I realise that Glim is well on his way through a few dungeons, but would it be safe to assume that an overhaul of the entire server from level 2 up is going to take some time? I just wanted to draw attention that this sounds like a very similar situation.

That said, leveling really is easy. It might be hard for new players at first, but they'll work it out eventually. We just need to be there to help them through it and give them tips.

Leveling doesn't only come down to summoning scrolls.

Gobbledygook wrote:

This is kind of similar to the situation we had with gold. Gold drops were removed from monsters, then I think shortly after that the shops were capped. We were told there was something in the works, but there was a long period of uncertainty. Then it got changed back to gold drops because what was in the works couldn't be implemented in time. I realise that Glim is well on his way through a few dungeons, but would it be safe to assume that an overhaul of the entire server from level 2 up is going to take some time? I just wanted to draw attention that this sounds like a very similar situation.

That said, leveling really is easy. It might be hard for new players at first, but they'll work it out eventually. We just need to be there to help them through it and give them tips.

Leveling doesn't only come down to summoning scrolls.

Now this is a valid concern, and posted in a thought out, constructive manner. I can’t tell you how much I appreciated seeing a post like this.

To answer your question, there are a few differences to the example you provided. Firstly, not every dungeon will get an overhaul; many are fine as is, or might only be in need of some aesthetically oriented changes which can really be done at any time and have no bearing on leveling. Secondly, one of the chief issues with the “big change” that had been planned to replace gold drops originally was that it was an “all or nothing” sort of change. All this work had to be put into it on multiple fronts, before any of it could be introduced into the module, which is ultimately what caused its downfall. The design team didn’t have enough hands/time to complete such a broad concept in any sort of timely fashion and thus the project was scrapped in favor of the gold drops again.

In this case however, the changes will be introduced in pieces or sections over time and from the ground up, so the benefits (while not as wide-spread as an “instantly completed” system) will be immediate, parts of a larger whole. Most of the changes won’t even require re-designs of existing dungeons, only adding or altering a quest here, introducing a new quest item there, etc.

Lastly, the other issue with the gold drops was that they were cut out before the new system was ready to go into play. We will be “trimming some fat” from the quest system that either no one uses or is broken for example, but not until something to replace it has already been finished and put IG.

Your comment about new players is also dead on, and this is an attempt to not only keep things interesting for our “veteran players” but also to offer clearer paths for new players unfamiliar with the server. Not necessarily make it –easier- for them to level, but make it more “user friendly” for them to level. In essence, the NPCs and quest givers will be taking care of some of the work in regards to giving them tips and tricks, by suggesting where they might go next for their current level along the paths.

That’s the essence of this initiative and one of the reasons that it is more beneficial than any summon scroll could ever be.

Glim wrote:

Gobbledygook wrote:

This is kind of similar to the situation we had with gold. Gold drops were removed from monsters, then I think shortly after that the shops were capped. We were told there was something in the works, but there was a long period of uncertainty. Then it got changed back to gold drops because what was in the works couldn't be implemented in time. I realise that Glim is well on his way through a few dungeons, but would it be safe to assume that an overhaul of the entire server from level 2 up is going to take some time? I just wanted to draw attention that this sounds like a very similar situation.

That said, leveling really is easy. It might be hard for new players at first, but they'll work it out eventually. We just need to be there to help them through it and give them tips.

Leveling doesn't only come down to summoning scrolls.

Now this is a valid concern, and posted in a thought out, constructive manner. I can’t tell you how much I appreciated seeing a post like this.

To answer your question, there are a few differences to the example you provided. Firstly, not every dungeon will get an overhaul; many are fine as is, or might only be in need of some aesthetically oriented changes which can really be done at any time and have no bearing on leveling. Secondly, one of the chief issues with the “big change” that had been planned to replace gold drops originally was that it was an “all or nothing” sort of change. All this work had to be put into it on multiple fronts, before any of it could be introduced into the module, which is ultimately what caused its downfall. The design team didn’t have enough hands/time to complete such a broad concept in any sort of timely fashion and thus the project was scrapped in favor of the gold drops again.

In this case however, the changes will be introduced in pieces or sections over time and from the ground up, so the benefits (while not as wide-spread as an “instantly completed” system) will be immediate, parts of a larger whole. Most of the changes won’t even require re-designs of existing dungeons, only adding or altering a quest here, introducing a new quest item there, etc.

Lastly, the other issue with the gold drops was that they were cut out before the new system was ready to go into play. We will be “trimming some fat” from the quest system that either no one uses or is broken for example, but not until something to replace it has already been finished and put IG.

Your comment about new players is also dead on, and this is an attempt to not only keep things interesting for our “veteran players” but also to offer clearer paths for new players unfamiliar with the server. Not necessarily make it –easier- for them to level, but make it more “user friendly” for them to level. In essence, the NPCs and quest givers will be taking care of some of the work in regards to giving them tips and tricks, by suggesting where they might go next for their current level along the paths.

That’s the essence of this initiative and one of the reasons that it is more beneficial than any summon scroll could ever be.

This is a fantastic explanation, Glim, and one I think a lot of the player base has (or at least I have) been wanting and needing to read. I'm liking the new direction. Thanks for the effort and keep up the good work!

Glim wrote:

Lastly, the other issue with the gold drops was that they were cut out before the new system was ready to go into play. We will be “trimming some fat” from the quest system that either no one uses or is broken for example, but not until something to replace it has already been finished and put IG.

Ahhhh, you mean like the summoning items and scrolls which were removed before the "new system" is up? (Or at least a number of the new changes implemented.) A decent amount of the lower level system should be up before it's actually fixing the problem you have created by removing summoning items/scrolls.

If most of the system mainly for the lower levels that said scrolls really help in had been put in then the problem of taking out the summoning items would have been far less.

You can still get level 1, 2 , and 3 summon scrolls in at least one major center.

The Great Equalizer wrote:

Ahhhh, you mean like the summoning items and scrolls which were removed before the "new system" is up? (Or at least a number of the new changes implemented.) A decent amount of the lower level system should be up before it's actually fixing the problem you have created by removing summoning items/scrolls.

If most of the system mainly for the lower levels that said scrolls really help in had been put in then the problem of taking out the summoning items would have been far less.

This:

O'Raghailligh wrote:

You can still get level 1, 2 , and 3 summon scrolls in at least one major center.

Plus removing the summon scrolls has nothing to do with the quest arcs.

Incidentally, your post is a 180 flip from Gobbledygook's and only serves to fan flames and promote argument, rather than incite constructive commentary and discussion.

If your solution for character leveling was a Summon Creature VII scroll, you should pay a visit to the "How to fish" build topic. Or maybe think outside the box, and walk the unwalked path; there are -so- many quests that can give you easy money and easy exp on B-Mia, but people underuse them, prefering to powerlevel through spiders with a Summoned Creature.

I think the point of removing these scrolls was to already make people keen on discovering new areas, trying new things, so when the actual new stuff became implemented, it wouldn't be ignored. Because, let's face it: If there's an easy mode, whatever the new areas you create for the module, if they do not compete in productivity with these methods (aka Summon Scroll + Potion of Invis through higher leveled areas), they would be ignored by most of players leveling characters.

If you want to still summon these things, you have two options: play a caster, or find one that will scribe these items for you. All that these scrolls did was make people lazy and discouraged interraction; who needs a party when you can just sit there, pick up all the loot and watch the creature do all the work while you drink on 3-minutes invisiblity potions.

Possibly although if so only incidentally. And my point way only brought up because you yourself called the issue of the scrolls "moot" thanks to the new system being put in place. And futher, my comments are meant as constructive.

You were being dismissive of objectively valid concerns stating that (and I hate to sound redundant) that they were "moot" despite the thing you said made them so not actually being in place yet.

Also flames can be a good thing, they hold a fire under ones ass and keep them accountable to the people they should be accountable to. And if you have people getting worked up then they probably have some valid concerns that you should listen to even if they might be mistaken ones in the end.

Righteous Anger wrote:

Liz wrote:

Casvenx wrote:

Soloing should never be encouraged, IMO.

A server that makes soloing unwelcome is a server that makes new players unwelcome.

And also makes players with odd play times / characters with strict dynamics unwelcome. It's been a challenge finding a reliable group of people (up until recently) to help level my Sun Elf because I role play him like a traditional Sun Elf -- which means I can't party with any monstrous races, any obviously evil character, any drow of any kind, or even half-orcs and humans of certain types. That's a pretty narrow window to see through.

I recently started one just like that. Yes, it limits your possibilities... but that is inherent in the choice to play the character. If I were to build a front line character that will only ever achieve 20 AC, should I be upset when they get hit often?

And to be clear, I didn't say (or mean) that people shouldn't solo. It happens, it will always happen. Both because some people prefer to, others are victim of slow time zones... or a variety of other situations. Not building the server to encourage it is different then trying to stop it from happening. Obviously, to me anyways, if you are soloing, it shouldn't be in areas that are balanced for a full party of your level, or even out of your level range entirely.

Anyways, I for one am glad to see the change, and even more so to see DMs and builders actively consider and work on things to improve the server. The quests are something I have noticed needed a bit of help... After 4 or 5 months of starting quite a few new characters I am still finding quests I had no idea about. But even just with the ones I do know about, it is entirely possible to get to about level 10 solo, without repeating any zone. And probably higher as that's just where my quest knowledge seems to dry up, or a group is needed.

No (not you, Casvenx).

Because that is the entirety of the reply that needs to be said to that.

The Great Equalizer wrote:

Possibly although if so only incidentally. And my point way only brought up because you yourself called the issue of the scrolls "moot" thanks to the new system being put in place. And futher, my comments are meant as constructive.

You were being dismissive of objectively valid concerns stating that (and I hate to sound redundant) that they were "moot" despite the thing you said made them so not actually being in place yet.

I was trying to assuage the fears of those who saw a problem where none really exists anyway.

The Great Equalizer wrote:

Also flames can be a good thing, they hold a fire under ones ass and keep them accountable to the people they should be accountable to. And if you have people getting worked up then they probably have some valid concerns that you should listen to even if they might be mistaken ones in the end.

I can see the merit of this in a general sense. However where this situation is concerned, I can assure you that I don't need anyone to "put a fire under my ass" and doing so only makes me work less, not more. I'll leave it at that before I go into a rant.

mirvala- wrote:

All that these scrolls did was make people lazy and discouraged interraction; who needs a party when you can just sit there, pick up all the loot and watch the creature do all the work while you drink on 3-minutes invisiblity potions.

Nobody needs a party. You want one because we're an RP server and RPing if far more fun than just playing by yourself. That said sometimes people can't get parties and still want to go out there and do stuff even if they don't have optimized builds.

No matter how hard you make it you can't force people not to solo if they really want to. Remove a crutch that some people rely on without giving them something else to hold usually ends up with them falling on there ass. And in this case and for some people those scrolls might have been just such a crutch.

The fact that scrolls aren't available from a merchant with infinite supplies anymore just means you'll have to invest a few more coins in said scrolls. They still exist, they're just not available from a merchant from whom it was too easy to get a level 7 spell on -anyone-.

I don't really mind myself. And to be fair removing the scrolls is a good thing in the long run. But seeing players who have concerns being so blatantly dismissed on the grounds that there is some "new system" that will fix it all!... once it is fully built even if that could take months before it actually makes up for it. Is something I can't just sit and watch without saying something. Partly because I am an opinionated bastard I will admit, but I really only mean the best by my comments.

I think the quest arc being worked on was to address the concern (in part) that leveling would be too hard without easy access to summon VII. Removing easy access to summon VII was to address the concern that level 4 characters should not have easy access to level 7 spells. The two may be related, but not directly.

Since I have been playing close melee character / spellcasting character / shady character, I can say that I fully support the scroll removal.

Spellcaster's summons and familiars are already pretty much powerful to get you through any area on low to mid level. That said, it is an absolute BS to be able to buy a scroll of VII summon for a few bucks (literally ONE better drop on lvl 3 will fetch you enough gold for one scroll and a spare of invisibility potions. Summon VII in kobold area with approx. 800 secs will get you through the cave, which very much mean almost two levels with no HP loose. Naturally, during the slaughter you will collect more goods and by selling them, you buy more scrolls - and you are level 15 in no time. Imba big time.).

Thumbs up for the scroll removal. At least from me.

Glim wrote:

That could be easier said than done... the whole point of using color codes was to provide only a general guideline rather than a hard "this is meant for level 12 characters" sort of idea. And with a limited color tag selection to begin with, we only have so much to work with, so I'm not sure off the top of my head how we could work that out.

Can always enable Challenge Rating, then you have some idea what's going to kick your butt or not.

If you enable challenge rating for monsters, you also enable it for PCs, which would effect PvP. I don't think we want to go quite that OOC with it.

I just want to say, I'm only a so-so builder/fighter, and I hate leveling, and I've always managed to level fine with all my characters without even knowing these VII summons were easily available on the market until right before they gotten taken out, so I'm not sure I understand the complaint. If you build a character that is weak at low level, or that is antisocial, that's on your head, you shouldn't be complaining about it here. I'm pretty sure nobody is putting a gun to your head and making you play that character.

Also, for people that don't have people to level with always and are complaining this crimps their leveling, the job system DOES give XP you know, and frequently money once you get multiple jobs, so those complaints are also somewhat moot.

It has been a short while since I posted this thread... I just want to add a couple of thoughts from being on the server so far. Please understand I'm just expressing my perception / preference:

1. The party ball is a great help when folks are around. I still feel the lack of summoning scrolls to be a cumbersome, however I'll say at this point I understand the motivation behind their removal.

2. Today I logged on to the server, found 8 other folks on, 4 in search of party but out of my level range. There was nobody to be found around Bendir, so after a few minutes, I logged off.

3. There's a workaround for low to mid level bow using characters wanting to solo in the form of the polymorph scrolls available in Cordor (I hope my saying this does not result in their removal) :-)

.

DolphinRacer wrote:

Also, for people that don't have people to level with always and are complaining this crimps their leveling, the job system DOES give XP you know, and frequently money once you get multiple jobs, so those complaints are also somewhat moot.

You seem to be suggesting that players do these boring repetitive tasks ALONE to gain xp... Is that any different from solo leveling? Solo hunting in atleast gives you the possibility of running into other parties or players... also, it can be fun!

The quest system changes do sound great -- like a single player mode if you can't find anyone to talk or hunt with.

The point was that having issues solo hunting due to build or lack of people around doesn't prevent you from being able to level at all, it just means it may take longer.

That said I really like the new quest idea that is being worked on, personally I think I'll love it.

A good example though would be for roguish types that aren't above Burglaring, burglary can be a great way to level, though admittedly RPwise doing laps in south Cordor doesn't make a lot of sense so I steer away from it, but it can also set up RP (posts on forums about increased burglary or of course, having players wander by and catch you in the act of a failed burglary)

Summoning items / scrolls

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