Hi, I'm playing that overly inquisitive blue robed wizard and I haven't seen PnP spells as of yet being the end all be all of plotline based RP.

Yes, they're used, but that's because bioware in its infinate wisdom said "Thou mayest only have abilities tied directly to combat or conversation" because in the end, that is all the game engine cares about. All the really fun things that don't cleanly map out to what the developers had in mind for the game arn't in here (like 90% of the divination school.)

Now you might say that opens a floodgate of unwanted effects. Well yes and no. There is already a built into the rules trump card. Pen and Paper abilities can only be used with conscent or DM permission. If something it too out of whack the DM can simply say "Heh, nice, but no, figured it out in game" as a player I can say "No, I'm not letting you implant a necrotic cyst in my head"

For the most part, the big pen and paper spells a lot of people complain about usually fall into the divination category. All divinations really give you is a way to enable plot to move forward. The same effect could be achieved by a bard asking "Hey what sort of Bardic Knowledge do I know about this" Or anyone that can read going look something up at The Great Library.

The majority of what does get used PnP wise are things that directly requires DM input. Quite a few of them are responses to situation that demands a solution that isn't achievable with in game mechanics. Here are some examples that happened in play:

Q: How do I stop an enemy from teleporting into our home
A: Get rid of any physical anchors they've left, since there arn't any, cast Dimensional Lock

Q: The DM threw us at a permanent prismatic wall, and we've exausting all in game spells trying to get through it. The DM made a not so subtle nudge that we should know the answer to this.
A: Time to go add Disintegrate and Passwall to our playbook then come back again.

Q: The vampires are using pen and paper abilities to scrying us, how can we stop this?
A: Time to add Screen and Detect Scrying to our playlist

Q: A friend is under a compulsion and or has been implanted with necrotic cysts and had his personality magically fragmented.
A: Bounce a graviton particle beam off the main deflector dish. (Read: I just can't remember what we did to fix it)

Now I add a few other rules to myself for using PnP abilities.
A.) Does it fit with the story?
B.) Will this progress the story?
C.) Will this enable other people's RP?
D.) Am I going to piss off a DM by short circuiting their plotline?

This goes for any non-mechanical ability. We have job systems with things like Alchemist, Exorcist, Inventor and Engineer which also open up entire worlds of possibilities that don't even have a solid PnP equivelant.

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Magic seems fine to me. I've never had any problems with it in my plots. If I don't think a character would have/should have a PNP spell I'll just call em' on it and ask when/where they learnt it.

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If I was ever making another wizard.. boy would I have ESF in 5 different schools.

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I think its pretty evident that we've run into the conflict that I was talking about earlier. However, I have seen something really cool in this topic, and I'd like to snatch it out for consideration:

- It was mentioned that perhaps a better way to specialize or limit PnP spells was to keep Spellcasters to only performing PnP spells in the schools they have focused in.

This was a raw suggestion, but it's been one of the only really solid, constructive suggestions that I've read through. The rest, no offense intended, is simply a statement of different people's views on what the problem actually is. So I urge us to focus on these sort of suggestions, and brainstorm solutions.

Here are some of the most obvious benefits from this:
1.) It draws the picture of a more inhibited Magical character. That -is- the goal of this thread, no?
2.) It encourages specialization. This is something pretty neat, actually. As has been suggested above somewhat: What this will do is make Magical characters known and useful by their specialization in their craft. If you want to use a magical answer to a problem, you may have to dig a bit deeper to find someone fit for the job. This encourages a cooperative, involved environment. You could even have people building for RP purposes with mage school focuses.

However, there are obvious concerns with this suggestion. Most Magi aren't -excluded- from casting spells that are outside of their focus (Unless they've submitted to a school). So to suddenly tell our magical characters, "No. You can't cast this anymore" is going to provide a bit of consternation. It's not like they can only cast spells that are in their focus that we actually have available IG, and this has never been a facet of Faerun D&D anyway.

So here's my counter-proposal:

- Rather than limit mages to only casting PnP spells from their focus entirely, we should segment the spells by spell level, and make the "Greater" leveled PnP spells inaccessible to any who don't focus in the school.

Perhaps an arbitrary separation, like levels 1-3 (Minor), 4-6 (Moderate), 7-9+ (Great). Limit spellcasters to only being able to cast minor & moderate PnP spells outside of their focus(es)? Remember, the aim is not to limit spellcasters from casting small PnP spells. Because frankly, that's what mages do. We use this on Amia as a way to open up the server to the very neat opportunities that PnP have. HOWEVER, the mission of this thread is to try to put a comfortable Rp limit on the general 'epicness' of our magicians in a way to foster cooperative Rp.

- Consider maybe splitting it a bit more, by putting 1-5 as Low, and 6-9 as High, making High inaccessible to those outside of spell focuses. Remember, these numbers aren't solid, they're a means to look at the core of the suggestion.

Thoughts?



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//EDIT

Here's another thought that came to mind. As a level thirty server, I was under the impression that it was level 30 for mechanical reasons (Build freedom, creativity, etc), but that our characters were more akin to level 20's. If this is the case, shouldn't our characters feel more strained to cast level 9 magic? Yes, mechanically speaking, our characters have been casting level 9 magic for almost half of our character level lives.

But RPly, I think its more apt to say that these 'greater' leveled PnP spells should be something that our characters have difficulty casting. Something to consider when looking at the magic level, and my counter-proposal.

//EDIT 2

Another concern is that some magic classes, like bards, tend to not take spell focuses. So this will provide another problem as well!

I'm not sure I'd get behind something like that, Hackums, simply because (as was mentioned before) the distinction between NWN spells and PnP spell is not a useful distinction to make in a RP-centric environment: the PnP spells that were carried over into NWN were only those that are useful in the single-player boxed campaign; i.e., spells that are geared towards combat, and limited-scope dialog-tree conversations with NPCs. Restricting access to the wider range of spells that a wizard should be able to draw on is contrary in spirit and purpose to the widening of scope in the game that Amia is shooting for, from single-player, 100% scripted box game to fluid, adaptable DM-led game. And you're still concocting a solution for a problem that's not really a problem. PnP spells are not that big a deal, and are already covered under some pretty restrictive rules, not the least of which is that they just about all require direct DM supervision and blessing.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

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A system that was in place on my old server was quite simple.

Each mage/cleric gets 1 spell level to use on spells per caster level. So a level 30 mage would have 30 spell levels for his spellbook, so they could have three level 9 PNP spells (27 spell levels) and one level three spell. Anything beyond that they need to learn, and have approved by the DM team. This also means that pure mages have a greater access to PNP spells than spellswords.

Bards and sorcerers got 0.5 levels, each level. So a level 30 sorcerer would have 15 spell levels.

If they planned on using their PNP spells they had to submit their spell list to the DM team.

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That's not a bad idea either.

And to answer your concerns, Lizzie, I would have to disagree. I think a -lot- of a mage's power comes from PnP spells. All the stuff that would be considered powerful, like Wails and the like, really just appear more like a combat trick, rather than a mage of epic proportion. Especially since they are 'more-or-less' balanced in combat against the rest of the classes. Our gear magic level is quite good for non-magic classes, so to me, I feel like the actual In-Game balance of mages is pretty fair. This is coming from having played a Shadowdancer and faring well-enough against mages. Everyone has their strengths, but I never felt outright helpless-- as I imagine a PnP mage could make a man feel.

So this leaves me to believe that a lot of this is PnP power.

I'd like to throw out a question: is the perceived issue discussed here the (arguably) whimsical use of even high-level spells?

With this, I mean that spells tend to be used because they are the most efficient solution to a given situation, and there aren't any consequences attached to using them either (aside from certain circumstances like spells occasionally botching).

While the following is unlikely to ever see implementation in Amia (and I'm not sure it even could be), I've always found it an interesting magic system for d20: the one used in OGL Ancients. In essence, it drops the whole system of spells/day and spells known. Instead, each spell has a "spellcasting dc", depending on the spell's relative power, attached to it, and requires a Spellcraft/Witchcraft/Prayer skill check in order to cast. On top of that, it adds a few other rules for the individual sorts of magic.

Divine Magic
A priest can cast a number of spells per day (the exact amount goes up with higher levels) for "free". That is to say, with the standard DC penalty. After these "free" spells, the DC's for spells increase cumulatively. For simplicity's sake, let's say all the spells available to a priest are DC 10. If this priest would get two "free" spells per day, the first casting of any spell would be DC 10. The next casting (of another spell maybe) would still be DC 10. But the third is no longer free, and the DC increases to 15 or so. The fourth spell would have DC 20. The fifth 25, and so on. In essence, higher level characters (with more ranks in the Prayer skill) can cast more powerful spells, but also cast more spells. Divine magic, as such, works a lot like it does in standard d&d. However, I seem to recall that even at level 20 a priest would still get only 5 "free" spells, which are used up by the casting of ANY spell, even by the casting of the equivalent of a cantrip. RPwise, the increasing DC reflects how the gods are only going to help you out so many times a day.

What this means is that priests are at their strongest right after praying (and every religion has a set time of prayer), which makes a lot of sense. A priest of a sun god would be most powerful right after noon, for example.

An interesting note is that the system also featured rules for group prayers, which would give the casting cleric skill bonuses on the Prayer roll. As such, there would genuinely be a reason to hold a service when a particularly powerful miracle is called for.

Arcane Magic
Arcane magic has no increasing DC, but instead the casting of spells drains HP (to represent fatigue). The amount of HP drained depends on the power of the spell (so even if a low-level caster would make a lucky roll, casting the spell might still kill him/her), and I seem to recall that even a failed roll on the Spellcraft check would drain the associated HP. This makes arcane magic risky to use and encourages casters to use it strategically. However, arcane casters can also use certain tokens (amulets, runes, wands, etc.) to power the spell, burning up these tokens instead of spending HP.

Much like group prayers, group rituals would improve the casting mage's Spellcraft roll - and I think it also allowed the group to split the HP drain of the spell amongst the ritual participants, even to the point of sacrificing some members for the ritual's completion altogether. Very thematic and very appropriate.

Witchcraft/Druidic Magic
Witchcraft/Druidic Magic worked much the same way as arcane magic, but was also influenced by the phases of the moon. Depending on the phase of the moon, certain types of spells would be easier to cast or the effects would be more powerful. At a full moon, divination could be more powerful, for example. Instead of arcane tokens, witches/druids could also use collections of herbs and other appropriate items.

There was more to this system, but I don't have the book by hand right now. The above was the essence of it though. Again, while I doubt it could be implemented into Amia, I'd absolutely love to see it happen.

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Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"

I think the proportion of a mage's power that comes from PnP spells is either a lot, or a little, or earth-shatteringly powerful, or zip zero zilch, depending on the whim of the DM overseeing the particular spell in question. Which is as it should be: the DM is the hard cap limiting the power of PnP magic. Why is any further rules encumbrance a good thing?

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

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That's fair, Lizzie. But not all PnP interactions involve the DM's. Yes, you'll have to ask permission from players involved, but its admittedly a bit of a taboo to say no. Especially if it involves your character as the subject.

I'm not sold really in any direction. I still stand by my original post that these sort of things can take a powerful hold when they're pushed upward by simple player choice in how they Rp their powers. I'm more or less trying to write up an easy-to-read suggestion that was made.

So what if said level 30 wizard wants to use his class features to try and solve problems? Isn't that what the game is meant to be? Isn't that what a rogue does when he scouts the enemy? Otherwise we'd be playing Skyrim where one person can just do everything. As has been mentioned, every PnP spell has a counter to it and/or could be declined by player and DM alike.

I've been both successful and thwarted when using PnP spells.

I don't see the issue.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

This. Also as far as the magic level goes... its nwn not pnp. Its just different and takes a further suspension of disbelief and for all the complaining about a game system that was never really designed with pvp balance in mind Amia seems to do a fairly good job of keeping things balanced, why are we fixing things that aren't really broken? Back to the subject of the magic level in relation to the rest of the setting firstly we are not a single author's narrative that can guide a single protagonist through a cohesive story with logical pacing. Secondly Amia is a place unto itself in many ways, I mean not even the Dales have as many adventurers. Its just... one of those things you know?

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Imyrr - "I need your heartbeat to haunt me, your cold lips to breathe, a promise; that tomorrow I'll wake up somewhere new."

refering to the original post, I was under the impression pnp spells did at least have to be defined beforehand, example, your wizard knows, sending, or something...you have to be the applicable level, or have arrived with it in your book (presdigitation for example, hovering your quill about is still probably a cantrip.), and in the case of a sorcerer take one of those empty spells even in place of your pnp spell, though I do not recall how strictly this would be enforced depending on certain spells I guess, dancing lights and vengeful gaze of god are two different ball games..

and then there are barred spells, assuming fly is one, wings or get down if i recall xD wish is another which clearly is barred.

and as previously mentioned karsus avatar broke stuff rp wise (netheril history stuff.) and level 10 spells are limited to those avaliable, with moral implications.

I aplologise if the last post sounded negative, it actually is hard to make a mystic theurge that can survive the abyss for example, where pure mages have alot at their disposal, i'd like to see more variation like the former is all.

I would rather people steered away from most PnP spells in the first place. DMs should use their judgement to decide whether a given spell is a good, creative solution to the problem or just an overpowered excuse to jump ahead in the story. By default, players shouldn't assume their PCs know any spells other than what's available in game. Sure, some spells are hard to ignore: Joon wouldn't be much of a cleric if he couldn't cast Commune, but the few times it's come up in game he just responds he can try, but that the Lord of Knowledge isn't prone to give easy answers.

This is only a problem if you go into a plot assuming, IC and OOC, that you can cast a Geas on the NPC or break down a fortress with a meteor shower. If you go by what you see in game (where spells don't really even cause structural damage, though we may assume some common-sensical effects), the setting isn't that high magic. A tribe of orcs is still a challenge at level 30 and an Earthquake spell doesn't break a farm fence unless a DM specifically says it does.

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Following the discussion, I'm still not convinced it isn't just a few players with this simple idea:

"I want to play in a certain way, and therefore need hard, solid rules, that for my own convenience, make everyone else play the same way."

I think the DM team has done an excellent job at keeping Amia a place where a vast variety of play styles are accommodated and it contributes greatly to it's continued success. Not everyone is going to be familiar or even comfortable with the addition of material outside the scope of the game mechanic. For those that are, a simple gentlemens agreement is all that's needed, unless specifically proscribed by a DM, so it's already possible. For those that are not, they can freely interact without the need or hassle of extra material unless they wish to. It's this ability to be included, even if you know nothing about FR or Amia, that likely draws and keeps many players here, otherwise, everyone would be flocking to Aerlith instead.

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Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.

-Krrja

Bravo21, +100500! But there are always ones, who were born to weep and kvetch...

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Evolution by any means!

I've always considered the amount of PnP spells used to be fine. What I always thought was the problem/annoying was how quickly folks started running to magic to solve all their plot problems, but that's an issue of a lack of imagination. (Nivo-- I blame you for that starting! Ulrik was just too much of a plot BAMF.)

A spellcaster trying to use magic to solve problems is not a lack of imagination. Seriously.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

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There's no need to insult people's RP in this thread. That aside.

PnP spells are by mutual consent of involved parties, and in regards to plots, at the discretion of the DM. If it does not serve the plot, or further the story, it will not work or will not be allowed. Furthermore, as a DM, if I am running a plot or event I expect to be informed ahead of time what PnP spells, if any, clerics and wizards have prepared. I expect said spells to be represented by empty spell-slots. This is also what I've always done, and continue to do, with my main.

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Playing:
Marcus Valis

It wasn't meant as a slight towards anyone's Roleplay, guys. I think you're wonderful, Nivo. BAMF means Bad Ass Mother Fucker, you know. It's a compliment!

I never said you had to be or that you should be mundane, but that I have seen a lot of characters who can't use magic run to those who can instead of thinking a little bit about other options first. I do think that every plot on the Surface I've been in has had issues that were stumbled upon and magic was the first route taken when it wasn't necessarily the only option! I was only expressing agreement with some previous discussion-- that it's possible to be more mundane in a lot of situations if you want to be!

Sure, but why would you want to be?

I imagine that if the real world had magic in it, people would be running to their spellcaster friends all the time. Why would you go to a surgeon to cut a tumor out of you if you knew someone who could cast Remove Disease? Wouldn't you be hitting up your buddy who can cast Tensers Floating Disc when you needed to move your furniture? Who would ever drive to work, if they could Fly?

Looking to magic to solve things for you, even if it's not always inherently interesting, is at least extremely realistic.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

I certainly wanted people to be more creative than running to magic because it provides a lot of opportunities for other classes and characters than wizards to fail or succeed!

I think part of this is a social issue, and it also comes a bit with Yoss's alt-itis related post stickied above.

It's not just that wizards can pull off magical solutions, but also that certain groups of wizards *stares at Nivo* have had a long running habit of listening to people's problems, helping them with them, and generally being do-gooders. After enough time they tend to become the accepted go-to guy for oddball problems. It's not that they're the only solutions, just that they've been doing it for so long that it's the first thought that comes to mind.

They've been around for so long that everyone knows why they are, and knows they'll try to help.

If someone were to pull off playing a convincing researcher or apothecary constantly for a few years, I think you'd see a lot of attention go their ways as well. A good example of a non wizard that was in this boat was Burningoutbright's Neveah back in the day. It would take days to finish a conversation at times due to everyone running to her with problems needing solving.

Disclaimer: I may or may not play one of the do-gooder finger wagglers.

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Problem solving toolkit, listed in the order of use:

1) Blunt object
2) Sharp object
3) Wizard

surprisingly, I don't have to go past stage 2 all that often!

Doesn't the wizard count as stage 1 if wielded correctly?

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I'll correct it for you

0) mustache or bearded object (pedo mustache and hobo beards dont count)
1) Blunt object
2) Sharp object
3) Wizard

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

Do what you enjoy. Don't fuck it up for other people. Stick by those principles and server enjoyment will continue.


My Salandran doesn't use magic in his role play: that's something I enjoy. Cortroy's Kell Ap Morgan in contrast thought he was a god and used magic to do everything: that's what he enjoyed. Who am I to tell either party that they can't do what they enjoy doing?


My 2 cents.

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

I mostly agree with everything with what he just said, but with that being said I also don't think mages should be able to walk around flinging around hellballs and greater ruins like it's nothing. But generally it boils down to system mechanics and balance too, you can't gimp all the mages 'cause then you'd have to gimp all the fighters/rogues/pallies/blah/blah/blah

It's generally not "socially acceptable" in some circles for mages to fling around massively destructive spells unnecessarially, and ICly it's a bit of an effort when some of us bring out the one shot big guns but that is up to the player.

Mechanically speaking 50d6 [50-300] (greater ruin) once per day isn't that much when there are some people who can wing more then half that in average combat round all day.

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And here we come to the start. -- "Are mages nerfed and inferior versus fighters? (and other melee types)" aka "Pew, pew, pew... And where is my dagger?"

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Evolution by any means!