AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Understood, thanks!

GobbledyGook (and anyone else with the same concern):

I would imagine it takes at least six seconds to find, register, and travel to another shadow to hide in.

I think I was looking at it the wrong way. There should be a nerf of course, but I thought it should be at the point an SD enters stealth, rather than when they leave stealth.

If you make it when they enter stealth, you're not doing anything except making people hide for 6 seconds until it pops back up. You're effectively giving them unlimited HiPS still so they can mash F1+F2, wait 6 seconds, mash F1+F2. And I didn't even say anything about Un-HiPSing with a Knockdown..Guess I did. If you want it to start the cooldown on entering stealth mode, then you're giving SDs incentive to wait 6 seconds, try for a KD, and attack a lot if it works, or immediately HiPS and wait 6 more seconds to try again if it doesn't.

By making it trigger on UN-HiPSing, you make them wait it out in sight.

Gobbledygook wrote:

Edit: Oh, one more question. Shadowdancers in PnP get HiPS at level 1. Since HiPS has now been nerfed appropriately, is it necessary to keep HiPS as a 6th level SD feat? I assume the 6 levels of SD were for balancing reasons, and the Shadowjump stuff was meant to encourage people to take the class in the first place. Now you would have the main ability of the PrC gained at 1st level like it should be, with various advantages of taking the class to higher levels.

Not a good idea to move it back to level 1. People would just take a single level of SD to get access to the feat and pump up the rest with assassin/rogue levels for insane sneak damage like it happens on action servers. This way they have to pay with their build at least.

I still say that SD never needed to be nerfed. I picture fighting a Dancer being surrounded by swirling shadows and misdirections. AKA the Dancer pulling the nearby shadows to cover his hide move as defined by the spell-like ability entry in PHB/DMG. They weren't broken. Just not liked when you had to face one in PvP. Of course three years of pressure by the dissenters is hard to ignore I'm sure. Guess if I ever have the play time to come back I'll have to tweak my build

Hide in Plain sight was powerful we can all more or less agree on that, but the class Shadowdancer otherwise is kind of junk, I hope that with the HiPS nerf that the class might be looked at, much like Assassin,Purple dragon knight and Harper scout.

I like the idea of cooldown period even having two HiPSter's, one being a master SD'er the other a master assassin with SD'er levels. It definetly brings back the usefulness of darkness and makes the the assassin skills of silence and blind -very- useful. You just need to know how to get -behind- your opponent and learn the right combos for your assassin. Once upon a time Sneak Attack was called "Back-Stab" for a reason.

HellScourge wrote:

Gobbledygook wrote:

Edit: Oh, one more question. Shadowdancers in PnP get HiPS at level 1. Since HiPS has now been nerfed appropriately, is it necessary to keep HiPS as a 6th level SD feat? I assume the 6 levels of SD were for balancing reasons, and the Shadowjump stuff was meant to encourage people to take the class in the first place. Now you would have the main ability of the PrC gained at 1st level like it should be, with various advantages of taking the class to higher levels.

Not a good idea to move it back to level 1. People would just take a single level of SD to get access to the feat and pump up the rest with assassin/rogue levels for insane sneak damage like it happens on action servers. This way they have to pay with their build at least.

Agreed.

Scimiter wrote:

I still say that SD never needed to be nerfed. I picture fighting a Dancer being surrounded by swirling shadows and misdirections. AKA the Dancer pulling the nearby shadows to cover his hide move as defined by the spell-like ability entry in PHB/DMG. They weren't broken. Just not liked when you had to face one in PvP. Of course three years of pressure by the dissenters is hard to ignore I'm sure. Guess if I ever have the play time to come back I'll have to tweak my build

I was thinking that at first. Really if you think about it the main place an sd'er hides is his/her opponent's shadow, is the way I think about it, at least for opponents larger than he/she is. Even this doesn't take long for the person the Sd'er is fighting to just see the dancer come out of their(sd'er oppenents) shadow and wise up swinging at their own shadow. Especially if no other shadows are near by.

Thats said on a negative or maybe productive note it would be nice to see this cool-down negated if possible when the fight occuring is -in- a large shadow like a the shadow of cliff. I'm not sure if thats possible in game mechanics though. It would most definetly add color and awareness to the class and those that fear it making others pay closer attention to the in-game shadows and where they dare to venture forth.

Hiding more than once per turn lowers the number of attacks you can preform anyway. Only thing the cooldown really changes is the fact that you can't use hips to dodge spells cast at you anymore.

Gravemaskin wrote:

Hiding more than once per turn lowers the number of attacks you can preform anyway. Only thing the cooldown really changes is the fact that you can't use hips to dodge spells cast at you anymore.

Number of attacks isn't really relevant, if you ask me. The point of spamming Hide in Plain Sight was to constantly catch your opponent flat-footed for definitive results without any risk of receiving damage oneself. It's a veritable war of attrition with almost guaranteed results.

The "nerf" isn't so much a nerf, but a balance to counteract the utter void of role play I have experienced thus far on the server. A Shadow Dancer must find a shadow to hide in for their ability to work. I don't believe it is possible to take every realistic variable into account (time of day, position of solar bodies, lighting, amount of lumens, and so on); as such, there has to be something put into place.

This has been done tastefully, and in my mind, does nothing to hinder the class's effectiveness in Player versus Monster, Player, or Boss.

Hide in Plain Sight is still powerful.

I do have to correct something in your post Weaver and apologies if I'm mistaking the intent of your view. You mention the Dancer hiding "in" the opponent's shadow. I take it you follow the line of thought that a Dancer dissolves into shadows as part of the action of HiPs. This is a common lore error players are making when dealing with Dancers. For the correct lore I'll quote from the Three Steps Students Guide:

Quote:

Chapter 3: Hide in Plain Sight
Hide in Plain Sight is an optical illusion used to momentarily allow nearby shadows to conceal you long enough to appropriately hide, despite being watched. You must be within 10ft of a shadow large enough to conceal half of your body that is not your own to use this ability.

In effect the Dancer grabs and "throws" the shadow in his opponents face to gain time to get out of sight. It's played as something more mystical because that's what we see on the screen. WYSIWYG is a lore killer. I encourage Dancer players to read everything SD lore you can find before you start really RPing the lore driven elements or find a long time SD player to mentor you. My PM box is always open to inquires for lore questions

Even better lore.
viewtopic.php?p=1061565#p1061565

Just want to say I love these changes and glad the team was finally able to bring them in.

Also Bella has always used basic Stealth and managed to use it effectively its something that takes practice, patience and just altering your perceptions a bit.

YAY RANGERS!

Challenge Accepted.

Scimiter wrote:

I do have to correct something in your post Weaver and apologies if I'm mistaking the intent of your view. You mention the Dancer hiding "in" the opponent's shadow. I take it you follow the line of thought that a Dancer dissolves into shadows as part of the action of HiPs. This is a common lore error players are making when dealing with Dancers. For the correct lore I'll quote from the Three Steps Students Guide:

Quote:

Chapter 3: Hide in Plain Sight
Hide in Plain Sight is an optical illusion used to momentarily allow nearby shadows to conceal you long enough to appropriately hide, despite being watched. You must be within 10ft of a shadow large enough to conceal half of your body that is not your own to use this ability.

In effect the Dancer grabs and "throws" the shadow in his opponents face to gain time to get out of sight. It's played as something more mystical because that's what we see on the screen. WYSIWYG is a lore killer. I encourage Dancer players to read everything SD lore you can find before you start really RPing the lore driven elements or find a long time SD player to mentor you. My PM box is always open to inquires for lore questions

Mahtan Tasadur wrote:

Even better lore.
viewtopic.php?p=1061565#p1061565

Mahtan Tasadur wrote:

They are able to use this link (\) To perform their abilities. Hide in Plain Sight works by them being close enough to a Shadow of the proper size, and then make themselves part of that parallel image briefly to hide. Like how a 4-Dimentional object can not be seen in a 3-Dimentional space. It appears flat, or non existent. The Shadowdancer can make themselves into that state long enough to actually hide in a proper space.

Seems that what I'm getting from this, my original statement holds true Scimiter the dancer lays "flat" in the opponents shadow briefly then can tumble to a different spot taking his opponent off guard. But you'd think that after doing that to many times the opponent would wise up and swing at the ground at their shadow when the dancer "vanishes" or to the shadows that flash across the ground. This -wising- up I relegate to the new nerf thats been integrated. I agree with the encouragement of reading lore but Amian lore is different from most accepted ways the Shadowdance is interpretted so I go by that only. I've two SD'er toons, one master dancer that almost became an instructor rp stopped that and have sat in classes with Derrin(very good instructor) as well and Brandrik(Mahtan).

Sounds like the flinging of the shadows is more in correlation with the shadow daze or minor representation of it or possibly Shadow Evade since the shadows whirl around someone while using it. No apology needed Scimiter no reason to be upset at someone for trying to teach me something. Now if your within ten feet of a shadow you can make that shadow reach out on the ground and use it in a simular fashion as a static shadow. But I'm pretty sure this is how it works and that the lore is sound to rp the new nerf like this.

This is just brilliant, a good, no a great decision from the guys upstairs

Scimiter wrote:

I still say that SD never needed to be nerfed. I picture fighting a Dancer being surrounded by swirling shadows and misdirections. AKA the Dancer pulling the nearby shadows to cover his hide move as defined by the spell-like ability entry in PHB/DMG. They weren't broken. Just not liked when you had to face one in PvP. Of course three years of pressure by the dissenters is hard to ignore I'm sure. Guess if I ever have the play time to come back I'll have to tweak my build

See what I said regarding PnP vs NWN. HiPS cannot work right in NWN given the coding methods used.

Scimiter wrote:

In effect the Dancer grabs and "throws" the shadow in his opponents face to gain time to get out of sight. It's played as something more mystical because that's what we see on the screen. WYSIWYG is a lore killer. I encourage Dancer players to read everything SD lore you can find before you start really RPing the lore driven elements or find a long time SD player to mentor you. My PM box is always open to inquires for lore questions

No. They cover themselves in shadows. They don't 'throw' shadows into the faces of their enemies. It's like a personal Darkness spell that effects only you for a split second so you can hide, and that Ultravision can't defend against. They supernaturally pull the shadows around their own self, masking themselves from sight, and once the shadows go back to normal they are no longer seen because you lost sight of them. Since, you know, you wanted to be exact about it.

Greyweaver: You're kidding about 'laying' in the shadow, right?

Also, just so everyone is aware:

I partied with two SDs last night and they still kicked arse in the flayers.

I will admit I am a little upset about this change. I Talked with a DM about it a little and I do agree with the points he brought up to an extend. Rogues do have failry decent ac and can avoid a lot of attacks with tumble, Improved evasion and epic dodge. My issue is that if you are an assassin build made before the module change that made epic dodge available for a character built primarily with assassin levels. You are pretty much screwed unless you manage to land a succsessful death attack on the first strike.

I know the arguement to that comment is that you can still corner sneak.

Correct, you can still corner sneak but you better hope you roll a few good tumble rolls as your target now gets several attacks of oppertunity on you while you attempt to move away. (Remember the fact that this assassin was made prior to the server change that made epic dodge feat available to assassins).

The second arguement against my point is that there are a lot of darkness on use items available on Amia. That is also correct but then again there is a lot of items on the server that also make darkness useless.

I know there is a handful of people that absolutely hate Hide in plain sight and are really happy about the nerf. I'm sure it is more because they lost in pvp to a shadow dancer than for any other reason. Shadow dancers were never hard to defeat if you know how to fight them. Now everyone with HiPS has to suffer because of another persons inability to play on their characters strength and use them against anothers weaknesses.

HiPS was abused in PvE as well. I've seen it happen. It's the nature of things. The game lets you break the combat system and so people will do it. This is not solely a PvP issue, and balances things across the board.

Okay well apparently I missed a page of posts because I'm going crazy and responded to something that had been answered so yeah...

From someone who plays good and bad SD's, I like the nerf and I think it will help -force- Shadowdancers to play nice with others and join parties >.>

beciv wrote:

I know there is a handful of people that absolutely hate Hide in plain sight and are really happy about the nerf. I'm sure it is more because they lost in pvp to a shadow dancer than for any other reason. Shadow dancers were never hard to defeat if you know how to fight them. Now everyone with HiPS has to suffer because of another persons inability to play on their characters strength and use them against another's weaknesses.

We should not have to suffer HiPS spam, because you cant live without the HiPS spam, IT has been one of the most anticipated nerfs of this server i dare say and one i welcome with open arms

Well, as many know I play my SD Krugan pretty much full time. He's my main.

It had gotten to the point he was not able to solo much with the change to the Spires. Now he certainly can't as the fact I have to wait a full round of combat to re-enter my HiPS means that the monsters wipe me out in that six seconds.

And before I hear the chorus of you shouldn't be able to solo the Spires...remember that should be an ALL or NOTHING thing. It's not hard to see other builds doing it. And no, I didn't power build Krugan. But he does have a unique power to himself from the RP and even with that, and 16 levels of SD, he can't fight a rogue/assassin build and win now (tried it...lost consistently).

HiPS was the strongest reason to take SD. It for the SD class is the same as those wonderful Hell Balls and Greater Ruins for casters or the super heavy AC and tons of HP and AB for a melee class. Or Rages for Barbarians.

I do agree that spamming HiPS was a problem and abused but, moving the HiPS to level 6 I thought was the entire reason for adding 5 entire levels to the requirement.

Now, we've added those same 5 levels as a requirement and given both the AI and players a full combat round to paste the SD if they have some brains. Many players could spot Krugan with his 100+ MS and Hide because they dumped into Spot to counter it.

I see tons and tons of Psuedo Dragon familiars to counter it. People morph into Umber Hulks to get around it. Its not like HiPS was unbeatable.

I'll see how this change affects Krugan but, for the moment, I honestly think its going to be a rather large and deal breaking change for him even with the additional boost from his DC paid and RPed special trade off.

Corner sneaking is great...if you have a corner and the target is dumb enough to let you. Most PCs certainly aren't and a remarkable number of AIs are not either it seems.

I would be interested if more SDs and Assassins can compare their experiences here. Because the Assassins that go to 16th and 19th sure seem ALOT more effective now.

Assassin seems a far better choice for those 6 extra levels now, if not more for those of us that went beyond the 6.

I have discussed the fact that most that came to the Academy only went to 6 SD.

So here is a really simple question.

Given this just NERFED the class more, lessening the one draw that even made people go to 6th...

Do you think this will INCREASE or DECREASE the number of SDs being made now?

Guess we will see...the change is in...and I don't see it being undone...like many say...adapt.

Maybe that adaptation is simply shelving your SD build and finding another class to play maybe not.

So far, after a few hours on Krugan, I can tell you this change has a rather large affect on him both PvP and PvE. I don't "spam HiPS", I use Darkness items, but once the HiPS falls, Krugan gets pasted quickly.

Maybe I just built him wrong and don't have the best stuff...I built him for RP, not to get over on the server.../shrug...I'll adapt...

But try not to spoon feed me how this isn't greatly weakening the class or won't affect people taking levels in it when already few bother to go beyond the minimums for this ability.

Personally, I think moving HiPS to 10th would have been far more effective. But that's me.

Just my opinions thus far in the testing of the change for Krugan. Your mileage may and probably will vary.

Simeron wrote:

Well, as many know I play my SD Krugan pretty much full time. He's my main.

It had gotten to the point he was not able to solo much with the change to the Spires. Now he certainly can't as the fact I have to wait a full round of combat to re-enter my HiPS means that the monsters wipe me out in that six seconds.

And before I hear the chorus of you shouldn't be able to solo the Spires...remember that should be an ALL or NOTHING thing. It's not hard to see other builds doing it. And no, I didn't power build Krugan. But he does have a unique power to himself from the RP and even with that, and 16 levels of SD, he can't fight a rogue/assassin build and win now (tried it...lost consistently).

HiPS was the strongest reason to take SD. It for the SD class is the same as those wonderful Hell Balls and Greater Ruins for casters or the super heavy AC and tons of HP and AB for a melee class. Or Rages for Barbarians.

I do agree that spamming HiPS was a problem and abused but, moving the HiPS to level 6 I thought was the entire reason for adding 5 entire levels to the requirement.

Now, we've added those same 5 levels as a requirement and given both the AI and players a full combat round to paste the SD if they have some brains. Many players could spot Krugan with his 100+ MS and Hide because they dumped into Spot to counter it.

I see tons and tons of Psuedo Dragon familiars to counter it. People morph into Umber Hulks to get around it. Its not like HiPS was unbeatable.

I'll see how this change affects Krugan but, for the moment, I honestly think its going to be a rather large and deal breaking change for him even with the additional boost from his DC paid and RPed special trade off.

Corner sneaking is great...if you have a corner and the target is dumb enough to let you. Most PCs certainly aren't and a remarkable number of AIs are not either it seems.

I would be interested if more SDs and Assassins can compare their experiences here. Because the Assassins that go to 16th and 19th sure seem ALOT more effective now.

Assassin seems a far better choice for those 6 extra levels now, if not more for those of us that went beyond the 6.

I have discussed the fact that most that came to the Academy only went to 6 SD.

So here is a really simple question.

Given this just NERFED the class more, lessening the one draw that even made people go to 6th...

Do you think this will INCREASE or DECREASE the number of SDs being made now?

Guess we will see...the change is in...and I don't see it being undone...like many say...adapt.

Maybe that adaptation is simply shelving your SD build and finding another class to play maybe not.

So far, after a few hours on Krugan, I can tell you this change has a rather large affect on him both PvP and PvE. I don't "spam HiPS", I use Darkness items, but once the HiPS falls, Krugan gets pasted quickly.

Maybe I just built him wrong and don't have the best stuff...I built him for RP, not to get over on the server.../shrug...I'll adapt...

But try not to spoon feed me how this isn't greatly weakening the class or won't affect people taking levels in it when already few bother to go beyond the minimums for this ability.

Personally, I think moving HiPS to 10th would have been far more effective. But that's me.

Just my opinions thus far in the testing of the change for Krugan. Your mileage may and probably will vary.

If your only reason to play a char is to get a stat or a feat..*Shrugs*..i dont see you having a problem as you "built him to rp", if you wanted a pvp monster you would have played a 29/1 cleric/bard of shar or something equally nuts...alot of classes are maimed in pvp, and removing a extremely overpowered ability, and lets face it, it really was, will only make the evioment of the server better..if that steps on the toes of some pvp powerhouses..then i couldnt really care less, cause the server gets more pleasent without people complaining about pvp abuse..and nagging dm's about pvp abuse..to mention a few of the benifits of this change

Cry me a river... the mages adapted to Time Stop and Greater Sanctuary which was in truth being abused... and HIPS was being abused and not just by spamming it.

Just don't think whether or not every class can solo a certain dungeon at a certain level should be a measuring stick for an RP server. I like how the team works hard to try and keep things fair and balanced for all the classes, but... I don't know. In-character limitations are win.

So, in short: *Thumbs up*

Simeron wrote:

I see tons and tons of Psuedo Dragon familiars to counter it. People morph into Umber Hulks to get around it. Its not like HiPS was unbeatable.

Correct me if I am wrong, but having a pseudo familiar doesn't let you see stealthed/invisible people. Pretty sure you have to actively possess them so you can actually see them. Also, shifting into Umber Hulk form has it's disadvantages in combat so... the person you are fighting is gimping themselves in a way as well.

Simeron wrote:

Do you think this will INCREASE or DECREASE the number of SDs being made now?

Decrease, hopefully. And by that I mean a decrease of the people netting 6 SD just for HiPS and an increase in the people attaining SD for good reasons.

Simeron wrote:

But try not to spoon feed me how this isn't greatly weakening the class or won't affect people taking levels in it when already few bother to go beyond the minimums for this ability.

It's not 'greatly weakening the class'.

Simeron wrote:

Personally, I think moving HiPS to 10th would have been far more effective. But that's me.

That would not stop people from HiPS spamming, they would just incorporate more SD into their builds. Which 10 SD is a fantastic number of SD levels, anyways.

Dieu_Le_Fera wrote:

Cry me a river... the mages adapted to Time Stop and Greater Sanctuary which was in truth being abused... and HIPS was being abused and not just by spamming it.

My favorite part of that was the people that used Time Stop scrolls, btw

Kraniumbrud wrote:

If your only reason to play a char is to get a stat or a feat..*Shrugs*..i dont see you having a problem as you "built him to rp", if you wanted a pvp monster you would have played a 29/1 cleric/bard of shar or something equally nuts...alot of classes are maimed in pvp, and removing a extremely overpowered ability, and lets face it, it really was, will only make the evioment of the server better..if that steps on the toes of some pvp powerhouses..then i couldnt really care less, cause the server gets more pleasent without people complaining about pvp abuse..and nagging dm's about pvp abuse..to mention a few of the benifits of this change

So you're saying we should nerf hell ball, greater ruin and make it where everything has see invis to stop the abuse of going invis and letting your summons fight or running by all those wonderful guard spawns to get to the boss then too right?

The fact is the main ability of an SD over a Rogue or Assassin was and is HiPS. Assassins get a tremendous boost here and the reason to take the Assassin class is those boosts. Just like it is with any other class. You take the class based on the abilities OF the class.

And if you knew anything about how I play, you would know I RARELY PvP and I certainly don't have any "PvP Monsters". This is simply comparing similar classes and abilities in both PvP, which you focused on AND PvE, which you totally left out of your post.

I'm curious what mains everyone plays that see this as a wonderful thing?

SDs?

Probably not many. Wonder why...and then I have to ask, why is it that players that DON'T play the class thing its great when it gets nerfed, then scream when their fav gets nerfed.

I am not saying HiPS is not a very powerful ability. It is. And thus, why I say move it to a higher level requirement then 6. 10 is what I said. That is ONE THIRD of your max levels guaranteed AND you are not getting ANY Epic spells at all if you get HiPS then.

But that is my thoughts. If we are going PnP rules, there is no 'Cool Down' for HiPS. Just the requirement to be near a shadow big enough to cover you. It's what sets Rogues and Shadow Dancers apart. Why a Dancer is far superior to a mere Rogue.

This change lessens that and trues someone with a SUPERNATURAL ability into one that effectively must rely on a NATURAL ability far more that any guttersnipe can use.

So yes, from an RP standpoint, you have taken a King of Hiding and made him or her must more a commoner of stealth.

Mechanic wise, I understand why it was done and I agree with the idea HiPS spam needed to be addressed.

I just think there was a better way to do it and have said so often. Apparently it was decided this was the best path.

So be it.

Nothing says I have to play Krugan and if I find he can't compete with other level 30s when it comes to his abilities, I will shelve him. No biggie.

Just when the server finds that nobody is playing SDs anymore or making new ones, we'll know everyone will love it because they got rid of those pesky PvPing HiPSers....then we can whine and complain about the next means to kick peoples butt in PvP until that is taken away or nerfed until its no longer viable.

Its a vicious cycle that spins inward until you get a handful of classes that are played almost exclusively. We are already starting to see it.

Everyone freely admits Mages are very overpowered and you see plenty of Sorcs and Wizards about.

Its getting to the point that you are going to play a fighter (possibly Barbarian), Mage or Rogue/Assassin or you are going to just not be more then an after thought.

But again, this is my take. Means nothing I know. I accept it. As I said, if it gets to the point I don't see Krugan being viable anymore, I simply won't play him. I'll do another class that is viable and start over.

That is what 'adapt' means...you change what you do based on the changes that happen.

Dieu_Le_Fera wrote:

Cry me a river... the mages adapted to Time Stop and Greater Sanctuary which was in truth being abused... and HIPS was being abused and not just by spamming it.

Then make it where most spawns have See Invis across the server to stop the "I'm going to cast invs and let my summons fights" too.

As I have repeatedly said...I am not against fighting the HiPS spam, I just figure there are better ways to do it that would fit better in an RP environment then gimping the one draw of a class.

what's next? Gimping the Death Attack Stun of Assassins?

Let's make it where rangers lost their abilities in medium or heavy armor REGARDLESS of having fighter levels.

/shrug

As I stated in my first post...I accept this is a done deal and nobody is going to want it to go back that doesn't play a SD with more then 6 levels.

Mages still get their Epic spells and all the other wonderfully overpowered spells...nerfing 2 of 200 is not that big a deal especially when most don't even bother with them.

Let's try this then...seeing how time is supposed to be 1 to 1...casters don't get to get their spells back for 8 hours REAL TIME....yeah...that'll happen...snort.

Anyways...I ain't changing nobody's minds and mine ain't going to change until I see a reason to believe differently in game.

And it can change.

I figured the loss of the gold drops from critters was going to be a very bad thing but, I gave it a chance. They changed the chance of loot drops and I can tell you, I am in full agreement with the change the DMs did now.

I think its 100% better...and I freely admit I was wrong in my belief.

Perhaps this will be the same here. But so far, it isn't. Time will tell and as I said, if this cripples Krugan, he just won't be played anymore...not like I can't get another character to 30 given some time....

I'm surprised you'd want to shelf a character you obviously care about because of it, even if they can't go toe-to-toe with other level 30s (something which I'm assuming is debatable, but don't know enough about builds to be able to make an argument).

Simeron wrote:

I'm curious what mains everyone plays that see this as a wonderful thing?

SDs?

Yes. I've played a Shadowdancer exclusively for over seven years and this was primarily my idea.

And rest assured, this is hands-down the best method for nerfing Hide in Plain Sight possible on Neverwinter.

Bar removing the feat entirely, but nobody would like that.

...If you're going to shelf a character because you can't dance circles/click the win button around everyone with bad spot anymore, then I think you played a SD for the wrong bloody reasons.

Merrien wrote:

Just don't think whether or not every class can solo a certain dungeon at a certain level should be a measuring stick for an RP server. I like how the team works hard to try and keep things fair and balanced for all the classes, but... I don't know. In-character limitations are win.

So, in short: *Thumbs up*

Never said it was. What I said is this further degrades a class that already couldn't really do this where as there are tons more classes that are far more overpowered that can.

Its a simply equation...

Rogue vs SD vs Assassin.

These are the "thief" classes.

How do each of these balance against the others.

Rogues got Sneak Attack and a ton of skill points. Limited Stealth. Few perks at 10+.

Assassins get alot of spells and spell like abilities. Can stun you for forever and a day, Sneak attack like a rogue, summon shadows and Limited Stealth.

SD gets HiPS, Summon Shadows, Shadow Evade that won't last a full combat and if you go to epic levels (16th) you can get a summon that with the addition of a Neg Eng Prot spell becomes worthless.

scratch scratch

Wonder which one will have more people playing it? Now, the HiPS is weakened because people abuse it...that's fine. Most love the change right now...just hope they equally love when their favorite class gets some nerf pickle loving. That's all.

Simeron wrote:

Merrien wrote:

Just don't think whether or not every class can solo a certain dungeon at a certain level should be a measuring stick for an RP server. I like how the team works hard to try and keep things fair and balanced for all the classes, but... I don't know. In-character limitations are win.

So, in short: *Thumbs up*

Never said it was. What I said is this further degrades a class that already couldn't really do this where as there are tons more classes that are far more overpowered that can.

Its a simply equation...

Rogue vs SD vs Assassin.

These are the "thief" classes.

How do each of these balance against the others.

Rogues got Sneak Attack and a ton of skill points. Limited Stealth. Few perks at 10+.

Assassins get alot of spells and spell like abilities. Can stun you for forever and a day, Sneak attack like a rogue, summon shadows and Limited Stealth.

SD gets HiPS, Summon Shadows, Shadow Evade that won't last a full combat and if you go to epic levels (16th) you can get a summon that with the addition of a Neg Eng Prot spell becomes worthless.

scratch scratch

Wonder which one will have more people playing it? Now, the HiPS is weakened because people abuse it...that's fine. Most love the change right now...just hope they equally love when their favorite class gets some nerf pickle loving. That's all.

If you think shadowdancer's hips, evne in nerfed form isnt still extremely powerfull..then you need to readjust your screen to match the world the rest of us are living in...not to mention they get the pre'req's for epic dodge which I still think is utterly nuts 8P

Dont like shadowdancer play somehting else, and rejoice in knowing that alot of people wanted this change..

PS i played a shadowdancer for a long time, and i would have welcomed this change back then aswell as now.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Simeron wrote:

I'm curious what mains everyone plays that see this as a wonderful thing?

SDs?

Yes. I've played a Shadowdancer exclusively for over seven years and this was primarily my idea.

And rest assured, this is hands-down the best method for nerfing Hide in Plain Sight possible on Neverwinter.

Bar removing the feat entirely, but nobody would like that.

I'll see how it plays out. I do understand WHY its being done and I will, as stated, see how it ends up.

If it means Krugan is not really any different then a rogue, or in fact weaker then them, then he'll wander off and retire. He's in semi retirement anyway from many of the folks he RPed with vanishing and not returning.

He'll get drug out must as he is now, for RP only.

I don't think I have actually honestly hunted with him in many months. The only real hunting was last night to test this change once I saw it and it did in fact mean I got pasted and needed resing if I tried to fight things solo or even got turned on in a combat as when I turned to disengage from combat, and the monsters saw through my HiPS (why I don't know but they kept beating on me) I couldn't UN HiPS and RE HiPS in time to avoid death.

PvP was not even close to funny...

We'll see...its still early. And as you say, this may be the best way to deal with it. Taking it out without giving the SDs something special in return would have just meant you removed the class. I agree on that.

also try to find out how much 6 seconds actually is..

its not a huge nerf

Caldera3 wrote:

...If you're going to shelf a character because you can't dance circles/click the win button around everyone with bad spot anymore, then I think you played a SD for the wrong bloody reasons.

No, I am going to shelve the character because its not a viable character that can survive in a combat situation in a game that revolves around combat.

In PvE, when my sneak attacks draw the attention of upper level mobs, I can not disengage from combat and HiPS anymore to survive because the mechanics allow the creatures I am fighting to still see and hit me. The way I got around this before was to continue to run from them, unstealthing and restealthing a second time thus, breaking their lock on me.

Now, due to the timer working as it does, they never break their lock on me unless someone draws them off of me thus, making PvE against creatures of the kind Krugan should hunt not really viable anymore compared to an Assassin or Rogue, the other two classes more or less equal to the SD class.

So, given he can't hunt and a player is going to be alot better at staying locked on me in PvP...it means that combat has become something an SD should avoid when compared to the Rogue or Assassin.

And I find it rather funny at all the people saying how I am PvP or Comabt oriented.

If I was, why would I take 16 levels of SD? Why not be like everyone else and take 6 and put the other 10 into Rogue or Fighter or another class?

I added the SD levels for the RP. The ability to "dance in circles" as people put it. That is kinda the entire reason to BE an SD over another class is so you can.

Right now, from what I have experienced, Krugan at 16 SD can't do that anymore to anything close to his level. So why bother putting 10 additional levels into SD?

Seriously...if this is meant to STOP people just taking 6 levels of SD so they can get HiPS and spam it, why make it where there is even MORE reason NOT to go beyond 6 levels of SD?

Seems counter productive to me. I can still corner sneak as a rogue or assassin and I get alot better abilities and perks then if I went SD.

Every argument so far that supports how this is not weakening the SD too much only shows how the Rogue and Assassin classes that can do the same things an SD can APART from HiPS have just been made even MORE the path to go with a roguish character.

To me at least.

If this isn't the case...tell me how the SD is superior in hiding now then a Rogue or Assassin.

Apart from letting people and monsters having a FULL COMBAT round to kill the SD I mean before they can hide when someone else can see them.

Simeron wrote:

And I find it rather funny at all the people saying how I am PvP or Comabt oriented.

I find it funny your trying to disguise the fact that you totally are, its 6 seconds..not a freaking hour of waiting..its about 2 rounds of ic time which means we get a chance at targeting you..not a big chance but a chance..you call it the nerf of the century that ruins the "rp" shell you call a excuse for wanting more pvp juice...i call it leveling the playing field...by a tiny tiny fraction

Kraniumbrud wrote:

I find it funny your trying to disguise the fact that you totally are, its 6 seconds..not a freaking hour of waiting..its about 2 rounds of ic time which means we get a chance at targeting you..

Six seconds is exactly one round.

You were never supposed to HiPS more often than that. It used to be stated in the rules that you're kinda expected to be a gentleman and not abuse it. Spamming it was nothing short of an exploit. It made you untargetable, period, because at least I don't have the reflexes to click an SD when he happens to blink into view; and turn based games should not be about reflexes. That is in addition to the flat-footed exploit.

If you can't survive 6 seconds, you can't play this game. Everybody else survives just fine, and they don't have the Dex AC of a Shadowdancer let alone the likely Epic Dodge.

If there really is an AI glitch that makes monsters attack you in stealth, then that's a glitch and not a valid concern here. This is in fact a good thing, because now there's acute need to look into that glitch and fix it.

IronAngel wrote:

Kraniumbrud wrote:

I find it funny your trying to disguise the fact that you totally are, its 6 seconds..not a freaking hour of waiting..its about 2 rounds of ic time which means we get a chance at targeting you..

Six seconds is exactly one round.

You were never supposed to HiPS more often than that. It used to be stated in the rules that you're kinda expected to be a gentleman and not abuse it. Spamming it was nothing short of an exploit. It made you untargetable, period, because at least I don't have the reflexes to click an SD when he happens to blink into view; and turn based games should not be about reflexes. That is in addition to the flat-footed exploit.

If you can't survive 6 seconds, you can't play this game. Everybody else survives just fine, and they don't have the Dex AC of a Shadowdancer let alone the likely Epic Dodge.

If there really is an AI glitch that makes monsters attack you in stealth, then that's a glitch and not a valid concern here. This is in fact a good thing, because now there's acute need to look into that glitch and fix it.

....are you marrie?

Its one round. So soon as you use all your attacks you can hide again. Or if you have KD you can catch them flatfooted, knock them down and by the time they get up you can HiPS again. As I said again and again, people who know stealth, know how it works, will be nearly uneffected by this. Those that just know how to press F1 and F2 will suffer and IMO you never deserved to play this great class in the first place if that is all you learned from it.

Another thing to, since Shadow Jump no longer takes the full round you Shadow Jump away now even after attacking if you are hasted its even better. By the time you get control back after the jump you can HiPS -again-.

Simeron wrote:

I'm curious what mains everyone plays that see this as a wonderful thing?

SDs?

Probably not many. Wonder why...and then I have to ask, why is it that players that DON'T play the class thing its great when it gets nerfed, then scream when their fav gets nerfed.

1) My original main was an SD level 10, and guess what I was pushing for this to happen before I stopped playing him.

2) Some of the big SD players are completely for this change

3) I was playing a mage before the Time Stop change, and I was happy about the changes because it balanced the server and it made things more like a PnP game.

Simeron wrote:

I am not saying HiPS is not a very powerful ability. It is. And thus, why I say move it to a higher level requirement then 6. 10 is what I said. That is ONE THIRD of your max levels guaranteed AND you are not getting ANY Epic spells at all if you get HiPS then.

Uhh... how many casters do you know with HiPS? Also, SD is a replacement for Rogue, minus the sneak attacks. So you can still see STR based HiPS chars benefiting from this.

Simeron wrote:

But that is my thoughts. If we are going PnP rules, there is no 'Cool Down' for HiPS. Just the requirement to be near a shadow big enough to cover you. It's what sets Rogues and Shadow Dancers apart. Why a Dancer is far superior to a mere Rogue.

This change lessens that and trues someone with a SUPERNATURAL ability into one that effectively must rely on a NATURAL ability far more that any guttersnipe can use.

So yes, from an RP standpoint, you have taken a King of Hiding and made him or her must more a commoner of stealth.

Naivatkal wrote:

In PnP HiPS is fine because the DM can immediately go 'No, seriously, stop that.' and limit you. In NWN, this has to be done on a grander scale.

Wait, so, just because HiPS cannot be used at will it's just a Rogue now? What? So SDs no longer have an ability that lets them Hide in Plain Sight? That's strange, because I could have sworn that SDs have this ability that allows them to pull the shadows around them in the middle of combat, or anywhere a shadow is near them, and disappear from sight. And I could have sworn there was recently a change on the server that made the minor (read: minor) inconvenience of not being able to do it within a six-second period.

lolno

You're right, there is no cool-down in PnP. But in PnP the DM can immediately, in every single instance go 'No. Stop it. You cannot immediately break combat and disappear, catch them flat-footed, then attack, and repeat it indefinitely without taking any damage.' In NWN, that cannot happen, so this is the logical blockage.

Simeron wrote:

Just when the server finds that nobody is playing SDs anymore or making new ones, we'll know everyone will love it because they got rid of those pesky PvPing HiPSers....then we can whine and complain about the next means to kick peoples butt in PvP until that is taken away or nerfed until its no longer viable.

Hahahaha no. People will not stop playing SDs. Like I said, hopefully people will stop playing 6 SDs for just the HiPS and play SDs with value (I know there are plenty lore-based SDs, but this should help deter the people that just want to cheese on HiPS).

Simeron wrote:

Its a vicious cycle that spins inward until you get a handful of classes that are played almost exclusively. We are already starting to see it.

Do you have proof of this? Seriously, I highly doubt you can back this up.

Simeron wrote:

Everyone freely admits Mages are very overpowered and you see plenty of Sorcs and Wizards about.

Its getting to the point that you are going to play a fighter (possibly Barbarian), Mage or Rogue/Assassin or you are going to just not be more then an after thought.

Right. So! Let's stop playing mages because they are OP! Oh! You forgot about Clerics and Paladins! :roll:

Simeron wrote:

Then make it where most spawns have See Invis across the server to stop the "I'm going to cast invs and let my summons fights" too.

As I have repeatedly said...I am not against fighting the HiPS spam, I just figure there are better ways to do it that would fit better in an RP environment then gimping the one draw of a class.

1) Oh yes, because that makes any sense how?

2) Hahahahaha. It's not gimped. Hardly. If you read anythign I have posted, you will see I still saw SDs highly owning in the flayers. Last night. Lag was the only thing getting in the way of anything.

Simeron wrote:

Mages still get their Epic spells and all the other wonderfully overpowered spells...nerfing 2 of 200 is not that big a deal especially when most don't even bother with them.

More than two have been altered, so you know.

Simeron wrote:

Let's try this then...seeing how time is supposed to be 1 to 1...casters don't get to get their spells back for 8 hours REAL TIME....yeah...that'll happen...snort.

Huh? I truly don't get that. Time is not supposed to be 1:1, that's only for keeping track of things that happen in game. Now you are just grasping at straws. Seriously, I like you but you are starting to sound like a child that is whining because it can't ride the penny pony ride anymore.

Naivatkal wrote:

Simeron wrote:

Let's try this then...seeing how time is supposed to be 1 to 1...casters don't get to get their spells back for 8 hours REAL TIME....yeah...that'll happen...snort.

Huh? I truly don't get that. Time is not supposed to be 1:1, that's only for keeping track of things that happen in game. Now you are just grasping at straws. Seriously, I like you but you are starting to sound like a child that is whining because it can't ride the penny pony ride anymore.

I believe Tormak (and others) stated time passes on a 1 to 1 ratio. This would be for things like aging, having babies and the like in Roleplay.

Thats what Naivy just said. He also refuted Simeron's claim that rest mechanics should also be a 1:1 ratio with time, which is lul.

Why are people still complaining? It happened, get over it. Like others have said, if you're playing and SD just for HiPS, then you've no real reason to be playing that class.

These arguments have gotten incredibly ridiculous and way out of control. Yes ,there are gimps to several classes that people like, but people GET OVER IT.

The whole point of picking and playing a class, is to actually PLAY the class, not just grab it, get the good perks from it, spam them to be a unbeatable force, rinse, repeat with another character. For the freaking love of all that's holy, stop these silly arguments.

DMs please, please, PLEASE lock this. If anyone has anything actual to contribute or ask/need clarification from DMs, PLEASE do it over PMs. I'm so fricking tired of seeing entire threads about people bitching and whining about losing "the only thing that made the class worth playing," and people having arguments about stupid little things like this. TAKE IT TO PMS.

Time is whanever DMs say it is, and we tend to say speed of plot with most plots moving 1:1. Game mechanics cannot follow that ratio but shouldn't be made to anyway. To make the argument that you are making is extremely transparent, and I feel I should warn you that you are well beyond the limits of "trying too hard". Use your common sense and don't buy into that fool notion that common sense isn't common, which is just something people who never want to be wrong about anything say.

Just to throw in my cent. At least its possible to actually fight shadow dancers now as a warrior. I defeated one in the arena the other day. Without the cooldown, shadow dancers could just HIPs the crud out of you and you'd be lucky to even get a single hit in. I have played a shadow dancer myself so I know both sides. There are ways to defeat HIPs but now thats less of a problem. I'm glad this has happened because I find fighting shadow dancers incredibly annoying. Hopefully this will encourage more working together and role play.

This is supposed to be an RP server isn't it? So much of what I'm seeing seems to be centered on powerbuilding....or just 'building properly'. What happened to the CHARACTER. People seem to need to refocus on what their toon can DO now, in order to survive against PvE. I don't know many non-SD builds that can't just stroll through the various bosses solo, and I don't know many SD builds that can do it either. Simeron has a good point with the Assassins, and Rogues. Going past 6 SD just doesn't make sense if you want to be able to 'survive'. Even Suney said 20 levels of SD is useless. I'd say anything more than 6 is useless. I've spent A LLLOOOOOOOOT of time in the Academy, probably many of you know why, I've seen A LLOOOOOT of SD's come through there, I've TAUGHT many of you!! And don't even TRY to deny it when I say, fully 85% of you stop at 6th level...... >.> The very rare few take the 7th level....so they can get access to the shop, which returns us to the building aspect, not the RP. The remaining percentage go to level 10, and that's when I start to see more character/RP, but still, there is that little bit of building, because at level 10, they get access to more ....slightly better....gear. Slightly better. But, in the end, at that point, its still, more often than not, about the gear....and 'powering' your toon. I'm not even going get into all you SD's that come crying to me at PRECISELY level 4 SD for....waaaait for it.....ya, you know :S You're looking for the next 'ability' for your toon.
I'm not saying ALL OF YOU DO IT, I can only speak for the average. I've had A LOT of fantastic RP sessions with a lot of great people *You know who you are, because I make a point of telling you*, but in the end, a large percentage of SD's are only going for hips anyway, and the gear...again, they're building their toon, and designing the RP to justify it, not the other way around.

Now, even more so, they have to focus on their build before the character, or they will end up at the bottom of the pile with no epic gear, and empty pockets because they just can't compare to rolling PvE monsters that are the dev crit'ers, eipc spells, or aura wielding KC's.....etc. I've heard a lot of people say how hard the spires is now, I went through there with a hand full of War Knights....and very little in the way of a buffer....and we SPANKED it. I couldn't keep up with many of my party because the giants were dying to fast. Not a single SD among us, just the standard F/WM/R type...and yes, my War Knight is one of those standard builds, because its POWERFUL, and I know it, but that's the point isn't it?

Powergaming? Or at least the fact that it becomes more encouraged in cases like this. I'm not saying the nerf is wrong, I know it will discourage people from what this server is supposed to be about though....

ROLEPLAYING....not ROLL playing...

To be able to hips just once is extremely powerful. My god you guys have to wait 6 seconds. Thats still godly.

I do think its unfair they get nerfed again like that though. Maybe make hips available at 3 or 4 instead of 6.

Also true seeing is mainly seeing invis and +10 spot right? Thats not too powerful.

That being said, there is always a class/build to counter another.

CratzBlade113 wrote:

Why are people still complaining? It happened, get over it. Like others have said, if you're playing and SD just for HiPS, then you've no real reason to be playing that class.

These arguments have gotten incredibly ridiculous and way out of control. Yes ,there are gimps to several classes that people like, but people GET OVER IT.

The whole point of picking and playing a class, is to actually PLAY the class, not just grab it, get the good perks from it, spam them to be a unbeatable force, rinse, repeat with another character. For the freaking love of all that's holy, stop these silly arguments.

DMs please, please, PLEASE lock this. If anyone has anything actual to contribute or ask/need clarification from DMs, PLEASE do it over PMs. I'm so fricking tired of seeing entire threads about people bitching and whining about losing "the only thing that made the class worth playing," and people having arguments about stupid little things like this. TAKE IT TO PMS.

You need to relax. That is the whole point of a forum is to discuss things like this. If you dont like it, then dont click on it

HIPS nerf

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