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Tertsökkeldsdönner
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 Posted: Thu, May 20 2010, 11:19 AM |
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Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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I think problem here is that someone wants to get immunities for everything so there is no weak link in PvP. One can get high AC from items, tumble, dex.. you name it.. Crit, Sneak, Paralyze immunities from PM, high elemental damage resistances from spells, Necromancy immunity from Shadow Shield, Spell Resistance from (that) spell, or being drow or deep gnome.. etc etc.. now problem is there is still Implosion in the way...
I have easy solution! Make items with unlimited uses, which turns PC into Plot. No more whining from people who gets killed with one hit, one spell or one ability.. Daaa....
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IronAngel
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Posted: Thu, May 20 2010, 13:38 PM |
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Why do people always go off-topic, and attack other people or their motives instead of the arguments presented and those only? I don't care about Implosion and Death Ward and whatever you do to eachother in your little sandbox fairyland. I only care about people selling one dubious interpretation as a done deal. You assume that Death Ward simply should not affect Implosion and that it's correctly applied. You cannot know for certain. It's simply an interpretation the NWN designers chose to make, no more correct than the opposite. Quote: The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects.
This spell doesn’t remove negative levels that the subject has already gained, nor does it affect the saving throw necessary 24 hours after gaining a negative level.
Death ward does not protect against other sorts of attacks even if those attacks might be lethal.
Quote:
You create a destructive resonance in a corporeal creature’s body. For each round you concentrate, you cause one creature to collapse in on itself, killing it. (This effect, being instantaneous, cannot be dispelled.)
You can target a particular creature only once with each casting of the spell.
Implosion has no effect on creatures in gaseous form or on incorporeal creatures.
I'm not sure how you can make such far-reaching and absolute conclusions from this very limited information. In fact, I googled around and it seems that WotC customer support has answered the question both ways. Personally, I'm inclined to agree: it protects you from [Death] spells and similar effects that prevent Raise Dead. I wouldn't go as far as speculate about souls and life-force, because the spell descriptions don't give such detail. You're enterint guess territory there. Either way, even if the general consensus is probably correct, it's in no way foolproof so that ought to be noted. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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ainjyll
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Posted: Thu, May 20 2010, 15:17 PM |
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Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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I believe the main point of contention is that Death Ward protects against "all death spells [and] magical death effects" and Implosion is definitely a magical spell and definitely kills, but is it a death spell and is the crushing force it applies to one a "magical death effect"?
_________________  "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, May 20 2010, 15:29 PM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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ainjyll wrote: I believe the main point of contention is that Death Ward protects against "all death spells [and] magical death effects" and Implosion is definitely a magical spell and definitely kills, but is it a death spell and is the crushing force it applies to one a "magical death effect"? I'd still hold that the 'magical death effect' is a poorly written addendum that shouldn't be there at all. It seems a reasonable point of contention, broken into two groups - 1) It's a fortitude save or die spell, making it a magic death effect. 2) It's the imploding that kills you, not so much a death effect as a by product of changing shape rapidly. The former would imply that spells such as Disintegrate, Cloudkill and Weird should also be protected by Death Ward, whilst the latter basically leaves the list of protected spells at the Death sub-type of spells. The creators of NWN seem to have gone for the latter definition ... unless it's something that causes you to simply die, Death Ward will not protect you. If there is a physical process killing you (aneurysm from fright, poison, turned into a pillar of salt, crushed into a small ball etc.) it sn't protected by this spell. Which I think is reasonable, since it's how I interpret the spell also.
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Jyro X
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Posted: Thu, May 20 2010, 15:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Location: North Carolina (EST/GMT -5)
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Indeed Yurell. Death Ward is too easily obtained and lasts entirely too long to make someone immune to every single death effect out there.
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DolphinRacer
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Posted: Thu, May 20 2010, 16:14 PM |
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Joined: 01 May 2009
Location: GMT-8 Bangor, Washington
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Implosion is the magical equivalent of crushing someone like a beer can with lots of important juices flying everywhere.
Death magic is the equivalent of drinking all the beer in said can but leaving the can intact.
Death Ward seals the can so it cannot be opened and drunk from, but doesn't make it impervious to crushing.
And Phantasmal Killer is when someone tells you that your beer is actually poisoned rat piss and you honestly believe them and the shock kills you.
Pretty simple. Now I want a beer though.
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Kira "Penny" Sigers
Better than Boulderdash!
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MadrikVale
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Posted: Thu, May 20 2010, 16:18 PM |
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Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: Evanston, Wyoming
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DolphinRacer wrote: Implosion is the magical equivalent of crushing someone like a beer can with lots of important juices flying everywhere.
Death magic is the equivalent of drinking all the beer in said can but leaving the can intact. Or a Yoohoo! can.
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DolphinRacer
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Posted: Thu, May 20 2010, 16:24 PM |
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Joined: 01 May 2009
Location: GMT-8 Bangor, Washington
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By the way not arguing this is absolute, that's just how I think of it and it helps me reconcile it, you can think of it however you want.
_________________
Sir Taelar Ardelyn of Wiltun
Winner of the Razor Tongued Award 2015!
Kira "Penny" Sigers
Better than Boulderdash!
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IronAngel
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Posted: Thu, May 20 2010, 17:45 PM |
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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"Magical death effect" probably means stuff like PM touch and bodak gaze. But it's fair to say that Implosion is magical and its effect is death, so it's a magical death effect. I don't think that's probably the intention, but it's a reasonable conclusion to make.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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762
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Posted: Thu, May 20 2010, 18:07 PM |
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida
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Whatever its effect, Implosion doesn't have the Death descriptor. I think that's pretty conclusive myself.
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Gurth Balmor (retired)
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IronAngel
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Posted: Thu, May 20 2010, 18:23 PM |
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Far from it. First of all, Death Ward description makes no mention of the [Death] descriptor. And even if you interpret "death spells" to mean that, there is still the additional "magical death effects" clause that is obviously something else than spells with the [Death] descriptor.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Grymia
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Posted: Thu, May 20 2010, 18:47 PM |
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Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
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I have to agree more with 762. Death Ward was a spell intended to protect against death effects like Slay Living and Finger of Death, NOT raw effects that just kill through other means *like physically crushing you*
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IronAngel
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Posted: Thu, May 20 2010, 19:18 PM |
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Personally, I agree with the intention of the spell but not with your analysis of differet killing spells. There's no "just killing." It always has a cause. You can say it snuffs out lifeforce or tears out your soul, but 1) that doesn't mean anything concrete and 2) the spell descriptions don't actually state that. Finger of Death kills you because it causes death, and Implosion kills you because it causes death. Both have some intermediary cause working for them, whether it's the shutting down of organs or the getting sucked into yourself. I find it unconvincing to draw the distinction here, claiming that Implosion isn't included because it's not direct. It's just as direct as any other instant death spell, because there's no rolls apart from the save. I think you're putting slightly too much into the spell descriptions that isn't there, even if I probably agree that it's correct Implosion isn't affected.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Grymia
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Posted: Thu, May 20 2010, 19:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
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I agree, Deathward's a mild misnomer and might have been worded better... but still. That's probably where most of this all is hanging up.
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Halecta
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Posted: Thu, May 20 2010, 22:11 PM |
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Joined: 10 Jul 2008
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Or maybe change implosion to do 9999 magic damage on a failed save?
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Wyjyn
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Posted: Thu, May 20 2010, 23:14 PM |
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Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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I actually think Iron may have a point now, if it is just raw physical damage why not have a damage roll as Halecta suggests? The best argument is probably simple: They wanted a cool spell to give to clerics and really were not considering lore heavily. Making it death magic seems a bit awkward when a cleric of Tyr can potentially use it, so they went with "it just crushes them".
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Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, May 20 2010, 23:19 PM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Wyjyn wrote: The best argument is probably simple: They wanted a cool spell to give to clerics and really were not considering lore heavily. Making it death magic seems a bit awkward when a cleric of Tyr can potentially use it, so they went with "it just crushes them". I fail to see how that's the best argument at all - in what way were they not considering lore? It does seem reasonable to presume they wanted a 'white' instant-kill spell to correspond the the Death ones.
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يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Wyjyn
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Posted: Thu, May 20 2010, 23:42 PM |
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Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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They were not sitting around and thinking about the things you guys are. They wanted a cool spell for clerics and hence created a fort or die spell, which they called implosion and claimed it crushes them so that even the goody clerics can comfortably use it. I doubt they even considered whether it was to be constituted as death magic or not.
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Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.
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762
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Posted: Thu, May 20 2010, 23:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida
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Pretty much. People are thinking about this crap way too hard.
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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)
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Yurell
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Posted: Fri, May 21 2010, 0:08 AM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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762 wrote: Pretty much. People are thinking about this crap way too hard. Well, we need to to determine what makes the best sense in the setting.
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يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Gunz
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Posted: Fri, May 21 2010, 0:23 AM |
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Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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Well of course it's all interpretation and not absolute. That's pretty obvious since I'm not the one making the rules here. I'm simply presenting my interpretation as to why it is the way it is and why I believe the way things are now are fine. I personally don't believe Death Ward should protect against Implosion.
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762
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Posted: Fri, May 21 2010, 2:04 AM |
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida
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Yurell wrote: 762 wrote: Pretty much. People are thinking about this crap way too hard. Well, we need to to determine what makes the best sense in the setting. Except this has been beaten to death for years.
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Gurth Balmor (retired)
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, May 21 2010, 3:28 AM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Go in game. Does Death Ward stop it? No?
Not "Death" magic. Solved.
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Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Dieu_Le_Fera
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Posted: Fri, May 21 2010, 7:18 AM |
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Joined: 29 Jun 2009
Location: Philadelphia
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Quote: Go in game. Does Death Ward stop it? No?
Not "Death" magic. Solved.
works for me. _________________  "It is by the holy beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning, it is by Java alone that I set my mind in motion."
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Sat, May 22 2010, 14:42 PM |
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Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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yup..if it aint broke...dont fix it
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Galenson
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Posted: Sat, May 22 2010, 14:45 PM |
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Joined: 26 May 2006
Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
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Good... coz I would be breaking whoever "fixed it" if that was the case.
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Plays:
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Selmak
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Posted: Wed, May 26 2010, 18:22 PM |
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Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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Or you can try stuffing your two-handed sword in their gub while they're casting, that'll work as a ward against Implosion.  Actually, assuming that your average implosion spell isn't capable of generating the force of a black hole or neutron star, a body crushed by Implosion wouldn't stay crushed for very long because right after being imploded it would probably explode when the outside pressure is suddenly removed.
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Yurell
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Posted: Wed, May 26 2010, 23:56 PM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Selmak wrote: Or you can try stuffing your two-handed sword in their gub while they're casting, that'll work as a ward against Implosion. Actually, assuming that your average implosion spell isn't capable of generating the force of a black hole or neutron star, a body crushed by Implosion wouldn't stay crushed for very long because right after being imploded it would probably explode when the outside pressure is suddenly removed. Funnily enough, a friend and I were discussing exactly that. The body has too much water in it to stay crushed, most likely, so depending on how violently you're crushed it should probably be followed by a steam explosion.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Wed, May 26 2010, 23:58 PM |
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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Like Doctor.Manhattan when he blows people up? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27tGI33g4kg
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, May 27 2010, 0:21 AM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Well, treating a human having a volume of half a cubic metre (not such a bad assumption) and being 100% water (a bad assumption), crushing us down to half our size would take roughly a GPa of pressure.
Of course, it takes comparatively little effort to crush a human-shaped human volume to a human-volumed sphere. And let's face it, humans are mostly squishy, so getting us down to half our volume shouldn't be too much of a problem ... so GPa is by far the upper bound.
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يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
Last edited by Yurell on Thu, May 27 2010, 0:35 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Leggomi Eggolas
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Posted: Thu, May 27 2010, 0:30 AM |
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Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Location: Oregon ('OR-ə-gən') [-8 GMT]
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Yurell wrote: Well, treating a human having a volume of half a cubic metre (not such a bad assumption) and being 100% water (a bad assumption), crushing us down to half our size would take roughly a GPa of pressure. This means pressure is increased by a factor of E4, volume decreased by half, so using PV=nkT (or = NRT if you're a chemist  ) we have a rough increase in temperature of about E4 times, presuming it happens rapidly enough that no heat is lost ... this is just a approximation, mind, I've not done enough thermodynamics to estimate otherwise The far worse assumption to make is the one where we should suppose that the ideal gas law holds true for a liquid. _________________ 
Those trees won't burn themselves down. (by Maryn)
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, May 27 2010, 0:34 AM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Yeah, I was thinking about that in the shower and facepalmed, but apparently I was too late to edit And I've no intention of sitting here all day trying to figure out the partial derivatives, so I'll just quietly go and bang my head on a wall. *Bangs wall* Bad Yurell!
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Wyjyn
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Posted: Thu, May 27 2010, 8:03 AM |
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Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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With the steam, arent you assuming that heat = more kinetic energy? My view is that in this setting cold is something you can literally 'have', rather than a method of describing what is ultimately a lack of kinetic energy. Of course this brings up certain paradoxes, such as the manner in which heat is generated by friction in FR. Regardless, my point is that crushing something in FR may not necessarily increase the heat by lowering the volume of space available for already existant kinetic energy.
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Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, May 27 2010, 8:07 AM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Wyjyn wrote: With the steam, arent you assuming that heat = more kinetic energy? My view is that in this setting cold is something you can literally 'have', rather than a method of describing what is ultimately a lack of kinetic energy. Of course this brings up certain paradoxes, such as the manner in which heat is generated by friction in FR. Regardless, my point is that crushing something in FR may not necessarily increase the heat by lowering the volume of space available for already existant kinetic energy. I'm assuming normal physical laws apply with magic as the exception. If the normal laws of physics didn't apply, I'd find it very difficult to believe that we have living creatures at all. If real-life physics didn't work, there'd be no point to discussing anything since 'magic did it' would be the only explanation.
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يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Wyjyn
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Posted: Thu, May 27 2010, 8:26 AM |
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Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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Yurell wrote: Wyjyn wrote: With the steam, arent you assuming that heat = more kinetic energy? My view is that in this setting cold is something you can literally 'have', rather than a method of describing what is ultimately a lack of kinetic energy. Of course this brings up certain paradoxes, such as the manner in which heat is generated by friction in FR. Regardless, my point is that crushing something in FR may not necessarily increase the heat by lowering the volume of space available for already existant kinetic energy. I'm assuming normal physical laws apply with magic as the exception. If the normal laws of physics didn't apply, I'd find it very difficult to believe that we have living creatures at all. If real-life physics didn't work, there'd be no point to discussing anything since 'magic did it' would be the only explanation. I dont assume that at all, I presume that there is an underlying war of sorts between science ala Gond and magic ala Mystra. I presume that these forces literally shape Toril, and that if Gond was more powerful and Mystra less then maybe what you are saying would be true or more true. As qirlan, he wouldnt view casting a fire spell as increasing kinetic energy or entropy so much as drawing the fire elemental plane closer to Faerun in a specific manner. I think that is a bit more complex than just saying 'magic did it', its just not modern science either. I suppose I think that this statement is a statement of someone who worships Gond: Quote: I'm assuming normal physical laws apply with magic as the exception. An elven mage in particular might think: Quote: I'm assuming normal magical laws apply with physics as the exception.
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Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, May 27 2010, 11:40 AM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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So compressing a gas to cause it to heat up is the fire plane? If so, it doesn't contradict anything I said, so long as the effect is the same. So long as the effects work the same way, it doesn't matter whether it's magic or science - the two would be indistinguishable, apart from the fact planer anchor and other spells would really screw around with people (e.g. how would your metabolism work if the plane of fire can't get to you? Would you freeze to death?).
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يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Wyjyn
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Posted: Thu, May 27 2010, 11:45 AM |
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Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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No I meant compressing a gas in FR may not necessarily cause it to heat up, at all. This is because you make the assumption that heat is kinetic energy, whereas in FR its actually related to a plane and has its own essence I guess. It may possibly still be kinetic energy to a degree as well, though. Ala its effects are part our world, part magic. Gond vs mystra.
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Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, May 27 2010, 12:00 PM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Wyjyn wrote: No I meant compressing a gas in FR may not necessarily cause it to heat up, at all. This is because you make the assumption that heat is kinetic energy, whereas in FR its actually related to a plane and has its own essence I guess. It may possibly still be kinetic energy to a degree as well, though. Ala its effects are part our world, part magic. Gond vs mystra. Here's the thing though - if the laws of physics / magic in FR don't have the same effect they do in real life, everything dies. You couldn't have humans in a universe that wasn't tailored very specifically. Let's give an example - if air doesn't heat up as it is compressed, and consequently doesn't cool down as its expanded, the planet's surface would probably freeze over - cold air from the stratosphere falls, and would heat up via compression. Instead, it is forced to heat up by convection and radiation, cooling the lower atmosphere. Meanwhile in the stratoshpere, air from lower altitudes rises and doesn't cool, rising the temperature of the stratosphere ... which in turn radiates that heat as a blackbody, half of which goes out into space, cooling the planet as a whole (yes I know I've simplified the problem by modelling the atmosphere simply as two layers, I'm not a climate scientist ). Ergo, gas either heats up as it compresses, or the planes are doing a lot of work trying to keep the atmosphere at the precise correct temperatures. I'd imagine other people would be able to come up with other problems for the air not heating up as it's compressed (including such things as the air having less resistance to compression on the large scale). BTW, I don't consider heat to be specifically kinetic energy, but the spontaneous flow of energy from one system to another caused by a difference in their respective temperatures.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Wyjyn
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Posted: Thu, May 27 2010, 13:17 PM |
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Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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lol perhaps. Honestly, I am not even sure Toril is really round/spherical..just something to think on. Maybe Iron would know better, though. I did read that Toril was a 'planet', but never specifically that it was spherical.
I know what you are saying, but a different balance could be formed in a universe without atoms, or any particles that make up matter. Also, to my knowledge, our universe doesnt have unlimited elemental planes connected to it whereas Toril does. Honestly, who knows what the hell is going on in Toril, which makes it great to roleplay in imo. I am just saying that I wouldnt necessarily say that compressing something, particularly with magic, would increase its heat/pressure.
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Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Thu, May 27 2010, 14:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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I'm a firm believer of the "Disk on three elephants riding on top of the great turtle" theory.
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I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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AlphaWaves
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Posted: Thu, May 27 2010, 14:14 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Location: I'm pretty lost but I don't wanna be found.
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Is that three just to make it different from the Discworld's own Berilia, Tubul, Great T'Phon and Jerakeen?
_________________ "The householder's disdain for the vagabond hides a hint of jealousy."
~ A hin proverb
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Thu, May 27 2010, 18:53 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Toril is round, afaik.
I'm not getting into the other pointless argument. The spell says you are imploded, so that's what it does. no need to go into steam power and superconductors.
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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Wyjyn
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Posted: Thu, May 27 2010, 19:35 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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TormakSaber wrote: Toril is round, afaik.
I'm not getting into the other pointless argument. The spell says you are imploded, so that's what it does. no need to go into steam power and superconductors. Actually, the argument is awesome. I would prefer to have similiar In Character, but OOC is fun too:D. There is some pretty solid knowledge flying around, truly.
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Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.
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AlphaWaves
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Posted: Thu, May 27 2010, 19:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Location: I'm pretty lost but I don't wanna be found.
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It would only be argument for the joy of argument, sadly.
_________________ "The householder's disdain for the vagabond hides a hint of jealousy."
~ A hin proverb
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Quarter_From_Nothing
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Posted: Thu, May 27 2010, 21:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Location: Finland (GMT +2)
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PLease lock the topic already. We've heard it all now.
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, May 27 2010, 23:45 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Okay, I'll take it into PMs with Wyjyn if you prefer, although it is the type of discussion that could use input from others, since it's the establishment of exactly what natural law is on Toril. Quarter_From_Nothing wrote: PLease lock the topic already. We've heard it all now. Not OP, don't call for locks.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Gunz
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Posted: Fri, May 28 2010, 0:19 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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I suck at math, but I know a pretty significant amount about "natural sciences" so I'm finding it kind of interesting watching the back and forth myself. ::shrugs:: Hell, it's even slightly funny when you think about how silly it is to argue points about a fake world, but hey, that's what we do! We're silly people playing in a silly fake world because it's f'ing fun!
For me, about the world (Toril) being round, because FR is such a huge rip off of the real world, I would say it's round and they just kinda don't touch the subject so much because of how it was in our world way back when. Some thought the world flat, others thought it round.
Also, I know that communication between Maztica and Faerûn are open, but it's something that happened not so long ago. Kinda like after the Conquistadors made their way to America. But the travel of the massive Pacific Ocean, from Asia to America, didn't happen till much later which continued to fuel the school of thought that perhaps the world is flat. I have never heard any stories on FR where someone(s) traveled the distance of Kara-Tur to Maztica. I may be wrong. That, again, would rightly fuel the school of thought that Toril is flat.
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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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Yurell
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Posted: Fri, May 28 2010, 1:18 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Even the Ancients, and most of the educated people in the Medieval world, knew that the world was round and knew to reasonable precision its size ... I'd presume the same is true for Faerunians. That's why Columbus found it so hard to get funding - not because everyone knew the world was flat, but because everyone knew it was a hell of a lot bigger than he thought it was. He got very lucky that there was a continent between Europe and Asia.
It's just some trig that they'd need, and they'd probably have the right maths judging by their navy and buildings.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Gunz
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Posted: Fri, May 28 2010, 2:26 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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They theorized that the world was round, they didn't know. They couldn't have known. When you only have theory to back up a claim, it leaves a lot of room for people to take other positions on the subject. There's magic in the FR world though, which would probably allow more insight. Because of that, I'm sure most people know the Toril is round. But, that still doesn't mean there isn't a large amount of people who believe it flat. Hell, even with evidence up the yoohoo that we have today, there are some people who -still- insist the world is flat.
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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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Yurell
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Posted: Fri, May 28 2010, 2:51 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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They knew that at every point tested the Earth had the exact same radius of curvature. So they were either standing on a sphere, or the part of the Earth they were standing on was spherical and after that it got weird - and since they had a quarter of the Earth's circumference to play with by the end (their numbers agreed with everyone's from China to Europe), it's a reasonable extrapolation. Perhaps a modern example - we know the ratio of deuterium to hydrogen in the Earth's oceans (0.0154%, or 0.0308% by mass) ... this isn't a hypothesis. We know this ... but we didn't go out and test every single atom of hydrogen in search for deuterium, instead we took a representative sample.
The hypothesis that the world was round (I'm loathed to use the word 'theory') was based on a number of observations, and that the world was round was the simplest explanation for these. Perhaps the best piece of evidence was the Earth's shadow on the moon during a lunar eclipse - they could see that 2D projection of the Earth was a circle.
The people who disagree with the fact that the Earth is round are at best uneducated, at worst idiots - most likely the simply do not understand or, for reasons beyond my comprehension, are playing Devil's Advocate just for the hell of it.
Even if, on Toril, the masses believe that it's flat, doesn't change the point of the argument about whether it is flat or not. Any mathematician in Toril could deduce that it's flat, and I do believe that there is travel between the continents. Beyond this, I believe Word of God says it's a planet anyway (especially in Spelljammer), so the point is mute.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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