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Sound is right. Partying has purely OOC limitations put on it by the server mechanics that are nigh impossible to deal with ICly. Calling that "metagaming" is pretty absurd.

And TBH, sometimes....we want XP.

It's not that we lvl 7s or whatever don;'t love RP. But dammit, we want to level up too. So if we boot you because we want XP...it's not that we DON'T want RP. I hate hearing that.

And honestly, even if I got 1xp a kill with you there, I'd /find/ a reason to split off and find a party my own level. I hate grinding as it is, RP makes it barely tolerable, but grinding and having to do it four to five times as long for the same results? I'd rather shoot myself. Even RP doesn't make up for that.

AxlLeigh wrote:

I hate grinding as it is, RP makes it barely tolerable, but grinding and having to do it four to five times as long for the same results? I'd rather shoot myself. Even RP doesn't make up for that.

Make that 30 - 40 times as long.

The average Xp from a group of your level is about 30 - 40.

Most of the time they move on once it sinks below that because "The xp sucks"

762 wrote:

Sound is right. Partying has purely OOC limitations put on it by the server mechanics that are nigh impossible to deal with ICly. Calling that "metagaming" is pretty absurd.

Wut? I don't think she said anything about that, and I'm not sure what these mechanics are that somebody called metagaming. I'm also unsure if that relates to my response to Sound in any way.

Maybe I'm just not connecting the dots to the earlier discussion. :oops:

AxlLeigh wrote:

And TBH, sometimes....we want XP.

It's not that we lvl 7s or whatever don;'t love RP. But dammit, we want to level up too. So if we boot you because we want XP...it's not that we DON'T want RP. I hate hearing that.

And honestly, even if I got 1xp a kill with you there, I'd /find/ a reason to split off and find a party my own level. I hate grinding as it is, RP makes it barely tolerable, but grinding and having to do it four to five times as long for the same results? I'd rather shoot myself. Even RP doesn't make up for that.

You may want XP but you're also on a roleplaying server.

TormakSaber wrote:

You may want XP but you're also on a roleplaying server.

"You seem to good at this for us to learn anything."

What I mean is, you have a max ECL +/-5 that you have to contend with. That's 100% OOC.

I've seen people TRY to deal with it ICly...it's never, ever failed to make me cringe. Hence you get OOC forming of parties.

If you want a hardcore RP server like some of those posting here seem to, you need to take off the 5 level difference.

Or, maybe just let Amia be Amia.

There is nothing at all preventing you from having a 10 man party going through the spires with elvel ranges varying between 15 and 30.

You simply get less XP. But the XP is OOC anyway, much like the level difference, so what does that mater anyway?

The max/min exists because otherwise powerlevelling would run rampant. It is a necessary evil and it's not going away.

BrainSplitter wrote:

There is nothing at all preventing you from having a 10 man party going through the spires with elvel ranges varying between 15 and 30.

You simply get less XP. But the XP is OOC anyway, much like the level difference, so what does that mater anyway?

Less xp by 100%. The xp is why the people are going there, though. For the most part their characters are there for training (well, at least in mine and Axleigh's reasoning) ... and learning more by yourself than from some archmage or swordmaster is stupid, but your characters are granted empirical evidence to its truth.

Ron...that's ridiculous.

Why not just make Amia a social server then, if XP is irrelevant? If you plan on stepping outside of Cordor or Wiltun, it becomes a very harsh reality how much xp you have.

A person with 435,000 xp will annihilate a person with 3000 xp, regardless of tactics, build, gear, and anything else. That has RP consequences most definitely.

So no, XP is not OOC.

TormakSaber wrote:

The max/min exists because otherwise powerlevelling would run rampant. It is a necessary evil and it's not going away.

I understand and agree completely.

But maybe instead of automatically having the XP decrease to 1 whenever you have 1 person over the 5 level threshold or 1 extra character/summon in the party, just have a significant drop off?

There's nothing stopping players from going around in parties greater than 6 or with someone a level higher or lower than the threshold, and certainly if the RP calls for it they should be willing to forgo XP for it, but you have to admit, the system dropping you to 1 XP kinda seems like it's hugely frowned upon, no matter the reasoning.

Perhaps something that significantly, but gradually reduces the XP for each character over the 6 person limit. In the case of a person being over the 5 level threshold, a decrease in XP dictated by the level difference of that PC and the rest of the party. So if you have someone in a party of 4 who is two levels over, yeah they get like 3/5's or less XP, but it's still worth it to keep going, while if a lv 28 tries to babysit some lv 5's, yeah, in that case they all get 1 XP per kill.

I say again, I completely agree and support that the OoC range rule has to be there. But we can, and IMO should, be able make the penalties so they don't so harshly discourage legit RP.

6 Person parties already mow level appropriate (censored) over fast enough that its more of a lack of spawn issue.

Module seems to be at a happy medium for groups of 3-4 personages.

The medium is heavily slanted towards 4 classes, which you require at least one of in your party to effectively level.

I've gone out on hunts with more than six people or with people who were either above or below my character's level by more than 5 and had a wonderful time. Just the other week my rogue got taken to the Abyss at a low level by some maxed characters just so she could deal with the traps. There was no XP gained and no gold gained, but it was fun to do and the RP was good, too.

I will be one of the first to admit that I'm guilty of falling into "the Grind" without even realizing it and often times it's extremely refreshing to have something else to do while out training, hunting, whatever. Under no circumstances should RP ever be shunned, especially not in the face of "getting that next level". That next level isn't going anywhere. It'll still be there in an hour or two or even tomorrow. However, the potential to RP with someone may or may not be there later.

Dead wrote:

This happened alot to me lately. I join the hunting party, people go over my icon and see "temple of evil god".

What's an icon?

Whats a battle?

He means Avatar.

762 wrote:

Ron...that's ridiculous.

Why not just make Amia a social server then, if XP is irrelevant? If you plan on stepping outside of Cordor or Wiltun, it becomes a very harsh reality how much xp you have.

A person with 435,000 xp will annihilate a person with 3000 xp, regardless of tactics, build, gear, and anything else. That has RP consequences most definitely.

So no, XP is not OOC.

Experience Points are 100% OOC. They are, in part, a representation of something that is in fact In Character - but much as your Strength Score, your current amount of Spell Resistance, and your character's Base Attack bonus - are, themselves, Out of Character details that your character neither knows about, nor understands, and as such; should not take into account in character.

Levelling is an out of character action. Going out and hunting isn't. I fail to see why, from a purely In Character perspective, and as such a Roleplaying perspective - you can't hunt with a group of characters beyond your level range or over the alloted limit. The Experience Points you earn (or don't earn) are completely irrelevant to the character itself, as your character is not in character prompted after every kill (that they may not even be involved in) that they have acquired an amount of 'Points' towards learning something new.

Again, I'm often ridiculous. I mean, assuming people can ignore Out of Character completely barring rule-based situations (Such as the 'You must be in party' rule.) is pointless, even on a Roleplay Server. Instead, we get people denying/accepting parties soley upon the Out of Character aspect, despite the fact that in character - the characters have no means of reasoning with such details as their experience point counters.

Again, though. It comes down to OOC Rewards (Experience Points) beyond the scope of your character's actual IC Reasoning, as being more important than actually staying In Character and roleplaying it out.

If your party doesn't work out, that doesn't mean you'll never get Experience Points, afterall. Maybe on a later hunt things will be better mechanically, and on top of that - you might actually have fun roleplaying during the former, rewardless hunt. Assuming roleplay occurs during hunts.

[/pipedream]

Good luck with that one then. That's far more hardcore than any hardcore server I've ever played on.

I strongly disagree that XP is an OOC concept, though. It is a necessary abstraction of an IC learning experience.

If you want to take it so such a hardcore level you could argue that watching how a much higher level fighter cuts down trolls with ease ought to teach you something. But you can't because you have this purely OOC 5 level cap in place.

So your pipe dream of a purely IC adventuring experience will never happen no matter what, as long as you have that.

AlphaWaves wrote:

Dead wrote:

This happened alot to me lately. I join the hunting party, people go over my icon and see "temple of evil god".

What's an icon?

I believe he's referring to the fact that when you mouse over someone in your party it gives their location.

BrainSplitter wrote:

Levelling is an out of character action. Going out and hunting isn't. I fail to see why, from a purely In Character perspective, and as such a Roleplaying perspective - you can't hunt with a group of characters beyond your level range or over the alloted limit. The Experience Points you earn (or don't earn) are completely irrelevant to the character itself, as your character is not in character prompted after every kill (that they may not even be involved in) that they have acquired an amount of 'Points' towards learning something new.

Yes, XP are OOC, and hunting is an IC action but ... what is the purpose of hunting. Some people may hunt for sport, others hunt to train. It's just sad that a master of your craft can't help you train ... time between accessing different spell levels, for example, are perfectly IC, so the earning of experience points are important to represent the amount a character has learned. In short, your character is affected ICly by the experience points, and it's a reasonable conclusion to not want to hunt on an IC level with someone who makes the job so easy you learn nothing. How much better do you get at working a loom when you see an industrial machine weaving instead?

I never thought I would see a player, let alone the leader of a faction often touted as "The best RPers on the server" so vehemently say that roleplaying while fighting is an impossible, far-too-hardcore pipedream.

Nobody said that. And yes, Ron is being ridicilous.

NWN is an action RPG. People play it for the combination of action and RP. Suggesting that the RP aspect is somehow superior to the action and could do without it is ridicilous: the game is supposed to be played with both aspects in mind. If we didn't care about the mechanical action side of the game, we'd do freeform forum RP or something with only a visual representation of our PCs and the environment, not an action game. Trying to argue that XP shouldn't matter on an RP server doesn't only seem smug and holier-than-thou, but also silly and desperately don-quixoteish.

I do not like the 5-level cap, and neither do I think it's necessary. There are plenty of different solutions to it, and I'd maybe even sooner have Tormak's horror scenario than what we have now. But it doesn't need to come to that, you could easily implement smoother limitations and possibly abolish the concept of a party from the calculations altogether. It's not impossible, it's probably not even hard. It may not be the desireable thing to do, but don't paint the status quo as some kind of an inevitable necessity when it's just one solution among many.

The interesting thing I see from people reading my post, is that they seem to believe I'm espouting it as something that should be enforced, or even /done/.

As opposed to the fact it should be an ideal approach taken by most players. Levelling up (much to my chagrin) is a pretty big part of the server culture, due to the percieved need to win, as opposed to enjoying the RP that can follow whether you win or lose. No denying that major part of the server culture, and as such, Experience Points are 'Important'.

I'm merely proclaiming that they shouldn't be the most important. If you need XP? You'll get it later. Hells, you'll possibly get far more through either burning DCs or raw XP rewards given by any DM who spots it. Instead most people seem to pass up an opportunity for a bit of RP, purely because it does not suit the needs of the player which seems to involve "Level 30; Then RP".

Short form; I dream of a world where the Action is there, but players care more about the Role Play. Never going to happen, but I can still dream

BrainSplitter wrote:

Hells, you'll possibly get far more through either burning DCs or raw XP rewards given by any DM who spots it.

I would say that definitely depends upon what timezone you play.

Most DMs keep an eye on the player list we have on the forums, which sorts by area. Seeing a mass of 10 people in one hunting area is weird / suspicious, and quite possibly able to get checked.

However, that's secondary, I'd hope? It's only XP and DCs.

Indeed! The RP goes on, regardless of DM presence or otherwise.

Amen.

TormakSaber wrote:

I never thought I would see a player, let alone the leader of a faction often touted as "The best RPers on the server" so vehemently say that roleplaying while fighting is an impossible, far-too-hardcore pipedream.

Try climbing down from your ill, insulting and falsely accusing high horse sometime, Tormak.

Distorting what other people write, so that you can throw personal jabs at them, is low and beyond the dignity of a DM who is suppose to enforce "good" forum conduct.

I totally disagree with people using the limitations of the game engine/U.I. etc to gain OOC info they use IC. So I suppose the OP in that regard, I further will agree that if two PCs hate each others guts IC this should in no way effect how the OOC relationship between those two players is.
Of course a player may not actually like someone IRL/OOC such is life but if you can not seperate your IC And your OOC that player is clearly on the wrong kind of server.

I will point out a few things worth mentioning which may be relevent. Certain good classes (And certain evil ones iirc) can detect evil (or good) at will or have access to abilities/items that provide this ability. This is not to say that it can't be RPed however lets remember for example that a paladin on discovering a wondering evil priest is not going to enter into discussion with him or give him any benefit of doubt what so ever.
If an evil PC or monster PC is expecting some sort of differental treament from a evil hunting PC (differenetal in that he expects to not be kill on sight to the PC even if NPC of his kind would normally be) who knows or discoverd his evilness this is called metagameing, you are expecting to be give the oppotunity to talk and interect (RP) withsome who would often attack/kill your character if he was an NPC, simply being an evil/monster PC does not give you the right to expect the other player to metagame and give you anything he would not normally given an NPC of the same type.

Of course I am not directly my comments to anyone in particular just those who play evil/monster PCs and expect to be treated different from NPC of their race just because they are PC and want to RP

Strikeclone wrote:

I totally disagree with people using the limitations of the game engine/U.I. etc to gain OOC info they use IC. So I suppose the OP in that regard, I further will agree that if two PCs hate each others guts IC this should in no way effect how the OOC relationship between those two players is.

Except that the example given in the OP isn't one of using UI information IC, it's one of OOC - they were going to use OOC to cause IC to happen, and when additional OOC information was provided by the UI the other person decided that using OOC to cause the IC wasn't a preferable outcome.

The only thing I hate doing is having to tell my minions to run off alone becuase OOCly I'm too high a level to train them.

Instead I resort to training them on what to say and how to act...but not how to fight.

I lead a group thats meant to train how people fight. I still train people how to fight, I just train them on the fundementals, forms and such. Then send them out on their own, because the only way to develop your skills further is to find your own way or doing it, your own way of fighting that you are comfortable with.

Thats kinda real world to. You notice you tend to get shown how to do something in theory, then the only way to learn it better is to practice practice practice, and using someone elses method doesn't always work the best, you generally have to develop your own method, usually being a variation on what you've been shown. In fighting espically, you only learn really how to deal with a dangerous situation, when your put in a dangerous situation. You can spar and train with a partner you know isn't gonna harm you to your hearts content, but the fear, and the possability of dying or being hurt isn't there. When your in danger, then you really learn part what you can't be shown in theory.

Yurell wrote:

Except that the example given in the OP isn't one of using UI information IC, it's one of OOC - they were going to use OOC to cause IC to happen, and when additional OOC information was provided by the UI the other person decided that using OOC to cause the IC wasn't a preferable outcome.

Well what ever the specific cause of the metagaming I think what I said in my reply made it pretty clear I am against metagaming...thats all I was saying I wasn't refering directly to the OP specific example.

TormakSaber wrote:

I never thought I would see a player, let alone the leader of a faction often touted as "The best RPers on the server" so vehemently say that roleplaying while fighting is an impossible, far-too-hardcore pipedream.

Uh huh. Thanks for taking me way out of context, yet again.

BrainSplitter wrote:

Instead most people seem to pass up an opportunity for a bit of RP, purely because it does not suit the needs of the player which seems to involve "Level 30; Then RP".

Unfortunately, this seems the main mentality of the server. I for one enjoy my low levels, and think the most important RP happens then! I mean your suppose to develop into a great hero/villain. Not show up in Cordor in rags one day, then powerlevel to 30 and be one of the most powerful people on the island...

ShortSlasher wrote:

Unfortunately, this seems the main mentality of the server. I for one enjoy my low levels, and think the most important RP happens then! I mean your suppose to develop into a great hero/villain. Not show up in Cordor in rags one day, then powerlevel to 30 and be one of the most powerful people on the island...

Well Said.

I wouldn't say I enjoyed my lower levels, being I spent them getting beaten every other day.

Depends how enjoyable your experience was at low levels.

Mine was horrid and I was all too happy to reach a point where not every single person I came across could wallop me.

I love most of my lowbie experiences. Mostly because I enjoy the challenge of playing a 'rising' adventurer trying to stake out his own claim... But whom knows (Due to it being an obvious fact) That he can't step on toes. Fun little challenge and trickiness.

I like low levels better, myself. Everything's slower-paced and the monsters are more mundane.

Which only strengthens my dislike for the 5-level cap. I can't have a satisfactory adventure with my PC's buddies because they're too high level, or vice versa. And yes, I can adventure with them. But this is where I think counter-arguments are ridicilous: it's undeniably only half the gaming experience, considering NWN is both RP and action. If the other half of the formula is moot, it's not the ideal state of affairs.

My idea is that you'd get XP based on your own level, not from too high or level spawns. There would be no parties needed, you simply got XP for being in the vicinity (under the assumption that you'd take part; following parties in stealth would obviously be an exploit). So what if a high-level nannied you forsaking his own XP? I've never understood why that'd be an OMG terrible consequence, even if some people maintain that it would. If the DMs witnessed people just sitting back and letting their epic buddies slaughter everything, they could just as well dock some XP. No more difficult a rule to enforce than what others we have.

Not to mention you could actually go adventuring with your squire and he could learn from their knight (or mage with apprentice, etc). It always bugged me that the level cap annoyingly got in the way of that, so that you would only very seldom do this.

For every 1 well played master and squire there would be five "drink this invis pot and sit way back while me and my 3 buddies kill Abyss stuff with you at level 2".

Sadly we can use that for almost every freedom given to players, but I think it would be still worth it and people just need to get smacked on their fingers -very- -very- harshly if it is ever seen by a DM.

Powerlevelling lowbies is one of the basic tenets of an MMO and there's no way it should be made even remotelypossible by lifting the elvel restriction.

I'm...pretty solidly with 762 on this one. Sorry, Tormak, if I wanted 100% RP...I'd go to a social server, where levels DON'T matter. The reality is that on Amia, they do. If my lvl 2 spouts off to Gurth...she is going to die. So, she needs to level up so she can talk smack in her big girl pants. (not that lvls have /ever/ stopped my girls, I'm pretty sure my self-rebuilt Katsumi was like...lvl 12 when she decided to get lippy.)

Yes, RP has its place. 100%, absolutely, yes. It's the most important thing here. It is not, however, the /only/ important thing here.

Thats wildly contradictory. You say remove the party member cap, all of you, to make it more IC and then encourage the DM's to impose OOC rules on folks out of range of each other who level by sitting under invisibility.

You do realise that a Level 30 in the abyss with a level 3 nets that level 3 53xp a kill. . .or that level 3 in spires does the same thing, or that level 3 in Yuan-ti. In that case you may aswell just make everyone level 15 when they create a character because it'll be around two hours of grinding to get everyone to that level.

The only way I'd agree to this is if the xp is capped to 10xp if the party is out of Range 5+ levels and Gold drop is capped to ten aswell and loot drops don't happen.

A person only learning so much watching and not doing afterall, and the epic doesn't learn much babysitting the newb.

Theres a reason combat veterans are a more valuable commodity to a Military than green fodder.

I never said to remove the cap. I understand the reason it exists.

I just don't indulge in the fantasy that it's there for an IC reason and should (or even could) be dealt with ICly.

I wasn't referring to you 762.

Anway the only workable solution, in my educated powerlevelling, character whoring opinion, is the one I suggested. And its not even a good solution.

BrainSplitter wrote:

The interesting thing I see from people reading my post, is that they seem to believe I'm espouting it as something that should be enforced, or even /done/.

As opposed to the fact it should be an ideal approach taken by most players. Levelling up (much to my chagrin) is a pretty big part of the server culture, due to the percieved need to win, as opposed to enjoying the RP that can follow whether you win or lose. No denying that major part of the server culture, and as such, Experience Points are 'Important'.

I'm merely proclaiming that they shouldn't be the most important. If you need XP? You'll get it later. Hells, you'll possibly get far more through either burning DCs or raw XP rewards given by any DM who spots it. Instead most people seem to pass up an opportunity for a bit of RP, purely because it does not suit the needs of the player which seems to involve "Level 30; Then RP".

Short form; I dream of a world where the Action is there, but players care more about the Role Play. Never going to happen, but I can still dream

That is a perfect...

...utopia, Ron. Sorry.

You know that not all DMs give XP during events and if they do, it will never be XP enough to kick that player at least one level above his current level.

Ever since I started self-rebuilding Rizzen as a monk, I RPed with different players he learning the basics and even though nudging people at the DM channel specifying that "Hey, RPing learning this and that", a DM was watching.

You can argue that perhaps the DM was busy, and I understand, really. You could argue that I could take screenshots, and I did, but posted on the forums as part of text. I also extend the learning RP to texts at the forums and... well... Makes me wonder if I am a horrible RPer, or hated by the DMs, or just really out of luck for the past... lots of weeks.

I only got levels and actually learned some "non-lethal" techniques grinding, which is done alone more often than I wanted because all the times I was on as Rizzen to hunt, there was no-one in UD-B and the few players in my range were in an off timezone, or just prefering to RP with their favorite PCs (which, obviously, I cannot blame them for).

Lack of PCs to RP/hunt (the two-three I have been RPing every once in a while are, of course, not counted as 'lack of PCs') with is what has been making me lose interest on Amia. It also has been an increasing frustration and it does not seem it will change any time soon. It did not in the past one or two months.

Not that it seems to matter, anyway.

I imagine said DM probably gave you DCs for the RP if it was worthwhile.

Last I checked, Dream Coins have a "Trade for XP / Gold" option, which basically says "Here, we'd give you XP, but in case you'd rather put it towards something else; enjoy."

MoshingChris wrote:

The only way I'd agree to this is if the xp is capped to 10xp if the party is out of Range 5+ levels and Gold drop is capped to ten aswell and loot drops don't happen.

A person only learning so much watching and not doing afterall, and the epic doesn't learn much babysitting the newb.

Theres a reason combat veterans are a more valuable commodity to a Military than green fodder.

I'd support that.

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