AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

FireFromTheSky wrote:

Sure, just stop blocking the old ones.

Ahh. It's you. Stop circumventing your forum ban, please.

I'd love to see more DM quests. Not events. Not plots. Just simple single serving episodes where a party gets to rescue a kid, persuade a crazy gnome to stop inventing, deliver an urgent message, etc. Simply, to have adventures in Amia.

It doesn't have to be epic, action packed, or an elaborate quest. There's no need for faction involvement, no server-wide consequences/changes, or even DCs. A little attention goes a long way, it's easy to appease my kind of crowd. Succeeding or failing in the quests doesn't matter either.

Amia's a great place yes, and we can make up our own adventures with the module too. But it easily could get boring without another person (DM) creating challenges, possessing the npcs, and interacting through the environment. It becomes a simple PvM - a multiplayer-coop video game set in Amia.

I've got nothing against the current and past DM events, I actually like reading about them. We can see that the world is alive and it moves on whether my characters like it or not. More often than not these require characters with invested interests like being in a faction, alts rarely have them.

These also require players to be forum active and to be in the know.

I understand it's probably impossible to do daily dm quests but it's what I most look forward to. In my time here I've had experienced about 6-8 DM run quests and they've been the most memorable to me. I met a number of people who haven't even seen DM presence once in their stay here. It's a shame because they eventually quit Amia because 'everything stays the same'. Here's hoping for more quests.

FireFromTheSky wrote:

Why toss random harm at players that are quite happy "freeforming" just having fun RPing? From experience, more often than not DM events like these mess up the rp for the people. If you are not going to let them solve the situation you tossed at them and win, then yes, I would preffer you not involve them to begin with.

If you don't like the fact that the world responds to you, and you want your RP to follow its railroad, why don't you write a story? You are playing a game, the game responds to you and occasionally things you don't like happen.

I wont lie I skiped alot of the posts because I wanteed to comment on the DM event war idea.

the Nes'ek event was one of the best ever because it was so open Tormak delt with main plot, the rest of the DMs could do random side quests from random attacks,save some random farmer,get us food...ect and disco just has to beef up the spawn rates/spawns and we can go on patrols.

large events work so well because you dont need to wait for just the DM running it to do something out of the fear of DM steping on eachothers toes.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

I actually think Corpyx is right, the large scale war events are always the best ones. As a general rule, a horde of weaker monsters is more fun than one near-unbeatable one.

In regards to fire from the sky, there is some truth in what he is saying whether you like it or not. Honestly, in most of the DM events I have been in I had no idea what was going on. Even after the event finished, the whole thing always seemed to me to just be a bunch of random stuff happening all of a sudden. The Kossuthians do seem like that to me, as well. Never heard a single thing about them then out of the blue they just rock up.

In fantasy and science finction writing, publishers look for internal logic in a story. There is very little of that in amian DM events, with things near impossible to predict coming out of the blue. Its like it goes A...B...C...56!!! and the DMs wonder why people dont see it coming. It is not like a Shyamalan story where you realize at the end why it went the way it did, it just feels completely random even when the whole story is revealed.

Yurell, you are not wrong logically but from a story perspective you are very wrong. There are certain unwritten rules and tropes that you need to follow with these things to make them cool, smashing a party of PCs is not really what the DMs should be aiming for at all. Furthermore, there are cool ways of doing it and lame ways.

Personally, I think I know a way to run a fantastic event but it really uses the most cliched plotline ever. A lot of people have suggested similiar to this, I dont know why it is not pursued really. What Amia really needs is a MacGuffin, simple plot device. The ring in lord of the rings is that stories MacGuffin. Objects that are important and powerful, etc. The thing is that what the MacGuffin is or does is near irrelevent, as shown in Pulp Fiction with the briefcase which you never really get to find out what was in it anyway. It is a plot device, one that is sorely lacking on amia.

You have an evil character, Mr. Bad, who is seeking his lost artifact which shattered into four pieces. Dont trust PCs? Give the pieces to prominent NPCs from various groups, some opposing. Send Mr. Bad's armies against various cities/groups. Other DMs want to join? Let them each play one of Mr. Bad's generals. Make it a group effort on the DM teams side. Flesh out their characters as much as they wish, motives etc. Seems like an easy and great plot idea to me, I could probably run it in the standard DM client with no DMFI-like tools almost single handedly. A PC verse NPC war would go a long way, and a good thing about the set up I prestend here is that the individual pieces of the artifact can be completely powerless and only combinable by Mr. Bad himself. The trick is not to make it fancy, hordes of undead with general undead weaknesses attacking can go a long way because it is the reaction given by players that makes it fun.

corypx wrote:

I wont lie I skiped alot of the posts because I wanteed to comment on the DM event war idea.

the Nes'ek event was one of the best ever because it was so open Tormak delt with main plot, the rest of the DMs could do random side quests from random attacks,save some random farmer,get us food...ect and disco just has to beef up the spawn rates/spawns and we can go on patrols.

large events work so well because you dont need to wait for just the DM running it to do something out of the fear of DM steping on eachothers toes.

Agreed. I loved that event. It was handled brilliantly and I could actually use my drow effectively. Lag never seemed THAT much of an issue and the IC interaction was great since there was a great variety of people within the camp.

I do agree that large events work out quite well and Nesek is possibly, the best example as it also included a large amount of losses and failures on the player's side which was handled greatly ICly.

Wyjyn wrote:

Yurell, you are not wrong logically but from a story perspective you are very wrong. There are certain unwritten rules and tropes that you need to follow with these things to make them cool, smashing a party of PCs is not really what the DMs should be aiming for at all. Furthermore, there are cool ways of doing it and lame ways.

So long as DMs avoid Deus ex Machina, and keep the events without logical inconsistencies, it is fine.

Last edited by Dev Disco on Wed, Oct 07 2009, 11:00 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Deus ex Machina is a very valid solution in big plots. The PCs cannot know everything, on the contrary: most often they are like feathers in the wind. Just like most living beings have been over the last 2,5 billion years.

I think people expect a manual coming with each DM quest, but that's not how it works.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

My favourite DM event was probably Kjetta's Nes'ek war, though I did not like how he had low level parties in the lead up to it:( The war itself was great because it had waves of enemies going across a field at just the right difficulty, felt really cool. After it was done he made the lathander priestess personally award each character, which is so obviously fantasy setting victory approach that it just rocked. If I was to create a model for DM events, his war in Nes'ek would probably fulfil 90% of the criteria. If Amia had events like that often, it would be huge.

Dev Disco wrote:

Deus ex Machina is a very valid solution in big plots. The PCs cannot know everything, on the contrary: most often they are like feathers in the wind. Just like most living beings have been over the last 2,5 billion years.

It's much nicer to have a plot-consistent solution (a deus ex machina disguised if you prefer) than 'rocks fall, monsters die' blatant deus ex machina.

Wyjyn wrote:

My favourite DM event was probably Kjetta's Nes'ek war, though I did not like how he had low level parties in the lead up to it:( The war itself was great because it had waves of enemies going across a field at just the right difficulty, felt really cool. After it was done he made the lathander priestess personally award each character, which is so obviously fantasy setting victory approach that it just rocked. If I was to create a model for DM events, his war in Nes'ek would probably fulfil 90% of the criteria. If Amia had events like that often, it would be huge.

I'd have to say the Nes'ek plot was one of the best.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

I am possibly talking about a different plot to you, though Tormak's nes'ek one was pretty good too really. Could have done with more fighting to my mind. Another plot that was great was the Winya plot ages back against Macar. The battle at the winya falls was great if only because the lead up was so fun with all the PCs hanging around the falls (was a lag fest, though).

Any DM event which has a huge looming threat, a large scale battle and heaps of PCs gathering and interacting (before, during and after) turns out to be a good event. I really think my plan that I listed above is the best plan, give items of power to NPCs or even PCs and let Big bad and his forces come after them. It would generate so much roleplay, with PCs needing to interact and create alliances. SOme of the baddies could try to get involved, make sure that at least one piece of artifact finds it into an evil player/NPCs hands.

It doesn't matter what kind of DM event it is, but that it fits the players involved.

Take for example the drow plague plotline. That might be a great plotline for Salandran players as it fits perfectly in the duty of the PCs. They can spend evenings RPing to find a cure and holding the hand of a sick PC. From what I read they got involved and had fun.

But I don't really think this plot works for underdark drow. As a llothite drow player, you might not enjoy spending an evening RPing to look for a cure. But since the effect is forced on your race, you can not decide -not- to get involved.
So, you can look for a cure anyway ICLy. Since you do not enjoy it, the chances to come up with a brilliant way to cure it are rather slim. Thus, you will hear that you are too stupid for the plot line.
On the other hand, you can just shut up and ignore the plotline, but then you are not reacting to your enviroment, which makes you a bad RPler.
Then, you can say openly OOC: This is a plot line you do not enjoy. In this case, you are told you are a wussie that can not handle events with negative effects on your PC.
Finally, you can just not log in with your drow and either play another PC or another game, where you are sure you have fun.

Or we can come up with ideas of plotlines, underdark drow enjoy:

E.g. a drow might want to learn about a dwarven miner expedition, track them through the tunnels, take a few captives, cut off their fingers, pour acid in their eyes and then recieve, as a reward, a whiping of his mistress in her catsuite.

EDIT: that's actually only my personal opinion of how I might feel as a drow player, if I would be one. And sorry for the DM how leads the plot line.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

This is a prime example of whats wrong. I've tried to hold my tongue, but I can't anymore, sorry.

[rant]And no, I'm not agreeing with your whiny little ass, I'm showing you as an example of the baby players who treat this game like The Sims instead of an adventuring game. Stop being a (censored) bitch and take what comes at you. It's D and (censored) D for the love of god. Conflict is it's main source of RP. Go play one of those social servers and have tea and huggle all you like. There are too many whiny bitches, seriously. It's so disheartening. If they're the ones who are mostly leaving, I say good (censored) riddance. [/end rant]

With that said, can DM's do (censored) up and/or unfair (censored)? Of course they can, they're human. But the forest situation has not been unfair. Furthermore, I haven't seen or heard of an undoubtedly unfair DM event in a very very long time. Just baseless crying. There has been plenty of ways to get results but people chose to stick to one or two routes. That's fine, don't get me wrong, if it's all IC, it's all IC. What gets to me is when people cry OCCly because their IC plans backfired or otherwise failed. [rant 2]Grow the (censored) up, dude, seriously. It's a damn game, get a life.[/end rant 2]

WORD.

It's got nothing to do with plot / event content, clockwerkz, the problem is the majority of new players are younger, and thus think that the entire world owes them everything and they must not work to attain it.

This is what happens when you remove social accountability and instead promote "everyone wins and no one loses"... when someone loses (read = the event didn't go how =they= wanted it to) they bitch and complain and moan because that's the other technique thats carried over from their upbringing - crying gets the issue resolved.

Yes, I just said it, and you don't like it, your probably suffering from the above.

Get over it, there ARE losers, just as there ARE winners, and it's NOT going to be you EVERYTIME.

Regards,

big war events are causing laggggg, so probably not the best idea.
smaller, regional battles, like what we had against the surrounding creatures with the Winyans would totally work

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

*"spoiled-kid"-bashing*

You tell 'em grandpa

Any plot line that doesn't have a problem isn't worth the effort it would take to run. As a DM it's difficult to come up with problems that can't be solved by high level PCs using winmagic. That leads to plots about diseases that need more work from the players than clicking a button on their quickbar.

Take clockwork's dwarven mining expedition idea: it's easy and on the surface there's very little in the way to stop the drow players from getting accolades from their mistresses. It's not a bad premise, but it's my job to set up roadblocks, and if the players don't overcome them, they don't get a reward for a job well done. Why should they?

Ok, I will try to reformulate my opinion. I do not want that everyone wins all the time, I want that everyone enjoys to loose.

What I wish for is conflict RP or DM events, after which the guy who just was PKed and captured or who lost in a DM event, that this guy in the end of rthe evening sends a tell to his killer or the DM: "Wow, I lost but it was great fun." I think that is the true art of good conflict RP or DM plots.

Now, this is for sure not always the case. And there might be some players who really have troubles loosing. but these are a minority. So, I disagree in the point that this is always the fault of the player who lost because he is too much a "wussie" to accept negative effects. Most times, the victorious player or DM just doesn't take the effort to make conflict RP also enjoyable to those who loose the battle.

jameslocke wrote:

Any plot line that doesn't have a problem isn't worth the effort it would take to run.

I was once in a plot about the swamp lizards attacking Uhm. We were a whole bunch of epic defender PCs coming to rescue the village. The spawns were no challenge at all, but the event was one of the best defender RP because we could do what our PC do, defend the weak. Same for drow. We once razed the lowland delta village. The was no challenge either, but we just had fun to do what drow do, murder innocents.

Challenges are not the only fun events. Sometimes just suppling the PCs an opportunity to RP what the PCS usually do with an interactive DM lead enviroment can be great fun. And there must be no reward in the end other than having been participated.

How would I as a DM make it fun for someone who hates to lose, lose? By definition that player will not enjoy what I've done because they didn't win.

I love it when a player graciously accepts what happens, regardless of what it is. And honestly that's how it goes most of the time. I try to come up with quests and small events that will be fun for me and the players involved, but when someone complains about things OOC, it takes away from my enjoyment.

A sore loser is never a nice thing for anyone.

During my time on Amia I have been involved in alot of events, some minor some large. I dont mean this as a boost but merely to say Amia constantly has things changing the fact you dont know of them, have not witnessed them with your own eyes does not mean they are not occuring.

I agree with Frey's post, and gun's as well, if you want to see events partake in events you have to accept that you cannot win them all.

Im also going to point out, that big events where we see large NPC factions or even Faction vs Faction occuring are the results of months of extensive RP, where the players are RP amoung themselves and then at times with the DM team. Do not sit around waiting for things to happen, go out explore connect the Dots.

As a player who invests alot of time into finding out information of other factions, I can see that the DM team work very hard to involve different groups of players into there events. The fact that these different groups do not communicate or put the subtle hints together is no fault of there own for they have put the effort in and if players cannot do the same in return then they do not deserve to take part.

I would rather Amia's policies stay the same that the DM team continues to plan events and not handing things out on a plate for the playerbase. I would rather spend months investigating, having my ass handed too me and in the end be shocked by something I had never thought of than knowing the end result before it even happend.

Finnaly to all the newer generation of players who believe the current system is unjust and you dont like loosing. I would like to point out how things where done in the past years back with the old DM team. Your lucky your involved your lucky this DM team is one of if not the best available because it certainly never used to be this way. If you where back on amia then you would certainly not be bitching like spoilt brats.

soundofastream wrote:

The Hidden Glade, are so hidden, they're practically non-existant.

Timezone. I see alot of activity with this faction, several active members who are around and playing all the time on my playtimes.

Craig deathwalker wrote:

Finnaly to all the newer generation of players who believe the current system is unjust and you dont like loosing. I would like to point out how things where done in the past years back with the old DM team. Your lucky your involved your lucky this DM team is one of if not the best available because it certainly never used to be this way. If you where back on amia then you would certainly not be bitching like spoilt brats.

I don't think it's fair to target a specific group like that There are sore losers amongst older players just as surely as amongst newcomers.

ticket wrote:

I'd love to see more DM quests. It doesn't have to be epic, action packed, or an elaborate quest. There's no need for faction involvement, no server-wide consequences/changes, or even DCs.

I remember Yoss' quest to search for a missing lad in Wiltun. No combat, no alignments, just pure story.
In recent days, random DM quests just do not happen anymore.
I would like to see more non pvp/pvm quests.

Last edited by Dev Disco on Wed, Oct 07 2009, 13:47 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I think that the implicit suggestion in Clockwork's comments is that DM events do not necessarily need to be something you can 'win' or 'lose'. They don't have to be a challenge, and the stakes do not need to be high. In the end only one thing matters, I think: was the event enjoyable to both DM and players?

I am quite far removed from the daily DM and player business, but I have the feeling this is indeed true, and a problem:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

ticket wrote:

I'd love to see more DM quests. It doesn't have to be epic, action packed, or an elaborate quest. There's no need for faction involvement, no server-wide consequences/changes, or even DCs.

I remember Yoss' quest to search for a missing lad in Wiltun. No combat, no alignments, just pure story.
In recent days, random DM quests just do not happen anymore.
I would like to see more non pvp/pvm quests.

Admittedly, I've stopped running quests/events. Simply got bored of the incessant, apparently 'justified' whining of players when things don't go as well as they do.

The only plot I have going now, is the Black Caravan, and loathe as I am to say it - I'm almost getting impatient for someone to work out their startlingly obvious weakness and exploit it, so I can end the plot. Sadly too many people fail to rationalize that their powerbuilds will not give them the solution.

It's a very sharp demoralizer for a DM when they get to read comments that are either outright insulting/degrading, whether directed at myself or the extensive effort I tend to put into planning and operation.

The trend has been on the rise over the last 12 months, and I'm pretty sure that's why you see less quests and events overall. Players can't at least be civil when things don't go their way, and DMs aren't too interested in standing there taking flak all day.

belgianbonzai wrote:

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

*"spoiled-kid"-bashing*

You tell 'em grandpa

Don't have grandkids... yet.. so bugger off ye wee bebble!

You just said that cause yeh know I'm right!

Regards,

WonWon wrote:

Admittedly, I've stopped running quests/events. Simply got bored of the incessant, apparently 'justified' whining of players when things don't go as well as they do.

The only plot I have going now, is the Black Caravan, and loathe as I am to say it - I'm almost getting impatient for someone to work out their startlingly obvious weakness and exploit it, so I can end the plot. Sadly too many people fail to rationalize that their powerbuilds will not give them the solution.

It's a very sharp demoralizer for a DM when they get to read comments that are either outright insulting/degrading, whether directed at myself or the extensive effort I tend to put into planning and operation.

The trend has been on the rise over the last 12 months, and I'm pretty sure that's why you see less quests and events overall. Players can't at least be civil when things don't go their way, and DMs aren't too interested in standing there taking flak all day.

I know for a fact any combat build I have will be at best, grudgingly useless in this situation.

Only thing that's really buggered me with this Black Caravan, is I've as a player picked up bits and pieces of information about them over anywhere between two and four of my characters (One of whom is now happily one with the Weave). At one point, I had a very relative idea on how they MIGHT be able to be dealt with in a combat sense but admittedly, it was at best an unconventional longshot.

I think what's preserved them to date, is that no outright hostility has come of them by in large (save of course those who have gained the BC's Ire through their actions) , and no confirmable information been uncovered of them that has prompted more then one, perhaps two major factions to honestly act against them.

Would like to talk more on the topic privately as well sometime.

Dev Disco wrote:

I think that the implicit suggestion in Clockwork's comments is that DM events do not necessarily need to be something you can 'win' or 'lose'. They don't have to be a challenge, and the stakes do not need to be high. In the end only one thing matters, I think: was the event enjoyable to both DM and players?

Yes, thank you for expressing it so clearly. Basically, we are here to have fun.

Anyway, there seems to be a rather broad consensus by DMs and experienced players alike that there is a growing problem with many players "whining" if things do not go the way they want.

So, why is this so? The only thing I can think of is that the Amia setting changes to be more serious. It might be that, when the IC athmosphere is more serious, IC consequences are percieved as being more grave. Nobody really took offence when he was killed by a Mander Hellball during a performance of the backtunnel boys in the "less serious" days.

And finally, is there something we can do about it?

I've never thought of DMs as a reason to play or remain on Amia. That's not to say I don't appreciate DMs, in fact it's irrelevant.

It's always been about the players. The interactivity, the deep layers of relationships, events and plots, rumours, and trade. If I want a deep plot where I can feel special that I'm part of it and have maybe a headlight shone upon me, I'd download one of the many many modules out there.

Remember, you don't need to rely on a DM to be part of an event. And events aren't strictly DM controlled. If you wish to raise an army and invade Oakmist Vale, do it. Though make sure you arrange with as many players as you can on both sides that it's happening, making sure not to leave out someone just because they weren't online and missed a life changing situation just for not being in the know and having the chance to react in game.

I'm all for player events. I've liked them from the first week of Amia, and continue to try and organise them myself.

Don't blame DMs' events for lack of players. Blame the players, and maybe blame yourself as I have done myself.

I'm really going to stand by Ron on his last post. Any time a DM does either a single event, or a series of events related to a longer plot, he or she opens him or herself up to criticism. We acknowledge that. What is demoralizing in particular is just how quickly some people panic and go OOC and complain the minute they realize that they're going to have to do "work" that goes beyond the numbers on their character sheet.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Yossarin, you get that as a player if you try to get stuff going anyway. The only difference is that you have more power as a DM to ignore it really.

I just do not understand the big deal really, I don't get why DMs log into the client but do not run events. Why do one without the other?

I only log in to do events these days. Hence why a lot of those incessant "rebuild me plz" or "i need a name change plx thanx" or "this person jumped my huntin' spot and is stealin' mah XPs and GPs!" irritate the crap out of me because when I log into the Client I hit the ground running and I'm busy with, you know...important stuff.

TBH it struck me as obvious as soon as I got to know online RPG players a little better that DMing for them would be thankless. I've recently had a chat about this with a friend, and she told me about how people failed miserably in her plots and got themselves slaughtered due to head-through-the-wall tactics, subsequently complaining to her that she was too hard on them. She found this hilarious.

I guess sadists are at a bit of an advantage as a DM. If you're good willed and you just hope all the time that people will get the hint, smarten up, provide the plot with well thought out RP, then you're bound to get very very angry at this job. And I guess that is part of why despite the best recruiting efforts some timezones still fall short of DM love.

So, the gist of it is: Most people have a very rudimentary idea of what roleplay is, and because of that they suck hardcore. But most people aren't gonna change either, so you gotta find a way to DM for these people and be O.K. with it.

With such a lengthy page or two of text i really couldn't read it all. So i'm just gunna say I think a war would be interesting. I was thinking about it a week or so ago but no one listens to me. So if this happens it'd be awsome.

It's been done. Mega, server rocking wars have a habit of alienating significant server portions. You want a war? Start one yourself.

xordae wrote:

I guess sadists are at a bit of an advantage as a DM. If you're good willed and you just hope all the time that people will get the hint, smarten up, provide the plot with well thought out RP, then you're bound to get very very angry at this job. And I guess that is part of why despite the best recruiting efforts some timezones still fall short of DM love.

Heh, yeah. We try not to recruit folks with truly sadistic tendencies. But isn't it the same with all things. When you fix one thing, another falls apart. (in our case, our DMs are quite pleasant people overall, inclined to please and help with joy, and then they get bulldozed for their efforts and get moody and demotivated as a result. rinse and repeat and see the results)

But I sincerely don't think things would be much better if we had the opposite situation. Not getting upset and affected as a DM when things go wrong reeks of sociopathic tendencies to me. And you don't want a bunch of emotionally cold control freaks DMing for anybody.

When "war" ended up in the forest recently, on several occasions.. all it did in the end was make people go somewhere else, and completely kill off the RP there. On average 4-5 people were standing around. Now there's 0-1. Sometimes 3.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

I disagree with the pessimism in this thread, it is the same old 'people suck' argument whereby you replace 'people' with 'everyone but me/everyone not in a position of power'. The player base are fine overall, you will be pushing it in any online game to find people like this. Go play any FPS if you don't believe that, seriously.

Its not complicated, shut up and roleplay. That includes DMs running quests.

No YOU shutup!

Wyjyn wrote:

I disagree with the pessimism in this thread, it is the same old 'people suck' argument whereby you replace 'people' with 'everyone but me/everyone not in a position of power'. The player base are fine overall, you will be pushing it in any online game to find people like this. Go play any FPS if you don't believe that, seriously.

Its not complicated, shut up and roleplay. That includes DMs running quests.

I already told you, that's what I do. But somehow it doesn't stop people from continuing to beg for rebuilds, name changes, skin changes, etc. while I am clearly preoccupied with "running quests". And then every player has the audacity to take umbrage with me saying "no" because of a sense of entitlement that seems to have cropped up. Even when they smile and say "that is ok" I know that's not really what they're thinking. I'm not dumb.

Regardless, I don't think the people suck mentality necessarily prevents players from RP'ing and DMs from doing their work unless they have thin skins. I will say, though, it prevents enjoyment of that work.

Yossarin wrote:

I'm really going to stand by Ron on his last post. Any time a DM does either a single event, or a series of events related to a longer plot, he or she opens him or herself up to criticism. We acknowledge that. What is demoralizing in particular is just how quickly some people panic and go OOC and complain the minute they realize that they're going to have to do "work" that goes beyond the numbers on their character sheet.

I'm gonna stand by Yossarin on this point.

In the Cordor plot, I have asked him as part of my tasks some questions which I am pretty darn sure weren't things that he had worked out prior or could just quickly refer to on the DM forums.

As for the work that goes beyond the character sheet, yeah I admit it ain't easy (Yossarin can attest to the amount of recordkeeping I had to do for the Fundraising work) but there's some real fun there if you look for it. I do admit freely I'm kind of suffering from a bit of OOC nervousness about the Cordor plot myself (and irrationally so) , but part ofi t is, I don't want to disappoint anyone. I really don't.

I think another problem is that sometimes a DM may make him/herself entirely inaccessible during a plot. The people who are not already directly involved then have no way of becoming involved through any means, if they were late in learning about it. It's happened to me a few times, but I don't fault the DM for it, or even the players really. I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they're so busy with things that they can't remember every little request during a plot, or that they don't have the energy to deal with every little request that won't work or won't yield any kind of results. Waste of time, in other words. I can understand it, even if I'm not sure I would agree with it if it was the case.

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The people who are not already directly involved then have no way of becoming involved through any means

Yes and that just means you wait until the next plot in my opinion. Player Character +1 social circle daisy chain DM events are the most boring, illogical, ludicrous, lag fested, annoying heaps of crap I've ever been involved in. The social circle daisy chain on Amia needs to be disconnected. If your late, or missed a point in a plot, then effectively your character does not need to be involved in it, especially if the plot is still advancing without your character, unless extenuating circumstances promote your characters involvement.

I'm more talking about... Well, for example... Let's say someone who is heavily involved in a plot asks my character to do something regarding the plot, whether because of faction involvement or just because the one asking is an IC friend. In order to do as asked, I'd need help from the DM, and when I can't get anything out of it for the reasons stated above, I'm left trying to come up with a reason that my character wouldn't have done it.

I'm not talking about "Oh, my OOC friend is in on a plot. I want in on it! OMG!"

Edit: And personally, I don't think players should have to set aside IC actions because other people think they can do it without them.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Daisy chaining plots are the best, much better than keeping the plot to yourself or your own private circle. If I were a DM, I would favour anyone who spread my plots as far as possible. Go loud mouths go!

Some events /need/ private circles.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

divinesaint wrote:

Some events /need/ private circles.

Yeah, the type that attracts less players and ultimately results in less people playing on the server.

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Edit: And personally, I don't think players should have to set aside IC actions because other people think they can do it without them.

I do. Because generally the IC actions taken are because the player -not- the character has a need to be in the limelight.

If the plot advances without you, you are superflous to the plot, any action you take will not change the revelation of the plot other than perhaps the common Amian ailment of Cast Spell: Deus Ex Machina, which every DM seems to be clued into.

And Wyjyn theres a huge difference between the Daisy Chain and the Grapevine.

It's the events that "need" private circles that drive people away. What's wrong with people asking IC'ly, "Is there anything I can do to help? I've a fondness for (insert deity/city/whatever's relevent)."

When you talk like that Chris, it doesn't sound like you're trying to bar people who want to steal the limelight, or borrow it briefly. It sounds like you'd rather keep it to yourself. I couldn't care less about limelight. I'm more than happy for my character to be told -IC- that there's nothing she can do. It's the OOC ignoring and Elitism that spurn others.

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