AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - PvP Situations. Discussion, no flaming or specific incidents

MoshingChris wrote:

Transitions question.

The thing that gives me pause here is that some people have significantly slower area loading times than others, and that's a very crappy way to win or lose a fight.

If it's been done in such a way that this isn't an issue, then I don't really see the problem.

Side note: Stillborn is my character; my PM box is always open; and I'm a horrible person. End of discussion of name.

Another question:
If you're in an RP situation where your character punches/kicks another player, is it acceptable to rely on the NWN engine to work out your attacks, rather than roll dice?

For example, Player 1 has Player 2 kneeling before him. Player 1 kicks Player 2 in the face. Player 1 attacks for one round, damaging Player 2. Player 2 complains and says Player 1 should have rolled dice instead.

Marauth wrote:

Another question:
If you're in an RP situation where your character punches/kicks another player, is it acceptable to rely on the NWN engine to work out your attacks, rather than roll dice?

For example, Player 1 has Player 2 kneeling before him. Player 1 kicks Player 2 in the face. Player 1 attacks for one round, damaging Player 2. Player 2 complains and says Player 1 should have rolled dice instead.

Ask beforehand.

Normally people just roll, others don't.. *shrug*

As I've heard before from some DM's, Rolling is not required -ever- unless a DM asks for it during an event.

That is correct!

I hate rolling. If you act scary enough, I'll be scared. If you perform well, I'll be impressed.

If you copy and paste Jonas Brothers lyrics as a bard and roll above 100 in a perform check I'll PK you and have Won Won ban me for a few weeks.

Lalelilolu wrote:

If you copy and paste Jonas Brothers lyrics as a bard and roll above 100 in a perform check I'll PK you and have Won Won ban me for a few weeks.

Wheras if it was 'Journey' lyrics, the Bard would be the one getting banned, I presume? :wink:

Alright, so you don't need to roll unless asked by a DM then?

Marauth wrote:

Another question:
If you're in an RP situation where your character punches/kicks another player, is it acceptable to rely on the NWN engine to work out your attacks, rather than roll dice?

For example, Player 1 has Player 2 kneeling before him. Player 1 kicks Player 2 in the face. Player 1 attacks for one round, damaging Player 2. Player 2 complains and says Player 1 should have rolled dice instead.

With the exception of Devcrit Monks who are wearing their Greater Gloves of Pain, I can't see anyone dealing more than a handful of HP from one round of unarmed attacks. There isn't much cause for objection there.

There comes a point when you have to give up on people and just accept they'd rather complain than continue. Recognise and avoid.

Uberuce wrote:

With the exception of Devcrit Monks who are wearing their Greater Gloves of Pain, I can't see anyone dealing more than a handful of HP from one round of unarmed attacks. There isn't much cause for objection there.

Don't forget rogues/BG's/Assassins.
They still deal sneak damage.

Brown Blur wrote:

Lalelilolu wrote:

If you copy and paste Jonas Brothers lyrics as a bard and roll above 100 in a perform check I'll PK you and have Won Won ban me for a few weeks.

Wheras if it was 'Journey' lyrics, the Bard would be the one getting banned, I presume? :wink:

Oh man, I'd ban any DM who banned you for using Journey lyrics a s abard, and don't stop believin' that.

HellScourge wrote:

Don't forget rogues/BG's/Assassins.
They still deal sneak damage.

I forgot rogue/BG/Assassins. I feel silly, given how Sneakly two of my characters are.

Uberuce wrote:

HellScourge wrote:

Don't forget rogues/BG's/Assassins.
They still deal sneak damage.

I forgot rogue/BG/Assassins. I feel silly, given how Sneakly two of my characters are.

*whacks just for good measures* Its hard to spot sarcasm or honesty, so I whack you just for good measures *sagenods* :twisted:

removed

Could you pretty please either take it to a PM, or start another thread about that?

(EDIT: Thanks.)

HellScourge wrote:

*whacks just for good measures* Its hard to spot sarcasm or honesty, so I whack you just for good measures *sagenods* :twisted:

The wisest choice.

It was honesty, I really had forgotten.

In general, I wish people were a bit less trigger-happy on the "griefer" accusations. So what if someone killed your summon or you copped a circle-kick in the face for standing too close to someone PvPing? You lose nothing from getting "griefed".

I could rant on, but suffice to say I think that the people complaining are more often guilty of mixing IC and OOC than those initating PvP these days.

It's funny.. take a game with a lot less regulations and no Roleplay, WoW for example, and you have an environment with considerably less whining and hurt feelings over PvP.

It's this feeling of being slighted or losing respect in the RP-world that makes a lot of the problems with PvP. Not many people are goodhearted about these encounters. VERY often, it goes like.. "We might get into trouble here with these guys. We have two more in the party, so we'll just rest and prepare and play the neutrality card for as long as possible. Then the chance is the highest that we'll win."

Unfortunately, there's not a lot you can do. You can be careful (also called trigger-happy) and just jump anyone who doesn't come across as too nice and who buffs in your presence, you can try to play nice with everyone, or you can run away a lot. The dilemma is that this possible PvP situation is slowly getting more and more unfavourable, thanks to the opposing party buffing themselves. When you have no buffs yourself to do the same thing, you're really out of luck here. Your preparation would be to just kill the lot of them. What do you do? In any case they play you the ball of being 1) the aggressor yourself or 2) likely losing the encounter.

TormakSaber wrote:

Oh man, I'd ban any DM who banned you for using Journey lyrics a s abard, and don't stop believin' that.

Favorite post of the topic!

Running away is the #1 way of winning on Amia today!

xordae wrote:

It's funny.. take a game with a lot less regulations and no Roleplay, WoW for example, and you have an environment with considerably less whining and hurt feelings over PvP.

It has a lot to do with the type of players a game attracts. Those who like PvP and trigger-happiness go play WoW, and the rest of us don't play it because we don't like it or we find it less than satisfactory as a form of entertainment.

Questions about one of those random (testosterone-filled) pvp encounters...

Should characters remember their losses and thus aim for some kind of revenge, especially if your character is the holds-a-grudge-till-he-dies type of character?

How long should you wait before you can have your revenge? A reset, an hour, 15 minutes?

Will it be an endless cycle of futile exercises? Is that even a bad thing - where every step, your character could be ambushed by his enemies?

Personally, I like having my characters making enemies and people to kill on sight. Usually the random pvps are just one-offs with no future impact on my characters. Most of the other players you've fought won't even be there in a few weeks time, so might as well make the best of it.

One time, my evil character wanted to exact revenge (~1 hour passed) on a person and so I set up to interrupt his group's hunt to catch him as he rest and thus be vulnerable. They saw me as I walked up to them... what followed was a stream of OOC "// complain, you're dead, you don't remember" chatter. After a few minutes of banter, they just logged off.

Last edited by Lally on Mon, Apr 27 2009, 13:46 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Nekhy wrote:

xordae wrote:

It's funny.. take a game with a lot less regulations and no Roleplay, WoW for example, and you have an environment with considerably less whining and hurt feelings over PvP.

It has a lot to do with the type of players a game attracts. Those who like PvP and trigger-happiness go play WoW, and the rest of us don't play it because we don't like it or we find it less than satisfactory as a form of entertainment.

That and here you have DM's that will actually -listen- to the whining

Nekhy wrote:

xordae wrote:

It's funny.. take a game with a lot less regulations and no Roleplay, WoW for example, and you have an environment with considerably less whining and hurt feelings over PvP.

It has a lot to do with the type of players a game attracts. Those who like PvP and trigger-happiness go play WoW, and the rest of us don't play it because we don't like it or we find it less than satisfactory as a form of entertainment.

That doesn't quite answer the "griefer" problem, though, and it's about as logical as the RP vs. Powerbuild argument.

Xordae's quite right, I think. It has a lot to do with perceived loss of respect, though I think it's both IC and OOC. If your character is fighting another, and he loses, suddenly not only is he the super unstoppable warrior everyone thought he was, but also people won't be as impressed by your powerbuild anymore. The obvious solution is to play it like it wouldn't happen normally. "Sure I got beat, but it was because he PK'd me without RP and didn't set me to hostile", blah blah blah.

It's a mark of pride that many people hold, for whatever dumb reason, that their character builds are so ungodly powerful that no one can ever beat them, it's sort of like people who build up their personalities on their good looks or being the smartest person in their class or whatever. Everything's well and good until their vision of themself, and through that their vision of how other people view them, is put in jeopardy. When they might not be the best powerbuilder or PvPer around, they become "average".

Of course, that doesn't perfectly fit the fact that upwards of 80% of people get upset about these things, but it's roughly the right shape. People don't like to lose because it injures their pride, regardless of how flawed that logic, or that sense of pride, is.

Carter's spot on. It's about pride. Clouds your judgment and makes you see red. *Nodnod* It happens to everyone from time to time. Depends on the circumstances.

ticket wrote:

Questions about one of those random (testosterone-filled) pvp encounters...

Should characters remember their losses and thus aim for some kind of revenge, especially if your character is the holds-a-grudge-till-he-dies type of character?

How long should you wait before you can have your revenge? A reset, an hour, 15 minutes?

Will it be an endless cycle of futile exercises? Is that even a bad thing - where every step, your character could be ambushed by his enemies?

Personally, I like having my characters making enemies and people to kill on sight. Usually the random pvps are just one-offs with no future impact on my characters. Most of the other players you've fought won't even be there in a few weeks time, so might as well make the best of it.

One time, my evil character wanted to exact revenge (~1 hour passed) on a person and so I set up to interrupt his group's hunt to catch him as he rest and thus be vulnerable. They saw me as I walked up to them... what followed was a stream of OOC "// complain, you're dead, you don't remember" chatter. After a few minutes of banter, they just logged off.

Revenge PvP is always iffy. I don't like it. Never has, never will.

Unless someone witnessed yourself getting killed, I can't say I find it ICly sensible that you'd knew who and why to seek vengeance against.

Revenge PvP can often turn into griefing as well. And, it's usually not nessecary. There are times you have to give up the "But my character would do this!" in order to make the game fun and enjoyable for -everyone- on an OOC level.

I've had hundreds of players through the years who've sought revenge for getting themself killed (often in fights where -they- initiated the PvP, and ended up losing).

It's a pride issue. In almost all cases it's about the player, on an OOC level, not being able to handle the defeat, and therefore seeks to redeem themself.

Unnessecary.

I'd say that revenge PvP shouldn't be strived for unless you're character is ICly informed about it by someone else. And if the character does information about it, I'd probably wait days, at least, to avoid the possibility of a never-ending downhill PvP-circle, which in the end is doomed to cause nothing but OOC grief, bitching and complaining.

Mr Mago wrote:

Revenge PvP can often turn into griefing as well. And, it's usually not nessecary. There are times you have to give up the "But my character would do this!" in order to make the game fun and enjoyable for -everyone- on an OOC level.

It's a pride issue. In almost all cases it's about the player, on an OOC level, not being able to handle the defeat, and therefore seeks to redeem themself.

Unnessecary.

I have to concede that there's both IC and OOC involvement in me. One can never really separate the two always. Pride, competitive drive, I can see how things can and will turn to griefing quickly.

I guess as always, having an OOC-level agreement with the other player is best before doing anything.

Yeah, Carter and xordae are right with the pride theory. People should focus less on winning the ultimate multiplayer challenge (PvP) and focus more on building a good story with their fellow players, whether their character is the winner or loser.

I only feel cheated after PvP if I think the other player didn't make a real effort to RP with me. Players who have their characters say nothing and then spring in on the PvP with the suprise factor are naughty.

On the other side of it, people who don't powerbuild at all tend to feel "griefed" after PvP with a powerbuilder. Or, on less extreme scale, lesser powerbuilders (that is to say, people who don't put so much effort into build, not 'people who aren't as skilled) feel "griefed" when they lose to, say, a minmaxer. When someone feels like the character they just fought was created solely for PvP, or at least whose stats and build reflect powerbuilding over fitting RP, while their own character has a build that "makes sense", there can be a lot of tension because it doesn't seem fair that someone who builds exclusively to have the best build, without regard to proper roleplay (at least in the mind of the offended party) would get the accolades of an IC victory, while the other person, who is far more devoted to RP (again, in the mind of the offended party), would be the loser.

I'll freely admit to being an incredibly sore loser in PvP, precisely for the reasons Carter said: I do take pride in my ability to build for, equip for and conduct PvP. Cannot bloody stand losing. Hate it. Hate Hate Hate with a side order of You're All Bastards.

Just to be contrary, I don't get any joy from winning easy fights, unless I know I'm denting the pride of some person for whom I have what can most charitably called 'little respect'.

I'm like Ruce, I'm a sore loser when it comes to PVP or PVE for that matter, I take pride in my ability to play classes to their fullest

Uberuce wrote:

*snip*... unless I know I'm denting the pride of some person for whom I have what can most charitably called 'little respect'.

Also known as, "RDD's".

:twisted:

Being a sore loser is fine.

Having it as an excuse to bitch, whine and complain when things don't go your way is not.

Not implying that ILoveIceCream or Uce would bitch or whine.

Msot of my builds are so bad that I expect them to lose in PvP, ad laugh when they do. It's a very pleasant surprise to win occasionally.
No matter what happens, the character is not me, so I find no need to be personally insulted when my character gets smashed into the ground (unless they broke the rules).

I feel like the -only one- who chooses pussing out instead of fighting at every opportunity. thats how it sounds on the forums.... my most recent characters are either too peaceful to encourge PvP or too fearful for their life.

blackvswhite wrote:

I feel like the -only one- who chooses pussing out instead of fighting at every opportunity. thats how it sounds on the forums.... my most recent characters are either too peaceful to encourge PvP or too fearful for their life.

Actually, a lot of people choose that option, even if it would be detrimental to their RP (not suggesting that it would in your case).

Even if you have an IC justification to get into a fight, doesn't mean you have an imperative to act out your character's knee-jerk reaction.

If you want to stay true to your character's volatile nature but don't want every provocation to result in a bloodbath, you could always (arrange to) travel with a couple of characters who can drag him/her kicking and screaming from those situations. Then you're not losing face but neither do you have to engage every punk with a loose mouth.

Yurell wrote:

Msot of my builds are so bad that I expect them to lose in PvP, ad laugh when they do. It's a very pleasant surprise to win occasionally.
No matter what happens, the character is not me, so I find no need to be personally insulted when my character gets smashed into the ground (unless they broke the rules).

It always makes me laugh when i see a powerbuild beat someone who has little experience with building, not to mention that the powerbuilder is geared up with the Epic Loot they just found and love to brag about.

2k8ste wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Msot of my builds are so bad that I expect them to lose in PvP, ad laugh when they do. It's a very pleasant surprise to win occasionally.
No matter what happens, the character is not me, so I find no need to be personally insulted when my character gets smashed into the ground (unless they broke the rules).

It always makes me laugh when i see a powerbuild beat someone who has little experience with building, not to mention that the powerbuilder is geared up with the Epic Loot they just found and love to brag about.

It always makes me cry when the guy with little experience building and a "superior" RP-attitude picks fights with those who clearly outsize him, working off of his pride and ultimate hero persona.

It's quite simple.

You don't have to build for PvP.

You control your characters actions. Not the other way around. Don't want PvP? Then don't fucking make an egotastic aggressive douche bag who constantly gets into fights. Choose not to get into PvP when you're given the option to back down.

For some reason, quite a few people within this community has gotten the idea that there are those who come here just to PvP and increase their action-e-peen.

Every player is expected to RP. It's mandatory.

Having a powerbuild or epic loot makes them no less of an RP'er.

Elitist ftw.

I ment OOC'ly bragging that they beat someone who doesn't build well, while packed with their loot of Epic'ness, btw.

2k8ste wrote:

I ment OOC'ly bragging that they beat someone who doesn't build well, while packed with their loot of Epic'ness, btw.

If someone bragged to me OOCly about doing that, I'd flat out call them a jerk and cut them just beneath the kneecaps to drop them one level closer to earth.

OOC bragging may call for a screenie.

take 'em out OOC and they can't take you out IC

In terms of the ambush thing, isn't it party PvP though? The other day for instance, someone was beating up on a lowbie party member of mine. The Sorceress was showing off how powerful she is by casting all sorts of spells on this poor munchkin, so I killed her on the spot before she even realised it (Came out of stealth).

In this case, big powerful sorceress wasn't so big anymore and I acted completely IC. I marked hostile of course but...had I came out of stealth from the start, I'd have been dead too (we all know that Sorcerers are THE most powerful class). As it was, staying in stealth was the only advantage my PC had. Take that away and you're basically ruling against the rogue class for doing what they do best, element of surprise and all that.

soundofastream wrote:

In terms of the ambush thing, isn't it party PvP though? The other day for instance, someone was beating up on a lowbie party member of mine. The Sorceress was showing off how powerful she is by casting all sorts of spells on this poor munchkin, so I killed her on the spot before she even realised it (Came out of stealth).

In this case, big powerful sorceress wasn't so big anymore and I acted completely IC. I marked hostile of course but...had I came out of stealth from the start, I'd have been dead too (we all know that Sorcerers are THE most powerful class). As it was, staying in stealth was the only advantage my PC had. Take that away and you're basically ruling against the rogue class for doing what they do best, element of surprise and all that.

The reason you're switching them to Hostile (regardless if it's even half a second before attacking from stealth) is likely because NWN combat mechanics are occasionally borderline retarded and don't like harming neutrals. By going hostile, you're letting them retaliate fairly within the game's mechanics, that's all.

You're not expected to come out of stealth, give a little wave to show you're there and about to go hostile.

The logical solution would be to walk away laughing, knowing that you could crush said a-hole like a fly. But our egos wo't let us do that now will they, so we just have to draw our blades...

mayormccheese wrote:

The logical solution would be to walk away laughing, knowing that you could crush said a-hole like a fly. But our egos wo't let us do that now will they, so we just have to draw our blades...

Or, alternatively use a 62 DC terrifying rage and force them to walk away (or run xD) unless they have mind blank.

Mr Mago wrote:

Revenge PvP is always iffy. I don't like it. Never has, never will.

Unless someone witnessed yourself getting killed, I can't say I find it ICly sensible that you'd knew who and why to seek vengeance against.

Revenge PvP can often turn into griefing as well. And, it's usually not nessecary. There are times you have to give up the "But my character would do this!" in order to make the game fun and enjoyable for -everyone- on an OOC level.

I've had hundreds of players through the years who've sought revenge for getting themself killed (often in fights where -they- initiated the PvP, and ended up losing).

It's a pride issue. In almost all cases it's about the player, on an OOC level, not being able to handle the defeat, and therefore seeks to redeem themself.

Unnessecary.

I'd say that revenge PvP shouldn't be strived for unless you're character is ICly informed about it by someone else. And if the character does information about it, I'd probably wait days, at least, to avoid the possibility of a never-ending downhill PvP-circle, which in the end is doomed to cause nothing but OOC grief, bitching and complaining.

Would you feel the same way about revenge PvP where neither of them was killed? For example - one character owes another character something and was not given it, thus seeking revenge?

So the lesson so far is.

If your observing a pvp situation, claim ICly you are not going to participate in the fight or say nothing and expect to be pulverized, run away to show you don't want pvp if nothing has been typed.

...but do not stand there and expect mercy when the gloves are coming off and people are about to chop off each others heads, it's not a spectator sport, it's get the 'ells out of there while you can. Or get ready to join in.

--

Revenge rp is a little iffy, best to wait a day or so and send them a tell saying "You know I'll be hunting you ICly for what your character did, ectect, just a friendly warning"

To avoid some bad ooc feelings:

Don't come back 15min later unless there is a RP reason, Not the ooc respawn...(lay there in the road til someone comes along then let them save you Icly, if wanting to hunt for revenge sooner than a day)

--

Try not to give into those pride gaming emotions!

--

Don't forget to screen shot, because in Pvp, 'eventually' there's going to be an ooc issue of some kind.

I believe revenge RP is perfectly fine. Mago, you said that people wouldnt remember. I would think, if it wasnt an assassination (Whcih, for me, usually results in my own, willful perma-death) I would think that he would remember who swung the sword at his cheek before it all went black.

Revenge shoul never be played out in the same day your death happened. General rule of thumb.

The Silent Whisper wrote:

Would you feel the same way about revenge PvP where neither of them was killed? For example - one character owes another character something and was not given it, thus seeking revenge?

The example isn't very specific. But, if one character is in debt to another character, I wouldn't categorize it as revenge PvP. It's just IC consequences for IC actions. Which is often what initiates most PvP encounters.

Revenge PvP can be good and rewarding, when it's put into a storyline with focus on progressive RP rather than back-to-back PK'ing.

9 times out of 10, that's not the case, however.

PvP Situations. Discussion, no flaming or specific incidents

Who is online