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soundofastream
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 Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 6:29 AM |
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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Galenson wrote: soundofastream wrote: Disable the spawn (Evards Black Tentacles, etc) and let your summons finish them. (that is, don't sit back in invis/gs).
This option will make you run out of spells very quickly, leaving you vulnerable for about 7 mins or just plain ineffective for about half the time from the time you've run out of disabling spells.
Another option is to buff your summons to high hell and sit in GS. This option is less risky and you can generally last close to 12 mins, leaving the last 3 mins before rest time to throw down some disablers.
But, the summons is your chief means of Cannon, since, spells don't really do enough damage without running out quickly. That's a limitation and adaption effect due to the 15 minute intervals between rest periods. If you could rest any time, obviously there would be different mage tactics and spell cannons would be in more common use. Precisely my point and precisely why, currently, I feel the summons need to not be nerfed. Yes, I prefer to join a party but that's not always possible. It may look like a mage is sitting back in GS being smug, but in reality, that's not why they do it. They do it because, they have low AC and low HP, finite spells that rarely last 15 mins in assault mode and monsters with AI's geared to take out spell casters first.
_________________
Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess
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ainjyll
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 7:53 AM |
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Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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Blackdragon12121 wrote: EDK should be more powerful than the death domain summon. Actually, let me rephrase that. EDK should be significantly more powerful than the death domain summon. The crux of the EDK should be that it has a very short duration so its something to be used for a tough fight or when the proverbial hits the fan in a tough fight.
Why? Why should a person be more rewarded for taking one feat in a class that they only have to take 23 levels in (leaving up to 7 levels for whatever other classes they want) be more rewarded to than someone who devotes 28 levels to a class?
With between 5 and 7 levels to play with (depending on ECL) you can get some good benefits from other classes. With 2 or no levels to play with (once again, depending on ECL) you can't really get much.
It's kind of one of the main tenets of taking a class.... the more levels you take in that class, the more powerful you become. Therefore someone who has to devote 28 levels to a class for a summon should get a better one than someone who only has to devote 23. _________________  "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 9:35 AM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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How long is the deathless paragon summoned for? Is it 2440 seconds or something like that akin to the lower level death summons?
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Evil-Wizard
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 9:39 AM |
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Joined: 28 Jan 2009
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ainjyll wrote: Why? Why should a person be more rewarded for taking one feat in a class that they only have to take 23 levels in (leaving up to 7 levels for whatever other classes they want) be more rewarded to than someone who devotes 28 levels to a class?
To balance the Death Domain against other domains. If one domain gives a benefit better than an already powerful epic feat, it lets domains like good, earth or destruction seem a bit lacking.
I'm all for more attraction to the dark side (seduction without reward doesn't work well), but I understand there's an issue here IF the death domain should really be more powerful than the EDK (which I don't know).
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Uberuce
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 9:53 AM |
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Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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The price an arcane caster pays for being able to offload a couple of thousand points of unresistable damage into a target, with them being able to do very little about it, is that you can only do it once a day.
The price a buffertank pays for their independence is that they really suck when their buffs are uncast or expired.
The price a pure tank pays for their monstrous power when buffed is that they need someone around willing and able to do it.
However....there's a problem. On Amia, the summons an arcane caster gets are so damagey that it doesn't really matter that they only have enough juice for one or two groups. They don't pay their price.
The question I ask is: how much do you have to downscale when you can't find a party?
For any build I've made based around epic summons/dominates(I've made four), the answer has been: not one bit, except for Ubala the pure Ranger. It's been slower, but not unworkably so.
Makes no difference for choice of bosses.
(Ubala pretty much lived in the Frozen Wastes when alone; dead as a doornail unless she had a Manticore and no pesky Dismissal spammers to waste the Bacon of Dhoom.)
For my buffertanks(I've made four), I've had to drop down one tier. So for example, if I had been doing the Manor/Abyss in party, I'd drop to Mindflayers/Sahuagin. They could sometimes survive soloing there, but weighing XP/hour and risk meant I wouldn't.
For bosses, I skip the harder ones without a buddy.
For my pure melee builds (I've made six), it's been down by two or three tiers for all but Sturli, who is in my opinion the best PvM buffless build Amia allows.
Same for bosses.
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Evil-Wizard
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 10:03 AM |
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Joined: 28 Jan 2009
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If the EDK is so powerful, wouldn't a cleric with powerful domains make better use of it? In my (limited) experience, the dragon is lacking in defenses, and needs a lot of healing. Can be done with potions, yes, but is much cheaper and more convenient when done with spells.
Control Undead is available to both, too.
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soundofastream
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 10:03 AM |
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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I would love to see a mage solo the abyss, without GS and without a summons...
Yes, I've seen loads of clericy/RDDs and other fighter types do it...
No, I've not yet seen a mage that could do it without a summons or going VERY slowly...Basically, they run out of oomph real fast..
_________________
Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 10:24 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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soundofastream wrote: I would love to see a mage solo the abyss, without GS and without a summons...
Yes, I've seen loads of clericy/RDDs and other fighter types do it...
No, I've not yet seen a mage that could do it without a summons or going VERY slowly...Basically, they run out of oomph real fast..
If Caster + Summon = Ability to Solo, then clearly Summon is too Powerful.
If Caster + No Summon = Inability to Solo, who cares; Amia's spawns are built for parties.
Rule of Thumb - If any ability permits you to freely solo with relative ease or lack of significant risk, then that ability is a viable alternative to getting a @#$%ing party.
Ideally, no ability should permit that. And yes, I'm well aware that other abilities meet this parameter as well - and I would love to see each of them reduced to a pile of smouldering dust, or at least to a point where they are a support - not a replacement.
I do, however, thank you for pointing out that mages can't effectively solo without a summon or GS. It's a point I would love to emphasise with the above in mind.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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soundofastream
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 10:30 AM |
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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You have a point, I guess...well, in that case, since it would be an across the board look at Balance and builds, I'd go with that. 
_________________
Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess
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Mr T
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 19:23 PM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Location: England
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Quote: Why? Why should a person be more rewarded for taking one feat in a class that they only have to take 23 levels in (leaving up to 7 levels for whatever other classes they want) be more rewarded to than someone who devotes 28 levels to a class?
Because maybe, just maybe the domains are *extra* features of an already powerful class? There is no reason at all for the death summon to be so strong. Quote: freely solo with relative ease or lack of significant risk, then that ability is a viable alternative to getting a @#$%ing party.
Haha playing a pure wiz not juiced up on pally/blackguard 'roids or even the minor performance enhancer known as rog tumble-dump/full plate-still spell gish is anything but risk free. I have played most class archetypes on amia and i'll tell you now the wiz is the most fragile and scary to play. True the tanks/buff tanks might suck unbuffed, stealth types may lack endurance but nothing goes down faster than a wiz caught in melee.And its not *that* unlikely to happen.
Mr T
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 19:24 PM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Sounds like you don't know what you're doing then.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Jan Busta
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 19:46 PM |
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Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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Well seeing as this thread has evolved into a general summons discussion in any cae, for my two cents I agree with both Ron and Ruce. Ruce's scale down assessment says everything.
_________________
Low status stumpies read stumpymoose.com
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Mr T
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 20:04 PM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Location: England
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Quote: Sounds like you don't know what you're doing then.
Right on time the sarcastic condescending daily words of wisdom from Tormak .
Amazingly as it sounds I do know what I'm doing but the above points are for a *solo* wiz/sorc not hiding back invisable/GS somehow *never* get into melee range. Additionally if they ever get there people ascertaining that the spawns fail to kill said wiz/sorc...
Anyway believe what you want.
Mr T
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 20:34 PM |
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Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Quote: Haha playing a pure wiz not juiced up on pally/blackguard 'roids or even the minor performance enhancer known as rog tumble-dump/full plate-still spell gish is anything but risk free. I have played most class archetypes on amia and i'll tell you now the wiz is the most fragile and scary to play. True the tanks/buff tanks might suck unbuffed, stealth types may lack endurance but nothing goes down faster than a wiz caught in melee.And its not *that* unlikely to happen.
Manage your spells appropriately, do your research, and you'll find that a mage can and will solo almost any area with summons and invisibility. If a target can never roll an attack roll against you or target you with a spell, then your saves, AC, and HP do not matter. This is bad.
You have infinite AC against someone who cannot attack you. You have infinite saves against someone who cannot target you with spells. You have infinite HP against someone who cannot hurt you.
Removing the Summons from the equation means it's considerably harder (impossible in some areas) for mages to solo. This is good. Amia isn't a server built around soloing and being an antosocial prick - you should be getting a party.
And if the above quote is while in a party, then you really, really need to learn how to use your spells.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 20:36 PM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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TormakSaber wrote: Sounds like you don't know what you're doing then.
Heh sometimes I wonder if you've EVER played a pure wiz.
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Halen_Van
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 20:43 PM |
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Joined: 21 Nov 2005
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Thing I don't like about mages is that is seems to be in order to solo anything, you have to have summons + spell to keep you out of combat.
Evocation needs some love.
_________________ "Freedom is the Right of all sentient beings."
-Optimus Prime.
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xordae
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 20:47 PM |
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Joined: 01 Jul 2005
Location: Germany
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Indeed it does. Good thing that for summons & buffings you don't need squat in spellschools. So you could just be a nice and *cough* boring helper Mage up 'till 30 where you drop all your fancy buffs for 10 x Great Thunderclap and 30 different variations of Fireball.
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Cori
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 20:48 PM |
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Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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I think Tormak's statement is in fact, NOT condescending, and rather accurate.
I think this, because I've played a pure mage. There were many times where I was invincible. And most of the times when I wasn't, it was MY lack of skill and class knowledge.
So....yeah. Ron and Tormak are pretty much on the money, based on my experience wtih a pure mage. Hells, I get and have gotten, most of my class-related or spell-related advice, from Tormak. 'Cause he actually knows a lot. As does Ron, but he's an Aussie, so he doesn't count.
_________________ Role with the Punches...
Elan: A 10% chance is pretty unlikely, but everyone knows that a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing!
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Sakkran
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 20:50 PM |
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Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Location: The Hive Ward, Sigil
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Cori wrote: As does Ron, but he's an Aussie, so he doesn't count.
My experiences are the same as Ron's, for the most part. So, in spite of it not counting, it's accurate.
_________________
Morgan Blancrest: The Rage from The Cage
Lucas Baker: Humble Swordsman
Wesley Fletcher: Greasemonkey Extraordonaire
Also known as: EmoPinata
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Mr T
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 22:37 PM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Location: England
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Quote: Manage your spells appropriately, do your research, and you'll find that a mage can and will solo almost any area with summons and invisibility
Where there is Tweedle-dee you will also find Tweedle-dum  *read* the post. I never said it was hard to solo with a summon and GS/invisibility. My post is in answer to those who want to nerf summons in the aftermath of GS nerfing (not that I ever used that spell). Anyway my breath (and typing time) are precious to me, so...
Mr T
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 22:38 PM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Yes, and dear Tweedle Dum, you didn't read his post.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Mr T
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 22:48 PM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Location: England
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For ths *last time* Quote: Manage your spells appropriately, do your research, and you'll find that a mage can and will solo almost any area with summons and invisibility I never disagreed with this... Quote: You have infinite AC against someone who cannot attack you. You have infinite saves against someone who cannot target you with spells. You have infinite HP against someone who cannot hurt you.
True, if you use invisibility (not guaranteed) or GS. Again I did not disagree. Quote: Removing the Summons from the equation means it's considerably harder (impossible in some areas) for mages to solo. This is good. Amia isn't a server built around soloing and being an antosocial prick - you should be getting a party.
Surprisingly I agree! However *if* you do this it is one step closer to almost everyone playing a self-contained buff-tank, and the wiz will need alot of help with spells that will allow them to *continually* kill things. (Ironically removing tactics and making the game more like an MMORPG where everyone does the same DPS).
Mr T
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 22:58 PM |
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Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Mr T wrote: However *if* you do this it is one step closer to almost everyone playing a self-contained buff-tank, and the wiz will need alot of help with spells that will allow them to *continually* kill things. (Ironically removing tactics and making the game more like an MMORPG where everyone does the same DPS).
Mr T
Or, alternatively, people will be required to actually seek assistance and (as I enjoy typing as much as saying) get a @#$%ing party.
Mages are bloody useful in parties, but the summons permit them to hunt easily due to having a Tank On Demand at all times to substitute for a party.
Whereas, most others cannot and require the assistance of another, whether it be a buffer or healbot or flanking buddy.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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ainjyll
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 23:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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Mr T wrote: Quote: Why? Why should a person be more rewarded for taking one feat in a class that they only have to take 23 levels in (leaving up to 7 levels for whatever other classes they want) be more rewarded to than someone who devotes 28 levels to a class?
Because maybe, just maybe the domains are *extra* features of an already powerful class? There is no reason at all for the death summon to be so strong. That didn't answer my question.
And as I've seen said numerous times here on the forums and as I agree, Sorc's are the most powerful class in the game if played properly.
It seems to me that the classes are pretty well balanced. I don't think that the summons need any nerfing, but if they are, every summons should be given equal examination and should all be nerfed where needed. _________________ "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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Mr T
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 23:11 PM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Location: England
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Quote: Mages are bloody useful in parties, but the summons permit them to hunt easily due to having a Tank On Demand
(My lord I'm still posting  ) As can clerics, druids (2 even), PM, rangers and blackguards(admitted nothing to right home about until epic). I just do not understand the unreasoning wiz/sor hate. Yes you are (as I have said many times) 99% invincible, but when the proverbial hits the fan and something *does* get in your face the wiz/sor *is* weaker than the above. That is all I said.
Mr T
Last edited by Mr T on Tue, Feb 10 2009, 23:26 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Halen_Van
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 23:15 PM |
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Joined: 21 Nov 2005
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The only thing that riles me about mages is that comes down to summons and buffing. It used to be you could huck fireballs at things and get some decent damage on critters. Now it seems futile to be an evocationalist.
_________________ "Freedom is the Right of all sentient beings."
-Optimus Prime.
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Halecta
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 23:25 PM |
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Joined: 10 Jul 2008
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I have personally witnessed builds with dev crit that can solo the abyss and most epic bosses without needing any summons.
Dev Crit is the same thing as a Epic summon
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 23:27 PM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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ainjyll wrote: Mr T wrote: Quote: Why? Why should a person be more rewarded for taking one feat in a class that they only have to take 23 levels in (leaving up to 7 levels for whatever other classes they want) be more rewarded to than someone who devotes 28 levels to a class?
Because maybe, just maybe the domains are *extra* features of an already powerful class? There is no reason at all for the death summon to be so strong. That didn't answer my question. And as I've seen said numerous times here on the forums and as I agree, Sorc's are the most powerful class in the game if played properly. It seems to me that the classes are pretty well balanced. I don't think that the summons need any nerfing, but if they are, every summons should be given equal examination and should all be nerfed where needed. Domains are there to give clericssome RP versatility first and foremost. The death domain summon has to be weaker to bring it down to the level of the other domains, or alternative, it hould kick ass but have a much shorter duration.
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 23:32 PM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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Antisocial prick? Thats a lil much there won-won. Often its difficult to find a party that doesnt just wanna run the spires for the umpteenth time.
Solo-ing as a wizard is suprisingly easy as long as you sit in invis/GS and dont do anything else. In fact, the only classes that has it easier is druids and clerics. Woe-betide you try and use any other spells save horrid wilting or a very few notable others. Lets be honest, take away summons power and all wizards will be are buff tanks. Save for EDK and a few other notable summons, the summons really are sub par to fighters. No wizard can hope to put out as much damage as even a poorly built fighter or barb. And lets not even Dev Crit into the mix. Sure maybe they can damage a whole group but it very mediocre at best and thats just not good enough. Lets be honest, amia is built for characters that run up and hit stuff. That never fails whereas you have brog orcs, for no IC reason as far as I know being immune to fear and therefore weird, phantasmal killer etc. All the fighter needs to worry about is is it crittable or not.
Lets face it, the people who benefit most from the wizards abilities is EVERYONE else. I cant remember exactly which post or topic but i just had to chuckle slightly when someone mentioned there sheer digust at when a wizard tries to play as an evoker and use fireball over keen and GMW. Thats just how amia is. Which bring me onto what Halen van mentioned with evocation sorely lacking. Sorely...
Last edited by Blackdragon12121 on Tue, Feb 10 2009, 23:44 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Halen_Van
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 23:34 PM |
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Joined: 21 Nov 2005
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Make generic spell components, have every spell use up X components based on power, and make spells something powerful but sometimes inconvenient/pricey to use.
_________________ "Freedom is the Right of all sentient beings."
-Optimus Prime.
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Evil-Wizard
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 23:40 PM |
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Joined: 28 Jan 2009
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I still don't understand why there're so many complaints about "mages". What about clerics and druids? They have the same summons, basically the same buffing capabilities (may depend on domains), and heals. Why the hate towards mages? Or is that meant to include all primary caster classes?
Quote: Make generic spell components, have every spell use up X components based on power, and make spells something powerful but sometimes inconvenient/pricey to use.
Introducing things just to make a certain class not -fun- to play anymore ain't good balancing.
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soundofastream
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 23:44 PM |
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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WonWon wrote: Mr T wrote: However *if* you do this it is one step closer to almost everyone playing a self-contained buff-tank, and the wiz will need alot of help with spells that will allow them to *continually* kill things. (Ironically removing tactics and making the game more like an MMORPG where everyone does the same DPS).
Mr T Or, alternatively, people will be required to actually seek assistance and (as I enjoy typing as much as saying) get a @#$%ing party. Mages are bloody useful in parties, but the summons permit them to hunt easily due to having a Tank On Demand at all times to substitute for a party. Whereas, most others cannot and require the assistance of another, whether it be a buffer or healbot or flanking buddy. Why are mages being singled out? HIPS allows Shadow Dancers to solo tough areas (your favourite class no?). My Svirfneblin Druidess can almost solo everything up until the Bastion in PvM (even better than my wizzy can) with NO GS. Clerics spells can buff their summons to high heavens, even more in some aspects, than mages can...
Fact is, ALL spellcasters can solo areas and even HIPS spamming SDs. Reducing spellcasters to Buffbots or Medics for a party isn't much fun to be honest. I don't mind buffing tanks/canons to high heavens -when- I've got a party, but as demonstrated last night, I was on B, there were 2 epics on and my level 17/18th wizard....
So I'm to stand around Cordor giggling instead whilst waiting all night for a party to turn up (when the yanks log in finally and its time for bed over here)? Simply because it must be my fault I can't find a party?
_________________
Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess
Last edited by soundofastream on Tue, Feb 10 2009, 23:47 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 23:45 PM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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Halen_Van wrote: Make generic spell components, have every spell use up X components based on power, and make spells something powerful but sometimes inconvenient/pricey to use.
Im all for that, 110%
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Evil-Wizard
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 23:51 PM |
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Joined: 28 Jan 2009
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How would making spells cost money help? If it's about soloing, then target soloing, e. g. by cutting xp gain by 50% if not in a party. If it's about summons, then nerf them to cinders (or just remove all summoning, DevCrit, Epic Dodge and all those other powergamy things). But nerfing spellcasting in general?
And why with adding costs of all things? You do notice this would effect buffs cast on others while grouping, don't you? This might even increase the attraction of soloing, as you tend to make more money when soloing afaik. And seriously, would you like to haggle for every buff cast on you in a group? Or have the casters demand extra loot to compensate for their increased costs? It's just... inconvenient for everybody.
Last edited by Evil-Wizard on Wed, Feb 11 2009, 0:04 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Cori
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Posted: Tue, Feb 10 2009, 23:56 PM |
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Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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We've had spell components for spells before. And i think timestop still uses one.
It's rather pointless, particularly in todays multi-millionaire version of amia.
It ends up simply being an annoyance, more than anything.
When firebrand had a component, i kept 2 bags of holding full of that component at all times, on my sorceress. You can see that I *still* have those, because I just sold them as a collectors item in a forum auction.
Didn't even slow me down from using firebrand. It is one of the very few spells that's useful, so component or no, I used it. Whereas icestorm is only even close to useful if maximised or empowered at the very least. Scintillating sphere looks pretty. That's about all it does. Much the same with fireball.
My sorceress is a buffbot. Be it for a party, or her summons, it's the only way to run. My Blackguard can solo tons of things. Not because of the summons. They blow, actually. But because she has good gear. And some things, she can power through if she has a party, but certainly not alone.
My cleric is *just* getting to the point where she has enough spellslots to be a good buffer *and* be able to fight usefully with divine favor/power. I've no doubt she'll be a thousand times better than my sorceress, when she gets to the same level.
_________________ Role with the Punches...
Elan: A 10% chance is pretty unlikely, but everyone knows that a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing!
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Yossarin
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Posted: Wed, Feb 11 2009, 0:18 AM |
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Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Blackdragon12121 wrote: Halen_Van wrote: Make generic spell components, have every spell use up X components based on power, and make spells something powerful but sometimes inconvenient/pricey to use. Im all for that, 110% Only if we add a eschew material components feat. 
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Drannok
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Posted: Wed, Feb 11 2009, 0:33 AM |
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Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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Even in PnP, Evocation is the crap school.
Even in PnP, the most effect Wizards are the Conjurers and Necromancers and Enchanters, with a spare fireball just in case.
It's not just in NWN that Evocation is da poop and Summons and Control are better.
The best blaster you can make, in fact, uses Conjuration, Transmutation, or the grand daddy of all instant win spells, Enervation (necromancy).
Why enervation? Meta Magic and Incantrix Abuse. Maximized empowered split ray double spell fel drain enervation (Yes, this is doable with incantrix)
40+8d6 negative levels... no save.
Core only Version? Weaker, but still doable. But in Core only, Disintigrate is better. That's transmutation. And for big areas, Horrid Wilting.
As for summons? There's all kinds of summoning cheese. Just infinite amounts of it. Not worth going into.
Evocation? There's simply no way to justify it within 3.x DnD. Except that it is kinda cool, which is enough for RP.
_________________
Drannok Stranvil - Mystran Loremaster
Rugnar Wildbrew - Dwarvern Scout
El'thanion Nuleaf - Wood Elf Shifter (Inactive)
Thayzin Goldenmaul - Gold Dwarf Paladin of Moradin (Inactive)
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Wed, Feb 11 2009, 0:37 AM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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Enervation is one of the WEAKEST spells in NWN esp PVM as losing character levels does very little except drop your saves and skills slightly
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Drannok
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Posted: Wed, Feb 11 2009, 0:40 AM |
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Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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Blackdragon12121 wrote: Enervation is one of the WEAKEST spells in NWN esp PVM as losing character levels does very little except drop your saves and skills slightly
...
...
Are you aware of what happens when you hit level 0?
Furthermore, the NWN Enervation is ruined by the fort save (which isn't supposed to be there) and no meta magic stacking.
Also, for Save or Lose Mages, a couple of Enervations is the difference between instant clean death/stun and little chance of success.
It's a terribly effective spell, just requires setup, and a willingness to use a very evil spell.
_________________
Drannok Stranvil - Mystran Loremaster
Rugnar Wildbrew - Dwarvern Scout
El'thanion Nuleaf - Wood Elf Shifter (Inactive)
Thayzin Goldenmaul - Gold Dwarf Paladin of Moradin (Inactive)
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Wed, Feb 11 2009, 1:00 AM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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Yes, they die and its still weak. according to the wiki its meant to affect ab as well but ive never noticed this. Its only ever been a minor annoyance. And even draining 2d4 levels with Energy drain its still a horrible waste of a turn PVP (while your there setting up the mage has already Bigby'ed you into oblivion) I suppose i could use the majority of my 9th level slots to take at least 4 energy drains to have the slimmest chance (1/16th) of killing my level 30 opponent. It would be satisfying to say the least. PVM well...just use wail...and I hate to say this as i love to have variety in the spells i use. As it is, you might as well just bring out the shades and kill them that way.
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Drannok
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Posted: Wed, Feb 11 2009, 1:11 AM |
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Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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Energy Drain is terrible because it's a level 9 spell.
The point of Enervation is to lower saves. That's how mages kill giant saving throw and hitpoint walls. Generally, against most hitpoint walls, You don't need it because you can just demolish their will saves. But then you still need a summon or something finish the job (unless it's an outsider).
But there a couple of things a High Ac Tank Necromancer can do that are rather impressive. Such as kill a super monk (or force a smart one to run/chug a bag of potions).
It's a different type of combo and build, that is rarely used (on amia) because it's difficult to pull off and there are so few super monks.
Mages power is ~massively~ reduced in NWN, and yet still are the most dangerous foes on a battlefield. It's because they have an unbelievably variable number of ways to kill or stop you, and as it turns out, damage isn't the most effective way.
_________________
Drannok Stranvil - Mystran Loremaster
Rugnar Wildbrew - Dwarvern Scout
El'thanion Nuleaf - Wood Elf Shifter (Inactive)
Thayzin Goldenmaul - Gold Dwarf Paladin of Moradin (Inactive)
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Wed, Feb 11 2009, 1:24 AM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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LOL, you say Eneergy Drain is terrible and then advocate Enervation?
Energy Drain may be level 9 but it does exactly what you want Enervation to do, twice as well, with +5 DC.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Drannok
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Posted: Wed, Feb 11 2009, 1:29 AM |
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Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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The problem with energy drain, is it sucks up the Mord's you need and frankly, there are better uses for level 9 slots.
Also, I always forget about the stupid save in NWN. It's what really trashed Enervation and Energy Drain, granted I will admit they'd be used by everyone if it was removed.
If an Energy Drain is going to land, might as well just use Wail instead.
I play ~alot~ of PnP, and get my wires crossed often. It's weird to go from one high level caster, where enervation is my favorite spell, to Amia, where it's a steaming pile.
_________________
Drannok Stranvil - Mystran Loremaster
Rugnar Wildbrew - Dwarvern Scout
El'thanion Nuleaf - Wood Elf Shifter (Inactive)
Thayzin Goldenmaul - Gold Dwarf Paladin of Moradin (Inactive)
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soundofastream
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Posted: Wed, Feb 11 2009, 1:32 AM |
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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But summons are your only real means of sustainable damage over 15 minutes because you run out of disabler spells within 7 mins, unless you rely upon wands nonstop after that.
Nerf a summons to the point that it'll die easily against a hoarde of spawns and most mages will just become buff bots for parties IF they can find one and IF NOT, won't dare adventure (why bother if you won't last 2 seconds against Sahuagin who deal 70 damage per hit and saves of 46 against will and fort saves...). A fighter can handle it, solo if buffed (most of them have rogue levels for self-buffing). A wizard that has weak summons cannot. My juggy lasts 2 seconds against them...
_________________
Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Wed, Feb 11 2009, 1:53 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Quote: If an Energy Drain is going to land, might as well just use Wail instead.
Correct. I was just saying, your wires were crossed.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Uberuce
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Posted: Wed, Feb 11 2009, 7:01 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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Blackdragon and Halen wrote: I can only kill three things per day then I suck. So to balance that I should be able to kill mobs all day too. Those three things can be gods on steroids and they're still dead meat. So....no?
Edit: Blackdragon, that was me talking about GMW/Keen versus Fireball. I notice you didn't mention the bit a line or so down where I said "You get your chance to be the Cannon when it's boss/PvP time"
Last edited by Uberuce on Wed, Feb 11 2009, 8:27 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Mr T
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Posted: Wed, Feb 11 2009, 7:32 AM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Location: England
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Quote: The point of Enervation is to lower saves
This is the problem in Amia tho. Why go through all that set up to lower a creatures saves to make them more vulnerable to something else when you could just cast the aforementioned wail? If energy drain (or god forbid the horribly weaker enervation) was going to work then surely wail would too and, oh look what wail does on a failed save...
Face it, there is no *time* in this game for enervation, damage over time etc, the fighter types would of killed any individual spawn by the time you've finished faffing (and wasting valuable summon/buff/''real'' debuff slots) with a spell like enervation.
And iof once again you don't believe me? Try it, just try it...
edit: its late here and i just read the rest, I agree with you Dran, and remain very sad that the enervation line are so lacklustre in Amia...
Mr T
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Wed, Feb 11 2009, 8:25 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Uberuce wrote: Blackdragon and Halen wrote: I can only kill three things per day then I suck. So to balance that I should be able to kill mobs all day too. Those three things can be gods on steroids and they're still dead meat. So....no? Case in Point - Elvithiir and Narathiir vs Dark Flight (five level 50 buffed dragons).
That was epic.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Wed, Feb 11 2009, 8:35 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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To be fair that was the old Flight, not my Flight. Mine would hard tor them to hell and back. (or so I like to think)
And it was 6 v 2. Red/white/Blue/Black/Green/Shadow.
Roughly... 3 minutes I think it was.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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soundofastream
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Posted: Wed, Feb 11 2009, 8:37 AM |
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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Anyway, I'm going to give it a go. I'll try with a weak summons (to emulate nerfing the level 9 ones) and just lots of disabler spells and see if I can last the distance against Desert Asabi, etc (that Lost River area on B) with my level 18. Would an Effigy be nerfed enough equivalent to emulate the nerfing you want Won Won for level 9 summons?
I'll let you know how it goes. I'll see if I can last the full 15 mins. If I can get a level 18 tank or cannon to try the same area and see how they go in the same area without a summons, we can compare some notes on experience there.
_________________
Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess
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