In the case of eating something that is bigger then your normal form, ie you change into a dragon and eat a cow as stated. I would assume you would still have a cow in your stomach except that it would be shrunk to be the size that would fit into stomach without harming you.
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
There we go - thanks Herkles!
We now have a good, believable IC reason - everything shrinks to stop you from dying when the spell ends - and suspension of disbelief is preserved.
This even has precedence - you can only summon a summon in the game where it can survive - no summoning a gorgon 100ft in the air above someone.
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Actually if you ate a cow in dragon form and it wasn't digested fully, when you became a human what was left of the cow would burst out of you. The reason is the same as when you return to human form and your HP hit zero, and you die. I played a shifter before. A fully digested cow would become part of you and nothing would happen.
In terms of Beastiality it only applies to animals YOU CANNOT HAVE CHILDREN WITH. Anything you could have a baby with, you're realated to in some small way. It's the reason why you see half dragons and half drows, but no half human-half sheep creatures, unless you count the evil Were-sheep, But were creatures are not born through sex with said were-animal. It's Lycanthrope.
If you can find anything saying "all races are related" then good on you. You won't find it, though, because it isn't there. The reason different species of creatures can interbreed is "magic." That's it. It's not more complex than that.
If you can find anything saying "all races are related" then good on you. You won't find it, though, because it isn't there. The reason different species of creatures can interbreed is "magic." That's it. It's not more complex than that.
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
Chillmarrow wrote:
If you can find anything saying "all races are related" then good on you. You won't find it, though, because it isn't there. The reason different species of creatures can interbreed is "magic." That's it. It's not more complex than that.
Ummm ... has there been any canon on whether humans and elves can procreate in a dead magic field?
Because if they can or can't, either way is argument solved - if they can, then the races are obviously related, if not then it is obviously magic.
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Ummm ... has there been any canon on whether humans and elves can procreate in a dead magic field? Because if they can or can't, either way is argument solved - if they can, then the races are obviously related, if not then it is obviously magic.
As far as Chill's earlier comment about independent creations, I guess that technically that would make, say, elves and humans separate 'species' in that evolutionarily they have no common ancestor. As for whether they can breed where no magic is involved, my personal opinion would be that probably most of the player races can, simply because the gods used similar, compatible templates (lack of imagination ). The farther afield you go, however, the more magic must be involved in order to allow conception and the ability to carry the fetus to term. Dragons, for example, probably wouldnt even exist where there was no magic. We all know that magic overrules both chemistry and physics, and thus, it follows logically, biology.
As far as eating cows, I would say that on shifting back to human form, the ratio of the mass of the object eaten to the mass of the eater is preserved, with the extra mass going wherever magic sends it.
And please, can everyone get off their high horses about cybering and the BoEF? It's an amusing book, but if you feel obligated to point out that it's not your particular cup of tea, just politely say so and politely choke back your opinions of everyone else. And because someone asks a question, it doesnt mean they're planning a half orc - half sheep PC. May as well slag the scholars who debated premillenialism vs postmillenialism or homoousia vs homoiousia.
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Chillmarrow wrote:
Yurell wrote:
Ummm ... has there been any canon on whether humans and elves can procreate in a dead magic field? Because if they can or can't, either way is argument solved - if they can, then the races are obviously related, if not then it is obviously magic.
Will you please come up with an argument, rather than pictures? They may be able to interbreed - if you can show me a source that is canon that says that they can't in a dead magic zone I will concede the point. At the moment it's just an open question.
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Stop trying to apply reality's laws and boundaries to fiction. A great enjoyable part of fantasy is that explanations aren't needed for why gravity works and "what magic really is". Science can be as pseudo-alchemic as one wants it to be. So leave it be. It's not important at all whether or not these things are from an evolutionary standpoint because, in Faerun, there may be no evolution at all.
Joined: 12 Oct 2005 Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
Well, I'm going to go back to the topic and point this logic out.
Amia is the ONLY top side place to have hordes of surface Drow. If mating as a shifted creature caused offspring of said shifted form, then it would only take a few rapists shifters to change things.
So I'd say it's your original form.
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Do elves and humans have the same temperature and alkalinity? (ergo Half-elves/ Half-drow/) perhaps biologically it would be possible for a drow and elf to uh 'get together' ..if they didn't kill eachother first. Maby a nymph or succubus/celestial may have the same temperature and alkalinity as a human? (ergo Teiflings/Aasimars and whatever a Nymph would make
lmao i don't really care its just fun to see Tormak take on 4-5 people at a time, his patience on the matter is staggering, I expected the lock button ages ago...
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
Champion of Helm wrote:
The point Chillmarrow is making is this:
It doesn't matter.
Stop trying to apply reality's laws and boundaries to fiction. A great enjoyable part of fantasy is that explanations aren't needed for why gravity works and "what magic really is". Science can be as pseudo-alchemic as one wants it to be. So leave it be. It's not important at all whether or not these things are from an evolutionary standpoint because, in Faerun, there may be no evolution at all.
The point Chillmarrow was making was this:
Chillmarrow wrote:
If you can find anything saying "all races are related" then good on you. You won't find it, though, because it isn't there. The reason different species of creatures can interbreed is "magic." That's it. It's not more complex than that.
The question was being asked whether elf/human cross-breeding can occur naturally or whether it requires magic.
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Do elves and humans have the same temperature and alkalinity? (ergo Half-elves/ Half-drow/) perhaps biologically it would be possible for a drow and elf to uh 'get together' ..if they didn't kill eachother first. Maby a nymph or succubus/celestial may have the same temperature and alkalinity as a human? (ergo Teiflings/Aasimars and whatever a Nymph would make
lmao i don't really care its just fun to see Tormak take on 4-5 people at a time, his patience on the matter is staggering, I expected the lock button ages ago...
Actually if you ate a cow in dragon form and it wasn't digested fully, when you became a human what was left of the cow would burst out of you. The reason is the same as when you return to human form and your HP hit zero, and you die. I played a shifter before. A fully digested cow would become part of you and nothing would happen.
This is not completely true. The following quote from Masters of the Wild would suggest that, indeed, the cow remains in normal size:
Quote:
When the change occurs, the druid's equipment, if any, melds into her new form and becomes nonfunctional. Material components and focuses melded in this way cannot be used to cast spells. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the animal form reappear in the same locations they previously were and are once again functional. Any new items the druid wore in animal form (such as a saddle, rider, or halter) fall off and land at her feet; any that she carried in a body part common to both forms (mouth, hands, or the like) at the time of reversion are still held in the same way.
However, I'm quite certain there's a certain restriction to all shapechanging: you cannot shapechange into occupied space. I may be wrong with this, as I cannot find the reference, but I seem to recall that not being allowed. In this case, the shapechange would stop once the cow in your stomach began to get in the way.
As for this topic in general, I'll ask everyone not interested in the debate to haul their arses out of the discussion. The thread was specifically created for an academic discussion on a more or less interesting theoretical question. If you're not interested, don't take part. It's that simple.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Humans and drow are not the same species. That's bestiality. A human and human is fine; a drow and drow is fine; an orc and an orc is a spork. But mixing them, no matter how similar they are, is bestiality whether the participants are animal-like or not.
The point is still valid despite all the arguing. Elves are a creation from Corellon himself, spilling his blood over early Faerun and creating them with his might and magic. Faerun does not have an evolution like earth, the inhabitants are magic creations, they have gods that are very present. If the various different species can meddle with each other, fine, but for the sake of sanity, don't bring modern science into a fantasy game and just lock this stupid thread.
Do elves and humans have the same temperature and alkalinity? (ergo Half-elves/ Half-drow/) perhaps biologically it would be possible for a drow and elf to uh 'get together' ..if they didn't kill eachother first. Maby a nymph or succubus/celestial may have the same temperature and alkalinity as a human? (ergo Teiflings/Aasimars and whatever a Nymph would make
lmao i don't really care its just fun to see Tormak take on 4-5 people at a time, his patience on the matter is staggering, I expected the lock button ages ago...
kudos ^^
Thinga can interbreed in DnD because they can. Shifters can't have babies in a form other than their "natural form" because they can't.
Why does it need to be *any* more complex than this? I highly doubt any of your PCs are theoretical geneticists where this actually matters, and if I does i'm going to have you find a medical book where every answer is "It's magic".
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Does it work the other way? If a shifter found himself in the desert with hardly any food and water, could he turn into a shrew, eat and drink himself silly on a wee bit of it, then turn into a fully fed and watered camel to walk on out?
Likewise could it turn into an antelope, tearass across the land for twenty miles till it was knackered, shift into an insect with a super-fast metabolism, fully recover for a minute or two and then get back to it?
I thought the act of shifting in and of itself restored the body to 'normal' condition..
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I think that with these questions, if there isn't a clear-cut answer at the time that it comes up, you need to consider whether one answer will actually move the story forward in some way.
In the case of background story, is it going to make an interesting character hook, or is it just a novel 'my character is unique' thingy?
Does it work the other way? If a shifter found himself in the desert with hardly any food and water, could he turn into a shrew, eat and drink himself silly on a wee bit of it, then turn into a fully fed and watered camel to walk on out?
Likewise could it turn into an antelope, tearass across the land for twenty miles till it was knackered, shift into an insect with a super-fast metabolism, fully recover for a minute or two and then get back to it?
Ruce, youre giving me a headache! Damn your logic!
_________________ "Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence" ~ Napoleon Bonaparte. - Clearly, Napoleon never envisioned the Internet......where I'd judge it about 50/50.
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Brown Blur wrote:
Uberuce wrote:
Does it work the other way? If a shifter found himself in the desert with hardly any food and water, could he turn into a shrew, eat and drink himself silly on a wee bit of it, then turn into a fully fed and watered camel to walk on out?
Likewise could it turn into an antelope, tearass across the land for twenty miles till it was knackered, shift into an insect with a super-fast metabolism, fully recover for a minute or two and then get back to it?
Ruce, youre giving me a headache! Damn your logic!
It's a fair enough question, and seems quite a reasonable extension of the logical path we've been on at the moment.
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Chillmarrow wrote:
fffff f uuuhh furriessssssss
I'm getting the strong sensation that you don't like Furries. Just a hunch.
Edit: No constructive comment, whoops. Okay, I agree with Tormak. Sterile is the best answer. Why? Because it is easier as he said, and because that means we can stop having this conversation since it's getting plain weird.
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Uberuce wrote:
Does it work the other way? If a shifter found himself in the desert with hardly any food and water, could he turn into a shrew, eat and drink himself silly on a wee bit of it, then turn into a fully fed and watered camel to walk on out?
Likewise could it turn into an antelope, tearass across the land for twenty miles till it was knackered, shift into an insect with a super-fast metabolism, fully recover for a minute or two and then get back to it?
I believe that if you could actually assume the shape, and become the form - whereas you inherent all the talents , skills and feats (supernatural or not) of the form, then -=yes=-, this would be a fucking masterful use of the skills to become almost a superman, or appear as such.
That's my take on it.
Regards,
_________________ "Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
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Does it work the other way? If a shifter found himself in the desert with hardly any food and water, could he turn into a shrew, eat and drink himself silly on a wee bit of it, then turn into a fully fed and watered camel to walk on out?
Likewise could it turn into an antelope, tearass across the land for twenty miles till it was knackered, shift into an insect with a super-fast metabolism, fully recover for a minute or two and then get back to it?
I guess if you want to follow Iron's take on "food stays the same size in your belly", it wouldn't work like that for the food thing. The metabolism thing... um... no idea.
I would call it good use of shifts though and allow it, but that's me. I just want it crystal clear that I think reporuducing in shifted forms with intent to bear child is stupid stupid stupid.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
My personal opinion is let them have babies, but nothing really freaky. Example: Shifting into a fae will allow fae babies, but not half-fae.
That way, it still keeps things relatively simple, those who wish to have shifter-cyber can (Hopefully on Msn or something else not on the server. Thank the gods I had invisiblity cast. I now cast it whenever I enter the bath-house, or anywhere else, for that matter.), and any race requests can sort themselves out, or require DM approval (For platinum award races).
To put it simply, let them be any race that is in the default NWN or the Amia subrace list. Any shifts that cannot be done this way, simply say they're rendered sterile. Also, someone back near the start of this thread said something about the shifter remaining in their shifted form for approx 24 hours. This also seems good, as it will help dissuade people from trying this.
As to why people would want to actually have shifted sex, well, its up to personal preference. *Has seen every fetish ever*
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I think the ruling was 'no babies', but when you think about it, even when dragons polymorph their children are 'half dragon', not 'half whatever-they-polymorphed-into'
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Hm, last time I was in a discussion like this these were the answers:
- A male shifter is able to impregnate anything, and the baby will take the natural form of the mother.
- A female shifter can only be impregnated by a male of it's base race.
- If said female shifter shifts-shape whilst pregnant, it can seriously ruin and malform the baby or kill it.
There have been cases of Red Dragons shapeshifting into other forms to mate in DnD. Can't remember where I read that though.
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Marauth wrote:
Hm, last time I was in a discussion like this these were the answers:
- A male shifter is able to impregnate anything, and the baby will take the natural form of the mother. - A female shifter can only be impregnated by a male of it's base race. - If said female shifter shifts-shape whilst pregnant, it can seriously ruin and malform the baby or kill it.
There have been cases of Red Dragons shapeshifting into other forms to mate in DnD. Can't remember where I read that though.
Monster Manual under 'Half-Dragon'
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They'd be too big for those tiny wings to carry them around.
That is officially the funniest sentence in this thread.
_________________ "Hi, I'm Garnith, and I'm an Invisophile." Garnith, Ranth, Rick, Burick, Elail, Deryl, Kane, Rini. Suggestion Rule of Thumb: Don't think about how neat it would be to use, think about how neat it would be for people to use against you.
Well, there goes the chance of having a non-disturbing sleep tonight with all these IMAGES going through my head. But yeah, I would imagine shape-shifting into a drow while doing it, won't make the child a drow. I mean, similar things have happened in lore I believe. Although I do miss the times when people explained their half-breed race with, "A wizard did it".
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But nah... common sense! Sterile in all but the original shape.
Unless you're like shifting human -> elf in which case it might work. You would still be treated as your original race when determining offspring or if its even possible to cross-breed/inbreed/breed/lay-eggs/bark like a dog.
_________________ Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.
Humans and drow are not the same species. That's bestiality. A human and human is fine; a drow and drow is fine; an orc and an orc is a spork. But mixing them, no matter how similar they are, is bestiality whether the participants are animal-like or not.
When I used the species term about races if was quicly taken down as, the monster book or whatever takes the humanoids as races, not species.
Humanoids are considered to be a vast collection of races
as different dog types are races to each others, but to us they are species
Got my point? huh?
Yeah, got nothing else to do than meander around the forums.. I want my new char *sniff*
Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
TormakSaber wrote:
Hurrghhh, I roll d20 and stab whoever revived this thread.
It was Garnith! *flees*
In all seriousness, wasn't this resolved months ago with the decision tat one could not procreate in any for but their natural one? was a little surprised it didn't get a lock, since the decsion was made.
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I simply can't believe how long things like this can be discussed. It's fantasy, not academics. DnD, and especially FR is, let's just face it, not that great fantasy. It is not designed for debates about shifters abilities to have offspring's, it's designed for people to have some fun, kill some monsters, steal da loot, rescue the princess and then go home and think about it. And that's it.
People who just keep discussing if it canon or not having grasped that it is all just fun and game and that things like this simply doesn't matter at all.
If this sounds angry it's not meant to be. I'm simply tired and frustrated
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Anders wrote:
I simply can't believe how long things like this can be discussed. It's fantasy, not academics. DnD, and especially FR is, let's just face it, not that great fantasy. It is not designed for debates about shifters abilities to have offspring's, it's designed for people to have some fun, kill some monsters, steal da loot, rescue the princess and then go home and think about it. And that's it.
People who just keep discussing if it canon or not having grasped that it is all just fun and game and that things like this simply doesn't matter at all.
If this sounds angry it's not meant to be. I'm simply tired and frustrated
It's all about immersion - some people require more information for their suspension of disbelief than others. I fit into the category of 'more' I believe.
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Anders wrote:
I simply don't understand why. It's a (censored) game, not real life, your not meant to believe it because it's not real
It's called immersion, for which you need suspension of disbelief. It's what allows the game to flow and be believable, ... that's why here's an entire thread dedicated to lore.
Some people like to be playing in a game universe where they are fighting monsters, instead of being at a computer telling one blob of pixels to attack another
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). The farther afield you go, however, the more magic must be involved in order to allow conception and the ability to carry the fetus to term. Dragons, for example, probably wouldnt even exist where there was no magic. We all know that magic overrules both chemistry and physics, and thus, it follows logically, biology.
), and any race requests can sort themselves out, or require DM approval (For platinum award races).
