AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Build Advice Topic: Mk. IV

Yup
*Toddles of to watch grass grow*

MoshingChris wrote:

Yup
*Toddles of to watch grass grow*

Dynamic environment, aha! You have to read between the lines. *sagenods*

How many spells does a 20+Bard earn from going All Out Charisma? I mean, In comparison to going All out in STR and keeping CHA at 16?
Is it worth it?

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Ability_modifier
Really the wiki should be your homepage buddy.

Basically you'll get an extra level 3,4,5,6 spells per day with a difference between a 10 cha modifier and a 14 cha modifier.

Not worth it.

There's a difference between looking at a sheet, and testing it in the game.

Not in the case of extra spells from modifiers. It is what it is and its not worth the loss of that much AB.

I'm just really bummed out that my Lev 14 bard can barely buff 2 + himself properly due to lack of spells.

Get bonus spell-slot gear.

Quick comparison question:

[Epic Fort (+4 Fort Save)] or [Toughness (+30 health)] // Assume character already has 264 HP
I'm assuming Epic Fort wins?

I'd still say Epic Fort even if you had 150 HP. It's much better.

That's what I figured. Also, I mean to add a question, since it pertains to building in general:

Does Armor Skin stack with items that offer Natural AC bonuses? NWNWiki says 'Multiple items which provide a natural armor bonus will not stack.', but doesn't specify if AC from spells/items/feats can be used in conjunction. Is it like Deflection AC in that respect?

Armor Skin stacks, yup. Even if you had a +5 AC amulet you'd still get the +2 from Armor Skin.

Awesome. I figured it would, would seem kinda stupid if it didn't.

And... crap... just realized that the Armor Skin entry says that XD
My bad on that one, hah

Very_Svensk wrote:

I'm just really bummed out that my Lev 14 bard can barely buff 2 + himself properly due to lack of spells.

L14 is not a good benchmark to gauge.
Consider your character at max level and how you'd like to play him.
More support or more solo?
Taking Divine Might?

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Very_Svensk wrote:

I'm just really bummed out that my Lev 14 bard can barely buff 2 + himself properly due to lack of spells.

L14 is not a good benchmark to gauge.
Consider your character at max level and how you'd like to play him.
More support or more solo?
Taking Divine Might?

For support I'd suggest going 21 Bard at least for lingering song.
If solo: Bard/BG or Priest is a fun build.

20 Bard can take lasting inspiration.

20 Bard 1 Fighter 9 Cleric is rawk.

Well, Due to changed plans - My bard's either Pure or 25/4/1 for parry madness!

You'll wont have much fun with 3 attacks/round if you want parry. Go 23/6/1 then for four attacks. Mind that parry is broken and sucks anyway.

It's pretty much just flavour anyway

Last edited by DireBear on Sun, Jan 23 2011, 18:09 PM, edited 1 time in total.

So I screwed over my sorcerer. I need help fixing it.
I'm going Sorcerer(?)/RDD(10) and maybe some levels in fighter. It seems like, for my character to be worth a damn, I'd have to go melee and support myself with buffs, but I could go for the automatic still spell feats, wear armor, and cast damaging spells as well. Can you guys help me balance casting with melee ability?
edit: I am stuck with RDD, but the amount of RDD I can take is probably flexible.

Balancing melee with magic is the area of a spellsword. Something I know a fair amount from experience.

But, saying that, I've never really got on well with the RDD class at all when making a fairly decent fighter-mage.

There are many subtleties that alter the balance of sustainability and clout. Usually heavy on the magic side. My main spellsword has base 10 strength yet she crits quite often for 75ish damage with a rapier.

Having +7 Strength (easily done with 2 items) from items and +5 from maximized Bull's Strength is a decent way to go. So straight away you can see the benefit of more mage levels than fighter. What fighter classes offer is a bit of AB boost. AC is easily handled from spells up to and including the most useful of all (from a spellsword perspective): Epic Mage Armour. Another incentive to aim for more mage levels.

Having RDD (only in my opinion) only makes things more difficult for you to be a decent fighter-mage. They lack the AB of a fighter, and you miss out on a whole lot of useful feats that keep your balancing act sustained.

Saying that, though, I'm sure there is a way to do it. I just don't know how, because I've never found RDD useful for much other than breath and aesthetics (wings).

My ultimate favourite fighter-mage is 21 wizard / 6 fighter / 3 rogue. (16 starting intelligence, stopping at 20 INT -- 2 from levels, 2 from wizard bonus feats -- improving DEX, STR, or both throughout)

Insisting on 10 RDD gives only 20 levels to play with. And I don't recommend maxing out the charisma, because it leaves too many vulnerabilities elsewhere.

If going armoured, then fighter levels are probably a must, in order to pick up those proficiencies for armour and shields. There are some nice spellsword armours and shields out there, though the decent armour is really only for elves, so unless you're going for a DEX-based fighter-mage you'll definitely need UMD from somewhere. Bard probably being the favourable, due to the fact they'd already be an inate caster and making good use from the high CHA score.

But then, how can one be a sorcerer, RDD, fighter and a bard? Well, yea, that's where I struggle, too. RDDs are difficult to get that right balance, I'm afraid. Unless someone has other experience. (Something I'd really like to see)

Well, with getting a self rebuild, I'm stuck with RDD, the problem is making it work. I would have preferred to be a straight sorcerer throughout, but it seems I can't do that without making a different character entirely, and I'd rather not lose this one.

If we attribute the value of 0 to a pure sorcerer for AB;
6 Fighter build gets +2 AB, +6 Damage;
6 Fighter build (all fighter levels taken pre-epic) gets +3 AB, +2 Damage;
4 RDD build gets +2 AB, +2 Damage;
All of them have 3 attacks.

RDD isn't so bad. I'd recommend sorting your armor type first, like AlphaWaves said. There are 0% Spell Failure Chain chains (4/4 AC) that would require UMD; alternately, you could go for Still Spell, but that's very costly in feats for a sorcerer.

As a third class, I'd suggest 2 levels of Rogue. Bard isn't any better suited due to its CHA-reliance, because you're only getting cantrips and Mage Armor at best at a dismal caster level. Rogue gets you sneak damage and Evasion.

From there, it depends how many RDD levels you want or feel is appropriate. If you want to adjust according to mechanical boosts, it's basically:
4 RDD = 4 STR
5 RDD = 1 AC
7 RDD = 2 CON
8 RDD = 1 AC
9 RDD = 2 INT
10 RDD = 2 CHA

Thank you; I think I can work something out knowing that.

I'd say a 23 sorc/5 rdd/2 rogue will be a neat spellsword combo. 16 sorc/4 rdd pre-epic for three attacks per round. It's a bit cheesy, but if you can rp it, I don't see a problem.

Thank you! That is much better.

Hey guys, I'm going to make me a 12 bard/2 BG/ 16 sorc. I will be using most bard spells to buff my party and use bard song and curse song. BG levels will be to get me some saves. And sorcerer will be some offensive spells. My question is is how useful are metamagic feats? I have extended spell on my feat list, should I take any others?

Amia wrote:

On Amia, the feats Divine Shield, Divine Might have been capped and scaled to Cleric + Blackguard Level. For Divine Shield and Divine Might, this applies only to the damage or AC effect, not Duration. For example, a level 8 cleric/2 Blackguard with a +12 charisma modifier will get +10 to Damage, and +10 to AC, but for the full 12 round duration.

Dark Blessing has been capped purely to Blackguard level. In the above example, our level 8 cleric/2 Blackguard would receive +2 to his saves from his +12 Charisma modifier, and as he takes levels in Blackguard, the bonus alloted to his Dark Blessing will increase, up to his full Charisma bonus.

Extend and Maximise if you intend to take the class chiefly for buffing, otherwise grab Empower as well. A caster level of 16 will be ridiculously easy to beat, mind. More CL is preferred if you want to be taken seriously. The build seems very gimped, and I'm not really sure what you're after with that concept. I'd think it over again, if I were you.

The Hybrid46 wrote:

Hey guys, I'm going to make me a 12 bard/2 BG/ 16 sorc. I will be using most bard spells to buff my party and use bard song and curse song. BG levels will be to get me some saves. And sorcerer will be some offensive spells. My question is is how useful are metamagic feats? I have extended spell on my feat list, should I take any others?

Yuck. No offense, but that build isn't going to do so well on Amia, I think. Just too much going on. You'll end up with a character that isn't really good at buffing, offensive casting or melee. Personally, I'd drop sorc all together and go Bard/BG. Something to the tune of 21/9 or so. It'll nab you Lasting Winspiration, decent saves increase from the BG levels and a relatively decent melee capability. Go STR-base and make sure to pick up the 0% chain and shield after you get some UMD under your belt.

Keep in mind that BG's saves have been limited to 1/level. Meaning that even if you have a +12 modifier to CHA, you'll only get +2 to your saves with that build. If you do a bit of digging through this thread I'm sure you'll spot a few nice builds involving Bard and BG.

Alright guys, thanks for the feed back. I've never had a serious spellcaster and I'm wanting one now. I'll take a look around here and get some ideas. But with only 9 BG will I be able to hit anything? And would those be takin pre epic?

The Hybrid46 wrote:

Alright guys, thanks for the feed back. I've never had a serious spellcaster and I'm wanting one now. I'll take a look around here and get some ideas. But with only 9 BG will I be able to hit anything? And would those be takin pre epic?

A serious spellcaster is like 29Sorc/1Bard or something.

A serious spell-caster is a pure build spell-caster.

*cough*

I'll slink away, now.

"Go back to the shadows!" *Gandalf style at Khaza dum bridge*

The Hybrid46 wrote:

Alright guys, thanks for the feed back. I've never had a serious spellcaster and I'm wanting one now. I'll take a look around here and get some ideas. But with only 9 BG will I be able to hit anything? And would those be takin pre epic?

Well, if you're looking for a serious caster, drop bard and go sorc like Svensk or Nivo said. I like the 29 sorc/1 tumbledump, myself, but you could toss a bit of BG in there without losing too much, just make sure you leave room for at least one epic spell.

Maybe I should elaborate what I mean by serious, 21 or even 16 levels of a spellcaster is serious to me. Basically what I was wanting was a party friendly build, that's why the bard. BG levels for yes, the saves, but mostly for RP. For something like this would a 28 bard/ 2 BG be ideal, or what ainjyll said, 21 sorc/ 9 BG?

Bard is certainly more party-friendly, but you lose out on offensive ability (you have Ice Storm and physical damage boosts, plus Curse Song to weaken enemies). Sorcerer can buff a party nicely (Mindblank, Blackstaff, Stoneskin, Flame Weapon) but can't boost everyone's AB like a bard.

If you're taking BG, I recommend more than 2 levels, because that'll only give you +2 to saves.

25bard/5Fighter is Viable. Could net Dev.crit and Epic wep spec, and do some SERIOUSLY awsome partybuffing

In response to a PM I got about the Most Hide you can possibly get on a Character.
Halfling Ranger.

Small statue = +4 size bonus to standard stealth checks (hide and move silently).
Stealthy +2Hide/MS
Skill focus Hide+3
Epic skill focus +10
Skill Modifier +50
Ability Modifier +15
Trackless steps +4Hide/MS
Skills +33

121!

You want to know what's sick? That you probably need 140 Hide to beat the most dedicated spotter. Question is; Can you get 'More' hide?

Fey is better.

Damnit.

Edit - Well fuckit. I won't bother with a fey. I think they're lame. +0 ECL and grossly OP Abilities.

Well, you did ask if there was a way to get more... and that's a way.

Against enemies with no Restoration, the Curse Song-on-Bard23/SD6/Ranger1 route gives you 121 Hide outdoors too. Does guff for damage, mind.

So I have been wondering about sneaking again.

Is Hide and MS both really important? My character is going to have extra gear that ups his Hide/MS, so I think 40-50 for both is not unreasonable and from what I have learned it is adequate for PvP (not counting the epic spotters). But are both really needed? FYI - I plan to max both, so 33 Hide and MS. I know Hide is vs Spot and MS vs Listen, but I think most people don't worry about Listen checks...?

Also, I know that Spot is the best one to really pick for detection, and I -might- have 32 extra skills to toss into Spot... but is 32 Spot worth it?

And what are people's feelings on RP-centric skills like Bluff and Persuade and such? I don't plan on ever rolling for things like that from now on, as I keep things reasonable, and I have seen a fair amount of people on the forums that feel the same way, but they are only really required in DM type events, right? Tryin to decide between 32 Spot and 32 Bluff, the latter being completely RP related.

People with 0 Listen will still be rolling WIS + 1d20 to detect you. Putting no points in Move Silently will mean you almost always show up on someone's screen as transparent. If you use gear to get it to 20-30, you'll still be struggling to sneak by anyone with considerable WIS or a bit of Listen on their gear (even if they're not focused in it). I tend to go all or nothing in sneaking, because an epic "spotter" will be a character geared to Spot or Listen (Bards, notably) so having one but not the other only makes you a part-time sneaker easily trumped by the presence of certain classes.

As for the Spot, it would be 32 + WIS + gear +1d20; basically, useful against people like you, but not against dedicated sneakers. Also useful against pickpocket attempts.

I've elaborated on the spot/listen + hide/MS dynamic before but I don't feel like doing it at the moment, sorry.

A good thing to remember on the listen vs spot is

You cannot spot people behind obstacles. So if your char is hiding, and sees other chars as transparent, You can be sure that they cannot see you.

Listen can hear people around corners, which makes the OP hiding person visible and "Transparent" to the listener.

If you detect a sneaker with listen, he will still be able to sneak/death attack you.
If you spot him, he will not be able to sneak/death attack you.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Listen can hear people around corners, which makes the OP hiding person visible and "Transparent" to the listener.

False. If you're out of line of sight, Spot or Listen does not work.

Listen
* +10 DC if the listener is in combat.
* +5 DC if the target is standing still.
* -5 DC if the listener is standing still.
* +1 DC for every 3 meters between listener and target.
* Size modifiers (tiny: +8, small: +4, medium: 0, large: -4, huge: -8).
* +5 DC for every 40cm of object (including creatures) between listener and target in outdoor areas.
* +2 DC in indoor areas if the line of sight is blocked and the target is within 4 tiles.

So yes - I can hear you through walls!

Btw - A tiefling Halfling get's 123 Hide, If maxed and with 15 DEX Modifier.

If you're not within LoS, then you can't see or hear them. It's just funky Bioware coding. Just like the fact they put in the feature to hear invisible creatures, but only if they're in your attack range anyway.

And I'm saying that from years of playing sneaker PCs. Back when I used to play with Uberuce, I used to be able to hide from him all the time if I was behind an object, despite the fact his Listen was higher than my MS. I'm not talking for a few seconds, I'm talking like half an hour.

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