AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Build Advice Topic: Mk. IV

Uberuce wrote:

Kudark wrote:

Rogue 15 / Ranger 15

The split's not doing you as much good so deep in the middle. You can go as low as 5 Ranger or as high as 28, but don't set it middling.

You need at least 21 levels of Ranger to get the +5 Enhancement Blade Thirst and Bane of Enemies. Between 10 and 21 on Ranger is a gulf of nothing much going on except the pet getting better, but that is only useful when you're beating up things where a level 10-20 companion can hold its own, and you won't seriously fight them at level 30. Ranger 25's pet is nasty enough for epic, but level 26-28 is going to be shade better. That takes down your Sneak Attack dice though, and in my opinion you get more bang for your buck out of 3d6 Sneak on you and the 25th level pet than 1d6 and 28th, but it's not a great difference each way.

If you're not going the proper Ranger route, then you could go the proper Rogue route of Rogue25/Ranger5 and just use Ranger to get the 4th attack, a free Epic WF from Ranger5 and that snazzy Hide/MS boost outdoors. If you want the best saves and AB from the Rogue version, you could go Rogue12/Ranger8 into Rogue19/Ranger11, which frees up three feats for proper dualwielding and grants Epic WF for free as Ranger10. You get another die of Sneak attack from Rogue21/Ranger9, but what you gain from 19/11 is better.

The above assumes you really only want Rogue and Ranger. On the 19/11 split in particular, you're better to go 19/10 and then you can pick and choose from all the things that are good in a single dose.

Thanks for the input. I appreciate the time invested.
Now that I think about it, I could care less what the build is, he is what he is.
I'll level him up according to what he's doing because it's role-play.
The 19/11 could be feasible though, he's Rog 15 / Fig 4 / Ran 5 ...as of right now.
I won't drop rogue levels because that's what he was, what he did, but the fighter levels can get canned whenever.
I still have to read up on what the differences are in the rebuilds before requesting anything anyway.

If it's roleplay that's driving it, then a backstabber who likes the great outdoors would be completely justified in getting Fighter levels on top of the Ranger/Rogue; while you obviously seek out Sneak Attacks as much as you possibly can, you inevitably spend an uncomfortable amount of time feebly patting away at things because they're either Sneak-immune or too damn stubborn to get Knockdowned like they should. Getting better at toe-to-toe is the obvious choice, or we as builders call it: take five or six levels of Fighter and Epic Weapon Specialisation. Rogue12/Fighter4/Ranger4 into Rogue19/Fighter6/Ranger5.

Avoiding the multiclass penalty will take a fair bit of work, unless you're human, half-elf or have Rogue as a favoured class. What race is it?

1 Ambidexterity
3 Weapon Finesse
6 Knockdown
9 Improved Knockdown
12 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
15 Blindfight
18 Improved Critical

21 Armourskin
24 [up to you]
27 [up to you]
30 [up to you]

Fighter bonus:
1 Weapon Focus
2 Two Weapon Fighting
4 Weapon Specialisation
6 Epic Weapon Specialisation

Ranger Bonus:
5 Epic Weapon Focus

Rogue Bonus:
10 Crippling Strike
13 Improved Evasion
16 Defensive Roll
19 Epic Dodge

He's human

Seems like the last time I looked at this build (which, yeah, I know it's pretty standard), I had room for Armor Skin. What am I missing here?

Str 13
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 08
Cha 08

1- Rogue: Dodge, Mobility
2- Rogue:
3- Fighter: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus
4- Rogue: Dex +1
5- Fighter: Expertise
6- Fighter: Spring Attack
7- Fighter: Weapon Specialization
8- Rogue: Dex +1
9- Rogue: Whirlwind Attack
10- Weapon Master:
11- Weapon Master:
12- Weapon Master: Dex +1, Improved Critical
13- Weapon Master:
14- Weapon Master:
15- Weapon Master: Blind Fight
16- Weapon Master: Dex +1
17- Rogue:
18- Rogue: Knockdown
19- Rogue:
20- Fighter: Dex +1
21- Rogue: Epic Weapon Focus
22- Rogue (10): Crippling Strike
23- Rogue:
24- Rogue: Dex +1, Great Dexterity I
25- Rogue (13): Improved Evasion
26- Rogue:
27- Rogue: Great Dexterity II
28- Rogue (16): Dex +1, Defensive Roll
29- Fighter: Epic Weapon Specialization
30- Rogue: Epic Dodge

Kudark wrote:

He's human

To little gnomes around, man. To little..

@ Derk - Take both Wep Spec and Epic Wep Spec in Epic levels, and grab Imp.KD from Pre-epic... With all those rogue levels, it'll make your life easier.

Edit - Nvm. Missread it, You dont have the feats for it.

k so anyone else wanna look at the build I posted?

Really just wondering about the feats. I'm gonna switch to upping STR from here on out. And remember the character is made and at level 5 right now

Naivatkal wrote:

k so anyone else wanna look at the build I posted?

Really just wondering about the feats. I'm gonna switch to upping STR from here on out. And remember the character is made and at level 5 right now

why do you want dodge and mobility?

Because... it's a requirement for the SD levels? ;p

Rule nr1 - Stick to the build.
Why? Because we can't help you with it everytime you descide to change. What stops you from changing after this?

Naivatkal wrote:

Bluff 30(34), Hide 30(35), Lore 7(31), Move Silently 30(35), Perform 30(47), Spellcraft 30(33), Tumble 30(35), UMD 30(34), remaining skillpoints 12

Curse Song, Weapon Focus: Longsword, Lingering Song, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus: Perform, Maximize Spell, Epic Skill Focus: Perform, Lasting Inspiration, Favored Enemy: Elves

Yeah, drop weapon finesse and opt for improved crit. I'd also suggest leaving out lingering song. It's nice while you're leveling, but once you get lasting inspiration it still only gives you another 5 rounds of bard song. Extend spell is a good option, as is blind fight.

You'll want to spend those extra skill points putting one rank in skills like open lock and disarm trap so that when your bard song kicks in you'll be able to use them at a passable level. Open lock is especially nice to have when your rogue isn't around, and with the skill bonus items available you can be fiddling with tumblers like a pro.

You could also stand to drop UMD and bluff down to about 15 and slide those points into discipline.

Naivatkal wrote:

Because... it's a requirement for the SD levels? ;p

silly me

You can probably drop Skill Focus: Perform as well. After ESF: Perform, your charisma bonus, and the inevitable bard items you'll be getting, you won't need it to max out your song's maximum potential with 22 bard levels.

You only need 60 perform as a level 22 bard. easy as pie. 30 bards need 100 which is why you see the skill focuses, etc.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Seems like the last time I looked at this build (which, yeah, I know it's pretty standard), I had room for Armor Skin. What am I missing here?

I'd sacrifice 2 from CON and 1 from STR for a starting DEX of 18. This way you only need to waste one feat for Great Dexterity, leaving the other one open for Armour Skin. +2 AC vs +30 HP, +1 Fort and one power in your gearset. Alternatively you can go Rogue17/Fighter8/WM5.

Anybody have any suggestions for a bard/Harper scout/PDK build? I think it may fit the wandering merchant idea I am toying with for a Human. And yes, I know I will likely suck in combat.

Bard 24 / HS5 / PDK1. Its basically Bard24 and PDK1, + 5 levels of junk. Though you'd make quite money for those nifty HS items that can be crafted by taking those 5 levels, at least the ones you can sell without the OOC restrictions on them.

Speaking of them, are the OOC tags still in order after the general OOC item restriction amnesty?

They are probably items that everyone forgot exist because no one takes Harper Scout.

I have a concept in mind and I'm at a block.

The build I had in mind was soemthing along the lines of monk/SD/rog

I was wondering how viable and effective would a dex based version of the build above be? I was thinking it'd go kama spec and try to net epic dodge in there and the bonus feats I'd want most on that build would be defensive roll and crippling strike (which Crippling Strike would work abslutely perfect for him)

It'd be an elf, and subrace doesn't matter on it. But I'm just wondering how it would play? I want at least 6 SD levels and I'd be happy with 10 but no more. Thinking of a slippery, sneaky assassin that hits fast lol. I don't know if it'd be able to fitted in but if I could get alot of the sneaking feats I'd be set, and from my thinking.. if he's monk then DEX and WIs are the main stats.

Why only the 1 level into PDK out of curiosity? And yep, that is why I kind of wanted to try HS as they seem big on unique item creation according to the sidebar on classes.

TormakSaber wrote:

They are probably items that everyone forgot exist because no one takes Harper Scout.

Lutra should make some screenies, his bard as HS5 unless he rebuilt some time. The true seeing (9) 1x/day gem alone is worth it.

I ahave the mind of a steel trap! So I remember them. But yes.

DustSpray101 wrote:

Why only the 1 level into PDK out of curiosity? And yep, that is why I kind of wanted to try HS as they seem big on unique item creation according to the sidebar on classes.

Heoric Shield spam.

Inspire courage isn't as worth it then? Oh! And silly question but do the PDK perks even stack with bard song?

Dodge AC, so stackum stackums to the 20 cap, yus. Assuming you have +5 Dodge boots, the +1 from Mage Armour and 4 from Haste mean a Bard25+ with a PDK level can max you out.

They do, but other than Heroic Shield the rest aren't worth the level investment. And HS on a melee character becomes a pain in the arse because you need to spam it, but you can't because your concentrating on other things. Unless you're Uce and make an Epic DR gnome that doesn't do damage but takes even less.

As sad as it sounds, PDK works best on non-combat Wizards.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Rule nr1 - Stick to the build.
Why? Because we can't help you with it everytime you descide to change. What stops you from changing after this?

Ooh! OOOOHHHH! I know why!

Because comments like that are uncalled for and have no basis on my request for assistance. I've asked for help on this concept before but in looser terms. In fact, I never bothered about asking what feats sounded good. In addition to that, I didn't have a full on class spread thought out for this character until the other day. So, yes, I am posting to see if I am thinking straight on the feats or not. And as you can easily see from the assistance I have had from the others that have posted, I can now correct a few things that I was not originally considered/known about the bard spread.

Bobo_Underhill wrote:

You can probably drop Skill Focus: Perform as well. After ESF: Perform, your charisma bonus, and the inevitable bard items you'll be getting, you won't need it to max out your song's maximum potential with 22 bard levels.

Thank to you and Tormak on that, I wasn't sure. Plus, I wasn't sure what sort of Bard gear she'd be wearing given her concept. But I will, at least, play it by ear and save taking those feats until the end if I absolutely need them.

jameslocke wrote:

Yeah, drop weapon finesse and opt for improved crit. I'd also suggest leaving out lingering song. It's nice while you're leveling, but once you get lasting inspiration it still only gives you another 5 rounds of bard song. Extend spell is a good option, as is blind fight.

You'll want to spend those extra skill points putting one rank in skills like open lock and disarm trap so that when your bard song kicks in you'll be able to use them at a passable level. Open lock is especially nice to have when your rogue isn't around, and with the skill bonus items available you can be fiddling with tumblers like a pro.

You could also stand to drop UMD and bluff down to about 15 and slide those points into discipline.

I already took Lingering Song, actually, so that's a bit out for getting rid of it. Weapon Finesse is outtie already, given the higher focus on STR now, and Imp Crit was my next consideration, actually. Extend Spell I hadn't considered, layover of my non-magic-using background, and Bling Fight was gonna get tossed in there as it is very handy many times.

I never even thought of the 1 Open Lock (etc) + Bard Song combo, hah. Nice idea, there. And yeah, I was thinking the UMD was a tad high. That was the point there I started to just dump skills lol
Bluff is always iffy for me, I like the RP aspects of it but I am not really sure how much I would roll on that. It's an RP server, really, so I have 75% of a mind to refuse a Bluff roll anyways XD

Thanks!

hendrack wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

They are probably items that everyone forgot exist because no one takes Harper Scout.

Lutra should make some screenies, his bard as HS5 unless he rebuilt some time. The true seeing (9) 1x/day gem alone is worth it.

I've got a HS5 in the hopper. When I get the levels you can be sure I'll bring this up again either here or in testers to have the OOC's removed if they are still there at the time.

I have no idea what the items even are so no spoilers please......

Theres one item that needs to be made charges rather than use/day. Thats my only opinion.

The whole item list should be reviewed. Only seen it once or twice before, but thought of making a character for that cause.

Seems ideal for the Gnome crew. 21 Bard 4 Fighter 5 Harper Scout. I'm excited.

One of my characters is HS 5, and I have to say, some of the HS items are fun enough to almost make up for the incredible awfulness of her build (which is not due to the HS levels at all, I just built her very, very badly). Without being too incredibly spoilery, the item made from ropes has provided me many moments of gigglicious fun.

Also, only a few of the creatable items have the "HS only" OOC restriction. Most of them are unrestricted.

Due to the fact the class sucks I don't think its unmanageable for someone to bring up a topic in IA to give us a firm ruling on ignoring the HS only gaffs.

Just curious, but if anyone could use Harper items, wouldnt it make the buff for harpers redundant? The idea after all is to encourage one to take Harper levels no?

No, the purpose of the class is that some few take a sacrifice for the team and make good items available for the others.

MoshingChris wrote:

Seems ideal for the Gnome crew. 21 Bard 4 Fighter 5 Harper Scout. I'm excited.

My "to be" HS5 is a gnome BTW.

Now I'm interested in this HS class...

It goes with my previously mentioned build a few posts above me.

I'm still curious to know if there's a decent build for a DEX based monk/SD/rog; one that specs on kamas and has reallly good hide and enough rog bonus feats for at least defensive roll and crippling strike. Would like to have at least 6 SD and at most 10.

Also.. is there a possible combo for the class above that still includes the monk and SSD but has HS :O?

..Yes, I'm very intrigued by the HS class by it's special feats but also it's class description and the concept I have in idea for this build ^^

MoshingChris wrote:

Due to the fact the class sucks I don't think its unmanageable for someone to bring up a topic in IA to give us a firm ruling on ignoring the HS only gaffs.

lol you're forgetting to add the powerbuilder's perspective to that.
It's a good extra class to take for bonus feat and discipline dump.

Wrong. Learn to build. Its good for the Bonus feat -and- tumble dump. And then again trading in two pre-epic feats isn't really that good.

To wit edit: Ranger achieves a bonus feat and discipline as does fighter. 1 level of monk will bang out cleave, discipline, tumble and more importantly evasion. Bard gives a larger variety of skills.

I've got a dual wielding Elven 18 Fighter 7 WM 5 HS in the planning stage for a rebuild of one of my ancient characters and he gets better value out of not taking HS at all. However Harper Scout fits the RP better.

MoshingChris wrote:

Wrong. Learn to build. Its good for the Bonus feat -and- tumble dump.

Is the bonus feat not aiming for Great CHA/Great DEX/Epic Skill Focus for a build which already has rogue in it?

Mr Mago wrote:

Some of the best powerbuilds that can be made on this server are done with Harper Scout.

Well, the highest DC spells are gained by taking HS, but that effectively cripples the chances at other foci. A level of HS may work in some classes but it is rarely worth it. Even if the character can afford the pre-epic feats, there's no UMD available.

Sin4given wrote:

and enough rog bonus feats for at least defensive roll and crippling strike. Would like to have at least 6 SD and at most 10.

You get Defensive roll free at SD 5.

how does terrifying rage work on amia? has it been modified somehow from bioware version?

Works like normal. Aura, scary, remember your mindblank.

hmm I checked and it said that only ranks in intimidate affects it, does this mean that both normal and epic skill focuses don't matter anymore?

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Works like normal. Aura, scary, remember your mindblank.

no offense but ffs you guys are too much into PVP!

TeroSNS wrote:

no offense but ffs you guys are too much into PVP!

Yes, don't forget your discipline dump! :lol:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

TeroSNS wrote:

no offense but ffs you guys are too much into PVP!

Yes, don't forget your discipline dump! :lol:

*rips his hair off*

You need a UMD/Tumble dump as well, I suggest bard you can get all three, Tero!

Silent2001 wrote:

You need a UMD/Tumble dump as well, I suggest bard you can get all three, Tero!

UMD/Tumble is just generally useful for PvM as well.

Less spam is generally useful too.

Anubis wrote:

Sin4given wrote:

and enough rog bonus feats for at least defensive roll and crippling strike. Would like to have at least 6 SD and at most 10.

You get Defensive roll free at SD 5.

Oh? Well that helps ^_^

so any ideas?

The Official Build and Build Advice Topic: Mk. IV

Who is online