AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Build Advice Topic: Mk. IV

19CHA? Don't get that. Especially with a Great Charisma feat? Leave it at 18, that 1 extra point isn't doing anything. I would certainly drop that Great Cha feat...and I might even consider dropping KD, IKD (Use KD ring if you must), and Armour Skin and using those feats to take the Conjuration focus and EDK, if you really want that, which I guess you might given theres a reskin involved....

alamut wrote:

I'm wondering about the current changes and the old BG's build. Not that I'm complaining about the nerfs. Something had to be done to create new possibilities and such. So, I'm ok with it, even with low Divine Favor

(I'm not always a bawler).

And I'm talking about 16BG/2Rogue/12fighter. Still a good build ? Or do we have a hot alternative ?

Aside from Divine Favour going from +5 to +3, there isn't any difference. Well, not unless your CHAmod was over 16, which would be deeply silly even without a cap.

That was largely the point of the capping; 'real' Blackguards, Paladins and Clerics won't even notice but those who slapped on a dash of Pally/BG/Cleric no longer get divine gifts far out of proportion to the level of devotion reflected by their training.

-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote:

19CHA? Don't get that. Especially with a Great Charisma feat? Leave it at 18, that 1 extra point isn't doing anything.

Yeah, it was meant to take it to 20 CHA, just hadn't changed it, all sorted now. And I think if you took out kd, imp kd, armor skin for focus, greater and epic, you'd still have to remove epic skill focus in order to take the EDK spell feat, one or the other I guess. I wasn't able to get to epic cleric early enough to take mummy dust either.

IronAngel wrote:

I think that's quite enough Smiting, considering I'll add +120 damage to my smites and I'm already running +14 from Divine Might, in addition to everything else. I could always drop Armor Skin for an extra Smite or move all COT to epic and drop one pre-epic feat , but that seems wasteful. And if I understand pre-epic saves progression right, I get +3 Fort and Ref from two COT levels, whereas the last two Paladin levels to 20 would only get me +1 Fort?

You understand correctly, yep. It's looking very nice, though looking at the final progression, you could always take out Extra Turning and use that for Blind-Fight. Then you have an extra epic feat for either another Great Smiting or Epic Prowess to boost your AB up a little more. You're going to have at least 16 Turn Undead uses per day as is, seems a bit excessive to go for more. I'll leave it up to your preference.

To maximize BAB, do I need to take the classes in order? For example: Can I go 7 of Class 1, 12 of class 2, and 1 of class 1? Or do I have to go 8, then 12?

Also, am I correct in thinking BAB doesn't increase after level 20?

Logicality wrote:

To maximize BAB, do I need to take the classes in order? For example: Can I go 7 of Class 1, 12 of class 2, and 1 of class 1? Or do I have to go 8, then 12?

Also, am I correct in thinking BAB doesn't increase after level 20?

After level 20 BAB increase by 1/2 a level no matter your class. So in other words... from 20 to 30 you will get +5 BAB.

Last edited by Didi on Sat, Oct 30 2010, 21:19 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Unfortunately, my BG levels are dedicated to Lolth, so there isnt really any backing out of the pact.

How would 17C 10BG 1R treat me?

Uberuce wrote:

Aside from Divine Favour going from +5 to +3, there isn't any difference. Well, not unless your CHAmod was over 16, which would be deeply silly even without a cap.

I didn' get it :shock:

Uberuce wrote:

That was largely the point of the capping; 'real' Blackguards, Paladins and Clerics won't even notice but those who slapped on a dash of Pally/BG/Cleric no longer get divine gifts far out of proportion to the level of devotion reflected by their training.

But someone said about Scrolls of Divine favor +2. I can't see someone dedicating part of his entire life (lvl 16 Bg) to reach +3 and, someone else being capable to "buy a favor" with +2 on it. It doesn't look fair, according to what you illustrated above.

Uberuce wrote:

That was largely the point of the capping; 'real' Blackguards, Paladins and Clerics won't even notice

Your point is my 16 Bg is not that 'Real' Blackguard ? That he has no value ?

I don't think it matters about order, Logicality, its just based off this pretty table given right here: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/BAB - Has pretty much everything you need to know about everything.

Thanks, Maverick and Travis. :-)

If that's the way you want to go, didi, just make sure you take all the 10 bg levels pre-epic for better BAB, you'd use the same stats as that last build anyway.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

I think that's quite enough Smiting, considering I'll add +120 damage to my smites and I'm already running +14 from Divine Might, in addition to everything else. I could always drop Armor Skin for an extra Smite or move all COT to epic and drop one pre-epic feat , but that seems wasteful. And if I understand pre-epic saves progression right, I get +3 Fort and Ref from two COT levels, whereas the last two Paladin levels to 20 would only get me +1 Fort?

You understand correctly, yep. It's looking very nice, though looking at the final progression, you could always take out Extra Turning and use that for Blind-Fight. Then you have an extra epic feat for either another Great Smiting or Epic Prowess to boost your AB up a little more. You're going to have at least 16 Turn Undead uses per day as is, seems a bit excessive to go for more. I'll leave it up to your preference.

16 (or something; I didn't check) Turn Undead uses is only 8 of each Divine feat, though. Considering the nature of the build, I'll probably want to run them all day, every day. This is something I have no idea about because I've never done it, but won't they run out well before rest if I use them for every spawn?

So moving COT to Epic means -2 Fort, -3 Ref, and I'm not sure if +1 AB or +30 Smite damage is worth it. I'll have to think about it, and it won't be relevant in a good while anyway since I can stall until 18. I guess I'll have some experience of running with Divine Might+Shield by then, too, to make up my mind.

IronAngel wrote:

PaladinOfSune wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

I think that's quite enough Smiting, considering I'll add +120 damage to my smites and I'm already running +14 from Divine Might, in addition to everything else. I could always drop Armor Skin for an extra Smite or move all COT to epic and drop one pre-epic feat , but that seems wasteful. And if I understand pre-epic saves progression right, I get +3 Fort and Ref from two COT levels, whereas the last two Paladin levels to 20 would only get me +1 Fort?

You understand correctly, yep. It's looking very nice, though looking at the final progression, you could always take out Extra Turning and use that for Blind-Fight. Then you have an extra epic feat for either another Great Smiting or Epic Prowess to boost your AB up a little more. You're going to have at least 16 Turn Undead uses per day as is, seems a bit excessive to go for more. I'll leave it up to your preference.

16 (or something; I didn't check) Turn Undead uses is only 8 of each Divine feat, though. Considering the nature of the build, I'll probably want to run them all day, every day. This is something I have no idea about because I've never done it, but won't they run out well before rest if I use them for every spawn?

So moving COT to Epic means -2 Fort, -3 Ref, and I'm not sure if +1 AB or +30 Smite damage is worth it. I'll have to think about it, and it won't be relevant in a good while anyway since I can stall until 18. I guess I'll have some experience of running with Divine Might+Shield by then, too, to make up my mind.

Well it depends on how much Charisma you will end with. Lets say 8 uses each feat... and say you have at least a modifier of 10 from Charisma. That is 8 minutes of the Divine feats up... plus another 4 minutes in between from stopping between each spawn and making your way to the next one. So you are cutting it close but you will just have to be more wise about when you use it.

Currently for my Paladin I use either or depending on my role in PvM... if I am the one leading the charge and going to get most of the aggro I use only Divine Shield and if I am behind the pack ill use Divine Might for the added dps. Then ill use both for bosses or those instances when its 20 monsters vs 4 or 5 PCs.

alamut wrote:

But someone said about Scrolls of Divine favor +2. I can't see someone dedicating part of his entire life (lvl 16 Bg) to reach +3 and, someone else being capable to "buy a favor" with +2 on it. It doesn't look fair, according to what you illustrated above.

The scrolls thing is a little error. It'll be fixed and they'll be back at +1 soon.

Quote:

Your point is my 16 Bg is not that 'Real' Blackguard ? That he has no value ?

Nopes, the problematic builds were the ones where someone took a CHA-heavy class and tacked 1-4 levels of Cleric/BG/Paladin onto it so you got something that wasn't functionally a Cleric/BG/Paladin at all; it was just that other class with Divine Might/Shield and/or the saves boost.

Didi wrote:

Unfortunately, my BG levels are dedicated to Lolth, so there isnt really any backing out of the pact.

How would 17C 10BG 1R treat me?

I'd recommend something along the lines of Cleric 23/BG 3/Rogue 2

You get Mummy Dust, 49 AB (that's fully buffed sans Divine Might, mind you), 61 AC (fully buffed w/ Divine Shield)

I can't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head, but I seem to remember them going something like:

STR: 13 (18)
DEX: 10
CON: 10
INT: 10
WIS: 18 (20)
CHA: 14

Before I left the drow, this is what I was planning on rebuilding Bree to.

13 base starting str there cant be a good call.

So, I have my Monk char that I want to have evaluated and see if I gimped him -.-

Monk 8 (9 pending)
Current Abilities:
STR 16
DEX 13
CON 15
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 10

Current Skills (Ranks):
Concentration 5
Discipline 11
Heal 11
Listen 5
Lore 11
Tumble 11

Taken Feats:
Blind-Fight
Dodge
Toughness

He's not supposed to be a stealthy monk right now and he uses his fists. He's more pious than not, of course, and I tried to adjust his ability scores to reflect somewhat RPishness. Also, he's going to be at least Monk 20 with likely Fighter 4 also

What I am concerned about is if I have unintentionally gimped him in respect of abilities and skills.

If I have to, I can do a self rebuild. It's not that big of a deal now, at level 8. I'd like to keep him unarmed, but kama's are possible. I just dunno if I should have kept his CON at 10 and upped his DEX/INT more :/

Thoughts on the current build?
Thanks

Palemaster wrote:

13 base starting str there cant be a good call.

Why not? You get it to 18 through levels and then with buffs and equipment you hit 30. That's +10 to your AB and damage. After you apply all the cleric buffs, you're swinging away at just shy of 50 AB and it was averaging 79 damage per hit with a rapier when I was testing it.

If you bump your STR, you lose out on either CON, INT, WIS, or CHA. That means less HP, less skill pts. (it's tight already for Concentration, Discipline, Tumble and Spellcraft), less WIS (no epic summons) or CHA (less AC and duration for Divine Shield)

It's just a really solid cleric build. It's based off the 26/2/2 cleric build, but with an epic summons because fitting Dev into the build with a drow is damn near impossible.

Im away right now so just have the laptop (no nwn on it) so I cant check but...
isnt the cost to move base wis from 17 to 18 4 points? (its at least 3?) You could put 17base wis and have a bunch higher STR for more over-all stat points by the time you reach lvl 30... Tossing +3 to wis as you level and rest into +str.. Yeah.. Pretty sure...?

IronAngel wrote:

build stuff!

Maverick covered what I'd say in regards to Divine Might/Shield. However, in regards to your saves, if you went 23 Paladin/6 CoT with 20 straight paladin levels, you'd have 33/27/27, without any saving throw items or ability buffs except for the 38 Charisma. So, really... I wouldn't worry about saves at all.

Naivatkal wrote:

build stuff!

The issue with your monk build is that its abilities are too thinly spread, really. If you want to go Strength based, focus entirely on that and aim for Dev Crit. But honestly, monks are better served for Dexterity. In particular, the 20 Monk/10 Rogue build rocks. Epic Dodge, d20 fists, 5d6 sneak and UMD. Versatile and decently powerful, at least as far as monks go. You don't even need to be stealthy if you don't want to - the build doesn't need any ranks in Hide/MS to work!

And yeah, bumping 17 WIS to 18 costs 3 points.

Palemaster wrote:

Im away right now so just have the laptop (no nwn on it) so I cant check but...
isnt the cost to move base wis from 17 to 18 4 points? (its at least 3?) You could put 17base wis and have a bunch higher STR for more over-all stat points by the time you reach lvl 30... Tossing +3 to wis as you level and rest into +str.. Yeah.. Pretty sure...?

Yup if your going a strength/wis split on a cleric, ignoring the fact that Drow net Divine Shield/Might basically for nothing as Clerics, you don't go over 16 in either of those stats.

IronAngel wrote:

Yeah, I tried the strength build but I didn't like it. Smiter it is. Can you repeat this for me, though: when does Divine Favor become +5? 25 or 26? I'm starting to lean towards going Aasimar, since I have a cool theme in mind now, and 25/4 would be a Smiter of the Aasimar variety.

On a pure human:

26/4 Paladin/CoT (20 Paladin pre-epic)

Str 14
Con 8
Dex 8
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 18 (26)

Weapon Focus
Improved Critical
Power Attack
Divine Might
Divine Shield
Extend Spell
Extra Smiting
Extra Turning Blind Fight!
--
Epic Weapon Focus
Great Charisma I
Great Smiting I-VI

How does this sound? If I go Aasimar, I will start with 15 Strength and 20 Charisma instead (since I can drop 2 from Wisdom and put into Str), which means I don't need a Great Stat feat, leaving me at Great Smiting V.

So basically ending with the same Charisma on Aasimar means +2 Strength. +1 permanent AB and Damage. I won't be able to take it until 24 though, because I need 25 Charisma as soon as I hit epic to start collecting those Smites. What I lose from Aasimar is one Great Smite. Hum, do I also lose 1 BAB from missing out on 30? I think so so, and it looks like Aasimar is actually not worth it for a Great Smite paladin. Unless I forget the Strength increase and go for 28 Charisma, I guess.

Blind fight, Blind fight, Blind fight, Blind fight Iron! You must take blind fight!

Uberuce wrote:

alamut wrote:

But someone said about Scrolls of Divine favor +2. I can't see someone dedicating part of his entire life (lvl 16 Bg) to reach +3 and, someone else being capable to "buy a favor" with +2 on it. It doesn't look fair, according to what you illustrated above.

The scrolls thing is a little error. It'll be fixed and they'll be back at +1 soon.

Quote:

Your point is my 16 Bg is not that 'Real' Blackguard ? That he has no value ?

Nopes, the problematic builds were the ones where someone took a CHA-heavy class and tacked 1-4 levels of Cleric/BG/Paladin onto it so you got something that wasn't functionally a Cleric/BG/Paladin at all; it was just that other class with Divine Might/Shield and/or the saves boost.

Thanks, mate !

I'm not sure I entirely understand how divine favour used to work and what the problem was, looks like greater magic weapon spell to me. is there a reason its being nerfed into the floor?

ed: only obvious difference is it bypasses damage resistance and isn't technically enhancement bonus.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

build stuff!

The issue with your monk build is that its abilities are too thinly spread, really. If you want to go Strength based, focus entirely on that and aim for Dev Crit. But honestly, monks are better served for Dexterity. In particular, the 20 Monk/10 Rogue build rocks. Epic Dodge, d20 fists, 5d6 sneak and UMD. Versatile and decently powerful, at least as far as monks go. You don't even need to be stealthy if you don't want to - the build doesn't need any ranks in Hide/MS to work!

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Monk 20/Rogue 10 isn't a bad idea, and I know you don't need to be stealthy with it, done that before =D It adds a bit of something to the character, and RPwise it just means he's focusing in a different direction. Expanding his horizons and such.

Also, he's LN since I forgot to mention it, and straight Human.

Beyond that, how would these abilities be:

STR 12
DEX 16
CON 10
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 10

14 WIS for +2 AC (do items that raise your WIS to a higher ability modifier improve AC as well? Or is it base WIS modifier?)
12 STR so he's not so weak he can't carry things, or should I go 12 CON instead?
16 DEX is a good starting point, I think, then sink everything into DEX (plus two Great Dex) to get Epic Dodge.
14 INT/14 WIS also goo RPwise, so he's not at baseline intelligence and such, plus skills

Are the feats I grabbed so far good to take in the long run?

PaladinOfSune wrote:

And yeah, bumping 17 WIS to 18 costs 3 points.

Also: That wasn't to me, right? lol

Svensk, I am now going with this:

Quote:

Aasimar
23/6 (18/2 pre-epic)

Str 15 (16)
Dex 8
Con 8
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 20 (26)

WF: Warhammer (dunno, depends on what's available in game.)
Imp Crit
Power Attack
Divine Might
Divine Shield
Extra Turning
Extra Smiting
Extend Spell
Blind-Fight
--
EWF
Armor Skin
Great Smiting IV

I might drop Extra Turning and snatch one more epic feat by moving all COT past 20, as per Sune's suggestion. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, though. It won't be an issue in weeks, maybe months.

tested the wisdom thing for ya, in default nwn it indeed does add the wisdom added from items to your AC.

I should point out something I discovered recently about finesse, and weapons in general, it shouldn't apply to this build exactly but if you have a negative strength modifier the -damage- will still be poor, finesse only effects AB, and there are also weapons that have mighty zero, which means no bonus, but if you have negative strength you do less. weirdly, that is why shuriken exist.

finesse effects fists, but like i says if your str goes negative you will lose out on the damage rolls.

however for this particular build, I would go with the extra con and buff wisdom, dex and str with items, base str at 10, then again if I we're to build a dex monk I would start at no less that 18 dex. though, it should work out by level 30 for epic dodge, one more thing though, your going to need two feats -at- level 30, epic dodge and defensive roll.

honestly though to me it looks like its coming along nicely, decent AC, sneak damage, improved? expertise mode, etc, I would recommend improved spell resistance but your not going into the +20 monk levels =(

You got 3+15 Turn Undead allready, As you're cha-Based. You got enought even without Improved Turning

Glyph wrote:

I'm not sure I entirely understand how divine favour used to work and what the problem was, looks like greater magic weapon spell to me. is there a reason its being nerfed into the floor?

ed: only obvious difference is it bypasses damage resistance and isn't technically enhancement bonus.

At worst you lose 2AB/damage, and anyone with over 25 caster levels loses nothing. You have high floors.

Naivatkal wrote:

build stuff!

Human base, then. Go with:

STR 10
DEX 18
CON 10
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 8

There you go. Same AC, but now you don't have to waste three epic feats to get your Dexterity to 26. You could also swap STR or CON to 8 instead of CHA, if you don't want it negative. If you don't want any of your abilities negative, then go:

STR 10
DEX 17
CON 10
INT 13
WIS 14
CHA 10

Not ideal, but still better than before.

As for feats: Blind-Fight, Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, Improved Critical. Anything else is your choice - but don't take Dodge or Mobility. Waste of time for your build, and Dodge isn't even a requirement for Epic Dodge anyways. I recommend Improved Disarm.

Make sure to take Defensive Roll at 10 Rogue for Epic Dodge requirements.

Oh, and no, that wasn't in reply to you. I was answering Palemaster's question.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

build stuff!

Human base, then. Go with:

STR 10
DEX 18
CON 10
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 8

There you go. Same AC, but now you don't have to waste three epic feats to get your Dexterity to 26. You could also swap STR or CON to 8 instead of CHA, if you don't want it negative. If you don't want any of your abilities negative, then go:

STR 10
DEX 17
CON 10
INT 13
WIS 14
CHA 10

Not ideal, but still better than before.

As for feats: Blind-Fight, Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, Improved Critical. Anything else is your choice - but don't take Dodge or Mobility. Waste of time for your build, and Dodge isn't even a requirement for Epic Dodge anyways. I recommend Improved Disarm.

Make sure to take Defensive Roll at 10 Rogue for Epic Dodge requirements.

Good info, thanks.
Do I even need an INT of 13/14? Should i just go:
STR 10
DEX 18
CON 10
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 10

I don't like negatives, never have. 10's are the lowest (unless it's something like an orc, then CHA 8 makes a ton of sense lol) I usually go with.
What about if I have him focus on his fists, but have kama's for a backup? Like Weap Foc (and others) on fists but not on kama's (though maybe Imp Crit on them)?
Also, skill-wise. Should I just stick with Heal/Discipline/Tumble (for the Monk levels)? Perhaps add left over skills to Lore?

Naivatkal wrote:

Good info, thanks.
Do I even need an INT of 13/14? Should i just go:
STR 10
DEX 18
CON 10
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 10

I don't like negatives, never have. 10's are the lowest (unless it's something like an orc, then CHA 8 makes a ton of sense lol) I usually go with.
What about if I have him focus on his fists, but have kama's for a backup? Like Weap Foc (and others) on fists but not on kama's (though maybe Imp Crit on them)?
Also, skill-wise. Should I just stick with Heal/Discipline/Tumble (for the Monk levels)? Perhaps add left over skills to Lore?

It's not too bad. You do lose out on Improved Disarm, which would be a shame, but nothing that would destroy your PC. Most people discourage Improved Disarm in PvP anyway because of the chances for accidental item loss, and you have IKD for PvM.

I wouldn't advise kamas, honestly. They tend to be better off for certain cleric and heavy rogue builds. If you really want them as a backup, go ahead, but bear in mind if you're not dual-wielding them, your damage is going to be d6, whereas your fists will be d20.

Skills: Discipline/Spot/Tumble/UMD. Cross-class ranks of Spellcraft in multiples of 5 give you a +1 saving throw bonus to all spells, so if you have leftovers, it's worth considering. Otherwise, stick 'em in RP skills.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

stuff

It's not too bad. You do lose out on Improved Disarm, which would be a shame, but nothing that would destroy your PC. Most people discourage Improved Disarm in PvP anyway because of the chances for accidental item loss, and you have IKD for PvM.

I wouldn't advise kamas, honestly. They tend to be better off for certain cleric and heavy rogue builds. If you really want them as a backup, go ahead, but bear in mind if you're not dual-wielding them, your damage is going to be d6, whereas your fists will be d20.

Skills: Discipline/Spot/Tumble/UMD. Cross-class ranks of Spellcraft in multiples of 5 give you a +1 saving throw bonus to all spells, so if you have leftovers, it's worth considering. Otherwise, stick 'em in RP skills.

Cool, thanks. Discipline just makes sense since he's a Monk XD
Thanks for the kama tip, I forgot Monk's do not get dual wield kama's for free (don't know why I did ><). I'll just ignore them, don't want to waste feats. And Imp Disarm is nothing I would worry about, I don't ever think to use it and I don't use Imp Knockdown enough as it is haha.

So totally forget about Heal, then? I wouldn't think that was a good idea, given how little HP he's gonna end up having. But, then, upping DEX and such is gonna help a ton with that, right? And Spot? Just sink a ton into that, then? Not a bad idea, if it's gonna be geared towards it from the get-go.

Spot is a better option than Listen for a few mechanical reasons. I'd always prefer it.

And, well, if you have spare skills leftover, go ahead and take Heal. It's not really something I consider essential or worth giving up the four skills I named for, but you could do much worse. But in high level epic fights, you won't be able to outheal enemy damage through heal kits - heal potions come in there.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Spot is a better option than Listen for a few mechanical reasons. I'd always prefer it.

And, well, if you have spare skills leftover, go ahead and take Heal. It's not really something I consider essential or worth giving up the four skills I named for, but you could do much worse. But in high level epic fights, you won't be able to outheal enemy damage through heal kits - heal potions come in there.

That's a good point, I never even realized that. I've been mostly fine as is, with my main character, and my other problem is not liking the attacks of opportunity potions provoke XD
Shouldn't be a big problem on a DEX heavy Monk, though, lol

what is a pale master build that will get me 4 attacks/ round and not suck

X16/Palemaster10/Bard4.

MoshingChris wrote:

Palemaster wrote:

Im away right now so just have the laptop (no nwn on it) so I cant check but...
isnt the cost to move base wis from 17 to 18 4 points? (its at least 3?) You could put 17base wis and have a bunch higher STR for more over-all stat points by the time you reach lvl 30... Tossing +3 to wis as you level and rest into +str.. Yeah.. Pretty sure...?

Yup if your going a strength/wis split on a cleric, ignoring the fact that Drow net Divine Shield/Might basically for nothing as Clerics, you don't go over 16 in either of those stats.

I suppose, but that means that you have to take a Great Strength to even out your STR and when dealing with drow, epic feats are at a premium.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

X16/Palemaster10/Bard4.

14/12/4 is better, in my opinion. Or you could go even further with 10/16/4, but that means you need to raise your Cha to 20, which is hard.
I say stick with the 14/12/4 one, I know a few people using something along those lines, and they're pretty well-off.

EDIT. Right, forgot to clarify. Levels 12 and 16 both give you +2 AC, and levels 15 and 16 (and those beyond that, though you wouldn't be getting those) give you access to epic spell feats, provided that you have enough Spellcraft and Intelligence/Charisma (20).

I want to make a character that can 'blend in' virtually anywhere, and I was thinking of making him a shifter. I've read about the class itself, I've read the changes...but I'm confused a bit on how to build him. I want him to be decent in melee, and it appears there are shapes that allow for that. I'm truly stumped on what I should do with his stats, however...and class breakdown. Here are just a few questions:

1) Is the AB and attacks per round of a melee form governed by MY AB and attacks/rd? Meaning, should I try to stack in as much AB as possible pre-epic? I know I have to go 5 druid to qualify, but would 5 Druid / 7 F / 8 shifter pre-epic be the way to go (or some combo to get to +16 BAB), or does it matter when I'm shifted?
2) My base stats: are they MODIFIED by the form I choose, or REPLACED by the form I choose?
3) Weapons...when a form uses a weapon, would taking WF and WS with that weapon work, or is there something else entirely? Maybe WF - Unarmed?

Basically, I don't have a clue; this is literally the 1st finger-wiggler I've ever even CONSIDERED playing...and he isn't even a real finger-wiggler. Help a brutha out. :evil:

Vaul Tarrith wrote:

I want to make a character that can 'blend in' virtually anywhere, and I was thinking of making him a shifter. I've read about the class itself, I've read the changes...but I'm confused a bit on how to build him. I want him to be decent in melee, and it appears there are shapes that allow for that. I'm truly stumped on what I should do with his stats, however...and class breakdown. Here are just a few questions:

1) Is the AB and attacks per round of a melee form governed by MY AB and attacks/rd? Meaning, should I try to stack in as much AB as possible pre-epic? I know I have to go 5 druid to qualify, but would 5 Druid / 7 F / 8 shifter pre-epic be the way to go (or some combo to get to +16 BAB), or does it matter when I'm shifted?
2) My base stats: are they MODIFIED by the form I choose, or REPLACED by the form I choose?
3) Weapons...when a form uses a weapon, would taking WF and WS with that weapon work, or is there something else entirely? Maybe WF - Unarmed?

Basically, I don't have a clue; this is literally the 1st finger-wiggler I've ever even CONSIDERED playing...and he isn't even a real finger-wiggler. Help a brutha out. :evil:

1.) It doesn't matter. It's governed by the form you take.
2.) Replaced
3.) Someone who knows a bit more about shifters is going to have to answer that one.

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Unarmed Weapon feats, with the exception of Improved Critical, do not apply/work when shifted. Neither does Weapon Finesse (for the unarmed/creature weapon attacks), though your character sheet will say they do.

also two weapon fighting and other related feats don't work either, and there are a few others, unfortunatly I forget where I read about it in full detail.

I wouldn't reccomend unarmed to anything that has a monk level of less than 20 in any case.

I wonder, then, if a melee-focused shifter is even a viable option? I'll sleep on it. Thanks for clearing a few things up for me. If anyone else reads this and has some input, please share.

1) Yes your un-shifted BAB governs the amount of attacks you have shifted and your total AB shifted.
2) Some are replaced, some remain the same, depends on the form you shift into.
3) Yes weapon focii and specialisations work on shifted weapon forms (e.g. risenlord benefits from WF Scythe and EWF scythe)

Unarmed don't work because creature weapons and unarmed attacks are different things.

That said if a shape were to be unarmed rather than using a claw/bite/slam attack the ab bonus would probably be applied.

NOW we're getting somewhere. So Epic Prowess is a must, and WF and/or EWF with the weapons used by the forms I intend to use most frequently would also be helpful, it appears. I don't mean to clutter this forum with my questions, but I've literally never met a shifter in-game (that I know of...). Would someone who has some extensive playing time be willing to PM me so I could ask questions? I have a ton (Can you make a solid PvP shifter is a HUGE one, for what I'm looking to do...). Thanks again for the clarifications.

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(Can you make a solid PvP shifter is a HUGE one, for what I'm looking to do...).

Why would we want to sit and help you make a PvP build just so you can flaunt it to kill people?

Why do you assume the worst on virtually every post I make? I don't want some 'OMGpwnzerbbqlolz' build: I have an idea for a character that WILL get into PvP situations (i.e. he'll be Evil, so PvP is almost a requirement...), so i wanted to make sure shifters IN GENERAL weren't gimps in PvP. That's all. No 'flaunting it to kill people', I just literally don't have a clue how well the class functions. I also don't have the play-time available to level one trial-and-error.

Shifters in general even with the changes aren't great in pvp due to not excelling in any field. The only exception to this is the Dragon Monk.

Just make a shifter any way you want, and take any combination of dragonshape/undead shape/construct shape/planar shape

Then swap to which ever is the most appropriate for your situation. This includes pvp~ Shifters are a jack of all trades master of none. So if you just get a bunch of shapes your good to go broskie.

Outsider + Undead shape actually works pretty well. My own shifter is 8 Druid/3 Rogue/19 Shifter, and can actually beat some people in PvP. Rak shape is great against mages, and quite effective against HiPSers (I actually meleed one with it, once). Vampire shape is also very handy, with it's Harm ability. Both of these are, however, very vulnerable to the 32 SR items.
It'd be pretty hard, if at all possible, to reach 4 attacks - to do so, you must sacrifice your Tumble dump.
Also, don't get Dragon Shape, it's not worth it.

The Official Build and Build Advice Topic: Mk. IV

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