AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Taking Epic Prowess Topic: Mk. V

No, still a devwhore.

Though you're not making people roll fort saves vs. death repeatedly, you're still doing all the fun stuff that DevCrit still does... constantly.

Alright, folks. Another general question.

Barbarians - the best melee build for a human barbarian would be 24 Barb / 4 Fighter / 2 Rogue, I assume. What feats do you go for (aside from the basics) and is Dev. Crit really even necessary with the damage output combined with Terrifying Rage?

Also - Thundering Rage: is it worth the feat?

Just curious.

Never played a barb, but the feats you want are Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Epic Weapon Specialization, Blind Fight, Improved Critical, and Armor Skin for certain. Epic Prowess is nice to have, too. So is Knockdown and Improved Knockdown.

Terrifying Rage seems to be pretty awesome here. Someone else will have to chime in on the other rages.

Dev Crit is feat hungry. Not sure how well a Barbarian gets to it, but it's possible. It should be noted that Dev Crit is no longer a damage feat but a disabler.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Never played a barb, but the feats you want are Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Epic Weapon Specialization, Blind Fight, Improved Critical, and Armor Skin for certain. Epic Prowess is nice to have, too. So is Knockdown and Improved Knockdown.

Terrifying Rage seems to be pretty awesome here. Someone else will have to chime in on the other rages.

Dev Crit is feat hungry. Not sure how well a Barbarian gets to it, but it's possible. It should be noted that Dev Crit is no longer a damage feat but a disabler.

Precisely why I feel like it's unnecessary. Terrifying Rage and Thundering Rage in unison disable and add damage - and it's not like barbs lack damage to begin with. I wish I had room in the build I've got laid out for Epic Prowess. I love me some +1 AB action. I'll edit this post with the general build just to make sure I haven't missed anything obvious (it's been a while since I've done this).

EDIT:

Human (Tuigan)

Starting Stats:

19 - > 26
10
14
8
14
8

Level Progression: Barbarian 24 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2

1Barbarian1 Feat: Power Attack, Feat: Weapon Focus Bastard Sword
2Fighter1 Feat: Knockdown
3Barbarian2 Feat: Cleave
4Barbarian3 Str +1
5Barbarian4
6Barbarian5 Feat: Blind Fight
7Barbarian6
8Barbarian7 Str +1
9Barbarian8 Feat: Improved Critical Bastard Sword
10Fighter2 Feat: Great Cleave
11Barbarian9
12Barbarian10 Feat: Improved Knockdown, Str +1
13Barbarian11
14Barbarian12
15Barbarian13 Feat: Improved Power Attack
16Barbarian14 Str +1
17Barbarian15
18Barbarian16 Feat: Toughness
19Barbarian17
20Barbarian18 Str +1
21Fighter3 Feat: Epic Weapon Focus Bastard Sword
22Rogue1 **Tumble, UMD, etc
23Barbarian19
24Fighter4 Feat: Weapon Specialization Bastard Sword, Feat: Epic Weapon Specialization Bastard Sword, Str +1
25Barbarian20
26Barbarian21
27Rogue2 Feat: Armor Skin, **Tumble, UMD, etc
28Barbarian22 Str +1
29Barbarian23
30Barbarian24 Feat: Terrifying Rage, Feat: Thundering Rage

Skill Points: 210 (33 Conc, 33 Disc, 33 Intim, 30 Tumble, 25 Umd, 28 craft armor, 28 craft weapon)

Hitpoints: 430, +60 regular rage, +90 Unyielding, +30 ferocity

AB: 25 base +14 str +4 enchant +3 feat = 46, +6 AB from regular rage, +3 AB from unyielding, +0 AB from ferocity (I feel like this is low, for some reason)

AC: 10 base + 1 dex + 12 armor + 7 shield + 4 amulet + 5 boots + 4 cloak + 4 haste/unyielding + 2 feat + 6 tumble = 55 (also feel like I'm missing something)

Saves: +27 / +12 / +10, +3/+0/+3 from regular rage, +3/+3/+3 from unyielging, +3/+0/+0 from ferocity

DR: 5/-

I ballparked the math on everything because I'm lazy. I may have made some mistakes.

I don't see any reason in nabbing Cleave or Great Cleave if you're not going the Dev route. In the end, you don't benefit a whole lot from those feats, and thus, those Fighter levels would be better spent taken after level 20. If you want Dev you can just drop Toughness and Improved Power Attack, grab the Fighter levels post-20, and ta-da, handily enough room for Overwhelming and Dev.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

I don't see any reason in nabbing Cleave or Great Cleave if you're not going the Dev route. In the end, you don't benefit a whole lot from those feats, and thus, those Fighter levels would be better spent taken after level 20. If you want Dev you can just drop Toughness and Improved Power Attack, grab the Fighter levels post-20, and ta-da, handily enough room for Overwhelming and Dev.

The two fighter pre-epic boosts Fort by +3, though. Hrm. I would like Overwhelming Critical and Epic Skill Focus Discipline, though.

ainjyll wrote:

No, still a devwhore.

Though you're not making people roll fort saves vs. death repeatedly, you're still doing all the fun stuff that DevCrit still does... constantly.

Point made. I have also experimented with a longsword based dev crit build that is very similarly rogue heavy for my character seeing as he is a worshipper of Tempus. I may pursue the kukri build with ranger or if I don't go ranger and stay fighter its going to be longsword, because the difference in AB for not dual wielding is really nice.

Khaunwalksthisearth wrote:

ainjyll wrote:

No, still a devwhore.

Though you're not making people roll fort saves vs. death repeatedly, you're still doing all the fun stuff that DevCrit still does... constantly.

Point made. I have also experimented with a longsword based dev crit build that is very similarly rogue heavy for my character seeing as he is a worshipper of Tempus. I may pursue the kukri build with ranger or if I don't go ranger and stay fighter its going to be longsword, because the difference in AB for not dual wielding is really nice.

Can i ask what your concept was? Like, are you looking for a woodland stalker or a murderer type of character? A divine agent or a flamboyant thief of many trades?

I also read over your subrace choice and your choice of using two weapons. You are not abusing subrace lowering your dex during character creation, are you?

on the note of subracial dodgery...I was testing a pure cleric build, having noticed that my mystic theurge build is not infact anywhere near as good at turning as I thought. anyway, planar turning...is it even possible to get this feat without a human dupari and have nothing but charisma and wisdom at build?

I am not intending to make this its just a thought, and I was suprised it was so tricky to get to with 30 levels. self concealment is another difficult to attain the pre-requisites feat I haven't seen in 30 levels, has anyone managed that one? (ed: I had a discussion about this through tells once, one player was thinking of going for it but at the loss of epic dodge...need I say more.)

@Swallows

I'd drop Bastard Sword for roleplay reasons on a Tuigan. I'd consider Scimitar or Katana given exactly where the hordelands actually are situated.

From a purely mechanics perspective dropping exotic weapon proficiency will free up two feats which you can move into epic levels.

1- 20 Barb
Feats: Weapon Focus: Scimitar, Improved Critical Scimitar, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Knockdown, Improved Power Attack/Knockdown, Blindfight.

21 - 30 (4 fighter, 4 barb, 2 rogue)
Fighter Bonus: Epic Weapon Focus, Armorskin, Epic Weapon Spec
Standard Epic: Thundering Rage, Epic Prowess, Overwhelming Critical, Weapon Spec.
Barbarian Bonus: Terrifying Rage

AB: 14 Modifier + 25 Base + 5 GMW + 2 Aid/Bless + 4 Feats + 6 Rage = 56

In regards to Opustus comments on Cleave/Great Cleave. Even if you don't take Overwhelming the fact is that Great Cleave potentially increases your APR to 12, from 6, given favorable circumstances. At least its a two feat investment into nabbing +1 APR a round which will always fire due to how much damage a Barbarian puts down range.

Self Concealment V is impossible to get on a 30 cap server.

You need to get three bonus feats between level 27 and 30 that you can take self concealment on.

Which can't be done on Amia.

That said I do have an idea for a 30 Dex Elf with self concealment 1 and epic dodge.

19 Rogue 6 Fighter 5 Harper Scout

Both Harper Scout feats are taken as Great Dexterity, One Great Dexterity comes from General, Self Concealment from general, Epic dodge as a Rogue Bonus, Rounded out with Epic Weapon Focus, Armor Skin and Epic Weapon Spec.

on a server with misty potions and imp inv scrolls self concealment seems not worth taking. just imo.

I think the max amount of Self concealment you can get is 4 on a 30 serv

that's when you manage to get a rogue/assasin/SD/Mokn bonus feat at level 27 and 30, Along with the default feat at 27 and 30.

MoshingChris wrote:

@Swallows

I'd drop Bastard Sword for roleplay reasons on a Tuigan. I'd consider Scimitar or Katana given exactly where the hordelands actually are situated.

From a purely mechanics perspective dropping exotic weapon proficiency will free up two feats which you can move into epic levels.

1- 20 Barb
Feats: Weapon Focus: Scimitar, Improved Critical Scimitar, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Knockdown, Improved Power Attack/Knockdown, Blindfight.

21 - 30 (4 fighter, 4 barb, 2 rogue)
Fighter Bonus: Epic Weapon Focus, Armorskin, Epic Weapon Spec
Standard Epic: Thundering Rage, Epic Prowess, Overwhelming Critical, Weapon Spec.
Barbarian Bonus: Terrifying Rage

AB: 14 Modifier + 25 Base + 5 GMW + 2 Aid/Bless + 4 Feats + 6 Rage = 56

In regards to Opustus comments on Cleave/Great Cleave. Even if you don't take Overwhelming the fact is that Great Cleave potentially increases your APR to 12, from 6, given favorable circumstances. At least its a two feat investment into nabbing +1 APR a round which will always fire due to how much damage a Barbarian puts down range.

I'm actually gonna go with battleaxe, I think, beating them all. I just can't abide by creating a character that uses a scimitar any more, and I figure the battleaxe is both RP friendly and gives me a x3 critical - especially since I'm neglecting Dev Crit. It seems like you've got a feat too many listed in the pre-epic, though, unless that's supposed to be a choice between IKD and Improved Power Attack (which is a choice that I don't like, but will take IKD any day).

Also - without access to GMW and using Aid/Bless regularly I typically just count what I can attain with as little assistance as possible. As such, it's closer to 53 AB in a bare minimum situation. Still - it's good.

Let's see. I'll drop toughness and improved power attack, add cleave / great cleave, shift the fighter levels to epic and take thundering rage and epic prowess.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Khaunwalksthisearth wrote:

ainjyll wrote:

Stuff

Point made. I have also experimented with a longsword based dev crit build that is very similarly rogue heavy for my character seeing as he is a worshipper of Tempus. I may pursue the kukri build with ranger or if I don't go ranger and stay fighter its going to be longsword, because the difference in AB for not dual wielding is really nice.

Can i ask what your concept was? Like, are you looking for a woodland stalker or a murderer type of character? A divine agent or a flamboyant thief of many trades?

I also read over your subrace choice and your choice of using two weapons. You are not abusing subrace lowering your dex during character creation, are you?

My character is a wandering warrior monk. He was originally in his history a rogue type but this act caused him to appeal to a God which marred his history by demanding him to perform evil deeds, so he has forever moved away from his old ways of unlawfulness. He is pure human so I don't know what you mean by abusing subrace dexterity.

This character is moving away from pure unarmed martial arts in favor of picking up a weapon because he is not a pure monk. My approach to this is that ICly, the monastic training is taxing on his body (He is developing arthritis, too much punching metal armor and mylocks and those sorts of things) in a way that causes him to desire utilizing his old talents in a way which will support his continued martial development.

Another side of the character is that he is a Theologer; he considers in depth the implications of the worship of Gods because he has suffered a deity change in his lifetime, so the concept is familiar to him.

Pacifist cleric of Ilmater

It has been 2 years since I've played on Amia. I was wanting to come back and play a pacifist cleric of Ilmater. I would like a build that just focuses on the the tenements of Ilmater. I will be reading some older edition books on Ilmater to attempt to RP the cleric accordingly. I plan on just getting into parties healing and using protection spells to gain experience. I would appreciate any feedback on builds or just general advice on playing this type of character. I would like to be viable for just partying with characters and not be a burden due to not having enough on defense. Thanks for your help.

[Edit] I was thinking either pure cleric or 27 cleric/3 monk to have viable defenses. [Edit]. I now understand the changes with monks so no longer considered on monk levels. Still would like suggestions though.

The 3 monk isn't going to give you all the monk AC anymore.

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=20&p=934688#p934688 Read here about Amia monks!

Mitchell.Dalton wrote:

Pacifist cleric of Ilmater

It has been 2 years since I've played on Amia. I was wanting to come back and play a pacifist cleric of Ilmater. I would like a build that just focuses on the the tenements of Ilmater. I will be reading some older edition books on Ilmater to attempt to RP the cleric accordingly. I plan on just getting into parties healing and using protection spells to gain experience. I would appreciate any feedback on builds or just general advice on playing this type of character. I would like to be viable for just partying with characters and not be a burden due to not having enough on defense. Thanks for your help.

[Edit] I was thinking either pure cleric or 27 cleric/3 monk to have viable defenses. [Edit]. I now understand the changes with monks so no longer considered on monk levels. Still would like suggestions though.

28 Cleric, 1 somethingwithtumble, 1 somethingwithdiscipline (because I doubt you want to take a bard dump). 30 Cleric also works, but lacks 3-6 AC and is pretty much game-overed by something with Knockdown.

Epic Skill Focus: Heal would be cool, too, I guess.

29 Cleric 1 Bard.

Last edited by Glyph on Fri, May 06 2011, 16:26 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I have nothing nice to say about the bard thing so I won't.

would personally go pure, if your dumping at 30 your not going to have those bonus defences til 30 so it won't effect anything party wise anyway, until the so called end game.

ed: I think you we're right on the 4 maximum svensk, though I fail to see how to get 4 bonus feats between 27 and 30, would take a mix match of levels at specific times.

re svensk: oh I see, extra feats at 27 and 30 =) that could work nicely, I will try later possibly, has been long day.

If you read what i wrote, you'll understand.

As we are on clerics: How do you make room for a bit of ranger on a chultan shaundakulite cleric, and how do you make him not suck in general?

...Eh?
Just make room for the ranger? I don't understand the question.

Post the entire build

Eh, basicly a question of how much ranger you can put into a cleric before he starts being crap. And if a cleric can do without divine might and shield, which will be difficult to achieve with a penalty to charisma.

My cleric tops 57AC Without Divine Shield. Could get 59 With Armor Skin.

And i'd say 1-5 Ranger, Before it turns to poo.

From what I have understood, you either go 1, 9 or 10 ranger if its to be of any use. What i have in mind is to rebuild my current ranger into a cleric, with one or more ranger levels for flavour, as well as a rogue level for tumble I suppose.

The question is if he can prove useful in melee without the cha buffs. Ideally he would use a greatsword as it is the deity favoured weapon, but I suppose sword'n'board is better?

And 20 wis is enough, yes?

20 Wis is what you should aim for Yes. so you can cast level 9 spells, and get access to Epic spells.

I'm not sure how closely related rangers/Clerics are, Honestly, You should take the Q to the lore topic

Two handering cleric is perfectly acceptable.

If your not going the Cha/Caster route 24 Cleric 5 Ranger 1 Harper Scout works a dream because you have free feats in pre-epic that would normally be devoted to Spell Foci or Divine Might/Shield.

Plain Human:

16 STR (10)-> 20
8 DEX
11 CON (3)
12 INT (4)
17 Wisdom (13) -> 20
8 CHA

19 Cleric/1 Ranger Pre-epic (Ranger taken at level 1 for a boost to skillpoints and martial weapon prof)
Pre-epic: Alertness, Iron Will, Weapon Focus: Great Sword, Imp Critical: Great Sword, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, Knockdown, Blindfight

5 Cleric 4 Ranger 1 Harper Scout epic (Harper Scout taken at level 27+ for full tumble dump)

Feats: Greater Ruin, Epic Mummy Dust, Epic Fort, Epic Discipline or Spot.
Ranger Bonus: Epic Weapon Focus
Cleric Bonus: Armor Skin
Harper Scout Bonus: Epic Skill Focus Discipline or Spot

It's been a long time since I read the build thread, so I must admit I do not understand what you mean by the () numbers. But i am very happy to see a cleric build that works without divine might and shield, and even includes a harper scout.

As for skills, I suppose Disciplin, tumble, spellcraft and spot are the most important ones, with extra points put in AE maybe?

Quick question-

Can a mage-class innately read any and all scrolls?

Yes, as long as it's not cleric, druid, paladin specific, unless if you're multiclassed cleric, druid, paladin too. It's class specific.

Doesn't that make the answer 'no'?

A generalist wizard or a sorceror can read all the arcane scrolls. From then on there's enough exceptions and weirdnesses that you just need to go and see.

What is the average PC's HP?

And are there any weapons that average enough damage in a critical hit to splat said number?

I'd say it goes between 3-25hp per level without any toughness feats.
That makes a range from 90-750 which is rather broad.

Let's take 8 or 10hp/lvl as the average then it makes the average hp at lvl 30 about 240-300hp.
Which says you need to whack them good to do them in in one go.

The two-handed large crit modifiers might do the work (especially when used with ki damage) on enough crits in one round. You'd need a touch of luck.

Dergaii wrote:

I'd say it goes between 3-25hp per level without any toughness feats.
That makes a range from 90-750 which is rather broad.

Let's take 8 or 10hp/lvl as the average then it makes the average hp at lvl 30 about 240-300hp.
Which says you need to whack them good to do them in in one go.

The two-handed large crit modifiers might do the work (especially when used with ki damage) on enough crits in one round. You'd need a touch of luck.

So.. Ranger 21 / Fighter 4 / WM 5 with a Greataxe...?

Yeah well, here is a rebuild I’m considering for a transmutation specialist drow wizard. The level spread is 26 wizard and 2 rogue, I’m taking a rogue level at like, level 4 and the final one at level 28 where I’m doing some skill dumping for tumble, appraise, bluff etc.

Attributes
STR: 12 -> 13
DEX: 14
CON: 12
INT: 18 -> 24
WIS: 10
CHA: 12

On the strength being 13, well I was going to have an odd number for an attribute out at any rate so I figured I might as well be able to carry more.

Feat Spread
Level 1: Brew Potion
Level 3: Craft Wand
Level 6: Extend Spell; Spell Penetration
Level 9: Greater Spell Penetration
Level 11: Spell Focus (transmutation)
Level 12: Greater Spell Focus (transmutation)
Level 15: Empower Spell
Level 16: Spell Focus (necromancy)
Level 18: Greater Spell Focus (necromancy)
Level 21: Epic Spell Focus (transmutation), Epic Spell Focus (necromancy)
Level 24: Greater Ruin; Mummy Dust
Level 27: Epic Mage Armour; [Epic Spell Penetration/ Dragon Knight]

I’m mostly concerned with feats; do you think that these feats work well enough or am I missing something important? I couldn’t decide what to do with the final feat so any suggestions regarding that would be welcome. I'm not too sure on the importance of Maximise spell as opposed to Empower spell, so anything regarding that would be good.

EDIT: In regards to the character himself, he is a drow merchant wizard. He is more comfortable in the marketplace or in a lab than doing actual fieldwork though he expects to get into quite a few scuffles given how volatile drow politics is.

Thanks for ya time.

Greataxing WM's will give you 200's pretty consistently, but that's only enough for CON-skimping mages, Rogues, Bards. By the highly unscientific method of looking at the epics in my vault(and excluding the characters that are a result of my EDR-on-something-silly fetish), I got an average of 338. There's two CON-based DwD or Barb characters in there, so that bumped it up by around 60.

I'm guessing you wonder what characters, if any, can instakill people in the first strike of PvP if you clicked attack out of nowhere? Bear in mind the way NWN handles combat is to split rounds into three flurries. As far as the timescale of combat goes there isn't a difference between the hits inside a flurry. The Greataxe WM, presumably having 4 per round, would get two strikes in the 'first strike', if that isn't too nuts. Against a flatfooted character, you're pretty much guaranteed two hits, so there's a 1 in 4 chance of wiping out light chaps and chappesses, and a 1 in 8 chance of getting all but the beefcakes. Way better than Devcrit.

I know of one greatsword WM who simply didn't bother with AC at all in her PvP gearset - if she didn't win in the first round, she wouldn't win at all, so she might as well have good saves and HP.

I'm building an assassin, and at the moment cant decide how to finish off the build. I'm trying to figure out if epic dodge is worth losing 4 levels of assassin for. Any suggestions?

Epic Dodge is worth the soul of your firstborn child.

QPR wrote:

It's been a long time since I read the build thread, so I must admit I do not understand what you mean by the () numbers. But i am very happy to see a cleric build that works without divine might and shield, and even includes a harper scout.

As for skills, I suppose Disciplin, tumble, spellcraft and spot are the most important ones, with extra points put in AE maybe?

The numbers in the brackets I generally delete, I forgot this time. Its just a tab on how many points you need to invest at level one to get the corresponding number in abilities.

I figured Harper Scout fits Stonesnake and Shaundy if you just rp it as "Scout" or "Pathfinder"

Uberuce wrote:

Epic Dodge is worth the soul of your firstborn child.

And its childrens children, It's a licence to ignore Nat 20's, or the first connecting attack for those souped up mega-bosses with 65AB.

Uberuce wrote:

Greataxing WM's will give you 200's pretty consistently, but that's only enough for CON-skimping mages, Rogues, Bards. By the highly unscientific method of looking at the epics in my vault(and excluding the characters that are a result of my EDR-on-something-silly fetish), I got an average of 338. There's two CON-based DwD or Barb characters in there, so that bumped it up by around 60.

I'm guessing you wonder what characters, if any, can instakill people in the first strike of PvP if you clicked attack out of nowhere? Bear in mind the way NWN handles combat is to split rounds into three flurries. As far as the timescale of combat goes there isn't a difference between the hits inside a flurry. The Greataxe WM, presumably having 4 per round, would get two strikes in the 'first strike', if that isn't too nuts. Against a flatfooted character, you're pretty much guaranteed two hits, so there's a 1 in 4 chance of wiping out light chaps and chappesses, and a 1 in 8 chance of getting all but the beefcakes. Way better than Devcrit.

I know of one greatsword WM who simply didn't bother with AC at all in her PvP gearset - if she didn't win in the first round, she wouldn't win at all, so she might as well have good saves and HP.

Well, that answers my question perfectly, Uce. Huh.

What do you think about the Ranger splash for the extra base damage? It's either that or potentially Fighter 4 / WM 7 / BG 19 - which I don't think I've ever seen before. Stats would be spread weird and I don't know if it's doable, but if it was it sure would be cool.

That build won't work. You need 6 fighter to get into WM.

Well, the Ranger damage is conditional on the other person being a Bane race, and you have to sacrifice UMD/Tumble/Evasion for it, which I wouldn't if I was making a PvP platform. For PvM, Ranger21/WM5/Ftr4 on a long-threat weapon must be turbonutter against its Banes.

From Derk's post, it looks like you'd have to go for a Ftr/WM/Rogue, which as much Rogue as epic feats and BAB allowed.

Uberuce wrote:

Well, the Ranger damage is conditional on the other person being a Bane race, and you have to sacrifice UMD/Tumble/Evasion for it, which I wouldn't if I was making a PvP platform. For PvM, Ranger21/WM5/Ftr4 on a long-threat weapon must be turbonutter against its Banes.

From Derk's post, it looks like you'd have to go for a Ftr/WM/Rogue, which as much Rogue as epic feats and BAB allowed.

Huh. 12/7/11, then, I'm guessing, fighter/wm/rogue. Nabs 6d6 Sneak attack. But if we're going that route we may as well make him a corner-sneaker.

Then... give him more WM or fighter?

Also, there's a huge difference in a character between ranger and blackguard and rogue. Just some interesting options I see, given they are all rather unrelated. I might have missed it, but what's the character concept?

Naivatkal wrote:

Then... give him more WM or fighter?

Also, there's a huge difference in a character between ranger and blackguard and rogue. Just some interesting options I see, given they are all rather unrelated. I might have missed it, but what's the character concept?

I'm more just doing fun maths and asking questions. I'm more concerned with something someone else would have to be to instantly kill my characters than I am with what I'd have to be to instantly kill their character.

Swallow the Stars wrote:

Huh. 12/7/11, then, I'm guessing, fighter/wm/rogue. Nabs 6d6 Sneak attack. But if we're going that route we may as well make him a corner-sneaker.

Aye, if you're doing that then go Ftr6/WM7/Rogue17 DEX-base and nab Epic Dodge, yus. I was amazed at how well that guy turned out.

That said, you can get any old lumpen STR-base WM and throw some Hunter's Boots on him, chug a Panther's potion and get 18DEX and that's you set to sneak around in a chainshirt at only -2 Hide/MS. Give how few people have a single rank in Spot, it'd be pretty effective.

Swallow the Stars wrote:

I'm more just doing fun maths and asking questions. I'm more concerned with something someone else would have to be to instantly kill my characters than I am with what I'd have to be to instantly kill their character.

Oooh interesting idea there. And twas just concerned interest on my part anyways =D

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