I don't play in the UD largely because of the learning curve. I've tried once or twice but I have a hard enough time with the ranks to bother learning the rest of the language except for a few words here and there. I confess I also have difficulty with how to have a loner character who's a junior priestess from a dead house (do'Veldran) order others ICly to take her out hunting. I understand that females outrank males, but I doubt that a 5th level priestess outranks a 30th level warrior or wizard with major clout who just happens to be a male.

_________________

~Sharess on AmiaWiki~
Priestess, politician, prostitute
"[They] were moving in on me like Sharessans on a new broad in the bath house" - Tracer Bolt
AmiaWiki mod (mostly inactive)

It's an iffy situation. A proper male should still be respectful and such, though the nuances are tricky to me. I would think it would be a matter of having the ability to respectfully decline, maybe with the excuse they have other matters to attend to. It's really a weird dichotomy where males are always inferior to females but those of higher rank than a female have a wee bit more leeway. Not that my cleric would ever allow them to be disrespectful. Also, being a priestess gives you some clout to begin with. It would be easy to get tested for the first rank in the Temple which helps a lot.

All that said, my cleric is always happy to see a female who has Lolth's gift
Do it. Join us. You know you want to. We have cake. Drow-cakes. The best cake in all of the UD! But don't have tea with Nizz, it's her excuse to poison people.

_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Finding out is part of the fun. I didn't know what to expect with my first character beyond a little background reading on the drow, but I had a blast unraveling the secrets of the Underdark through all her many blunders and achievements (mainly the former). You can't and shouldn't dissect it in to a set of OOC rules because you'll only be limiting your enjoyment by thinking 'oh shit, there's so much to remember'. The truth is, it's just not that clear cut and set in concrete. Every situation you encounter will be different depending on who and what each character knows and wants. Just go in to it with an open mind and get stuck in, explore, take the rough with the smooth. Especially if politics and evil machinations are your bag.



It really shouldn't make you feel stupid to ask for a few pointers on a few foreign words. It's not a big deal.

Man, I totally forgot about this:

http://www.grey-company.org/Maerdyn/res ... ranslator/
http://www.eilistraee.com/chosen/language.php

Great for figuring out what weird words mean.

_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

'Controlled' Chaos is a hard thing to get down exactly in text.

An ECL 4 (lvl 2) female could very well rule the whole of Edonil if she found enough supporters and a way to outmaneuver more established characters. Mind, her rule would only last as long as the loyalty of those that follow her. Drow society is all about portraying outward appearances of solidarity whilst masking personal ambitions and dark intentions, often against a rival house or even your own.

_________________
Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

I understand the language and I am more fluent in it than say, Spanish, which I took four years of. However, I find overusage of it to be an unnecessary barrier to entry for new/returning players.

It’s been mentioned by several experienced drow players as being a hindrance, an annoyance and immersion breaking. It has also been mentioned by a DM and by several players who gave up their drow character as a result of feeling on the outs of what I call “The cool kids club”. The lore, while complex can be summarized in a way that gives players a basis as has been done on this thread. However, no player should ever HAVE to break out a translator to try to fit in and understand what’s going on. They shouldn’t HAVE to ask every other sentence, what does that mean? Why should players be forced to learn another language just to play with us? They shouldn’t be told you’ll figure it out eventually, or it’s not hard to learn, or it’s not a big deal.

You can be the nicest, most helpful player on the server but it’s normal for people to feel dumb when they don’t understand. It can be overwhelming coming from the 99.9% English only surface into a realm where not only is the society complex and a polar opposite of the norm, but where it’s not JUST ranks in another language, it’s only every fifth word that is in English! Ranks in any society you have to learn, even ones in English so that's a given part of getting into a culture as you will not immediately know who/what that person is, where they rank or what their roles are by a name alone.

I wouldn’t compare this to knowing your cleric’s deity, or how a pious paladin should act. That’s applicable to knowing how a priestess of Lolth should act which is essential to playing a priestess of Lolth, or a cleric/paladin of any other deity. Heavy usage of the language has been referred to as "Flavor" and I think a player is entitled to their bland steak and we should always keep in mind that too much seasoning will ruin your steak. More is not always better. This is more akin to saying “Sure! Go play on that German server because you know about every fifth word. Just use a translator for the rest! You’ll learn!”. It comes out to a huge barrier to entry plus it can be very discouraging to new players and these statements just encourage the sentiment.

The most equivocating statement so far is that some people try to use less drow words around newer players. Yet do these players have a big “I have no idea what you’re saying” sign? Do they not get caught in the crossfire before they’re identified? We do it around DMs too who try to reward us for our hard lore-intensive work only to find out that they’d have to play a drow for eight years just to understand the language being touted. Then people wonder why we have to plead with players to play with, or why it’s been said time and time again that the drow don’t get any attention for plots/rewards, or why we are called elitists. Drow culture isn’t easy, but the players make it harder regardless of how helpful/welcoming we may or may not be.

I think that ultimately we need to always keep these players in mind, and understand that if we make it work to play the game we can't expect people to want to play with us. That's not fun for a lot of people.

I've been put off because of this, my desire to make such a "warrior" male character who I hoped would make a female character think twice to not annoy their attack dog too much. Though this was met with an ooc lecture on how this was against the lore and would never happen so I shouldn't do it.

_________________
Sir Azeriel El'johnson - Tormtar and Triadic Knight

Have happened to me too. >.<

_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

I don't see why it would be against the lore. If a male has the skills, he'll probably earn some degree of respect from the female population. Granted, he'll still have to bend his knee to the priestesses, but there's nothing stopping him from snapping the offender's scrawny neck while no one's watching or hatching a plan to make the b***h fall from grace. It's very unlikely that a veteran warrior would take any crap from a novice priestess. He just can't pimpslap her in public, he'll have to wait for a chance to discipline her while no one's watching.

As long as he doesn't get caught, anything goes. Besides, it's not like every male and every female are the same. Some are granted a bit more leeway in what they do/say because of their earned rank/status and prowess, while others are granted none because they're seen as useless.
I think even the strongest priestess would have second thoughts about pissing off an "attack dog" too much if he had real power and could be useful.

A male character will always be on a leash. How long and loose that leash is depends on how much he plays by the book while the females are watching.

I actually enjoyed the gender-based struggles. People seem to think that playing a male means that you are simply a grunt, when it couldn't be farther from the truth. In fact, I almost prefer playing a male, because no one expects him to be a big player, or a schemer.

As a male, you just have to find out what the Priestesses/females bow to, and figure out some ways to create leverage in your favor.

While I can stand with the others that have had trouble with the Drow speech intertwined with English, I absolutely love the conflict that the gender roles produced. It was maybe a bit shocking in severity, but once you become engrained or a part of the culture as a male, you have plenty of opportunities. There's conflict in the male/female spectrum, then there's conflict between the other males as well. And even conflict/disagreements between professions. That's something that I always found to be very, very intriguing with the Drow. In Kohlingen, sure, there are Priests and Paladins who can wield their status, but from personal experience, the Underdark Drow wield professions at a much more intriguing level.

Its got a clearly defined professional rank structure that everyone seems to acknowledge. So if you're that male character, that powerful warrior, and you don't want to get pushed around by a lowly female, seek a well known professional position. If you're the strongest warrior among the males, and you've got the rank to prove it-- the lowly level 5 priestess is going to have to think about all the political ramifications before wielding her power over you. Odds are, that male's come to his power through the 'support' of another female (One probably higher ranked), and by attacking the male, you indirectly assault the other female's work. There's a certain security in being a piece of property.

It's these kind of social, political struggles that make the Drow world so, so, so neat. Nothing is ever black and white. It's all an intricate web, and everyone's connected. The trick is to not get trapped.

I agree with this. Form the standpoint of Zrae, she detests males from the get-go. If they have the proper respect for their place, then they already garner some respect for her. If they are skilled, they also get respect for that. Now, if she will be semi-friendly with them, that is another story.

Isen'mynameistoolongandcomplex is an example of such a male. He's skillful, respectful, and he's well-respected in the city so Zrae accepts him and would be willing to work with him.


Gotta agree with this here. I chose a female because I wanted to go for a specific dynamic as a cleric and I envisioned a very zealous (in comparison to other drow) female. The dynamic is fun, and I always feel bad when she flat out ignores males that are around (not counting the ones that have some degree of respect, of course). After all, she's from Sshamath... she's going to be bitchy towards them hahaha.

_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Is there a good place for a drow name generator?

_________________
Sir Azeriel El'johnson - Tormtar and Triadic Knight

Personally I use this one.

ive tried in the past to get involved in the UD as a drow. It was very clique at the time and if you were not part of the in crowed it was a very lonely RP for your character. Also, I can understand the Drow language frustration. At one point I started to copy and past nothing but drow language instead of using (d), just to get the message across. If its so important to use real drow language in text I wonder if its to stop meta gaming for others that aren't supposed to know Drow language..if so keep in mind all "drow" in the under dark "know" Drow. People can get agitated feeling rather stupid and dont care to sit there and think "umm...what did they just say? cause im drow and should know what they are saying? " gah..now let me go to the website translator or pm someone all the time asking what was said.

Now that the numbers are down for amia players perhaps it will not be so clique there XD.

_________________
Hard to place any eggs out of one's basket

I completely agree with this!

+100

Granted I have purposfully toned down the expected backlash of a PC being rude or making my priestess look bad/weak in public. Yet there are players who can attest to the fact that Nizzre really doesn't take any crap without a response.

That said a preistess must be careful in what punishment she deals out. She has to be able to 'get away' with it. For instance, when the leader of the Sorcere is a powerful mage with many contacts, you have to really think hard about how far you want to take it should they be rude to your PC in public. Will you need them later, what might they do to you or your house, is it something you can address later?Same goes for a strong warrior.

Nizzre imploded Ul'Saruk Zeketh'ryn because Zeketh choose to test Nizzre in a Matrons meeting by disobeying a simple command. If Nizzre would have let it go, it would have made her look weak in front of too many powerful priestesses. Here's why Nizzre thought she could get away with the action. She outranked Zeketh's mistress, Nizzre had the gold to pay for the damage to Zeketh, Nizzre was confident that she could turn the tables on Zeketh's mistress by pointing out his mistresses failure to have a properly polite male. Nizzre also took into account the possiblity that the spell wouldn't work, the others that might get caught in the spell effect area and how much support she would get from the higher ranking priestesses in the room. I think about all this and more for Nizzre and for the males I've played. Is it worth it to make this preisetess mad? Sometimes the answer is "No way" Sometimes the answer is "Oh yeah". Nizzre has been known to tell her males /not/ to bow to priestesses to see what the priestess will do.

One of the reasons drow RP is slowish and interesting is due to having to think about what you're going to do and the reprecussions of your actions.

Remember it's not about your PC's level, it's about who has the power and what you can get away with.

Everyone should know from the get-go that not bowing to a ranking priestess is a bad idea and that you will be punished sooner or later. And for those of you lamenting about your PC getting pushed around -- Nizzre spent the first few months bowing to every female. She didn't have rank in the Temple, wasn't a member of a House right away and didn't have the backing to do much of anything but watch and learn. Yes, she was made to clean a priestesses boots, yes she was slapped around and threatened with death etc.

So, buck up annoyed drowsie players, get back in there and find a way to make that priestess that whipped you pay! PS. I'd be happy to help you with ideas.

_________________
Ari'aerath Dlues'athsha ~ Silver Singer with the Bow of the Sun
Clarette Feohn ~ Magic is Art.
Victoria Marrs ~ "I have an herb for that."

Best thing to remember when playing drow is to seperate the IC from the OOC. Mal'dra is a vile individual but I like to think I'm quite nice. I also like to picture my fellow drow players as warm fluffy bunnies staring at their screen and racking their minds as they come to terms with their characters conniving and evil dispositions, or wondering where they left their clothes if they're Eilistraeens

Clothes? You mean we're supposed to have /clothes/?

_________________


Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

<---- returning.

_________________
Nakasha
Izzy
Defender Calika Nethzil
Aridial

If i wanted to make a ud character, but didn't necessarily want a Drow, would that end up being a bad idea as far as finding people to rp with?

_________________
Lance battle shifter of Red Knight
Lyle Underburrow...I would watch where you step when he's around, you might go boom

From MY perspective and MY Experience - Yes. It very difficult to go around as a non-drow in the Underdark. Read my previous posts on the subject further back.

_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

And then read the posts from UD players stating they welcome other races. I made a very nice (I think) post about how the RP can go down, and how to approach things from an OOC perspective. People want immersion and unfortunately the UD is a harsh place, so as long as you know what to expect and you don't get upset about IC things and remember whatever happens is IC and not OOC then you will be fine.

Frankly I'd like to see more drow and non-drow in the UD!

_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Yeah treant, in response to you I expect we'll get posts from UD players saying what Naiv said; they welcome non-drow, here are some examples of non-drow which worked well etc etc.

Honestly? For starters, yes, 90% of the time you'll be dealing with other drow. They're simply the most popular - elves/humans have always been more popular than orcs, gnomes, kobs/gobs and dwarves, drow are especially popular for their own reasons and popularity attracts even more players. So the question is if a non-drow player can have fun in the UD. Yes - *IF* you accept the fact that it's the drow way or the highway. Your RP is probably going to be in Edonil (don't know that for sure), where no matter how welcoming the players make it, non-drow are second-class citizens. It's just so deeply-ingrained in the drow psyche that you can't get around it. If that and all its trappings don't bother you - great! You could probably even make a slave PC if you wanted (which is a few steps further than what I mean by second-class citizen). A lot of people have trouble handling that kind of treatment of their PC however, which I understand.

I think most drow players will genuinely try to treat a non-drow well. But the reality of the situation is that they not only have an excuse to be a jerk, lore tells them to. There's going to be a limit to how nice they can be. Most of them will probably be polite, courteous and as I said, welcoming. But also arrogant, and with veiled contempt. Bottom line is, you will have a place in the drow city, and there will be RP. And it will be brilliant. The playerbase needs more people, so they'll be as welcoming as possible - but that does still include the drow behaviour package. Whether or not you can handle it is down to you.

This is mostly based on observations of the playerbase and familiarity with the lore - I never actually saw the few non-drow PCs around Edonil in action, though I played with a few in L'Obsul (which is a different kettle of fish wherein you may not find much RP to my knowledge). So I might be wrong about how it goes down IG. But back when I played a drow, I enjoyed it a lot. Half of my best experiences on Amia come from there.

_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293

Sadly, L'Obsul is pretty quiet. I start there with my current UD PC every time I login. I'll circle the place, stop down in the mines, hang around a bit, then move to another area if I'm looking to interact with someone. I've absolutely no interest in playing a Drow and my PC despises them so I never travel to Edonil. Actually, I cannot recall the last time I saw another non-drow PC come through L'Obsul.

_________________
Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

My drow and the rag tag band that was her house has moved off to L'obsul of late, rather than call Edonil a home. So always willing to interact with others when we are able, anyway!

But L'obsul has always seemed relatively quiet compared to Edonil though from all my experiences

_________________

Signature by Maryn! <3 I am also seen as DM Snuffles.

This. *points*

_________________


Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

I wish you had built edonil INSIDE or under or above l'obsul. Imagine the interaction.

_________________
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/other/tool/characterbuildcalculator-nwn2-cbc2