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Of course not! Some can be cowed to fear, others, like devoted paladins, will just have to be destroyed. :wink:

Vaylek wrote:

Yossarin wrote:

Unfortunately, Vaylek, a paladin has taken a very strict oath to handle those matters with his own hand, guided by the powers of his divine patron. What you suggest is what a "good person" would do who recognizes that he or she is outmatched.

A paladin has faith on his or her side, however, and no evil in this world can outmatch the grace of his or her god or goddess.

Hmm, fair enough, BUT, how far should you take this 'lawful stupid' outlook? Hypothetical situation (which could easily happen on Amia):

Paladin A is waiting outside Kampo's to meet Paladins B and C.

Necromancer walks by, followed by winterwight.

Paladin A asks Necromancer to dismiss summon, necromancer refuses.

Should paladin A wait for his comrades, so they have a better chance of felling the necromancer, with a slight risk of letting the necromancer get away while he waits?

Or should he attack on the spot and die, a martyr for his beliefs which need to be addressed right here right now?

What would the code of conduct dictate?

The code of conduct dictates that he must take action. Your original example prior to this one involved a paladin literally "leaving the evil untended" and going to tell somebody else to handle it.

In this situation, the paladin may recognize that the battle will be a difficult one, but he may see Paladin B & C coming as the god-promised cavalry, and do something, whatever it takes, to forestall until it does, knowing full well that he may have to give up his life if they do not arrive soon enough.

Stalling or standing stalwart in the face of evil does not necessarily mean attacking. It can mean continuing to engage in a battle of words, because let's face it, the badasses all love to gloat and engage in insulting behavior (as many evil badasses as good badasses, I must fairly add) until they arrive.

The paladin can tell him to do it, and the necromancer can refuse, but that doesn't mean the paladin has to attack immediately. He only really needs to attack if the necromancer tries to get away with the undead, or if he sends the undead to harm or injure or terrorize other people, or if he sends the undead against the paladin himself*. The paladin can simply continue to ask despite the refusal, explain his rationale for why it is a bad thing, do what it takes to keep the evildoer waiting for the paladins to arrive.

To me the easiest and most rewarding way to play a paladin is to make nothing about it "easy". The expectations and demands are insurmountable to anyone but a true paragon of virtue, and even then, you are bound to fail...but you must continue to atone, atone, atone and show your dedication. Atone even when you do not have to atone. Atone when you feel you've made an error in judgment, and do not wait for the god or goddess to steal your powers away to make amends for what you perceive as your own failings.

Note, of course, that these are all only my personal opinions, and not the opinions of all DMs. I may be more or less hardcore than them, I cannot really say. I doubt people agree with me thinking it is fun to have the weight of the world on your shoulders as a character, but it is just how I see paladins.

I think people should see them as saints or as madmen, or both.

*This has a caveat: there are some rare constellations of circumstances that make it the "good" thing for a paladin to not attack the undead even when the undead is attacking him. I won't get into spelling them out, but I can foresee such instances. They fall under the "nothing about being a paladin is easy" I mentioned above.

Vaylek wrote:

Hmm, fair enough, BUT, how far should you take this 'lawful stupid' outlook? Hypothetical situation (which could easily happen on Amia):

Paladin A is waiting outside Kampo's to meet Paladins B and C.

Because it's Amia: Is he waiting to meet them IC or OOC? Don't look at me like that, you know it happens.

I know Delia would instantly react, alone or not. But we've proven she can edge into Lawful Stupid.

When a group of players with strong builds and pvp experience comes together in a faction, it will just about always cause problems for other players if they are PvP trigger happy.

Doesn't matter how many "good" guys there are around to get bullied, it takes alot more to get anyone to band together against a larger faction, and the ONLY time I've seen this from all sides was when everyone attacked the Banite fortress in the Crags, after the long battle in the forest well over a year ago.

Since then, when I were in the EO, any single or duo of necromancers or anyone else that stood in our way really had little chance, because we got both numbers AND experience on our side, as well as strong builds that we know how to use.

Same now holds true for the Banites, giving them the power to push other PCs around in just about any situation, because if they jump anyone they will most likely have numbers and experience on their side. And if they don't, you can be damn sure they have builds and experience on their side.

Getting "good" groups together is a serious hassle, because as long as everyone isn't following a single deity, idioligy or somilar, it's going to be filled with conflict, internal battle and power struggles and ultimatly fail.

I left the EO, because I personally felt it became lame and unfair to always jump other PCs, then do as we pleased (within reason) to them. And it's the reason why I now don't bother going to wherever large groups that fit the description go. I simply disapprove of that kind of RP, though I'm not going to judge the people that do it. Everyone's got their own tastes and views and whatnot, though IMHO that sort of RP should stay with the people that enjoy it, and not leak over to people who's days get ruined by it.

Gravemaskin wrote:

Everyone's got their own tastes and views and whatnot, though IMHO that sort of RP should stay with the people that enjoy it, and not leak over to people who's days get ruined by it.

Gotta QFE this

I'm just going to speak for the banites regarding the last few posts (hope 762 doesn't mind), because it does relate to our faction. Not trying to hijack the thread so feel free to ignore or not reply.

Gravemaskin wrote:

Same now holds true for the Banites, giving them the power to push other PCs around in just about any situation, because if they jump anyone they will most likely have numbers and experience on their side. And if they don't, you can be damn sure they have builds and experience on their side.

Getting "good" groups together is a serious hassle, because as long as everyone isn't following a single deity, idioligy or somilar, it's going to be filled with conflict, internal battle and power struggles and ultimatly fail...

...Everyone's got their own tastes and views and whatnot, though IMHO that sort of RP should stay with the people that enjoy it, and not leak over to people who's days get ruined by it.

Speaking for the banites, this is tricky when the central thrust of Bane's dogma is dominating and ruling over others. By definition we have to impose our style of RP onto others, or else we wouldn't be being lore accurate at all as banites. When it comes to pvp, however, we are all very observant of the rules, and really don't want to spoil the game for anyone who would rather avoid us and the RP we bring. Sure, we have experience, numbers and builds that help in pvp, but we are that way so as to strengthen our RP. I think anyway.

If we were easily defeated in a violent confrontation, we wouldn't be taken seriously at all, let alone feared, like canon banites should be. It really just comes with the territory but it doesnt make us trigger happy, pvp-focused, or unable to deal with defeat. Hell, we still lose pvp's and also take far greater losses which we have to march through, e.g. losing faction areas.

If the banites are looking stronger than any other faction today (which I would argue we are), its because of dedication, teamwork, great leadership, and just from being around a hell of a long time. The amount of work Darthion put into the faction in terms of our forums, planning the new temple, and just his own RP and insights into Amia, much of which he passed onto current members, is really insane! And our current leader has a similar work ethic. I mean a lot of work has gone in and I think it needs to be recognised and appreciated.

Its not fair to reduce all that work and RP into 'A bunch of players with pvp experience banding together so they can push around other PCs'. Its not fair to the players who have patiently spent a long time building something from the ground up that has possibly now risen head and shoulders over other smaller factions. Its a question of whether you want to reward factions that are well organised and hard working or whether you chop them off at the knees because you think they're wrecking the game for others.

I realise there are many complex factors in play here, the main one being most enjoyment for all, but I just wanted to speak from my faction's POV.

PS. Thanks for the reply Yossarin, very insightful. Good way of imagining how the ideal paladin should be seen, either as a saint or a madman.

I weren't taking a stab at the Banites. The EO was in the exact same position about a year ago, and they still are at times.

The fact is that playing a group that goes looking for trouble and a group with alot of PvP is going to breed trouble and OOC grief on one or both sides. When I played in the EO, I offered whoever we captured an IC way out of it by escaping or something similar in case they didn't like where the RP were going.

I quite simply dislike groups with strong PvP backing that ICly push people around. It's a personal taste thing. I see it as bullying, and when you're the one initiating the conflict (and akin to when an epic orders non epics about). Giving them an IC out that doesn't involve torture, beheading or burning or anything else that might make them cross, is a nice thing to do. '

It's a whole other story if they go looking for trouble themselves, that's simply consequence for hostile actions as I see it.

What I did when Playing an EO was; if we attack, offer an IC way out OOCly. If they take it, fine enough and my char'd look bad for a sec. If not, great! Now I know they aren't unhappy about the RP.

If THEY attack, it's consequences for hostile actions as I see it, and giving an IC way out from that, if they are uncomfortable with it would just be silly. They'd get to do their thing, and we'd be denied punishing them.

Though as I said, it's personal preference. I do honestly believe though, that you'd eliminate a good deal of OOC anger on both sides, by doing this (also on both sides).

Yes, I agree, giving IC outs (and not feeling humiliated by taking them sometimes) is very important.

But I think OOC grief is a separate matter entirely. From my experience that will happen in about 30-50% of all pvp's, regardless of whether you do the right thing or not. The best way to avoid that grief is, as the aggressor, try and RP talking to the other character a bit before giving the actual threats/warnings, just so they can see you're an RPer and dont think your just trying to stomp their character down and laugh in their face.

With power comes responsibility. Gravemaskin's concerns are ones I've felt myself at times because I've been on the short end of the IC bullying side of things in the past. It's particularly frustrating when the person doing it has an almost unbeatable powerbuild, insane numbers on their side, or both. You get the feeling they are just looking for an excuse to PvP you, which is sometimes true.

That is not the culture we have in the Banites, though. We're not out to gank anyone or wreck their fun. We're out to RP Banites, the big bad guys of the Forgotten Realms who everyone loves to hate. And yes that does involve IC intimidation (Bane is the god of fear and tyranny, after all) but that in no way precludes OOC courtesy, which is something we strive hard for. I think everyone in the faction realizes while that playing the bad guys, it becomes even more important to show that.

Just for some perspective, this is quoted verbatim from the standing orders thread regarding the Skull Crags, in the Banite forums:

Quote:

(( Some OOC instructions here.

First and foremost, the intent here is to generate conflict RP, NOT PvP. PvP should always be considered the last resort unless the RP itself leaves no other realistic option. The very last thing we need as a faction is a reputation of PvP happy gankers. What we do want, is a reputation of courteous players who RP evil well and contribute to Amia's RP landscape in a positive way. Not everyone is going to be reasonable enough to see that, but if we conduct ourselves in a courteous OOC fashion, the majority will.

That said, there WILL be PvP with this, so please make sure you know the PvP rules inside and out. In particular, always give an IC out (which will usually be allowing them to leave the area), give IC indication before you attack, and always set hostile first (don't forget to rein in your summon before you do).

Maximum OOC courtesy should be shown. This particularly applies to groups that are hunting. Always try to find an IC excuse not to rain on their day, if all they want is to hunt and be left alone.

NEVER pass a group that is hunting, even if it should lead to PvP. Just turn around and go the other way.

Above all use common sense, and screenshot any OOC trouble that occurs. ))

With that said, there has been a fair amount of PvP recently, which has gone both ways. And I will say at least half the time the big bad Banites are not the aggressors. Usually it's the good guys saying "screw this, we're gonna take back the Skull Crags" (which is fine with me).

In each instance I've remarked how smoothly it's gone and with minimal OOC fuss (at least, I've heard very little of it). I'm very grateful to the players of the three factions we've mainly been in conflict with, as well as the Banite players, for helping make that the case.

Of course we're human beings and there will be occasional screwups, even by the faction leader. So long as things remain on an OOCly civilized level though, those can be dealt with and learned from with minimal fuss.

BrainSplitter wrote:

Gravemaskin wrote:

Everyone's got their own tastes and views and whatnot, though IMHO that sort of RP should stay with the people that enjoy it, and not leak over to people who's days get ruined by it.

Gotta QFE this

I was caught in the middle of a conflict between Banites and the EO + Red Knights, as my paladin. I wanted some random roleplaying and found a random kobold and as we both RPed a pair of Banites came.

I was worried there would be PvP, but I kept RPing talking, wanting to know about their faith and how they planned to achieve all that and more; we talked about societies ruled by fear never working, they said how it could work and by then, two other Banites appeared, while the kobold left. I kept talking to them, doing my best to avoid PvP/smite trigger happy paladin and they also did not force situations for a possible PvP.

The PvP started when members of the EO and some Red Knights appeared. OOC, I was dreading that, I did not want to enter PvP but I did what I think was right of my paladin to do: IC knowing the Banites' mighty reputation, I stayed out of the fight (I hostiled the Banites, but said I would only PvP if it was in self-defense) and thought, IC: "Oh, well... someone will have to recover the bodies or corpses after this is over, before they become troll food". Besides, they had told me about a Lathanderite dead by the crystal and while they fought I went after the corpse, except that it was only IC and physically, the body was not there, so I assumed the player logged out or respawned or someone else got the body; and then walked back to the fight, which was already over by then. ^^;

When I went back I emoted my wary behaviour and was bold enough to try persuading them to give me the bodies; they disagreed, but gave me the IC out, which I, obviously, took. I came back later since the Monastery was on the way and sent a Tell to one of the Banites asking what would be the IC scenery I would find because I would try to recover heads and bodies if they were there. I was told they were taken somewhere else, which obviously meant I should look for the bodies. But I was about to loggout, anyway, and noticed the username of some of the players involved in the conflict logging out. So I left it at that.

It was superb RP, they indeed followed all the rules and my only problem was with myself, unsure if I had, indeed, done the right thing with my paladin.

I know I mentioned an In-Game RP, but since it was not an 'incident' and I talked about it in a positive light, I hope I did not break any forum rules. ^^;

I sure don't mind.

Thanks for posting.

An interesting situation, but I can't see anything immediately fallworthy about all that.

Some random facts:

# It has taken 4½ years to build the Banite faction from virtually nothing to what it is today.
# Those 4½ years have been a struggle. Both with DM relations, relations within the faction and relations to players outside of the faction.
# Most of the time people initiate hostilities towards us. Not the other way around. (Though I'm not saying there isn't reason for it. Banites tend to be arrogant evil bastards)
# We have -strongly- emphasized OOC guidelines on how to conduct ourself in regards to PvP and conflict RP. And those guidelines are enforced in-game as well.
# Although the faction is well known for its powerbuilds, the majority of the faction has crappier builds than the Amian average (IMHO).
# The PvP experience, module knowledge and powerbuilding prowess comes from each individual by itself within the faction. Contrary to popular belief, there's only... 4 current characters in the Banite faction, that uses one of my builds. And those players could have just as easily made those builds themselves. A lot of the Banite players have had extensive PvP experience from the past. And those that don't, soon get it, as they find themselves being gangraped consistently by Banite-haters as they try to make their way up.
# We don't encourage powerbuilds. But when members of the faction ask, we don't hide the fact that they will probably not enjoy playing a Banite with a build that 99% of the server can grief upon. And it will be griefed upon.
# We have always... -always-, been outnumbered, as a whole, on Amia. The Banite faction has pretty much always had everyone else on the island against them.

There's always been a lot of stipulation, speculation, generalisation and assumption made in regards to the Banite faction. Most of those are incorrect. Some are true... since no one is flawless. But a lot gets exaggerated and spread on the basis of hearsay.

The only true way of ever getting a decent perspective and understanding of how things work within the conflict-based factions of Amia, is to join them. And give it a try.

Oddly, that I'll agree with you on and I did play a Banite for a while although honestly, while I had ideas with her I never really could get into playing her extensively enough.

Mr Mago wrote:

# The PvP experience, module knowledge and powerbuilding prowess comes from each individual by itself within the faction. Contrary to popular belief, there's only... 4 current characters in the Banite faction, that uses one of my builds. And those players could have just as easily made those builds themselves. A lot of the Banite players have had extensive PvP experience from the past. And those that don't, soon get it, as they find themselves being gangraped consistently by Banite-haters as they try to make their way up.

This, I can attest to. I've had pretty extensive PvP education from playing my drowsies for so long and a lot of the Banites are using pretty standard builds that have just been tweaked in certain ways and then played over and over and over and over in PvP situations until the players behind those characters have learned every trick, twist and turn to their build. It's not so much that the Banites are nasty, dirty powerbuilders that sacrifice RP for powerbuilds. We're no better or worse than any other faction on Amia. It's more that the Banites spend time IC, practicing PvP tactics IC'ly.... skirmishing against each other one-on-one and group-on-group with lots of good RP between those sparring matches.

Matter dropped

Strikeclone wrote:

In my paladin persona I would love to get into more RP fights with the legion of evil characters many of which seem to delight in meta gaming the lack of "detect evil" as an abilities (no doubt left out for some very good mechanic/RP reasons) How many of us have seen the PCs in town opening wearing bane/cyric etc insigina on their clothing or stated as wearing such in their bio.
Talking of bios how many evil PC (and to many non-evil I suspect) who are all 6'7"+ tall and who are all stunningly beautiful (without either con/cha to back up those statements) and they strut about town blurting out how evil and terrible they are butting into conversations between the handful of non-evil characters in order to score some emo points by openly displaying their hatred and distain for all and sundry.

This isn't an alignment issue, save for the chaotic stupid which sees no good or evil. I've spent most of my time on Amia RP'ing evil characters and I see goodies butting into situations and conversations and doing the same thing. However, I have noticed a disturbing trend in 7' tall PC's.... I guess it's the new fad. *shrug*

Detect Evil is a fun ability. However, it's so metagamey that it's not even funny. There are plenty of counters to Detect Evil/Good and could even be blamed on a residual aura that's left behind from something else. As well, if the paladin tries to Detect Evil on an aura from something too strong, it stuns him and leaves him dazed (something a lot of paladin players I've encountered don't even realize). I don't generally allow the use of it unless I trust the other player to responsibly use the information gathered and not just go, "Evil! I SMITE THEE!"

That being said, I don't think a DM would strip you of your abilities for being around an evil character that isn't acting very evil. The character starts punting puppies and squishing baby birds for no reason and your paladin just stands there and watches, well... then you might get in some trouble.

I had my NG good Cleric use Detect evil today on two CE brothers. It can be a wonderful RP tool when used right. Just have to be prepared for people to not approve of your use. If they dont, then tough luck.

ainjyll wrote:

Detect Evil is a fun ability. However, it's so metagamey that it's not even funny. There are plenty of counters to Detect Evil/Good and could even be blamed on a residual aura that's left behind from something else. As well, if the paladin tries to Detect Evil on an aura from something too strong, it stuns him and leaves him dazed (something a lot of paladin players I've encountered don't even realize). I don't generally allow the use of it unless I trust the other player to responsibly use the information gathered and not just go, "Evil! I SMITE THEE!"

This is exactly my point, there are not many counters to knowing an alignment good or evil or otherwise, and those measures that may be about are often temporary, expensive, rare or all of the above. Detect "insert alignment" is not meta gamy in and of itself, however in respect of evil (and maybe good) PCs using their complete power over its effects is more meta gamy. Without having to do a single thing in game a major ability of Paladins is completely by passed and why I understand why its not included in the solo game I am yet to be convinced why its not in a RP enviroment. I am sure its might be abused by a few paladins (like many powers and abilities Shadow dancers anyone...) if it was in game, however the lack if it is definately being abused by evil PCs who somehow IC know its not in effect OOC and freely join with a Paladin in order to metagame them into one ambush or another.

As a recent victim of two such attempts both by evil PCs one of which was nearly tripple my ecl the other merely double more or less I am beginning to develope a little impotent rage (knowing its highly unlikely that detect alignment will be introduced). Knowing thats its apparently ok to in effect nerf a class to prevent that class from some RP/metagame abuses but which clears the way for every evil aligned PC to be able to make full use of all those RP/abuses. Form a strictly gamers point of view this is daft, whilst I am sure there are many many computer game/programming issues with "detect alignment"

So whilst I am sure that some do remember to RP that evil PCs do not in fact know that detech evil is "switch off" and in fact do not have access to epic/rare/expensive meta game powers of anti alighment detection. It would seem there are many more who don't and have which is not to the benefit of anyone.

And so my point for the topic in this thread is that it may be disheartening to a good PC to be constantly at odds with over baring evil PCs who seem to know everything IC by know what is and is not in effect OOC.
My message to those evil PCs who may think that I have a point somewhere in my ramblings or who wish to improve their RP in order to generate more RP interaction with good PCs I hope the situation does improve.

PS I won't say no more on this topic as its being made clear to me in game that the ability to use OOC information IC is precious to some and I don't want to get smeared by those who know they are metagaming. I will just have to stop bothering to RP detect evil, on the assumption that if the bane clothed cleric in front of me doesnt say he has rare/epic/costly alignment covering gear I might not get the ache with it. How ever I reserve the right to just walk away if I feel smell the odour of metagame poo. :lol:

Just a side note: Detect alignment spells are considered one of the rudest form of magic in FR society. Nobody would appreciate a paladin who walks around using detect evil all the time.

Quote:

Undetectable Alignment
Abjuration
Level: Brd 1, Clr 2, Pal 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature or object
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)

An undetectable alignment spell conceals the alignment of an object or a creature from all forms of divination.

There are also many others.

Anyways, you need consent from all parties involved to use a PnP spell.

Some of my chars are likely to attack someone trying to read their alignment OR react very negativly to the casting of a spell for various reasons:
A. Lacking spellcraft, and don't know what spell it is.. for all they know it's a dangerous one.
B. Sees it as invasion of privacy and self. As such repays the favor.
C. Simply don't like people randomly casting a spell at them without asking.

Just asking OOCly is not always the best of ideas. Not asking ICly can have consequences. :wink:

Vaylek wrote:

Just a side note: Detect alignment spells are considered one of the rudest form of magic in FR society. Nobody would appreciate a paladin who walks around using detect evil all the time.

Sort of like the D&D version of a dog sniffing your butt, huh?

:lol:

my cleric detects poison
people don't seem to mind.

Detecting poison is a tad different to having some zealous bigot gaze into the very depths of your soul.

Last edited by 762 on Tue, Apr 27 2010, 22:30 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Detect alignment is not cast "on" someone.

It's more like a dog sniffing the air, than someone's hiney.

Still, complaining about it not being allowed OOCly by the other party is like complaining that your wizard can't cast Fly, or that your cleric can't cast Word of Recall.

The Numerically named Banite has it.

It's cast on oneself and then the person looks towards wht they wish to detect.

Look at someone they wish to detect, stare at them for 18 seconds and in doing so gaze into the very depths of their soul? The gazing hasn't changed - your alignment is still part of who you are, and not only can they tell what alignment you are, they can tell how strong it your aura of it is. If this isn't a violation of your privacy I don't know what is. It's like saying someone X-raying you without consent isn't fine, but since they do the entire block that's okay.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm

Quote:

Detect Evil
Divination
Level: Clr 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped emanation
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 min./ level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.
1st Round

Presence or absence of evil.
2nd Round

Number of evil auras (creatures, objects, or spells) in the area and the power of the most potent evil aura present.

If you are of good alignment, and the strongest evil aura’s power is overwhelming (see below), and the HD or level of the aura’s source is at least twice your character level, you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends.
3rd Round

The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.
Aura Power

An evil aura’s power depends on the type of evil creature or object that you’re detecting and its HD, caster level, or (in the case of a cleric) class level; see the accompanying table. If an aura falls into more than one strength category, the spell indicates the stronger of the two.
Creature/Object Aura Power
Faint Moderate Strong Overwhelming

1. Except for undead and outsiders, which have their own entries on the table.
2. Some characters who are not clerics may radiate an aura of equivalent power. The class description will indicate whether this applies.

Evil creature1 (HD) 10 or lower 11-25 26-50 51 or higher
Undead (HD) 2 or lower 3-8 9-20 21 or higher
Evil outsider (HD) 1 or lower 2-4 5-10 11 or higher
Cleric of an evil deity2 (class levels) 1 2-4 5-10 11 or higher
Evil magic item or spell (caster level) 2nd or lower 3rd-8th 9th-20th 21st or higher
Lingering Aura

An evil aura lingers after its original source dissipates (in the case of a spell) or is destroyed (in the case of a creature or magic item). If detect evil is cast and directed at such a location, the spell indicates an aura strength of dim (even weaker than a faint aura). How long the aura lingers at this dim level depends on its original power:
Original Strength Duration of Lingering Aura
Faint 1d6 rounds
Moderate 1d6 minutes
Strong 1d6×10 minutes
Overwhelming 1d6 days

Animals, traps, poisons, and other potential perils are not evil, and as such this spell does not detect them.

Each round, you can turn to detect evil in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it

@Mr.Mago

Thank-you for your quote on the spell with "Saving Throw: None" and "Spell Resistance: No"

1) PnP spells have to be agreed on by all parties.
2) I've had DM's tell me in-game of up to 3 other different ways that a PC, by Amia-DM ruling, would be able to prevent themselves by being affected by Detect x-Alignment. That is, even if they are Detected on, it won't be distinguished for one reason or another.
3) Tormak already quoted on of the IC solutions.

So as much as people do/don't like Detect x-Alignment, it's a bit of a moot point to argue when it's always and only allowed by consent.

I've given constent many times to being Detected and nearly once was caught while Weston was in possession of a very evil artifact by a member of the Eternal Order; that could have been disasterous if they had gone more than the 1st round to realize the direction of the evil presence. I almost had a patient detect evil on Weston while his soul has been sold and I gave consent before the other player changed their mind. People don't normally think of my PC's as ones to shoot with a detect evil, so when it happens, I'll usually go along with it if I think the other PC has a legitimate reason to want to know. So as easy as it is to always agree when you're a Good PC being hit wit Detect Evil (effectively, finds nothing,) I've still had plenty of reason I wouldn't want to be Detected for Evil as a "good-two-shoes" Weston can be.

The main goal should be: If it's going to hurt the RP, don't do it. If it could help the RP or make things interesting, ask for the permission. If you don't want to be metagamed on it, don't put hints in your PC Bio and assume nobody reads that.

If somebody metagames is against the rules. But if you want to help it keep from happening, don't make it any easier for it to happen in the first place. I can speak from experience on that.

Matter dropped.

Hmm... where have your bad experiences come from StrikeClone? Have you just been sending tells to people saying "I'm a paladin and I just used detect evil, did I detect your character is evil?" then I wouldnt be surprised some people aren't cooperating...

It's either a NwN ability, or a PnP ability. Detect Alignment spells (and spell-like abilities) are 100%, purely the latter.

So you really have nothing to complain about if someone doesn't wish to allow it. The rules state that owning PnP products are not required to play the game. If it's not in NwN, it's optional, unless a DM rules otherwise.

The sooner you realize and accept that, I think the better for your own gaming experience. Because if your paladin RP is reliant upon that one PnP ability which can be (and rightly should be, at times) refused at any time, you're probably doing it wrong.

People also fail to concider item auras from this spell.

Cast detect evil on a paladin that carries two maximus legbones would most likely read as Evil, thanks to the spell with evil descriptor on it.

Also if you take Taint into concideration, most good chars would probably read as evil too. As taint on someone will read as evil.

Someone detecting evil on a good or neutral char might get a false positive thanks to a number of things. And end up looking like a fool if they accuse someone of being evil for it.

Caster never knows, and I'm not sure if you can say you're a bad sport no matter if you reply with yes or no, regardless of it being true or not for your alignment.

Also here's a copy of what the spell actually does. Most people assume you direct it at a single person and instantly get a reply if they are evil or not. This is wrong.

Quote:

Detect Evil
Divination
Level: Clr 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped emanation
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 min./ level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.

1st Round
Presence or absence of evil.

2nd Round
Number of evil auras (creatures, objects, or spells) in the area and the power of the most potent evil aura present.

If you are of good alignment, and the strongest evil aura’s power is overwhelming (see below), and the HD or level of the aura’s source is at least twice your character level, you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends.

3rd Round
The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.
Aura Power

An evil aura’s power depends on the type of evil creature or object that you’re detecting and its HD, caster level, or (in the case of a cleric) class level; see the accompanying table. If an aura falls into more than one strength category, the spell indicates the stronger of the two.

Creature/Object Aura Power
Faint Moderate Strong Overwhelming

1. Except for undead and outsiders, which have their own entries on the table.
2. Some characters who are not clerics may radiate an aura of equivalent power. The class description will indicate whether this applies.

Evil creature1 (HD) 10 or lower 11-25 26-50 51 or higher
Undead (HD) 2 or lower 3-8 9-20 21 or higher
Evil outsider (HD) 1 or lower 2-4 5-10 11 or higher
Cleric of an evil deity2 (class levels) 1 2-4 5-10 11 or higher
Evil magic item or spell (caster level) 2nd or lower 3rd-8th 9th-20th 21st or higher

Lingering Aura
An evil aura lingers after its original source dissipates (in the case of a spell) or is destroyed (in the case of a creature or magic item). If detect evil is cast and directed at such a location, the spell indicates an aura strength of dim (even weaker than a faint aura). How long the aura lingers at this dim level depends on its original power:

Original Strength Duration of Lingering Aura
Faint 1d6 rounds
Moderate 1d6 minutes
Strong 1d6×10 minutes
Overwhelming 1d6 days

Animals, traps, poisons, and other potential perils are not evil, and as such this spell does not detect them.

Each round, you can turn to detect evil in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

Quote:

Detect Evil (Sp)

At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.

From that one, killing several undead creatures might actually make some of their lingering aura stick to you and be read as a false positive. Though that would be up to a DM to decide. But killing a level 30 undead for instance, or a spawn of undead from the manor of mourn... might make your char read as evil thanks to the undead's aura for several days, as a result of magic resonance.

I believe it's pretty standard that if a player asks permission to use a PnP spell, then they, by default, have to allow PnP counters to that spell. Undetectable Alignment is an extremely low-level spell, so almost any bard or cleric you run across will have access to it.

A very appropriate reason people deny the use of Detect x alignment is that it can often be used as a reason to engage in PvP. There are often other clues as to a character's alignment besides the use of a detection spell.

Matter dropped

At Gravemaskin: I talked about that in the previous thread ... from what I could figure, an Abyss trip would make you reek of evil for hours. Not to mention the number of spells that give wrong results and lead to no results (mindblank).
I had one memorable occasion when I granted a paladin permission to use it on me ... only to discover that he was half my level. Naturally my response was "you're stunned for a round" and he had a most unhappy evil person around.

Strikeclone wrote:

Vaylek wrote:

Hmm... where have your bad experiences come from StrikeClone? Have you just been sending tells to people saying "I'm a paladin and I just used detect evil, did I detect your character is evil?" then I wouldnt be surprised some people aren't cooperating...

Yes this is it exactly...respond with reasoned arguement with a stupid personal attack. well done and p.s. grow up.

people are still deliberatly missing the point.

I can not break it down in to simpler terms so I can't help that some people just don't want to loose their meta gaming edge by properly RPing the games lack of a very real core ability of the classic d&d class. Just don't expect me to play tag if your a crap evil RPer, if I get a sniff of emo rage meta gaming I will be sorely temped to respond in kind and summon my P&P Paladin mount and run away from the P&P shielded mustwinevil PC :lol:

P.P.S. must be getting close to the mark for some meta gamers to be drawing fire for asking for evil players to be more honest in their RPing...

What?

Strikelone, drop it. I don;t know why you're raging over the Detect Evil thing and I don't really much care. But you need to drop it.

I would find the ability OOC'ly lazy, anyway. I'd have a lot more admiration for the player of a paladin character that unknowingly travels with incredibly evil characters, and, upon witnessing their evil, is forced to strike them down... and deal with the emotional baggage that comes with slaying close friends. As-is, the detect evil ability, if used, almost renders betrayal impossible.

Anyway... they should have kept alignment to just the law/chaos axis.

Last edited by Vaylek on Thu, Apr 29 2010, 0:35 AM, edited 2 times in total.

Haha, yeah dude what the hell? I'm not trying to 'play tag with you' or keep my 'emo rage metagaming edge'! (???) You can use detect evil on my character all day. I don't mind, I'll allow it. All you really have to do is read Vaylek's bio and you'll get a clue if he's a good guy or a bad guy.

Just saying not every player on Amia is going to co-operate if you demand information from them because of a pnp ability. Read what Gurth said, that's Amia's rules. They gotta agree to giving you the benefit of a pnp ability, and its a case by case basis.

The more polite you are in tells, and the less you... do what you just did to people who don't tell you what you want to hear... the better your chances are of having people say "Okay, sure, detect evil reveals.... EVIL!"

The fact is paladin orders in FR get infiltrated all the time, and since it is so easy for paladins to fire of the ability, it would be rather difficult for someone evil to do so unless paladins don't fie it off at every person they meet, which would imply that there is some moral reason they don't.

Besides, what you should really be doing is detecting, getting their consent... then asking the DM if they are evil, because they will know about counters and what your character actually sees, and if they are stunned. Because many, many non evil characters are carrying items that would cause them to blink up evil, including my own character.

That's actually a great IC justification why Amia paladins rarely use detect evil on account of not trusting it.

When it comes right down to it, it's not really a great ability. Neither are the other detects of Chaos, LAw, and Good.

TormakSaber wrote:

Besides, what you should really be doing is detecting, getting their consent... then asking the DM if they are evil, because they will know about counters and what your character actually sees, and if they are stunned. Because many, many non evil characters are carrying items that would cause them to blink up evil, including my own character.

This is a great idea. It would be great for a paladin to get an evil reading on another good character... perhaps leading to them taking action against that character that causes the paladin to fall from grace.... mmmm... my RP glands are in need of milking just thinking about it.

I don' mean it in a malevolent "Ha ha I made you fall". Nothing wrong with a stark realization that some times your Divine-o-vision gets clouded, though.

Of course not. A DM's job is to further RP (among other things). Clouding that divine-o-vision would do just that.

Paladins are lame.... :roll:

Where have all the good men gone?

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