View unanswered posts | View active topics * FAQ    * Search
* Login 




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 69 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Krin
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 06 2015, 18:51 PM 



Player

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Location: California

I'm trying to avoid posting an essay here for people to sort through, so I'm going to keep this as short and sweet as possible now and expand on things people have questions/comments about later.

Sorcerers, as I've always understood them, are basically magical people that are born with an innate connection to the Weave. I'm not a D&D expert, but I have done a lot of poking around over the years while trying to understand the class and how it should be portrayed. It's always seemed very strange to me that sorcerers, despite their flowery class description, are very lacking in flavor in NWN and 3.5 D&D.

They don't get any bonus feats or flavor abilities. Despite being described as casters who use magic with instinct and force of will rather than careful study and calculation, they're tied to the same spell list wizards are(I would argue that sorcerers don't actually cast 'spells'.) They don't get any of the 'fluff' abilities that wizards have in RP. Mechanically, they're basically gutted wizards that can cast more often..though.. that advantage is easily wiped away on the server because items with bonus wizard spell slots are so much more common than items with bonus sorcerer spell slots.

I think the class needs an overhaul. I'm not delusional enough to think that a huge overhaul is possible at the moment, but because the Improving Amia section is closed off right now, I just wanted to put a few ideas out there and get some feedback from the rest of the community.

I'm going to keep these basic for now because I don't want the OP to be too long, but here are a few things I've been bouncing around with a couple other players.

  Cantrips and Level 1 spells

Sorcerers are supposed to cast from their own personal 'mana pool', so it doesn't make a lot of sense that cantrips and level 1 spells would do anything to 'drain' an epic sorcerer. I think that epic sorcerers should get unlimited castings of Cantrips and Level 1 spells. I think they should also get a lot more access to PnP cantrips and level 1 spells. These are supposed to be simple magical effects. It doesn't make sense that a sorcerer wouldn't be able to access them.



  Bloodlines

The source of a sorcerer's abilities should be a pretty major part of the class. I think we should introduce bloodlines to Amia that would grant bonus abilities and weaknesses depending upon the bloodline of a sorcerer. If your sorcerer is a sorcerer because they have the blood of a dragon/fey/outsider/whatever in them, they should get abilities that reflect that heritage.



   Flexibility

I think sorcerers should have much more control over their magic than any ordinary wizard does. A sorcerer's magic is an extension of his/her will. It shouldn't be static or restrictive. If a sorcerer can produce a fireball, he should also be able to generate a simple flame from his hand to light a campfire.



  Bonus Feats

Sorcerers are supposed to be innately magical beings. It really doesn't make sense that they get so very little skill points to devote to 'caster' skills like Spellcraft. I think the class should get bonus Skill Focus feats in the caster skills to make up for that.



Short version:

Sorcerers are mechanically treated like dumb wizards that cast more often. I think they should be treated more like magical creatures.


 
      
Mercedes
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 06 2015, 19:04 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 14 Dec 2011

Dark Immolation did a nice IC writeup I believe would compliment this thread, as a Sorcerer fan myself. However the RP potential is amazing! the mechanics and interesting requests are at your fingertips already. Being creative and mastering your own power through your own talent and merit is what some would say being a Sorcerer is all about ;)


 
      
Solvaras
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 06 2015, 19:29 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 22 Mar 2011

The cantrips and level 1 spells being unlimited wont happen. Unlimited castings of grease alone would deny that. The bloodlines part is intriguing, but if people are already free to look into their bloodline and request abilities based on that. The part about flexability confuses me a bit. The whole point of a sorcerer, at least to me, is you are intimately aquainted with a few select spells. Wizards know more because of their research. You're naturally not flexible due to that limitation. The bonus feats in pnp are for metamagic, but nwn makes them have a few more options.


 
      
NinjaClarinet
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 06 2015, 19:54 PM 



Player

Joined: 12 Jul 2010

You basically want to play a warlock.


 
      
serbiris
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 06 2015, 20:13 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia

I'm fairly well-versed in D&D lore, so I have considered this topic. You brought up something that used to bother me a lot: Sorcerers are born magical and receive minimal formal training - so why do they cast the same spells and in the same way as wizards? Shouldn't they work differently from the institutionalised and academic study of magic? Why can't they be more flexible? Well, from a thematic point of view, maybe, but it does make sense if you consider the nature of the Weave. That is, it's the structure that grants mortal access to raw magical power. Because it has this structure, it doesn't allow users - wizard or sorcerer - to wield its power flexibly. Spells are packaged raw magic with their own shape and format. Wizards study to wield them, whereas sorcerers have an innate grasp of how to handle these packages ( :roll: ). Think of them as savants, "born in the saddle" so to speak. If the Weave was flexible enough to permit them to wield part of a spell or expand them at will (instead of requiring metamagic "templates"), sorcerers would have that sort of power. But alas, this is D&D, the system they've set forth for us is what we've got.

Regarding bloodlines: inb4 Yoss/some other ninny trumpeting Pathfinder but yes, the people at Paizo noticed that Sorcerer bloodlines were neglected in D&D, so they added on a series of "Bloodline" abilities that progress as you level up. As you can expect, most of them suck, I think only one or two were worthwhile (if that) but they covered stuff like demonic/devilish heritage (think they grow claws and maybe wings, and gain some resistances), aberrant/far realm (tentacles), draconic (the "default"), there might have been a fey one and a few other outsider ones too. They were neat. But the system required to implement this out of the box is massive, and the abilities will probably be terrible. However, it's also a fantastic starting point for requests - start requesting uses per day widgets reflecting your sorcerous bloodline and your efforts in untapping them.

As to their lack of existing flavour - to be completely fair, the Dragon Disciple class is based off the Sorcerer, even though no one ever makes Sorcerer/DDs instead opting for the more effective Bard/DD. Aside from that the only real existing source of flavour is their Charisma which has plenty of roleplaying potential (even though the skill rolls are rarely used, but if you're the sort of person who won't play a charismatic PC without high charisma - sorc is a good way to go). I will argue against their supposed deficiency vs late-game wizards however: Those slots have to be prepared, which is an incredibly tedious process that is unforgiving to mistakes and slips. It was even worse before they started fixing the "Lost slot = empty slot" issue, I'm not sure if that's been resolved. Having played both extensively, I would say that I rather the ease-of-use benefits of the sorcerer, not to mention the versatility of being able to freely spam to exploit a given enemy's weakness in PvP.

One thing about Sorcs which does bother me is their limited access to P&P spells: Most of the times wizards can just say "Yeah I have the spell", though sometimes a DM will make you prove it in advance. Sorcs have to give up precious spell selection or make up substitutes, which honestly is a bit messy. But there's no good way to fix this without standardising P&P spells and that's a bad idea forever.

So yeah, in summary: It's good to consider the class like you're doing, but your best recourse is to take ideas to the request forum than trying to enact any systemic changes. Also yeah a while back Dusty made a request for a Warlock, who are basically demon-pact sorcerers (in fact the base for the custom class is a sorcerer) who cast an even more limited pool of spells an infinite number of times per day. They had a ranged attack power which could progressed over time and could be modified with special effects, and a few other powers which they could use as much as they liked. The drawback of course was that they gained so few abilities that it made sorcerers look spoiled. And the class was kinda weaksauce, aside from being able to make the lives of DMs miserable ("I cast Shatter on everything in the room.") I dunno much about how Dusty's worked when he got it implemented.

_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293


 
      
Casvenx
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 06 2015, 21:14 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 11 Feb 2013
Location: Badlands of 'Murika

Sorcerers always seemed a bit overlooked in NWN to me. I mean, obviously PnP is going to be more flexible, but the sorcerer class progression is just... entirely empty. They get no flavor, no bonuses at all, and seem to just exist to appease the single-player gamers that want a wizard without having to deal with spell memorization.

IMO the warlock class is basically what sorcerer should have been, fluff and flavor wise at least (minus the pact with evil blackguard-ness). I'd agree that the class could use some love, if class overhaul level attention was considered... but otherwise I'd personally look at warlock stuff for individual sorcerer requests (though I of course have no idea if any would be approved, a lot looks like it could quickly tip the power levels).

I don't even know if it's possible to overhaul a base class? Or if that level of scripting work is at all realistic. It would be really cool to see some bloodline-type feats available to them, as a standard rather then request. Dragon stuff is already handled with DD's, but outsider lines would be interesting. Sorcerer PRCs would be ideal, and maybe some of the Player Resource Consortium stuff could be looked at/adapted? I imagine that's already been looked at and discarded, but I've never come across the discussion here. Otherwise it's probably even more work then I'm giving credit for, and unrealistic to consider. Though it does seem to me more beneficial if custom work is done, to make it available to the class rather then just one character. I've never really understood the decision to do custom scripted stuff for requests, but only make it available to that one character.

They get totally shafted on skills too... getting the lowest base pool, the same as fighters, clerics, or wizards. Fighters get a bunch of feats to represent their focus in combat training, and wizards get bonus skills from INT being their main stat, clerics get bonus stuff from their domains, while sorcerers just... get 2. Without the excuse of even dividing their studies. Their magic comes naturally, but for some reason they can't be bothered to learn any other skills it seems.

At the very least they really should get the bonus metamagic feats wizards get. Even as a natural (rather then studied) magic user, they both still use magic the same amount. It could even be argued the sorcerer's natural talent lets them learn to focus their ability even more than wizards studied efforts.

But, on the other hand, the mage classes are already the most powerful. Sorcerers may not get fair treatment in the system, but they are still 'winning'. I'd feel more sympathetic if the rest timer was longer.

_________________
Image


 
      
Yossarin
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 06 2015, 21:26 PM 



Player

Joined: 23 Jan 2006

Ah, Pathfinder fixed the-

Quote:
Regarding bloodlines: inb4 Yoss/some other ninny trumpeting Pathfinder but yes, the people at Paizo noticed that Sorcerer bloodlines were neglected in D&D, so they added on a series of "Bloodline" abilities that progress as you level up.


:|


 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 06 2015, 21:55 PM 

User avatar

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Don't worry Yoss, I made the same face too.

Ludonarrative dissonance is the phrase that comes to mind when I think of NWN Sorcerers and a few other classes. It's just a fancy word that means that your gameplay doesn't match what the story tells you that you're playing. The lore bills sorcerers as these magical people as Krin calls them who manipulate magic as an extension of their will. The 3.5 PHB even says "Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice." Yet, you could glean nothing of that by actually playing the class. Whether or not you can gain your fluff through DC requests isn't the point; requests can fluff out anything and relying on them to give the book-stated flavor to a class is a band-aid.

I could (and would) talk for ages about Sorcs, but it boils down to this for me: Yes, I would love to see the class overhauled or added onto in some way. Yes, I do believe this is possible without drastically shifting the "power" of the class, at least to anyone who doesn't already throw up their hands and say "30 X is already the best build in the game, technically!". No, I don't think it's anything that could be done soon, but it deserves enough discussion to the point we wouldn't want to rush it anyway. Eons ago in the tester forum I fatedly came up with some ideas for Sorcerer that matched some of your points, Krin. I didn't get around to scripting all of them, but I'll post the gist of them. Most of them are bonus feats, but I did have the idea for a "mana pool" that gets back to the idea that Sorcerers are indeed more natural in their casting than the stilted spells-per-level thing would have them seem.

_________________
Image
You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.


 
      
Krin
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 06 2015, 21:57 PM 



Player

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Location: California

Solvaras wrote:
he part about flexability confuses me a bit. The whole point of a sorcerer, at least to me, is you are intimately aquainted with a few select spells. Wizards know more because of their research. You're naturally not flexible due to that limitation. The bonus feats in pnp are for metamagic, but nwn makes them have a few more options.


I was admittedly vague on the flexibility thing. Basically, I think sorcerers should be more flexible with how they can manifest their abilities. Let's say a sorcerer wants to start a camp fire... If he can toss a fireball, why can't he produce a little fire from his hand to get the logs going? If he can cast Cone of Cold, why can't he chill a drink in his hand? That's what I was getting at. I've never understood sorcerers to just be intimately acquainted with a few select spells. They don't even get bonus metamagic feats, which is kind of crappy. The way the class reads does seem to be at odds with the way 3.5 has it set up mechanically though. Why would someone born with an innate connection to the Weave have less control over it than someone who learned years later?


NinjaClarinet wrote:
You basically want to play a warlock.


Nope. I don't think sorcerers should be able to cast all of their spells infinitely. It makes sense that drawing on their abilities would wear them out, but it doesn't make sense that an epic level sorcerer would be too tired to cast a magic missile but okay to cast a missile storm. If it was possible, I would want sorcerers to have some sort of mana pool that they can draw from to cast any of their spells. Bigger spells would cost more than weaker spells, but there would be no set 'spells per day'.

serbiris wrote:
Sorcerers are born magical and receive minimal formal training - so why do they cast the same spells and in the same way as wizards? Shouldn't they work differently from the institutionalised and academic study of magic? Why can't they be more flexible? Well, from a thematic point of view, maybe, but it does make sense if you consider the nature of the Weave. That is, it's the structure that grants mortal access to raw magical power. Because it has this structure, it doesn't allow users - wizard or sorcerer - to wield its power flexibly. Spells are packaged raw magic with their own shape and format. Wizards study to wield them, whereas sorcerers have an innate grasp of how to handle these packages ( :roll: ). Think of them as savants, "born in the saddle" so to speak. If the Weave was flexible enough to permit them to wield part of a spell or expand them at will (instead of requiring metamagic "templates"), sorcerers would have that sort of power. But alas, this is D&D, the system they've set forth for us is what we've got.


Hm.. I'm not sure I agree with this. The way I've always understood it is that a sorcerer casting a spell and a wizard casting a spell would be completely different. They're producing the same effect as the wizard, using their innate connection to the Weave, but the way the spell is cast would look/feel entirely different depending upon the caster. A sorcerer with fey blood wouldn't be casting 'Charm Person', they'd be using their connection to the Weave and their fey heritage to produce the effect that wizards have labeled 'Charm Person'.

But I'm no D&D expert. It just doesn't seem to fit that a class of natural casters would be stuck with so many limitations. I'm not expecting a class overhaul here. Just wanted to bounce ideas around. :)


 
      
Casvenx
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 06 2015, 22:37 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 11 Feb 2013
Location: Badlands of 'Murika

I think 'the Weave' makes it a slightly different situation on Faerun. Magic is governed more in FR than in basic D&D. Sorcerers access it naturally, but there are still limited ways it can be used. What you are describing really seems to be more of a warlock, creating supernatural effects that mimic spells. But my FR knowledge is mediocre at best, so...

For discussion fodder, I've always thought the primary attribute of sorcerers and clerics was backwards. Sorcerers exert their willpower, which is traditionally considered part of wisdom, to naturally control magical energies. What about that process has anything to do with force of personality (which is about the best general description of charisma I've seen)? Clerics request their power from a being of higher power. What part of that process requires excessive personal willpower? In a world of many gods and dogmas, how is it a wise person that chooses to push one above all others? Doesn't that all sound more like force of personality type stuff? The sermons, conversions, prayers... It all sounds much more CHA than WIS to me. Being someone fully dedicated to a God, how is it the cleric gets more willpower than the persons who literally use their willpower to shape the world around them? I know it's an (terribly) imperfect system in the first place, and in large part just a tradition from previous rule editions, but still. Even if the will save alone was based off CHA it would make more sense (and make it less of a dump stat).

Like I said, just discussion fodder, I'm not suggesting mechanical changes there. But I would also prolly give sorcerers the iron will feat as a bone to show the naturally strong willpower that is the backbone of the class concept but entirely ignored by the mechanics, if sorcerers were getting bones.

_________________
Image


 
      
Lutra
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 06 2015, 22:43 PM 



Player

Joined: 12 Feb 2008

I think a little felxibility would be a good thing, yet there should be some restriction.

Maybe the flexibility should be related to the sorcerer's ability to learn, aka int modifier? Just remember that sorcerer chick from NWN2 who got thrown out from the academy because she refused to do any "tomesniffing" and thus blew up the entire classroom.


 
      
Larsaan
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 06 2015, 22:59 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 26 Jun 2010

Personally, I like the idea of a bloodline system that works similiarly to domains. Choose one on your first sorcerer level and gain access to certain non-wizard spells, depending (or cast certain spells at a lower level).

Lutra wrote:
Just remember that sorcerer chick from NWN2 who got thrown out from the academy because she refused to do any "tomesniffing" and thus blew up the entire classroom.

Qara was a hothead who loved to blow stuff up anyway, though. And, arrogant though she may have been, cut content showed that she was actually holding a lot of power at bay, enough to terrify an ex-member of the Arcane Brotherhood.

_________________
Currently playing:
Aven BrinyflaskImage
Safaya Dalai
Riyit
Chsera Hile

(Credits to Raua for the sprite, sauce -here-.)


 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 06 2015, 23:23 PM 

User avatar

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Krin wrote:
  Bloodlines

The source of a sorcerer's abilities should be a pretty major part of the class. I think we should introduce bloodlines to Amia that would grant bonus abilities and weaknesses depending upon the bloodline of a sorcerer. If your sorcerer is a sorcerer because they have the blood of a dragon/fey/outsider/whatever in them, they should get abilities that reflect that heritage.



   Flexibility

I think sorcerers should have much more control over their magic than any ordinary wizard does. A sorcerer's magic is an extension of his/her will. It shouldn't be static or restrictive. If a sorcerer can produce a fireball, he should also be able to generate a simple flame from his hand to light a campfire.



  Bonus Feats

Sorcerers are supposed to be innately magical beings. It really doesn't make sense that they get so very little skill points to devote to 'caster' skills like Spellcraft. I think the class should get bonus Skill Focus feats in the caster skills to make up for that.



These three are essentially tied to the same thing, in my thinking. Sorcerer bonus feats would allow you to flesh out these to your own choosing. Instead of taking an overarching Bloodline, you would instead piece together your own from a set of open-to-all feats. I.E., if you want a Red Dragon sorcerer, you would take the bonus feats of Fire Resistance, Claws, and so on. Additionally, some feats would allow you to alter the shapes and such of spells on the fly, I.E. making your Cone spells a sell-targeted Burst of Cold/Fire/Acid by clicking on yourself instead of the target. Here's a few I wrote up. Note, these are the raw ideas. I suggest looking at the spirit of them, rather than pointing to specific numbers right now.

  Sorcerer Bonus Feats

One gained at 7, 14, 21 and 28. Energy Resistance, Arcane Defense, and Battle-Tested can be taken multiple times, as long as it is a different Energy/School/Weapon.

1. Spell Sweep:
A sorcerer finds that by using their natural magic in different ways, they can alter its application and shape. When casting a cone spell, they can choose to move their hands around, thus hosing down an area around them, rather than directly ahead. By casting any Cone Spell on himself as a target, the sorcerer changes the AoE of the spell into a 10 foot circle around his body. Affected Spells: Cone of Cold, Mestil’s Acid Breath, Prismatic Spray, Color Spray, and Burning Hands.

2. Ricochet
The sorcerer becomes adept at adapting certain ballistic spells to be more useful. Ray spells now function as Line attacks, affecting enemies similar to the way Lightning Bolt targets enemies. Projectile burst spells can "skip" off the ground once; if there is an enemy just outside the radius of the spell's "first" AoE, it will be cast again, once, at the nearest enemy that was not in the original AoE. Affected Spells- Ray: Ray of Cold, Negative Energy Ray, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ice Dagger. Affected Spells - Bounce: Fireball, Scintillating Sphere, Delayed Fireball.

3. Channel Spell
The sorcerer's magic flows forth like a river, bound only by their continuous will. When casting a spell in Defensive Casting mode, all hostile spells immediately repeat the next round, taking another appropriate spell slot, unless the caster moves or queues a different action. A Channeled Spell can only be Counterspelled at its initial casting; a channel already in progress cannot be countered. However, Channeling does require a concentration check. It can be broken by moving or receiving damage and failing the damage vs Concentration save.

4. Weapon Channel:
When connecting with a touch attack spell, the target also takes one generated “hit” from the Sorcerer’s main hand weapon. Affected Spells: Vampiric Touch, Combust, Ghoul Touch.

5. Resist Energy:
The sorcerer gains resistance to the element most aligned to his ancestors or paradigm. As per the normal feat, though the Sorcerer automatically meets the prerequisites when taking it as a bonus feat.

6. Allure:
Befitting of her ancestors, the sorceress is naturally gifted in wiles and charm. She gains a bonus to Persuade and Bluff equal to half her CL.

7. Imperious:
Like those that came before him, the sorcerer is naturally domineering and imposing. He gains a bonus to Intimidate and Taunt equal to half his CL.

8. Claws:
A manifestation of their draconic/feral/outsider heritage, the sorcerer gains sharpened nails and fingertips. His unarmed attacks deal extra damage. This works as per the feat Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike (+2 to unarmed damage) and Improved Unarmed Strike.

9. Animal Magnetism:
While many sorcerer’s power stems from worlds away, this one is born of the earth and her creatures. She gains Animal Empathy as a cross-class skill and Trackless Step as the default feat.

10. Battle-Tested:
Given that their magic comes so naturally, the Sorcerer has even more time to focus on the grittier aspects of combat. PC gains Weapon Focus in one Simple Weapon or Unarmed.

11. Arcane Defense:
The sorcerer becomes more hardened against spells related or opposing their paradigm. As per the Arcane Defense feat.

12. Changeling:
Any spells of the Polymorph subschool are automatically treated as Extended. Does not stack with Extend Spell. In addition, this qualifies the PC to take Shifter as a prestige class, if the Sorcerer knows Polymorph Self or Shapechange.



There was also one called Sheer Will, that would have allowed Sorcerers to use their CHA score to determine their Will save instead of WIS, the thought being that a class that manipulates reality by willpower should be able to use that force-of-self to muscle through brainwashing and enchantment. I couldn't decide if that should be something innate to the class or a Bonus Feat, but it was quickly shot down either way. And idea I came up with later that would change the base class was having a "mana pool" but I never looked into if it could be done without mechanically replacing the class with a HAK change.

  Mana Pool

Instead of Spells per Day, Sorcerers receive a pool of "points" based off of their class level and CHA modifier. When a spell is cast, its Spell Level is subtracted from the total. Cantrips, being 0-Level Spells, consume no points.



I liked this idea if only to get around explaining how the hell a Sorcerer can "run out" of Magic Missile castings, but the have no problem casting 14 IGMS's right after that. That to me reflects too much how Sorcerers are simply treated as "dumb wizards." A sorcerer need not even have a concept of spell levels, considering their powers are supposedly just pastiches of their ancestor's natural abilities. That is to say, the Green Dragon Sorcerer isn't consciously casting Mestil's Acid Breath, he's using innate magical power to mimic a Green Dragon's breath weapon, and so on. Beyond that, he can do it as much as he feels like until he's tired himself all out, completely.

A mana pool, just as much as any bloodline feat, would make the class feel more natural to me. I've always loved the idea of Sorcerers as superheroes/supermutants. Imagine if Cyclops could only specifically do 4 Small Eyeblasts, 5 large Eyeblasts, and 2 Mega Eyeblasts per day. It would be weird and stilted when "realistically" Cyclops should be able to chose to shoot 15 Small Eyeblasts, or 10 Large ones, or 5 Mega blasts, or any combination thereof on the fly, up until his lame, Professor X-killing ass gets tired.

_________________
Image
You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.


 
      
Krin
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 07 2015, 1:30 AM 



Player

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Location: California

Casvenx wrote:
I think 'the Weave' makes it a slightly different situation on Faerun. Magic is governed more in FR than in basic D&D. Sorcerers access it naturally, but there are still limited ways it can be used. What you are describing really seems to be more of a warlock, creating supernatural effects that mimic spells. But my FR knowledge is mediocre at best, so...


I can see where you're coming from, but I think that puts a little too much emphasis on wizards as the 'creators' in D&D. If a sorcerer goes through life without ever seeing or hearing of the Bigby's Forceful Hand spell, but some day finds himself in a situation where, in the heat of battle, something inside him tells him to punch his fist forward at a far away enemy and cry out... Is he still casting Bibgy's Forceful Hand when the big fist flies out? I don't think it works like that. It's always seemed to me that wizards would be the ones working to mimic effects that sorcerers can produce naturally. I don't think a wizard needs to invent a spell for a sorcerer to start throwing it around. That's why it seems strange to me that sorcerers would cast from the same spell list.

Casvenx wrote:
Will stuff


The willpower thing is another subject I hadn't gotten to yet. I totally agree with you there... doesn't make a lot of sense.

Also.. basically everything DI said. I'm not saying that sorcerers are mechanically weak and need goodies to buff themselves up, but right now the class seems to be very lacking in flavor feats and abilities.


 
      
bobofwestoregonusa
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 07 2015, 8:36 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Location: Eastern Washington

Sorcerer is already mechanically the most powerful class in NWN, it doesn't need to be changed.

_________________
Image
Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!


 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 07 2015, 9:03 AM 

User avatar

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Haha, I should have been taking bets until that got said.

Just to reiterate, flavor has very little to do with power per say. And changing something doesn't necessarily translate to making it more powerful in PvP or PvE, at least not in a way easily felt. To be quite honest, "X is already the most powerful thing" is a simplistic notion that repeatedly gets used to stifle worthwhile discussion. Even if changing something, for any class, did result in it being more powerful, it doesn't automatically mean it gets to be overlooked. The whole reason we've stayed afloat this long is because we have a platform that allows us to change and adapt to the continual narrative we have as players of the game. Nothing ever needs to be changed; we could have just left plain NWN. We make changes as we see fit.

Now. With that out of the way, I'm sure no one's opposed to hearing some alternatives or even specifics as to why things like this wouldn't work for us. That's valid. Anything but that same tired, lazy line that's been used against literally every single change topic, ever.

_________________
Image
You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.


 
      
MightNMagic
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 08 2015, 0:56 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Location: Space Australia

Flavor has a lot to do with power when "flavor" translates into actual mechanics and sorcerers are indeed the most powerful class in the game.

Already the question of "sorcerers vs wizard?" ends with "why would anyone choose wizard?" The reality of the NWN limited spell system is that on nearly any spell level you rarely ever actually cast more than 3 or 4 spells over and over again. Any wizard player will tell you that pretty much 90% of their spellbook is garbage mechanically and no one bothers to cast them.

Factor in more spells per day and the huge bonus of having what you need when you need it, sorcerers are indeed not something that needs "help" by coding things from splatbooks and Pathfinder when you realize you're working within the realities and context of NWN/Amia, not "every book written, ever. "

Lorewise sorcerers are X-men, wizards are Jedi. In game and fiction sorcerers are basically limited. They don't know what they're doing our how they're doing it. In fiction, most of them can't even control it or make use of it without compelling emotional need. Wizards on the other hand understand magic fully and can basically use it to bend reality to their will as they please.

In terms of the OP's suggestions, some are problematic.

Infinite level 1 spells is a bit much as their are more than a few that are overpowering. Magic missile is more powerful than most low level blast spells. Ray of Enfeeblement and grease are PvP winners. Sleep and color spray are effectively instant wins at low level and would basically null one of the biggest drawbacks of class balance, IE sorcerers are hard to level early on, by making levels 1 to 10 a breeze. Negative energy ray effectively turns a skeleton familiar into an immortal. Infinite grease, expeditious retreat, and true strike are unbalanced all the way to level 30.

"Flexibility?" Claiming a sorcerer is superior to a wizard in control or ability to manipulate magic is pretty much ignoring everything written about both classes. One is ignorant and limited, the other a learned master who can and has re-written reality to do things such as becoming a god, creating planes, and undoing time.

"Bonus feats?" The one thing a wizard gets over a sorcerer, you want? Why be a wizard again? To be honest, it's surprising spellcraft is even a sorcerer class skill given their lore.

Bloodlines are interesting and some overpowering, but then again, so are any number of things from splatbooks out there. I'd rather see Amia's precious scripting efforts focused on making the more underpowered and unplayed classes viable rather than one that needs it the least, personally.

_________________
Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind
Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice

(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)


 
      
Krin
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 08 2015, 2:42 AM 



Player

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Location: California

MightNMagic wrote:
Flavor has a lot to do with power when "flavor" translates into actual mechanics and sorcerers are indeed the most powerful class in the game.

Already the question of "sorcerers vs wizard?" ends with "why would anyone choose wizard?" The reality of the NWN limited spell system is that on nearly any spell level you rarely ever actually cast more than 3 or 4 spells over and over again. Any wizard player will tell you that pretty much 90% of their spellbook is garbage mechanically and no one bothers to cast them.

Factor in more spells per day and the huge bonus of having what you need when you need it, sorcerers are indeed not something that needs "help" by coding things from splatbooks and Pathfinder when you realize you're working within the realities and context of NWN/Amia, not "every book written, ever. "


I don't think it's true that sorcerers are the most powerful class in the game. That title belongs to clerics, especially battle clerics, and even more especially on a server like Amia where there are so many epic items available that nullify caster spells. Freedom, Improved Evasion, and 100% Immunity to damage types are available on items in game. I haven't seen any 100% Physical Damage immunity items floating around. That coupled with the scrolls in game and the fact that Clerics now have access to Greater Sanctuary as the Haven spell makes them the most powerful class on Amia. Sorcerers are useful for one thing: damage output. That isn't very useful in PvM because you'll run out of spells every couple spawns and in 'real' PvP, the other party can easily heal themselves until the big offensive spells run out. Most sorcerers, and mages in general, have pretty bad AC. If you get close to them as a melee character, they're going to die.


MightNMagic wrote:
Lorewise sorcerers are X-men, wizards are Jedi. In game and fiction sorcerers are basically limited. They don't know what they're doing our how they're doing it. In fiction, most of them can't even control it or make use of it without compelling emotional need. Wizards on the other hand understand magic fully and can basically use it to bend reality to their will as they please.


I don't think the idea that sorcerers know absolutely nothing about magic makes very much sense. Magic is part of what makes them who they are. That's kind of like saying that a person would grow up with legs attached and never learn how to use them. Sure, it takes a little while to get it working properly, which is why young sorcerers are always said to be dangerous because they're prone to emotional, accidental magical outbursts, but with enough practice they learn to control it. As natural casters, it makes more sense to me that their control of magic would be much deeper and more intimate than the control a wizard would have. It actually makes more sense that Sorcerers would be the Jedi. I'm no Star Wars lore junkie, but I'm pretty sure that powerful Jedi are born with a connection to the Force that they learn to master through training. That fits sorcerers pretty well.

MightNMagic wrote:
In terms of the OP's suggestions, some are problematic.

Infinite level 1 spells is a bit much as their are more than a few that are overpowering. Magic missile is more powerful than most low level blast spells. Ray of Enfeeblement and grease are PvP winners. Sleep and color spray are effectively instant wins at low level and would basically null one of the biggest drawbacks of class balance, IE sorcerers are hard to level early on, by making levels 1 to 10 a breeze. Negative energy ray effectively turns a skeleton familiar into an immortal. Infinite grease, expeditious retreat, and true strike are unbalanced all the way to level 30.


My suggestion isn't that they should get access to infinite castings of cantrips and level 1 spells at the start. I think they should get infinite castings after they reach 'Epic' in the Sorcerer class. If the idea is that they don't have memorized spells, but rather magical energy that they can use to produce spells however many times per day, it doesn't make much sense for an epic level sorcerer to be too tired to cast Light but have 6 castings of Sunburst left. Even if it's only cantrips that they get infinite castings of, it would still make more sense than 'running out'.

MightNMagic wrote:
"Flexibility?" Claiming a sorcerer is superior to a wizard in control or ability to manipulate magic is pretty much ignoring everything written about both classes. One is ignorant and limited, the other a learned master who can and has re-written reality to do things such as becoming a god, creating planes, and undoing time.

"Bonus feats?" The one thing a wizard gets over a sorcerer, you want? Why be a wizard again? To be honest, it's surprising spellcraft is even a sorcerer class skill given their lore.


Like I said above, this argument doesn't make very much sense to me. Wizards get access to every Arcane spell in NWN and every PnP spell..and a boat load of skill points that they can spread around...so.. Bonus feats aren't the only thing they get. If the way a sorcerer learns to control his magic is through practice and talent, why wouldn't they get Metamagic bonus feats that would give them more control over the spells they cast? Keeping this in the context of NWN....

This is the NWN description of the Sorcerer.

Sorcerer: Sorcerers are arcane spellcasters who manipulate magic energy with imagination and talent rather than studious discipline. They have no books, no mentors, no theories - just raw power that they direct at will. Sorcerers know fewer spells than wizards do and acquire them more slowly, but they can cast individual spells more often and have no need to prepare their incantations ahead of time. Also unlike wizards, sorcerers cannot specialize in a school of magic. Since sorcerers gain their powers without undergoing the years of rigorous study that wizards go through, they have more time to learn fighting skills and are proficient with simple weapons.

This is the NWN description of the Epic Sorcerer.

Epic Sorcerer: The epic sorcerer is a near mythic being. But still the need for ever-greater power never ceases and the sorcerer pushes on, exploring and mastering the magical.


That doesn't sound like the description of people that have absolutely no idea what they're doing when they're using magic.

** Edited to fix a typo I spotted


Last edited by Krin on Wed, Apr 08 2015, 4:05 AM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
serbiris
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 08 2015, 3:15 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia

Krin wrote:
I don't think it's true that sorcerers are the most powerful class in the game. That title belongs to clerics, especially battle clerics, and even more especially on a server like Amia where there are so many epic items available that nullify caster spells. Freedom, Improved Evasion, and 100% Immunity to damage types are available on items in game. I haven't seen any 100% Physical Damage immunity items floating around. That coupled with the scrolls in game and the fact that Clerics now have access to Greater Sanctuary as the Haven spell makes them the most powerful class on Amia. Sorcerers are useful for one thing: damage output. That isn't very useful in PvM because you'll run out of spells every couple spawns and in 'real' PvP, the other party can easily heal themselves until the big offensive spells run out. Most sorcerers, and mages in general, have pretty bad AC. If you get close to them as a melee character, they're going to die.


I just want to point out that clerics have always had Greater Sanctuary, it being an upgraded version of the low-level cleric spell Sanctuary. Haven was introduced because Gsanc was previously used as a cover while buffing.

Furthermore, battle clerics will probably tell you how much they suck in PvP - one Disjunction undoes 90% of their buffs (or at least it used to? They may have fixed it), and it's a spell anyone with UMD can access. Also they need time to buff, when a Sorc going for the PvP just needs to hit haste and start spamming the brutality (bringing them fairly level with the other king of quickdraw PvP, the WM). The particular advantage over wizards is that they don't need to prepare differently for on-the-spot PvP or dungeoning, it's all the one list. Overall, they're still pretty even, as a powerbuilt wizard is more versatile than a powerbuilt sorc, but the sorc does have a slight edge purely in PvP, which is a pretty good measure of power.

What's funny about these threads is that people tend to show how much they see greener grass in someone else's class.

Oh, all that said: I'm not against this discussion, though I will add that as much as every class change thread I've seen has been stifled with "it's too powerful as is" (the WM one comes to mind), the issues with adding flavour are nonetheless that the additions are either so pointless that no one really cares, or they actually do make the class more powerful. The problem with modifying sorc is that people will want different things. Making something modular enough will increase the necessary work exponentially, and that's really the only way it will work. Best to just leave it to individual requests - request faerie wings or whatever as a manifestation of your faerie-sorcery, I dunno. Request a widget that lets you light small fires and plays text messages of "[Name] is shooting flames out of [his/her] arse!"

_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293


 
      
Krin
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 08 2015, 4:13 AM 



Player

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Location: California

Regarding the flexibility thing...

I've seen people RP that their sorcerer or wizard can do little things like magically light campfires, chill ale, and style hair basically at will. As outspoken as my sorcerer is about his own god-like power, I'm very iffy about RPing that he has abilities he shouldn't, so I don't RP that he can do those things. Really I'm just asking for some sort of DM ruling on whether or not sorcerers can do those things because it seems like common sense that they should be able to. Maybe not style hair, but definitely produce fire and other minor magical effects.

Could it be handled with widget requests? Yes, but I don't like the idea of requesting widgets and paying DCs to acknowledge that a sorcerer can do minor things like that.


 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 08 2015, 4:36 AM 

User avatar

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

There isn't a little slide gauge called "power" that you can check to see what it is at every single class. Hmm, the Rogues are at 57, Fighters 43, and ooh, Sorcs 99. Obviously they are the most powerful. Classes are not all "powerful" in the same way. It's sort of like the idea of that if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will seem like an idiot. A Sorcerer is good at casting certain spells a lot of times. The idea that Sorcerer makes Wizard a foolish choice is, well, foolish in itself. Try doing anything besides chucking a bunch of fireballs or Wails at something. PvP, PvM, or RP. There are certain times where the argument stands, but more often, it mistakenly conflates any change at all as applying to the most powerful aspects of a class. I.E. "Sorcs don't need Intimidate, they already have IGMS!" It's apples to 10d6 oranges.

Once again, DC requesting Bloodline flavor is nice, but it doesn't solve what is the base issue it seems: DC requests are a requirement for ANY flavor. Sorcs being so bland is 3.5's fault more than anything else, so no one is more or less to blame for wanting what reinforces the lore and playstyle. There is a balance though, as Serbiris points out, but the available options are not are nearly that black and white. There are plenty of things that don't outright make the class better at what it does great already(cast spells) that people would still care about(tricks and tidbits). It's not an issue of "oh, if it's not making them more powerful, no one will care." That is a bit insulting in a way, because it assumes that no one can play the Sorcerer class without making them godlike and moreover no one cares about the RP aspects except to increase their own power. In truth there are obviously a few players who want the class as a whole to have the advertised RP aspects without having to come out of pocket for them every single time. At the end of the day, the proverbial boogeyman sorcerer who spams timestop, IGMS, and Wail that most are convinced sits at the top of "power" isn't going to change much should he have 5/- acid resist, some boosted persuasion, and can make his Cone attacks into self-targeted AoE's. But to the people who don't already worship at the altar of DPS and do indeed feel the class deserves to have flavor by default, these things will reinforce that RP. A little goes a long way.

To the subject of "having our scripting power better applied elsewhere," to be honest that's always going to be an issue. But most of the time, our scripters/developers are working on either what needs to be done and when fortune allows, side projects of their own interest. There's always crowdsourcing and should I ever get back around to my own projects, this would be high on my lists of things to finish up.

_________________
Image
You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.


 
      
serbiris
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 08 2015, 5:38 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia

You misunderstand me - my point is that those precious few abilities which we can agree don't tip the balance of power, will almost assuredly flat-out suck. Give them a smidge of elemental resistance, sure, but what are they going to do with it? Take acid baths in public to show it off? They can get the same effect with items anyway. Persuasion? Fits (well, they have Bluff as a class skill anyway), but does anyone actually roll them and take those rolls seriously? DMs are meant to, but it still rarely seems to come up (and when it does, they have no idea what to set the DC at because the game treats skills stupidly... Chances are you'll be outpaced by a bloke who carries a +50 persuasion set anyway). Give them more skill points? Makes it easier to max out key skills, makes the class more powerful. That's my concern. Roleplay potential with sorc isn't going to come out of little things like that. The idea of modifying spell effects in unusual ways is nice (though flies in the face of P&P lore, which states that sorcs are actually bad at using metamagic), but you're still just casting a spell to kill dudes, which is what you'd be doing anyway. Sorry to argue against your examples, but I want to make the point that chances are any ability you grant that's not useful

Really, if an actually good idea of something that can be provided for all sorcs comes up, I'll be the first to bow my head and concede that you've done it. But I don't think it's going to happen. Sorcerers are just too much of a mixed bag for any sweeping changes to satisfy everyone. DI himself has a sorcerer who eats mythals (or something), Krin is Krin, my own sorc PCs might as well belong to different classes for the worlds apart that they are. But hey, maybe you will come up with something. In fact while you're at it, fix fighters - all they get is feats, and those are even more boring than sorcerer spells.

Dark Immolation wrote:
There isn't a little slide gauge called "power" that you can check to see what it is at every single class.


There is, it just doesn't matter to most people. In P&P we call it JaronK's Tier System, on NWN I guess it's a bit less formal than that, but same principles apply. The reason people look to PvP as a measure of class power is because it's the hardest thing on NWN, that you have control over the outcome for. Roleplaying is not hard. Enjoying the game is not hard. Doing well in a DM event is, well, largely situational, but since the goal is generally to enjoy it you will usually enjoy it. Granted, certain classes will have nothing to do in certain plots, which is something you can factor in if you're looking at the strengths & weaknesses of various classes. But compared to all that, PvP is not quite so laissez-faire, which is why we have a build subforum and why people spend so much time worrying about it.

_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293


 
      
Lutra
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 08 2015, 5:59 AM 



Player

Joined: 12 Feb 2008

Krin wrote:
Regarding the flexibility thing...

I've seen people RP that their sorcerer or wizard can do little things like magically light campfires, chill ale, and style hair basically at will. As outspoken as my sorcerer is about his own god-like power, I'm very iffy about RPing that he has abilities he shouldn't, so I don't RP that he can do those things. Really I'm just asking for some sort of DM ruling on whether or not sorcerers can do those things because it seems like common sense that they should be able to. Maybe not style hair, but definitely produce fire and other minor magical effects.

Could it be handled with widget requests? Yes, but I don't like the idea of requesting widgets and paying DCs to acknowledge that a sorcerer can do minor things like that.


I think it is not out of line to rp it as a PnP form.
Certain bard songs, such as the Stormsong has various aspects too, or the Sightsong even.


 
      
Grymia
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 08 2015, 6:12 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada

A lot of the things you described just now are from a singular PnP Spell: Presdigitation, a cantrip at that.


 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 08 2015, 8:22 AM 

User avatar

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

serbiris wrote:
You misunderstand me - my point is that those precious few abilities which we can agree don't tip the balance of power, will almost assuredly flat-out suck. Give them a smidge of elemental resistance, sure, but what are they going to do with it? Take acid baths in public to show it off?


Maybe it's a simple difference of opinion, but I'd say you're flat out wrong there. That's exactly what subrace DR and Skill bonuses accomplish. They're not ground-breaking perks, but they give flavor. They are things that make what you're playing feel, however small, different than Vanilla Human/Elf/Dorf. And whatever you're playing, your Sorcerer is not a Vanilla version of it. It's a specimen that is tapping into the racial and metaphysical traits of its ancestors to warp reality at will. It's the same aim as that, really. Maybe it sucks to you, but it's not insignificant to RP and making the narrative match the game. There's nothing "assuredly" about them sucking in the least.

I would advise against using my own sorcerer to demonstrate anything to generalize sorcerers, one way or another.

In regards to the changing spell shapes "flying in the face" of PnP, we've already established that 3rd Edition does an absolutely crap job at mechanically interpreting Sorcerers as advertised in both lore and spirit. The reasoning I use for suggesting they could modify their spells comes form a very well-known adage: "To a man who only has a hammer, most of the world looks like a nail." A sorcerer doesn't get many spells. What she does have she gets through intuition, will, and practice. So lets say all one particular Sorcerer has is Burning Hands. That's it. That's her first and main manifestation. Bugbear charging? Burning hands. Tree falling towards her? Burning hands. Cat stuck in a tree? ... Burning hands.

That's all she has. So she damn well learns to use that "spell" in all the ways she can. They figure out, hey, if I cup my hands together, I can make it shoot out in a stream of fire instead of a cone. Or hey, if I circle my hands overhead, I can surround myself. Or yo, if I aim at the ground, I can keep this plot of land burning for a few seconds, rather than one short burst. Or, since all this magic is is my will made manifest, I eek the fire out slowly and give myself fiery fists for a few minutes. Bruce Lee said it about as good as you can say it. While wizards are off learning a particular "kick" for every situation, a Sorc sticks to one and tries to make it work for all of them.

_________________
Image
You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.


 
      
serbiris
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 08 2015, 9:00 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia

Didn't really care to keep going on this thread having said my bit but having been called out as "wrong", I suppose I can descend to pettiness just this once.

Do those piddly little bonuses actually accomplish what you say? I don't think I've ever seen a tiefling make note of their elemental resistance, ever, and you don't need a tiny bonus to bluff/hide to tell you that your tiefling can be sneaky if you want him to. The human subraces are a mess that we wish we never walked into. The flavour of subrace has little-to-nothing to do with the actual mechanical abilities given to the class - in fact, it's usually the reason people take them without intent to RP them, such as the case with Tuigans, Chultans, Earth Genasi etc. Subraces control everything from your appearance to your character's place of birth to how you regard other PCs - that's where the flavour comes from. Roleplaying a dextrous human and a dextrous non-human isn't fundamentally different, you simply have the scores you choose. Roleplaying different varieties of elves dwarves has very little to do with subrace stats also - it has far more to do with the significant cultural differences that gave rise to these subraces in the first place (see: wood elves vs sun elves, gold dwarves vs shield dwarves - the stat differences make more difference in allowing you to optimise different classes than in the actual flavour). It's not the numbers that give subraces the flavour they have. It's the setting. What sorcerers lack is a cohesive connection to the setting - your magical ancestor is likely so distant it doesn't matter, and there's already a class for pursuing the most common one (dragons) and it's a terrible PrC for a caster sorc. They are just guys who happen to be born magical. They aren't organised or grouped in any way because their incidence is sudden and unpredictable. A wizard can build off wherever he learned his craft, which allows RP to generate with any PC who has political affiliations with that location/institution, whereas sorcs would be lucky if they have a notable sorcerer-mentor in their background. The odds are simply stacked against them - it has nothing to do with what they do or don't have mechanically. Now certainly from here a sorcerer can go places - research their ancestor anyway, develop new spells, get into politics. But the class itself isn't doing them any favours.


Dark Immolation wrote:
I would advise against using my own sorcerer to demonstrate anything to generalize sorcerers, one way or another.


Yes, which is why I used your sorcerer as an example for why you can't generalize sorcerers ever, because their very nature drives them to be different from other members of the class. This is what was accomplished, as a sorcerer. That makes it a valid example.


Dark Immolation wrote:
In regards to the changing spell shapes "flying in the face" of PnP, we've already established that 3rd Edition does an absolutely crap job at mechanically interpreting Sorcerers as advertised in both lore and spirit.


Firstly - I don't think we have actually "established" that, it's an opinion. Secondly, I acknowledge the flaws of third edition but this is the system we have to work with. You spent an unusual amount of time belabouring this point even though my remark was an aside, but if you insist. There are going to be people (like me) who agree that Sorcs could stand to be brought away from what P&P made them, and there are going to be other people who can reasonably say that they've been given enough out of the box, look at the poor shitty fighter whose only method of getting remotely more interesting is to be another class.

When you do actually come up with an idea instead of arguing about how wrong I am, I assure you, I'll be all ears.

_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293


 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 08 2015, 9:11 AM 

User avatar

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

I'm sorry if you feel there was hostility in my post; none was intended. And I even said that my feeling on your idea being "flat out wrong" was more or less a difference in opinion. To answer your question, yes, those things did accomplish it for me. Maybe it's a difference in experience as well, but I've seen plenty of people RP those little DR. Whether they do or not, at least it's there.

The reason I said it's best not to use my own sorcerer is because the "mythal eating thing" you refer to has very little to do with something specifically sorcerer based. You can't generalize any class if you're going to throw DC abilities into the mix, was the point. Does it play into his RP as a sorcerer. Yes. Does he have it soley because he is a Sorcerer? No. That would be like saying you can't generalize WM's because one requested a Hammer of Returning.

I did come up with some ideas. >_> And I'm still coming up with them, or at least trying to, while considering feedback. In any case, if I've offended you, my apologies, but I'd rather not make this a tone argument.

_________________
Image
You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.


 
      
serbiris
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 08 2015, 10:12 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia

Fair enough, we can agree to disagree about subrace bonuses. It just goes to show that I'm not actually in the target audience that would appreciate them - I'm fairly happy with the amount of flavour in the sorcerers I've played, without any additions (though one of them took some serious build-voodoo).

As to Beldor - to reiterate my point, it's not about how much the... mythal thing, has to do with sorcery, but it's how the end result produces a sorcerer that has essentially no commonalities with other prominent sorcerers, or for the sake of example a Dark Moon Monk. My argument (which has been addressed, in fairness) was that there's no one ability that could satisfy them all, so you'd need to develop options. From a Dev point of view, at least when you're dealing with a request you know the thing that gets made is definitely going to get used, even if it's only by a few people. Building add-ons for sorcs will pretty much necessitate accepting that you'll be putting in options that are going to be ignored. But that might not bother the coder in question, so moot point.

Oh - I actually didn't see your ideas because I'm not used to the flip-open things, my bad. Thoughts:

- I actually really liked the Changeling one and if it's not unfeasible (and I think it is sadly unfeasible) they should implement it, since that's what they've been saying fallen druid/shifters have been for years.
- For the metamagic ones (1-4) - it seems by the way they're presented, wizards should be able to access these feats too, rather than being something inherent to sorcerers. I mean, even if we agree that sorcerers should be more potent with metamagic based on their fluff, the existing potency of wizardly metamagic (as exemplified by their bonus feats) doesn't go away simply because we feel Sorcs get a raw deal. They are nice ideas though (and prolly nightmarishly impossible to code).
- Not sure what the point of Battle-tested is, since even if you don't want to be a spellsword but want to wield a weapon, +1 to hit will have no bearing on that with your sorc AB (and you could just take the feat anyway).
- Already spoken about skill bonuses - you can get the same from items trivially anyway - but, they did the same thing for clerics, even though it's just as useless for them.
- Claws would be fun I guess, though it doesn't really measure up to some of the others.
- Resist energy as the feat would be alright if you didn't have to give up something good to get it, for the sole benefit of being able to traverse the elements without having to lie about the ring of elemental immunity under your glove.

"Sheer Will" - or "Force of Personality" as it was known in 3.5, was refused? That one's a surprise, because it's not OP /and/ it answers the "why can't we bull our way through mental effects instead of always reasoning them out" problem. This would be a really nice thing to have, even though I've never seen anyone RP making a will save as anything more than bulling straight through the effect anyway.

The mana pool is outright broken, however. Unless you reduced the total pool to significantly less than the combined total of slots*level, it blows wizards right out of the water (not to mention turning 1-Fishing into a national sport). Now, I'm not a proponent of the Vancian magic system, I think it's stupid and I would take a points system any day. I loved Psionics, it was really well balanced. But that's the thing - it was balanced for power pools. 9 1st level spells will never equal 1 9th level spell. You can't simply translate Vancian into points.

_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293


 
      
Magiros
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 08 2015, 16:02 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 28 Nov 2006

Personally, when I want to add flavor to my character. I choose another class or feats and skills that demonstrate that. For example: My main has done extensive arcane research work upon forms of magic, spells, developing spells and deciphering spells.. Thus I chose Feats: Skill Focus Spellcraft, Epic Skill: Focus Spellcraft. Sure, mechanically I would not need them as my wizard has maxed out spellcraft already, had I wanted to make powerbuild, I would not have chosen those feats. But they give flavor to my character as via her background. Through this roleplay I ended up requesting a custom spell, for flavor and mechanical benefit. To show off her hard work.

While I agree that sorcerer's get very little skills points, I do see it fitting. They are not especially doing work to research their fundamental competences, instead it comes naturally. The boon of "working out" is finding new spells that they can manifest. If I want some skills for my sorcerer, then I would place ability points to Int. Sure, it might not make my toon the most mechanicaly powerful, but it would give flavor. I as well see that sorcerers have extremely large variety of demonstrating their spell casting, you can add flavor of roleplay there. Demonstrate their connection to the Weave, which is stronger and natural than wizards for example. Perhaps their casting style could manifest in a form of custom feat even?

Epic Sorcerer's, I won't argue they are fools or anything in that like. But the fact is that the class is not intended to be a skillful, if you want your character to have skills, choose a class that gives you that or take more INT. "Epic Sorcerer: The epic sorcerer is a near mythic being. But still the need for ever-greater power never ceases and the sorcerer pushes on, exploring and mastering the magical". While epic sorcerers are a force to be reckoned with, their understanding of the Weave, lore, arcane does not lie in formulas, theories and such.. Instead, their understanding is more natural, as if feeling something is wrong or right, understanding the how it works, but tend not to bother to conceptualize their understanding. Why should they need to either? To a sorcerer, the Weave is natural, it lives with them. While mastering their magic, I would say they push to realize their potential, not crafting arcane like wizards. Wizards work results in their superior skills and feats. Wizards try to conceptualize the Weave because they do not understand it, defining it and making theories. Personally to me a sorcerer with high Charisma would not bother to demonstrate their superior understanding of concepts of the Weave, my sorcerer is part of the Weave unlike those other non-sorcerers. Kind of "I am the Weave, I don't need to conceptualize it."

If you play a wizard in D&D, you will be spending a lot of day writing down those spells to your spellbooks. On top of that, each spellbook has a limit how many spells it can have and not all spell scrolls area readily available at local mage store. Thus Sorcerer has advantage here.. They don't need to carry a spellbook, their spells are accessible to them all the time.. They only need to rest. Wizard needs to prepare all spells before going to bed to have them for tomorrow. Those prepared spells can't be changed, like a sorcerer can freely jump between spells at will. As I played D&D sorcerer, I started increasing her Int in order to have that knowledge Arcana. Even then, I was doing cross-class skill taking.

If you want to have flavor, I don't think extra mechanical perks for class does that, instead how you demonstrate the background, their work and their connection to the Weave.

_________________
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm


 
      
Guardian
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 08 2015, 19:10 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Location: The Sky Above The Rain.

Just make sure to differ the most powerful class for PvP and PvE - saying the most powerful class is battle priest MAY be true (I am not saying it is, personally) for PvE, but it's definately a zinger in case of PvP.

Eddie is / was a sorcerer. The class is great as it is. I really do not feel like it needs any further attention -

Magiros wrote:
If you want to have flavor, I don't think extra mechanical perks for class does that, instead how you demonstrate the background, their work and their connection to the Weave.



- exactly right. Flavour is best served by players, not mechanics.

_________________
Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
=========
Obsidian (inactive)


 
      
Krin
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 08 2015, 23:30 PM 



Player

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Location: California

@Magiros and Guardian

I can see where you're both coming from, but I'm not suggesting huge mechanical perks or anything outside of the sorcerer lore. Sorcerers get no bonus feats, very little skill points, and the way they're set up mechanically flies in the face of what the lore says about them. I don't think buffs to Persuade, Intimidate, or bonus metamagic feats are game changers that would make the class more powerful. Even adding the CHA mod to Will saves wouldn't be a big deal and it does make sense that people who use force of will to shape reality would get a buff to willpower.

As it is, sorcerers don't have the feats/skill points to devote to flavor the way other classes do. I think they're unreasonably lacking in that way, so I'm suggesting that something be done to give them more flavor. I'm not concerned with how powerful they are mechanically. The class just needs some spice tossed in to set it apart and put emphasis on the lore behind it.


 
      
Casvenx
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 09 2015, 0:38 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 11 Feb 2013
Location: Badlands of 'Murika

Hmm, I don't see skill point amounts/level as being a reflection of their (class) focal point studies, with the exception of rogue. The opposite in fact. The classes that receive few points pursue their studies in other areas... Fighters get combat bonus feats to show their physical practice, wizards get magic oriented bonus feats to show their studies, and both get the lowest skill points of any class. The middle ground gets 4/level, which notably contains the barbarian, which also gains their abilities naturally rather then through dedicated practice. Bards, those jack-of-all-trades, are in the high end, with rogues throwing the whole comparison off because their mass of skills is basically the focus of their class. It makes the most sense to me that sorcerers, not having dedicated studies taking up their time, would have a broader skill base... but only 4/level. If spellcraft weren't the requirements for epic spells I wouldn't give them access to spellcraft either (and take away that stupid bonus vs spells spellcraft gives while we're at it, heh).

I don't really see skills getting that much of a makeover though, and since the social skills (that sorcerers should have access to, IMO) are basically ignored here, I'd just RP that they were good at whichever of those were relevant to the character. Skill points being held over from level to level is a much larger issue with the skills, and lets people master any skill with just a class level or two in another class. Skills are a mess in this game. Lets not even mention people swapping out skill gear on the fly when a roll comes up.

In a perfect system sorcerers would have a separate spell list, perhaps being either controlled or added to by their bloodline. Instead of just being the lazyman's wizard, they would have a list of spells that contributed to flavor, including some normally divine spells, putting them somewhere between the two caster types (sort of where the bard spell list unaccountably sits). And they certainly wouldn't have access (without a custom request at least) to any of the named wizard spells.

_________________
Image


 
      
Magiros
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 09 2015, 7:36 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 28 Nov 2006

Have to say that I personally disagree. There is nothing that would warrant sorcs more skills or feats. And were they accessing bonus feats and having higher skills amounts, I would simply remake my wizzie into a sorc. That is because the class has more spells per day naturally. Sorcs by very nature are not skillful nor featy class. If you want either one, multiclass. Main skills mechanically are spellcraft, concenration and lore, in my opinion. The fact is that if we increase skill amounts or feats, then we must consider the class combinations they can suddenly afford and skill dumping. Sorcs as a class is fine, if you want skillful character, then go rogue/bard or wizard. If you want feats, multiclass.

If you want flavor, bring it by roleplay. Mechanical perks have little to do with that. Sure they can be used to demonstrate they are good at something, but you cant have it all in one class. Respectfully, I disagree with your argumentation and don't see any reason to make the class better than it is. Soecerers have spontaneous casting, means they dont need to do the arduous preparations of spells, they can toss spells from their collection as many as times as they want and they received all these powers faster than a wizard would in D&D. While we cant demonstrate that by mechanics, I do think there is plenty of flavor with sorcerer class if taken time to build such. And I'm not saying you guys haven't, just that the class represents well enough what it is meant to be mechanically, rest can be brought via roleplay.

_________________
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm


 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 09 2015, 8:42 AM 

User avatar

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Disagree as you may, I guess that's all I can take from that. But you can't expect sorcerers to kneecap themselves to gain flavor that you would otherwise encourage them to have. I completely fail to see how anyone can get any of the particular flavor represented through bloodlines, heritage, and paradigms from the, well, nothing that is offered by the NWN base class towards it. Spontaneous casting yes. But playing a fae-blooded sorcerer vs a celestial-blooded? A dragon-blooded vs a fiendish? There's nothing there to add to that, at all.

Mechanical perks adding to roleplay is an old standby, but you're right, it's not guaranteed. Some druids RP their Trackless Step and Resit Nature's Lure, some don't. A lot of Elves roleplay their Keen Senses, some don't. What I and some others I imagine are banking on is that it is that at least having them there, small as they may be, encourages people to roleplay those things. The fact is, you can go from level 1 to level 30 of a sorc and never encounter anything in the gamemplay that tells you you're sired from something out of the norm, physically, supernaturally, or metaphysically. You'd be surprised how much thought some sorc players give into it vs others who are completely unaware because nothing in the game (default) speaks to that lore. Believe it or not, we're not all loremonkeys at this point; but at least the people who play Rogue, Druid, Ranger, Fighter, Cleric, basically all of the base classes can get the idea of "Oh, so this is what it's about" from simply playing. We can trumpet DC requests until the cows come home, it doesn't change that fact.

Lastly, we can all it "power" all we want, but I say again, people already feeling Sorc as the top dog of whatever wouldn't notice a difference. The people who would however are the people playing the class who either newly realize the roleplay there is to be had there or who already do it, but now have a slight nod to that RP. I can understand the counterpoints against adding things like that, but not when they're used together. Sorcs are too powerful + little bonus feats are negligible = negligible little feats makes sorcs too powerful. Every change changes something, like me being able to boost my Persuade 3 pips at a time through job system, but our balance is not so precariously balanced where a few bells and whistles make sorcerers any more our overlords than they were before. If you're beaten by a dragonblooded sorc, his +10 Intimidate, 5/- Fire and +2 damage to unarmed attacks probably had very little to do with it. Nor does it make him clear spawns any faster than you. What it does is add to the RP that he would otherwise had to sacrifice 10 skill points and 2 feats to emulate.

Re: Wizards learning the sorc "metamagics." Oh they totally could I imagine, just like there's nothing theoretically stopping a Wizard from learning how to cast Healing Circle. The expectation is simply that they don't, or the majority don't, to the point where it's not a readily available option for them. The thinking for me at least is that a sorcerer stumbles upon these things by necessity and creativity. It would never dawn on most Wizards to develop these tricks because when met with the situation, they'd first attempt to find an already studied spell. I.E. If I'm a Wizard and I need a personal AoE fire spell, my first thought is to spend a day learning Fireburst--rather than play with my Burning Hands for two weeks, burn myself a few times through trial and error, and learn Spell Sweep.

_________________
Image
You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.


 
      
Mercedes
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 09 2015, 16:29 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 14 Dec 2011

My own main is a Sorcerer and the background has largely driven her roleplay in a background sort of way. Also note that a highly diluted dragon blood may not give you any dragon powers, but only unlock your magical potential. Those that specifically seek to bring out their heritage gain mechanics in the way of RDD. Others have gone on to request other abilities from fluff other than what is currently supported. We can't support every possibility through a menu of options, I feel. Like many sorcerers, I think I may be the only one on the server pursuing the thing that I am. It's all very individualized and I don't think a lot of characters would express these things the same way.


 
      
Magiros
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 09 2015, 16:35 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 28 Nov 2006

True that they add very little in PvP or PvE encounters and I too doubt that those are the reasons why I would get beaten by a sorcerer. But I do still believe that the flavor wanted could be brought by DC requests or roleplaying. I don't really see what those trivial mechanical perks would give to give flavor. Lets have a look at sorcerer class from Players Handbook 3.5 p. 51.

Quote:
Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice. They have no books, no mentors, no theories—just raw power that they direct at will. Some sorcerers claim that the blood of dragons courses through their veins. That claim may even be true in some cases—it is common knowledge that certain powerful dragons can take humanoid form and even have humanoid lovers, and it’s difficult to prove that a given sorcerer does not have a dragon ancestor. It’s true that sorcerers often have striking good looks, usually with a touch of the exotic that hints at an unusual heritage. Others hold that the claim is either an unsubstantiated boast on the part of certain sorcerers or envious gossip on the part of those who lack the sorcerer’s gift.


The fact is that a sorcerer is just your average human/elf/dwarf/orc or whatever race you pick. The amount of ancestors heritage is minimal, and you don't actually even need to have ancestors to get sorcerous traits. For example: In societies where magic is highly used, the amount of sorcerers increase as well. It is a common misconception that there is a must be outsider/dragonic/feyish heritage, in my opinion. Those heritages are used to give flavor, they are not a must and sorcerer's usually would not even know about the heritage in their family lines. In many places, sorcerers are considered dangerous because of their "untrained" approach to magic. At least there has been such IC theories mentioned in some D&D books, can't remember the source now but if asked I can look around for them.

P. 52

Quote:
Characteristics: Sorcerers cast spells through innate power rather than through careful training and study. Their magic is intuitive rather than logical. Sorcerers know fewer spells than wizards do and acquire powerful spells more slowly than wizards, but they can cast spells more often and have no need to select and prepare their spells ahead of time. Sorcerers do not specialize in certain schools of magic the way wizards sometimes do.


Intuitive, which is based on feelings, not facts or theories. They don't need to be told how it is done, somehow they just understand how it is done innately. Oh and noticed that I was actually wrong about the quicker access to powerful spells! My bad there!

What comes to healing magic, it is generally viewed to go under the divine magic. I actually did plan to develop healing spells for my character in the start, but after discussing with few DM's, it was expressed that for an arcane based caster developing healing spell would -very- difficult and unheard of. The fact is that healing goes under the domain of deities, it would seem. Those healing spells that arcane based casters have are necromancy based like vampire touch, which steals lifeforce, not healing per say. And I do agree that many of the spells that are split for only arcane casters and divine caster could both be casted either way, it is a bit silly.. But it is how it is with D&D.

However, after more consideration of the suggested idea, it would be interesting to see if there could be added a pre-made widgets that demonstrate certain bloodlines. These widget could be requested after demonstrating proper RP, like bard songs, SD jumps, fly widget.

Edit: Typooos.

_________________
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm


 
      
Kraniumbrud
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 09 2015, 16:53 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark

this is just silly to me, I dont see how sorc need more love than fighters, barbarians, wizards hell, wizards are basically sorcs with a few more spell choises.

Baseclasses are just that base, defining your char is up to you, and that can easily be done with sorcs , as you can focus your char on certain spell types to represent who your char is.

what they dont need is buffs (feats and such) however, they are rather well balanced compared to other casters.
the rest can be gained through rp, dc requests such as custom spells.

as for them being treated like "magical creatures" they are typically so dilute in blood that to call them magical creatures is just..meh, and besides they have plenty of magical abilities, its called thier spells.

they are thought off as wizards because people rp them as wizards, rp them as you want, define your char through rp.

_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker


 
      
The Great Equalizer
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 09 2015, 19:39 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada

There are a number of the classes that could do with adding some fun unique (non-balance breaking) aspects to them, Sorc is a good, easy enough to play class however with that said in almost any situation because of lack of differentiating mechanics Sorc just feels like (and is often treated like) a "combat" wizard more than anything, which is especially rough for the more RP heavy aspects of the class (especially when Sorcs so often get less credit as knowledgable casters and so not brought in nearly as often for things like consulting) and being a CHA primary stat class (and generally even MORE focused on that than say Paladin or Bard) it does mean that they get a bit of a rough time since every other stat gives better secondary bonuses for investing in it.


Sorc isn't bad to play, just not nearly as interesting as it could (and in my own opinion should) be.


 
      
The Great Equalizer
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 09 2015, 19:54 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada

Magiros wrote:
What comes to healing magic, it is generally viewed to go under the divine magic. I actually did plan to develop healing spells for my character in the start, but after discussing with few DM's, it was expressed that for an arcane based caster developing healing spell would -very- difficult and unheard of. The fact is that healing goes under the domain of deities, it would seem. Those healing spells that arcane based casters have are necromancy based like vampire touch, which steals lifeforce, not healing per say. And I do agree that many of the spells that are split for only arcane casters and divine caster could both be casted either way, it is a bit silly.. But it is how it is with D&D.


Just taking a minute to address this since I noticed it. Objectively speaking there is nothing preventing a mage from crafting purely healing magic as it is dependent on positive energy not on a deity, as is should be since both arcane and divine magic both use the weave, divine magic just uses the deity as a medium to access the weave (at a basic level).

Also even just looking at the 3.5 PHB p.311

positive energy:
A white, luminous energy that originates on the
Positive Material Plane. In general, positive energy heals the living
and hurts undead creatures.


Edit: Arcane casters not being able to cast healing is purely by mechanics as one of the ways to restrict mages power level, also evident in why it clashes with lore so often and has issues in its reasoning due to things like bards. It is mechanics dictating lore which is bad but serves a purpose in balancing the usefulness of healing classes, due to amia not reflecting those same balance issue there is little reason to continue to support that bit of mechanical anti-lore.


Last edited by The Great Equalizer on Wed, Apr 15 2015, 8:10 AM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
davis114
 
PostPosted: Thu, Apr 09 2015, 19:54 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 16 Dec 2007

This would be really, really cool to actually discuss and flesh out. Sorcerers have so much more to offer than what they are now. I'm not saying RP can't flesh out a sorcererous character. My main for a long time was a sorcerer, and I did a crazy amount to flesh out his abilities. But the limitations of NWN really did start to bug me, the deeper I went into what a sorcerer can actually do.

For instance, a wizard can only remember a certain number of spells, because their mind can only hold that specific number. So when you use a PnP spell, you give up a spell slot in your mind specifically for that spell. I did that for a while with my sorcerer, giving up a certain spell for an actual PnP spell I thought he would have access to by that time in his development. (Of course, I asked permission of those around me when it was used.)

But why would that be the case? Wouldn't the sorcerer easily be able to will both spells into existence, instead of simply forgetting one? Would h/she really forget a basic instinctual reaction to the Weave?

I'm not saying buffing sorcerers is a good idea. But there's a ton that can be done to add flavor to the class, and make it that much more interesting to play. Sure, you can fluff them out through DC requests and role playing IG. I just think there can be neat things added to the class that don't necessarily add to its strength, but add to its fun. Hell, some of them can even make the sorcerer weaker, by not having access to as many spells based on the bloodline chosen, or some such.

Just saying. I think getting passed the objection of "Nope, sorcerers are too strong as it is." needs to happen. This doesn't need to be a buff, and an outcry of overpowered from everyone. It's a legitimate idea to make a rather bland class much more interesting, and maybe even much more relevant to rp happenings with the ability to affect the Weave in more subtle ways. Sounds like it could be a pretty fun conversation to have.

_________________
Image

MoshingChris wrote:
Dude makes like a drunk even when he's sober.


 
      
Krin
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 10 2015, 20:15 PM 



Player

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Location: California

The way D&D handles magic in general is pretty weird. Why would a wizard forget how to cast a minor spell after casting it a few times that same day?

The way I've always justified wizards and spell preparation is basically.. components. They need components for spells and can only prepare and carry so many.

At the same time.. Why would a sorcerer need components at all?

Why would a bard be able to cast healing magic, but not a sorcerer or a wizard?

It's all crazy.

I think saying that sorcerers are just the average human/elf/halfling/whatever is kind of like saying that a paladin is just the average fighter that can cast a few spells. There is a lot of lore and depth to sorcerers that is normally never touched because the class is mechanically treated like a gutted wizard with spontaneous casting. It isn't something that should be handled through requests because it's an issue with every sorcerer from level 1 through 30.

Sorcerers and wizards are not the same and sorcerers aren't average people. I'd argue that a level 5 sorcerer is still more 'connected' to magic than a level 30 wizard is. That connection doesn't need to be translated into more mechanical power, but that doesn't mean it should be set aside and ignored by the leveling process and the RP surrounding the class.

I understand that a lot of the minor tricks like producing fire to light the stove, chilling drinks, and having magic dance on their fingers can be handled with Prestidigitation, which is cantrip that allows little tricks like those to be performed for one hour after casting.

But why should a sorcerer, a person with a deep and powerful connection to magic, need to cast a named Wizard spell to do those things?

I'm just trying to get some depth injected into the class, mechanically and in RP.

EDIT:

Sorcerer Bloodlines

I just remembered this page I found a long while back. I understand that it's outside of 3.5 D&D, but there are a lot of pretty great ideas there for sorcerer bloodlines. It doesn't have to be a dragon or a fey. It doesn't have to be anything. That makes it hard to please everyone with mechanical changes to the class, but I'd say that some depth is better than none.


 
      
Casvenx
 
PostPosted: Fri, Apr 10 2015, 21:47 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 11 Feb 2013
Location: Badlands of 'Murika

Krin wrote:
The way D&D handles magic in general is pretty weird. Why would a wizard forget how to cast a minor spell after casting it a few times that same day?


It's not just learning how to cast the spell, it's the mental capacity to store the energy of the spell, ready and waiting for you to unleash it. It's how the Vancian magic system works... and probably a hold over in the D&D system from the 70's game. You'll probably notice the systems that govern magic in games have advanced and changed the most over the years, the Vancian system is the easiest (and therefore possibly most lacking).

This is what I was trying to say. A fireball, is a fireball. You can use it to light a camp fire... but it would be the same spell, not a toned down one. The spell is itself, regardless of the caster. That's just how the system of magic we use works.

The sorcerer class was the old system trying to adapt to the new ones, and they really don't play that well together. That's some of the dissonance you're seeing I think. It really doesn't make sense for sorcerers to work using the Vancian system.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VancianMagic (<-- also, a great resource for character building)

Culled from the 2nd Ed. Players Handbook:
WIZARD SPELLS
Wizard spells range from spells of simple utility to great and powerful magics. The
wizard spell group has no single theme or purpose. The vast majority of wizard spells
were created by ancient wizards for many different purposes. Some are to serve the
common man in his everyday needs. Others provide adventurers with the might and
firepower they need to survive. Some are relatively simple and safe to use (as safe as
magic can be); others are complicated, filled with hazards and snares for the rash and
unwary. Perhaps the greatest of all wizard spells is the powerful and tricky wish. It
represents the epitome of spell-casting--causing things to happen simply because the
wizard desires it to be so. But it is a long and difficult task to attain the mastery needed to
learn this spell.
Although some characters can use spells, the workings of magic are dimly understood
at best. There are many theories about where the power comes from. The most commonly
accepted idea is that the mysterious combination of words, gestures, and materials that
make up a spell somehow taps an extradimensional source of energy that in turn causes
the desired effect. Somehow the components of the spells--those words, gestures and
materials--route this energy to a specific and desired result. Fortunately, how this happens
is not very important to the majority of wizards. It is enough to know that "when you do
this, that happens."
Casting a wizard spell is a very complicated ordeal. The process of learning the correct
procedure to cast a spell is difficult and taxing to the mind. Thus, a wizard must check to
see if he learns each new spell (according to his Intelligence--see Table 4). Furthermore,
there is a limit to just how much of this strangeness--illogical mathematics, alchemical
chemistry, structuralist linguistics--a wizard's mind can comprehend, and so he must live
with a limit to the number of spells he can know.
As the wizard learns spells, he records their arcane notes into his spell books. Without
spell books, a wizard cannot memorize new spells. Within them are all his instructions
or memorizing and casting all the spells he knows. As the wizard successfully learns a
new spell, he carefully enters its formula into his spell books. A wizard can never have a
spell in his books that he does not know, because if he doesn't understand it, he cannot
write the formula. Likewise, he cannot enter a spell into his books that is higher in level
than he can cast. If he finds an ancient tome with spells of higher power, he must simply
wait until he advances to a level at which he can use them.
The exact shape and size of a character's spellbooks is a detail your DM will provide.
They may be thick tomes of carefully inked parchment, crackling scrolls in bulky cases,
or even weighty clay tablets. They are almost never convenient to carry around. Their
exact form depends on the type and setting of the campaign world your DM has created.
Ultimately, it is the memorization that is important. To draw on magical energy, the
wizard must shape specific mental patterns in his mind. He uses his spell books to force
his mind through mental exercises, preparing it to hold the final, twisted patterns. These
patterns are very complicated and alien to normal thought, so they don't register in the
mind as normal learning. To shape these patterns, the wizard must spend time
memorizing the spell, twisting his thoughts and recasting the energy patterns each time to
account for subtle changes--planetary motions, seasons, time of day, and more.
Once a wizard memorizes a spell, it remains in his memory (as potential energy) until
he uses the prescribed components to trigger the release of the energy patterns. The
mental patterns apparently release the energy while the components shape and guide it.
Upon casting, the energy of the spell is spent, wiped clean from the wizard's mind. The
mental patterns are lost until the wizard studies and memorizes that spell again.
The number of spells a wizard can memorize is given by his level (see Table 21); he
can memorize the same spell more than once, but each memorization counts as one spell
toward his daily memorization limit. Part of a wizard's intelligence can be seen in the
careful selection of spells he has memorized.
Memorization is not a thing that happens immediately. The wizard must have a clear
head gained from a restful night's sleep and then has to spend time studying his spell
books. The amount of study time needed is 10 minutes per level of the spell being
memorized. Thus, a 9th-level spell (the most powerful) would require 90 minutes of
careful study. Clearly, high-level spellcasters do not lightly change their memorized
spells.
Spells remain memorized until they are cast or wiped from the character's mind by a
spell or magical item. A wizard cannot choose to forget a memorized spell to replace it
with another one. He can, however, cast a spell just to cleanse his mind for another spell.
(The DM must make sure that the wizard does not get experience for this.)

_________________
Image


 
      
Krin
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 13 2015, 18:59 PM 



Player

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Location: California

That makes more sense. I feel like I just went to Hogwarts and learned how to wizard. It really doesn't make a lot of sense for sorcerers to use that system, so I'm glad a few good ideas have come out of this thread so far.


 
      
kalcibone
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 13 2015, 19:11 PM 



Player

Joined: 18 Feb 2013

I hope that if things get added to sorc for fluff then other classes get fair treatment.


 
      
Krin
 
PostPosted: Mon, Apr 13 2015, 22:32 PM 



Player

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Location: California

kalcibone wrote:
I hope that if things get added to sorc for fluff then other classes get fair treatment.


Totally agree. :) I think more fluff is good all around. I'm focused on sorc because I've been playing one for years and the limitations of the mechanics are kind of..blah. I think sorc is one of the only classes that doesn't mechanically give a good representation of the lore behind the class.


 
      
Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 14 2015, 2:41 AM 

User avatar

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Mercedes wrote:
My own main is a Sorcerer and the background has largely driven her roleplay in a background sort of way. Also note that a highly diluted dragon blood may not give you any dragon powers, but only unlock your magical potential. Those that specifically seek to bring out their heritage gain mechanics in the way of RDD. Others have gone on to request other abilities from fluff other than what is currently supported. We can't support every possibility through a menu of options, I feel. Like many sorcerers, I think I may be the only one on the server pursuing the thing that I am. It's all very individualized and I don't think a lot of characters would express these things the same way.


Ah, I'm not sure how I missed this first time through. All the options and individualization is exactly why I would suggest a modular system. It would indeed be hard to offer every particular option on its own and even then, you'd have people asking to play one bloodline as another. Instead, we could offer a group of non-specific bonuses and in a potluck sort of deal. I'll use what I suggested for example:

Quote:
Red Dragon: Resist Energy: Fire, Claws, Imperious
Faerie: Animal Magnetism, Changeling, Allure
War Shaman: Battle-Tested: Spear, Weapon Channel, Arcane Defense: Evocation
Artistic Genius: Spell Sweep, Ricochet, Channel Spell
3rd-born Jotun Queen of Brogendenstein: Resist Energy: Cold, Battle Tested: Club, Resist Energy: Fire


In such a way, we aren't telling any player what their Bloodline is, rather we are allowing them to build it to their own discretion. With enough little options, you can reasonably reproduce a slew of different "bloodlines." Even so, the options wouldn't demand that one bloodline look a certain way. Don't feel your Red Dragon sorcerer would manifest claws? Cool, exchange it, any, or all other feat for something else that fits their RP.

kalcibone wrote:
I hope that if things get added to sorc for fluff then other classes get fair treatment.


Don't worry. Things... things are happening. Or at least are trying their damnedest to happen.

_________________
Image
You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.


 
      
Magiros
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 14 2015, 8:31 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 28 Nov 2006

And not all sorcerers have an unusual bloodline, some just might been surrounded by magic during their mothers carrying them and this way of manifesting sorcerous powers. And why spells need components is because of Mystra made the rules so. Verbal, somatic and material components are keys to unlock the arcane energy from the Weave. Without these keys, you wont be casting spells, however, there are feats that lets you ignore some of the components such as: Eschew Materials, Still Spell and Silent Spells. This system is because lore-wise Mystra made it so, partly to protect mortals from the raw forms of magic and partly to safeguard the Weave.

What comes to the healing magic, while we can debate that everything is possible. Even my character becoming a god, the fact remains that it is extremely unlikely and near impossible. For arcane caster to cast healing magic is unheard of. So which means either A) no one has bothered to learn such or pursue such, B) No one has been successful in such aspirations so far. While, I do agree that it is possible, the fact is that it is up to the DM's if they start to allow arcane based casters the access to healing magic. The explanation that was given to me was that while it is possible in theoretical level, it is unheard of. As maintaining correct levels of positive energy for arcane caster for purpose of healing is extremely difficult, they might more likely end up exploding the people with positive energy they are trying to heal. Therefore divine based casters have the advantage that beings greater than them do this adjusting for them.

Edit:
So, why healing magic is only in the realm of divine casters might be that Mystra has placed a restriction upon the Weave that it is only accessible by the deities. We are mortals, would not know any better, while I encourage any and all of you to pursue this IG as it would be very interesting research roleplay, the fact remains that mages are not treated to have access to spells with healing description or conjuration sub-school healing. And while, I might sound like am against sorcerers receiving fluffs, I partly amd for it and partly against it. In my opinion, and it is purely just an opinion, you can bring the fluff through roleplay. Though, I understand your annoyance with the class, which was that I made my currenct wizard, wizard. There was a lack of skills points for me to demonstrate the characters skills through sorcerer class.

Edit Edit:
And about the bloodline, basically, a sorcerers only bloodline might be that their family has produced wizards and casters for some time. Or that her very parents were very skilled in the arcane and worked closely with it, thus for their child it became part of their very nature to be connected to the Arcane. In some sense, others theorize that this is natural evolution happening in high arcane societies, others see sorcerers as volatile and lacking understanding and discipline to wield the arcane.

Edit:
Typooos! :P

_________________
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm


 
      
Magiros
 
PostPosted: Tue, Apr 14 2015, 8:57 AM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 28 Nov 2006

Just might make a new post by now.

About the bloodlines you were speaking of, do check Unearthed Arcana, p 19-31. It speaks upon the bloodlines there and what benefits and negatives they have. And it could give you interesting ideas to pursue with your character or to have as backgrounds.

Edit: Alright, sorry about the edits.. But this topic is interesting discussion and I decided to do some research. Placed them on expendable quotes so those interested can read. :)

Complete Mage on Sorcerers p. 6
show
A rapidly growing number of individuals, however, master arcane practices that ignore the act of spell preparation. These characters instead focus their talent in learning a narrow range of spells, comprising a limited scope of effects. Instead of spending long hours poring over spellbooks, these casters need mere minutes each day to ready their magical potential. One can't help wondering if this represents merely a passing fad or an evolutionary "sea change" in arcane magic as a whole


Complete Mage on Components p. 6
show
But why so many components? Although arcanists have historically claimed that these incantations and magic powders are akin to keys—necessary to unlock the final effect of a spell—another, new theory has begun to gain ground among younger researchers. These energetic sages assert that components aren't keys, but rather locks—suggesting that even the most learned of arcanists don't fully control their own powers, and that components are necessary instruments to keep the spells in check. Whether these locks were placed by the deities themselves or are simply such an old convention that no one today questions their utility is anyone's guess.


Complete Mage on Arcane vs. Divine magic p. 6
show
All spells share the characteristics discussed earlier, but all spells aren't alike. To the layperson, there's not much difference between the spells wielded by a wizard and those cast by a cleric. To the student of magic, however, profound differences abound. Divine spellcasters draw their magical power through a specific source that serves as both a conduit and a filter. As the name suggests, the source has a divine nature, whether a deity, a whole pantheon of gods, or merely a powerful cause or ideal. Regardless of the actual source, divine magic is intensely personal and comes to the user through devotion to a concept such as law, war, or truth, or to some aspect of the universe, such as nature. Put simply, to a divine spellcaster magic is a matter of faith, not learning. Interestingly, the source of the magic seems to have little or no impact on the resulting effect. The protection from evil spell cast by a cleric functions identically to that cast by a sorcerer, even though each caster would claim that his spell results from a different power. This isn't to say that arcane and divine magic have no differences, but rather that the differences appear in flavor instead of effect. The mystical gestures required by divine spells tend to be less expansive and complicated than those of their arcane counterparts, but no compelling theory explains why. Those who hold to the "component as lock" theory (mentioned above) suggest that divine casters need fewer innate restrictions on their spells, since a higher power has already entrusted them with the effect. For a divine spellcaster, preparing a spell is mostly a matter of the spirit. The spellcaster prays or meditates, entreating the divine source to provide power for the spell. Arcane spellcasters, on the other hand, see preparing a spell as an intellectual exercise. The arcane spellcaster ponders the spell's intricacies and builds it within his or her mind, piece by piece. Divine casters must also obey certain strictures on their use of magic, varying from limited access to spell preparation (typically to a particular time of day associated with the source) to outright restrictions (such as the inability to use spells opposed to their alignment). Rare is the divine spellcaster who doesn't have to deal with at least one quirk that an arcane caster might find quaint or even outright annoying. Curiously, one arcane caster—the wu jen—shares a similar stricture in the form of taboos. This similarity suggests that the origins of the wu jen's magical talents might lie closer to the province of the divine than commonly accepted. Despite the different methods arcane and divine casters use to prepare and cast their spells, it's worth remembering that both groups ultimately tap the same source of magical power. Once a spell has been cast, it's effectively impossible to tell whether it is arcane or divine. If an observer actually witnesses the casting, the spell's components might give a clue to the spell's nature; for example, divine spells typically employ a holy symbol as a focus for the spell. Otherwise, nothing distinguishes an arcane spell effect from a divine spell effect.


Players Handbook 3.5 on Conjuration Healing Sub-school p. 173
show
Healing: Certain divine conjurations heal creatures or even
bring them back to life. These include cure spells.


Players Handbook 3.5 on Arcane magic p. 177
show
Wizards, sorcerers, and bards cast arcane spells, which involve the direct manipulation of mystic energies. These manipulations require natural talent (in the case of sorcerers), long study (in the case of wizards), or both (in the case of bards). Compared to divine spells, arcane spells are more likely to produce dramatic results, such as flight, explosions, or transformations.


Players Handbook 3.5 on Divine magic p. 179
show
Clerics, druids, experienced paladins, and experienced rangers can cast divine spells. Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces. The divine force of nature powers druid and ranger spells. The divine forces of law and good power paladin spells. Divine spells tend to focus on healing and protection and are less flashy, destructive, and disruptive than arcane spells.


DM Handbook 3.5 II on Wizards/Sorcerers healing magic p. 35
show
Wizards and sorcerers should not cast healing spells, but they should have the best offensive spells. If the spell is flashy or dramatic, it should probably be a wizard/sorcerer spell.

_________________
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 15 2015, 15:41 PM 

User avatar

Player

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

Quote:
At the same time.. Why would a sorcerer need components at all?

I was ready to quote this post and go "They don't, they totally get Eschew Materials for free at level 1" but then I went and looked and that's a Pathfinder thing, not a 3.5 thing. Can we just change to Pathfinder now? :D

_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham


 
      
Yossarin
 
PostPosted: Wed, Apr 15 2015, 16:27 PM 



Player

Joined: 23 Jan 2006

:idea:


 
      
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 69 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group