With the major server plot finally finished, I thought it'd be a good time for folks to (CONSTRUCTIVELY) say what they would like to see more of on the server. This is not restricted to DM requests and further plots, but players as well. My two cents:

- Involvement of the Gods: As a DM I was fairly staunchly against involving divine powers in any way that wasn't completely peripheral, as it is easy to completely break immersion with godly miracles. That being said, as a player I've seen religion on the server take a major backslide into oblivion, and for good reason, as it seems the Gods completely ignore even their most righteous Amian followers. I'd like to see a greater emphasis placed on religion/the gods, as I think it's one of the more interesting facets of the Forgotten Realms, and tends to easily generate role play among the player base that does not require direct DM oversight. A good example of this would be Mana/Ego's heresy plots.

- "Small scale" plots: While little off the cuff dungeon crawls and mysteries are fun, I think where small scale plots really shine is when it is geared towards a small number of characters and focuses on challenging and developing them as individuals and as a group. These are easy to control and can be a great deal of fun for those involved, leading to really intimate character changes and some great storytelling.

More thoughts!

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As a DM, I'll happily keep an eye on this thread. Please keep it civil, mind! No reason why it should get out of hand, especially when the staff is as actively watching and taking notes on improvement as we are. What you guys mention, we take directly back to the discussion boards. We've got a current Future Strategy discussion, lots of ideas!

What I'll do is hear out the feedback. After a while, or if something is really compelling, I'll give a teensy bit of insight about how we're going to be implementing the changes you're suggesting. We'll take time to discuss things as a staff as this thread develops, and get back to you guys.

Sound good?



Remember, this is a thread about what you want to see next, based on how you feel about the past. The focus of this thread should always be how we can improve the future. So chewing up the past and spitting it back out without some kind of solution or idea is non-productive in terms of this discussion.

My own player opinion:

1.) The Reyes Plot was an example of Good vs Extreme Evil. No current evil we have is as well-developed, and would pale in comparison to severity if it were to become the center of conflict. So instead, I suggest we look to Law vs Chaos, or class tensions, religious heresies, progressivism vs traditionalism, and the Divine pushing back against Arcane abuse/misuse.

2.) While doing that, focus on the hubs. Player numbers were huge for the plot events-- keep the numbers by keeping players interacting with each other.

3.) Small plots, small plots, small plots-- but have them be connected by a general storyline that fits into one of the above conflict paradigms. A general direction, not one that you dictate the outcome, but one that you encourage and react to when players take initiative and when they don't.

4.) In the collapse of the afterwar period, people will be reconstructing. It will have a natural tendency to lean toward a sandbox. There will be political intrigue, but ensure that it is relevant and available to many players-- But not something they feel forced into participating.

Personally, I love seeing DM's make the world come alive. Have Hilrash speak to you when you sell things to him, have random people or monsters talk or act oddly. Maybe turn this into a tiny story. Maybe not such a tiny story, but not so huge as to last.... 8 years? Not everyone can play as often or as long as they'd like, but everyone deserves some DM attention once in a while. Not complaining! Simply stating how I'd like it to be. I've had DM's do these things with me, and it breaks up the expected monotony of dungeoning or even walking from place to place.

The Gods.... this can get tricky since in my years here, I've never seen the Gods do much. As Alanna stated, religion has taken a backslide. I played on another server where every DM had a Deity associated to them. Sure we do that here to some extent, but, I have never seen that acted upon. Again, keep interactions small, subtle, and of course, some deities would never do this, but many would, or would do it indirectly. A little fear of the gods is a good thing I think.

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The current state of the server leaves a lot of breathing room opposed to the past few months (years maybe) to explore and deviate. There is no overshadowing megaplot, or any plot whatsoever that will shove out what a player is doing, nor a railroad track that despite your efforts cannot be broken away from.

With Cordor in shambles and so many diverse factions, characters and organizations in Amia we've a chance to give everyone a stake in one place, and to build their lot and pull and twist to see their designs pursued. If this doesn't scream centralization and inclusion I don't know what does. This reorganization would bolster player-to-player relationships and also make those oh-so-distant plots a little bit closer to grasp if only geographically.

In line with the encouraging of roleplay in hubs we should focus on Cordor, long has the server had an issue of centralization, and now we've got a relatively fresh start to start restructuring a city that could easily facilitate every alignment, and with enough work most dogmas. (or at the very least interact with them)

I think instead of looking to "What do we do next?" DMs should take a few months to look at what they players have been doing, what they are doing, what they want to do and help them do it. It's clear from the finalization of the Reyes plot that most people don't want to be forced into a story, they want DM interaction but they want it to be interaction, not railroad.

Now with no plot that must be hammered on daily the DMs should have more time to ensure player-made plots are better facilitated. There are so many things that can be done with just a DM looking over your shoulder and playing the ever-restrictive NPC.

Sandbox

That's the key word we've had coming up, and sandbox on Amia requires less focus on driving a direction (aka forcing a plot, railroading) and more on empowering players to shape the future.

No plot created by DMs could stand to the total open-endedness that can come from a player who unlike Reyes is entirely fallible, and anyone from a level 2 to a level 30 can have a meaningful impact on a player's plot. And player plots unlike DM plots don't have a set-in-stone end, they have a desire, a goal but it has to be fought for, and it can be fought against.

The greatest pitfall of the previous plot was the utter feeling of unimportance, and it was warranted granted the stories I've read. I'm sure some had some ability to alter the plotline but for the most part it had a very defined path.

With the players in charge of future plots and the DMs assisting them impartially we can see just what a community can do together.

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bad man

I'm going to speak up on the opposite side of the 'more gods' argument.

I loathe the gods in D&D. I see them as too involved, even through their clergy. Having any sort of direct divine involvement is, in my experience, hyper-dangerous to a plot and a server. At most divine involvement should be visions, feelings, etc. Deus Ex Machina situations or even divine appearances are asking for trouble, as a divine presence is simply too powerful to ignore and their words consequently given overriding weight. All too often this will lead to trampling of player efforts and a general cheapening of the plot. I decidedly enjoy Amia because I don't have the gods shoved down my throat constantly like I did on other servers, and if that changed my interest and that of a number of others would probably drop sharply. When I used to DM I myself overused gods far too often and learned my lessons the hard way; gods are a dangerous tool at the very best.

I already hate Gond because he can say "This invention doesn't work" and end efforts through divine fiat because he (or more appropriately the DM) thinks the idea is too advanced or really for any reason whatsoever. While I think it's bullshit, I also understand the need to keep technology from taking its natural progression as that would change the server landscape in a permanent and irreversible way. Still, the idea of invisible "Universe Police" who can completely screw you over with a word just rankles me, and involving the gods in a more extensive manner would be dangerously liable to have that happen on more than one occasion.

Any increased involvement of the gods must continue to be through periphery means- though I would not be against very devout followers getting rewards like an odd ability or a weapon or something. But no divine decrees, no divine mandates, nothing should ever come directly from the mouth of a deity.

As to things I would like to see:

- More willingness to make PCs suffer. This is a mixed bag depending on the player, but I at least feel a little put out when my characters' suffering and hardship is self-defined. It makes me feel like an attention whore whenever I give my character some sort of problem, and as a result I really don't feel my characters get a lot of good development because they're simply never made to endure hardship. I know this is a very risky proposition; some players get butthurt when their character's hair is messed up. Still, I'd love to see it.

- Less 'planned out' events. It feels like a lot of events have a preplanned destination in mind, even if DMs don't necessarily plan how to get there. Sometime I'd love to see a problem that is simply "BBEG shows up and starts wrecking shit. What do you do?" with absolutely no plan or MacGuffin at all. Players are bloody ingenious and I have never failed to see plausible and usually brilliant plans come from player efforts during plots only to watch those plans and efforts get sidelined as (certain) other PCs go grab the MacGuffin and solve the plot in some way that feels horribly preplanned. Just throw a bad thing at us and let us figure it out.

- More willingness to change the module based on player actions. This one I can imagine as being impossible for practical reasons, but if at all possible I really would like to see things happen on a more regular basis; the Dale, for example, has remained about the same throughout the war despite trenches, fortifications, and allied camps being set up. It really breaks immersion when there's no indication of ongoing events represented in any but the hardest-hit areas. I know module updates are a pain in the butt, so if this isn't possible then it just isn't. I wonder if it's possible to script placeables in a way that DMs can spawn persistent placeables that carry over between resets?

- More "smart mundane" evil. We have a good number of Halasters, but we're terribly short on Tucker's Kobolds. A brilliant Goblin general with the warrens united behind him would be every bit as terrifying as the invading Amnish and far harder to exterminate, but I see mundane threats being blown off all the time because (a) they're weak and (b) they're stupid. Weakness can't be helped much, but if they were genuinely smart strategists they don't have to be strong. A kobold leader who followed Sun Tzu's teachings to the letter (albeit not called that here) would be terrifying; striking undefended points and fading into the thickets as soon as adventurers came to kill them, they would be the bane of countless parties AND be a challenge that wouldn't overwhelm lowbies.

I'll think of more later, but for now I need to run!

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~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear.
~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt.
~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.

I thought this was a pretty profound way of putting it.

Ninja stole my quote.

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Mathus, Void Apostle of the New Moon

This reflects my opinion quite well.

What Hackums stated, picked up some parts only and added some own.




And not just with certain groups.



Especially the last part, not forced to participate, the Reyes plot left pretty much no room to other than be participate in it.



I disagree with the suffering part, the DM's done pretty good job in that regard. And I mean it in a positive way, just make sure you give the player opportunity to get healed as well in the end, or some kind of conclusion. As well it is nice to see your actions actually taking place in the server. I have to agree, don't include Gods directly. It feels very odd that a God with hundred of thousands of servants would suddenly focus on one small island. Anyhow, these are only my opinions in regards of others posts.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

I am absolutely against divine interaction - unless it is done subtly through an indirect means. As in... Instead of Torm getting all uppity about some bad guy and ordering his loyal paladin servants himself, have a servitor create the plot hook. Maybe not even a servitor. Just some sort of vague sign or indication.

I don't want to see Chosen or gods themselves. I want to see the little people who also matter. Good or bad.

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I think stuff like the Time of Troubles did a lot to 'teach' the gods that they need to start tapping their servants to do what they want to see done. I also think that the servants of gods hearing from those gods is not bad, as long as it's subtle, because that's how they work through their 'chosen' (lower case for emphasis). We can't ignore that the gods are an important facet of this game setting, but they're also fallible, so sometimes a mortal can teach a god a thing or too.

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Mathus, Void Apostle of the New Moon

I would love to see the faiths and the gods play a more important role on Amia. That does not mean that the gods should walk Amia, but that they interact with their followers. A sign by light shining through the windows upon the altar, or a dove leading a cleric somewhere. Mysterious guidance as the general rule.

If more specific, a feeling of otherwordly comfort or courage for a faithful seeking strength in a time of dire need. A paladin or cleric no longer feeling the reassuring bond to his deity, instead of falling immediately. The faithful overcome by love and joy after an exceptional deed.

I think how Dusty handled Lolth for the Underdark is a very good example. He has done a fantastic job keeping the religious aspect central, while not reverting back to 2005 Amia where Lolth was regularly bigbyed by adventurers.

The big events for me would be of a messenger of the god would arrive due to an extreme need, or if a deity would descend to take a truly exceptional follower to the afterlife, like in Baldur's Gate 2 when Torm descended after a battle to take Keldorn with him.

I love this idea. I've always loved the seemingly random events that happen on the server, when they do happen, and simply watching things unfold. Sometimes it's a mess, but usually a fun mess, and sometimes it's an enjoyable little happening that we can do in an hour or two.

Prime example? Brodog. Guy is hilarious, pops up randomly, then one day people decide to attack him, and it just goes on from there. Nothing is planned, nothing is thought of in advance, and it's always enjoyable.

Or that Gentleman Adventurer guy whose name I have forgotten. He's a blast, as well.

Even if we want another big server-wide plot or something, or just a big guy for everybody to worry about, I'd like it to be unplanned, or have the outcome unplanned at the very least. Have Muurmuundamned invade Wharftown or something, and then set fire to the Dale, laughing maniacally atop a flaming undead wyvern.


Also, I'd like to see some kind of deific involvement - not intervention or miracles, but something like "As you make a sacrifice on the altar, Gruumsh looks favorably upon you." Anything that indicates that the gods aren't completely DEAD. I mean, we just had a guy apparently try to become Ao or Jesus or something. I'd hope the gods are actively looking down at the section of Faerun that just saved the pantheons, AKA Amia.

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Osiris Masud

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Abernathy Hearthart, Salandran Healer (similar to my avatar picture of the lovely Jordan Madley )
Azorgl da Mercenary, Cigar toting Ogre...hero?

I would love to see a greater importance put on faith, worship and the gods, but without overt interventions or divine clashes every second Tuesday. Small incidents, tests of faith, ambiguous signs with no explanations, possibly even subtle heresies played out through minor, seemingly casual encounters with no obvious goal in mind. Obviously, this takes some planning but it should be done in a low-key way and with as much player involvement as possible. As an example, a minor cleric of God X finds a book in a 'random' treasure drop while adventuring. It looks like a set of sacred writings but is in some ways contrary to the orthodox view. Will the player start their own heterodox sect? Will they contest with established, higher-level clerics? Yes, this requires subtle DM attention to a few players, and not all such things will be picked up by the player base, but it has the potential to involve quite a few if someone takes it and runs with it. Also, events may go in completely unexpected directions. As such, it's sort of the antithesis of the usual DM plot. I think it's important to keep the appearance of DMs (e.g. by possessing NPCs) to an absolute minimum otherwise players will smell a plot and the attention whores will come out.


Please! Give us moral ambiguity. Tough choices! Crises of faith! Suffering! Pathos!

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~Sharess on AmiaWiki~
Priestess, politician, prostitute
"[They] were moving in on me like Sharessans on a new broad in the bath house" - Tracer Bolt
AmiaWiki mod (mostly inactive)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e8OBQ-tHsY

I guess what I am trying to say is lets get back to some old skool D&D staples like Orc war bands, raiding Ogres and Dragon hoards to loot! We have had months of events that were baffling and confusing and at times boring consisting of literally hours standing around doing nothing *ahems* unless you were in the clique, so yeah we have had enough moral ambiguity for now thanks!

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Abernathy Hearthart, Salandran Healer (similar to my avatar picture of the lovely Jordan Madley )
Azorgl da Mercenary, Cigar toting Ogre...hero?

I think that'll pretty much always be the case unless the adventure is specifically designed for a specific group of low-levels. Possessing NPCs or spawns and varying a hunt or running a mini-adventure avoids some of the high-level take-over. For plots/incidents involving the divine, I suggest starting small and seeing if they take off. Low levels would be great for such things.

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~Sharess on AmiaWiki~
Priestess, politician, prostitute
"[They] were moving in on me like Sharessans on a new broad in the bath house" - Tracer Bolt
AmiaWiki mod (mostly inactive)

The Influence of the Gods is kind of a central theme to Forgotten Realms. Most times, it's very subtle, a light feather touch at best... there are times there are more direct manifestations but usually when things are about to go awry.

As for Scale of plots, I do agree at this point we need more Smaller scale plots more than anything right at present.

I'll pick up on these two things, and try to elaborate from a DM perspective that might give a bit of insight into how we think, and some potential obstacles with these.

One of the cardinal attributes of the future plotlines and conflict paradigms we've been trying to come up with is "Less planned conclusions." Less railroading, so to speak. Which sounds like a no-brainer. Give more capacity to the player to influence the outcome of events. And I'm all for it-- However.. we have to recognize it as a double-edged sword.

When most people hear that a DM is railroading, the first impression is that he's doing it because he enjoys his own image of the plot, or even that he's doing it to slight the player. In fact, in most of the cases that I've railroaded plotlines myself, it was to save the player.

As often as the players can come up with really creative ideas to a solution, and beat back the 'BBEG' with stunning performances.... so too can they attempt it and absolutely, catastrophically fail. Some of the plans PC groups have come up with have left my jaw on the ground in utter astonishment at how absolutely bad they are! It's not objectively bad, of course (I enjoy flaws!). Sometimes, it's not even bad strategy! Things just go.. horrendously wrong!

Just recently, the boarding party of an Allied vessel engaged an Amnish mercenary group. The strategy wasn't bad, the NPC's were no stronger than regular PC builds, things looked completely okay. And in a quick moment, about 3-4 DM's watched an entire party of our server's heroes go face down into the floorboards. The DM chat looked something like this:



And we ended up sitting there for probably ten minutes, finishing blinking and figuring what... to do with the bodies, how to make it so that, ah, the story didn't just stop with, "And so they died on a ship. I've printed new character sheets!"

What I mean to say out of all of this, is that as intriguing as it is (Even for me) to consider running a server style with a very sandbox feel with player actions determining the end result, I also see it as being incredibly dangerous. If players have the complete capability to win based on their own actions, they also have the ability to lose. And the whole, fundamental idea of the hands-off-the-railroad experience is that the DM's don't control the outcome, for better or worse.

In the end, we have to find balance. I'd love to let players punish themselves for their poorly made plans, and I'd love to let folks achieve high successes from great ones. But as a server culture, we'll need to figure out ways from staff and players both to feel more comfortable embracing loss before we can entertain the idea of more wholly removing our hands from the reins.

Just a few of my thoughts:

1) Yes, gods. In full agreement. A huge chunk of the setting feels missing on Amia. Making the faiths more alive would be good. As others have said the will of the gods should be subtle but definitely existent and felt on the server. Especially with all these powerful clerics running about the server. I'd like to see more pokes from DMs regarding their faith.. subtle dreams, visions, portents etc from the gods or messages from their respective churches. Could be a useful tool for mini quests and player interaction: The god Velsharoon sends a vision to his high priest in Tarkuul informing them of the location of an ancient relic buried somewhere in the Underdark which would increase the power of the church. Meanwhile, Kelemvor sends a dream to his high priest warning of the relic falling into the wrong hands. So the two churches send their followers out to find the relic. etc etc.

Use the existing NPC churches more, involve them in plots and settlement politics. Let them have influence and opinions on matters which guide their followers regarding events. I am yet to see a church do anything public on Amia. For example during the recent plot the undead loving city of Tarkuul parks itself right outside Cordor, sends its people in and out the city, starts taking Cordorians away, sends lots of undead to fight the bad guys, while the (from my understanding) large and influential church of Lathander in Cordor sits on its thumb and does nothing. Which gets me to my second point.

2) Cause and effect. It'd be nice to see more server consequences played out in plots and events. So Cordor is now in ruins, how is this effecting other settlements on Amia? Cordor was the biggest economic hub on Amia. No more traders coming in, no more goods being bought, no more wealth flowing in? Therefore, the surrounding settlements should feel this as well. I.e. Merchants in Cordor can no longer afford to buy their metal from Barak Runedar. The smiths in Cordor have no metal to make tools with. Bendir Dale has no tools to buy for their farmers. Their harvest is low this year. They cannot produce enough food to sell to Barak Runedar. The dwarfs get grumpy.

Settlements all have their DMs which is great, but sometimes it feel like each settlement is its own sandbox and they rarely influence each other in inadvertent ways and only when direct action is taken. Perhaps if DMs were more aware of what each other's settlements were doing and react accordingly with their own. I'd like to see more interconnectivity.

3) More module updates from player activity. Yes, please. Of course this is work for the team but little things are appreciated so that players feel they are having effect on the server without having to make a formal request to do so. Settlement A sends troops to settlement B. Throw a few of their NPC troops in the mod. It is so difficult for people to keep up with all the imaginary happenings in the server from player activity which means the player efforts are usually invalidated when somebody who is unaware just breezes through your war camp when they shouldn't be able to do so, but since it was not put into the sever it does not actually exist outside of your own knowledge. no big updates this way, but just little ones.

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aaegus battlehammer™

cloak rockhewer

murtaugh gunn

I guess I'm of a different school of thought than most. If my character does something so dumb they should die, kill them. Permanently if it's warranted. And yes, it's not uncommon for a spectacularly bad plan to take shape, but losing should be an option. It feels like that's not the case; I really can't recall an event where the PCs came away feeling like they'd abjectly lost, and that (for me at least) pulls me out of the plot and makes me feel like I'm not really making a difference.

Clearly "permakill the idiots" is not a viable tactic because we'd all be dead, but what I'm getting at is that quite often it hasn't felt like PCs have ever won or lost on their own merits, rather like they were fumbling their way through a story with an end in mind. When a bad guy got away he would often get away via some ridiculous means or flat DM despawning him, and when the good guys would win it was sometimes in spite of their overwhelming stupidity. That's not always a bad thing, but mixing it up would go a long way to alleviate the feeling of unimportance. If your plot doesn't get to its planned conclusion because the PCs managed to drop a piano on the BBEG out of nowhere, fine. If the BBEG laughs at the attempt and hellballs the lot of them before playing croquet with their severed heads, fine. I just want to go into an event thinking "I hope we make it out of this alive" instead of "Slot for mob spam, pack some raise scrolls, did I leave the dryer on?".

I think not planning conclusions to plots would go a very long way towards improving this aspect of play. I agree with you that railroading is sometimes necessary to save the players, but I feel it should only really be necessary to save the players if the setting itself will also be destroyed as a result. If the players have to respawn because they washed up dead on the shore after losing a fleet battle, no big deal. If the fleet would logically overrun the entire island if the PCs lost, yeah, railroad a bit.

This is, of course, more extreme than a lot of people would like and I understand why the team is more likely to take a more moderate approach and not be as murder-happy with PCs as I would be. You have to please a rather broad array of tastes, I don't. I don't think you'll ever be at a place where you can just take your hands off and let players have at it; there's just some people who can't handle the consequences and that's fine. They don't play for nail-bitingly hard RP, they play to escape, relax, or have fun being someone else for a while. That said, it would be lovely if DMs would keep an eye out for those of us who don't mind a little suffering and loss, we're perfectly happy to help at least make things more serious by dying if we deserve it.

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~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear.
~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt.
~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.

My view on this is that perhaps the DMs are working on the wrong assumption that all players want to be saved and always win. I took note of this announcement when getting involved in the Arcanium plot and I know many others did as well knowing full well there would be dire consequences for failure, and actually welcomed it. However, it did not play like that. Nobody got permed, or horrendously maimed. There ended up being absolutely no consequences whatsoever for being involved in the plot even though this sticked announcement was made with the warning to players: "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here". I say let the PCs fail badly now and again. On that ship event everyone going out there knew the odds were against them and most likely they would not come back alive. 65,000 against a few hundred, somebodys going to get really hurt in that! But strangely nobody did, my character met them the next day and it was like they had a walk in the park.

If the players failed in that sea battle so what. Other's would have been waiting to pick it up on Amia when the nasty fleet of savages landed. We all prepared for it IG. And being DMs you can swerve the plot how ever it would work in relation to player failure.

I say if players make foolish plans to save the day and as a DM knowing it is doomed to failure, please let it play out as it should. Let them fall.

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aaegus battlehammer™

cloak rockhewer

murtaugh gunn

Oh, no no. Don't mistake me! It's not that I worry that all players don't want consequences. I worry that I'd give painful, enduring consequences to a group and there's one person inside it who really does not want them, and it turns into an awful OOC mess.

I'm more okay with having a style of play that says, "If you want to make an impact, you can do so-- but you'll also be subject to consequences when you fail." That's fine! But there are players on Amia who prefer a lighter style of play, and yet-- don't want to be excluded from Rp with the rest.

It's just a matter of balance. So far the feedback has been good, keep it up!

A cardinal rule of D&D is that, given the opportunity, players can always be counted on, sooner or later, to do something really, really stupid.

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~Sharess on AmiaWiki~
Priestess, politician, prostitute
"[They] were moving in on me like Sharessans on a new broad in the bath house" - Tracer Bolt
AmiaWiki mod (mostly inactive)

I think there should be an emphasis on keeping each of the island's settlements unique. We should celebrate their differences. There should be more to a decision of where to root your character than there is currently. In most huge events, it amounts to every city on the island banding together to squash the bad guy. I feel like that homogenizes the different cultures on the island and removes a big chunk of what makes each place special. I want there to be real benefits and consequences for choosing Cordor over Kohlingen, Wiltun over Uhm, etc.

Almost hand in hand with that...I think the scope of DM events could do with a massive toning down. The Reyes, Undoer, and other plots all have this insurmountable bad guy. In my opinion, there is nothing fun about an event where there's really only one outcome. Did anyone ever think that Reyes might succeed? It would have meant the end of Amia; game over. This gets 50 people involved and everyone tends to step on each others' toes. People feel left out. People kind of mill around until the event presents the next step. Smaller, shorter events catering to a few individuals would allow the DMs to present stories that flesh out the world as it is rather than drop something in and force the world to react.

On the heels of the last point, the request system could also work to achieve that end. Making a few posts detailing how you gather the metal, then forge it into your +5 Longsword of Doom is pretty straightforward and doesn't really involve a whole lot of effort from the world of Amia. But, for those people who aren't expert crafters (or those who might like an alternative means of obtaining their DC gear), placing an emphasis on having quests to obtain these items makes the whole process a bit more memorable, and gives a character ties to whatever area hosted the quest, strengthening their bond with the people of that area.

I guess the overall theme of my suggestions is that I want a smaller, more personal experience. Yes, I'm aware that I share this world with countless other people. I think it's possible for everyone to get such an experience, though.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

I can't say I've read everything in this thread, but I'll toss in my two cents. It may be the last time I do so for a long while.

What do I want, now that this huge plot is over? Well. If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: don't inflict suffering upon characters, and then leave them to their own devices. I am not saying that plots should always be won by PCs, or that they should always emerge unscathed, but don't leave scars on characters and leave them to fester, without closure or even the chance to attain it. Give characters the chance to gain closure in a way they see fit, instead of leaving them hanging; this does not mean they should be guaranteed to be successful, or end it in a way they expected, but at least allow them to strike back, instead of being victims! I've cited a positive example before, in BoB's plots with the harpies, Malarites and especially the werewolves in Brogendenstein. The role of a DM should not be to inflict suffering on a character for shits and giggles, or force them into unwinnable scenarios (unless they truly, legitimately screw up). It should be to entertain players, immerse them, and allow them to roleplay their characters in situations that physically cannot happen in player-to-player interaction, in an in-depth way that can't be found in regular Amian roleplay.

Tying into this, I want to see a larger number of self-contained, one-off or two-parter plots that nonetheless gradually make a small, but tangible mark on Amia and the world around it. My favorite kinds of events are relatively spontaneous plots where characters can actively work at achieving the outcome, where it isn't set in stone, because more often than not, these are the kinds of plots that allow me to actually portray the depth and personalities of my characters, developing them in a way that is both unforeseen and exciting for me.

As an example, where would Triel'ithra be now, had she not been captured by the Malarites after dueling Hamhock, fated to join a Wereboars' harem, and unable to display her tenacity as a warrior? If she and her adventuring companions didn't save those women from the Malarites' clutches, would she have been inspired to become a Darksong Knight at all? I don't think so, and BoB set my character in this direction. Not because I was forced to do so, but because the event was so well-crafted that it gave me the drive to have Triel take that path, because she felt like a hero.

Now, I'm not saying that such plots should always make us feel like heroes. But I think they should invoke -something- in us, something tangible that isn't forced, and allows us to exercise our creativity, to show to the DMs and other players the true content of our characters and the limits of our creativity and investment in them.

Finally, I'm in agreement that the gods should take a much, much more active role in Amia. I don't believe it's favoritism if a deity like, say, Gorm Gulthyn alerts a particularly devout warrior of his faith by his customary, divine warning (manifesting as a hand to strike a gong or shield), when this warrior has been observed by DMs and players alike to be an exceptionally devoted and steadfast defender of the Dwarven people; conversely, it shouldn't be out of the question for Eilistraee to indicate her displeasure with one of her clergy's disgraceful actions by chilling her hands or feet, as is stated in some of the sources I've read. I'd like subtle indications of the gods, small manifestations like I've mentioned, or a presence that followers can feel - such as feeling a sense of pride or approval in Tormite paladins when they accomplish an honourable and noble deed. More obvious manifestations should be saved for climactic events - imagine if Gorm Gulthyn, who is known to send his avatars forth to defend beleagured Dwarven holds, made an appearance at Barak Runedar during the Winter War! My intention with this idea is not to favour one player over others; rather, it should be a reward for roleplay that extends beyond out-of-character praise. Excellent roleplay should have tangible benefits, in-character and out.

These are the things I want to see on the server at large, now that the Arcanum/Amnish plot is concluded.

In any case, you guys can see my posts expanding on what I've said in the topic here: viewtopic.php?p=1227463#p1227463 viewtopic.php?p=1227489#p1227489

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I play...
Mihaela-Luminița Sămășescu, Paladin of Torm

The lack of consequences for complete and total derp to the point of aligning with alienists as divine casters caused more facepalm and "I'm out of here, bye" than any one person's butthurt about a long overdue fall from grace could have. You get, and keep, the kind of players you cultivate and cater to.

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GSID: Piranha, Borntokill, Free Beer, Bad Luck Inc.
Player of: Nothing atm. Busy elsewhere.

Grell: I would like to hire the Kossuth maid service. Do you do waste disposal? I've a list of homes you could visit

I just want less epicness more normal faerun plots

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

I'm not certain what this post is intended to do; however, I am fairly certain it was not intended to be constructive. That being said, I'd like to remind everyone that this thread is a fantastic and healthy thing. I'm thoroughly enjoying reading everyone's thoughts, and many of you are of a like mindset as I am -- especially insofar as deity involvement with the Forgotten Realms is supposed to be (ie, active, but behind the scenes and subtle). So let's make sure that each of our posts continue this most excellent trend of being constructive, with a clearly defined suggestion followed with sound reasoning behind such (and avoid as much harsh language and vitriol as possible in the meantime).

Thanks!

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"I will never refuse a challenge from an equal. I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest."

In keeping with the somewhat "what now" theme of this thread, one of the things I'd like to see make a comeback are the alternate beginnings plots. The weight of the Reyes situation has for a long while meant there hasn't been much player or DM time for them. So, I suppose I'll ask the question.

Are alternate beginnings something the player base still has interest in, as a method to focus on the smaller regional affairs and culture?

Yeah seeing the gods doing more might be nice, I know I have not really don't any deity/faith type RP because they don't seem to do anything other then fall people and sit back and watch us has we face impending doom. Visions and other minor less direct things might be neat for the people.

As other people said much smaller plots, giant ones like Reyes got so large and powerful it was at the point where it feels like we could not lose the war on a OOC level given I don't think the staff would have made Reyes the new Ao, removed mystras ban, enslaved all the non-humans...ect

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

Did not read anything but the first post, mind you.

But I really, really, really would love to see more random and short plots. I direly miss these lately.

Browse around the world, my dear DMs, watch the dastardly players pillage "insert random dungeon here" and spice it up a bit with some random encounter, boss or small quest.

Long plots and political situations are great as a main story line of sorts, but there's quite a few of those who have no time or interest to be a part of it.

So - more random, short plots and/or quests

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Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
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Obsidian (inactive)

For my part (though given how absent I've been, take this more as a general remark than justified personal wish), I think individual DMs' plots should be interconnected. For as long as I've been here (i.e. forever), the mode of operation has mostly been DMs coming up with their own plots they want to run, and proceeding to make up the villains and context. There's been some cooperation, but I think it's safe to say it isn't the norm.

So instead of coming up with new enemies and new random, short events, try to draw more on past material and stuff your colleagues are doing right now. In an island as small as Amia, new monster tribes or secret cabals don't just appear overnight. There are many loose threads in Amian history to take advantage of. (On that note, while Reyes is dead, I really hope you don't just drop everything related to this big plot - its aspects may take a back seat, but it's not as if a magical conclusion to everything is very credible.) I loved the Neo-Vodak story, for example, where Yossarin referenced Halen's old plot. (It was Halen's right?) Similarly, you can't have several big monster, magical or brigand threats on the same island without them impacting each other. If there's a djinn merchant traveling Amia, you'd think some ambitious crime syndicate might want to raid his wares. Individual DMs' plots should have connections like that.

Small events are nice, and I don't mean to discredit those who ask for them, but they can be meaningless if they don't tie into the world or act as potential entryways into the larger story. If you want to raid a bridgand lair and be done with it, that's fine. But if you want to go deeper, figure out where they came from and how they've affected their surroundings, there should be something there. Maybe they were actually, if not bribed, then at least strangely tolerated by Cordorian road patrols as long as they directed their attention on goods from Kohlingen. Maybe by killing them you angered their boss at a bigger camp, or allowed a group of orcs to move in their place. Perhaps a merchant is now safer and free to announce another event next week, thanks to the heroes who saved his caravan. I know this from my own experience: I once ran an entirely random, beefed-up boss encounter/event in the temple of Malar, and instead of leaving happily with the loot, the PCs wanted to investigate further what had happened. I cooked up some explanation of a hunt or whatever, but I regretted not thinking about the background and implications further before I ran it.

Ultimately, the idea of a big story is what keeps the world alive. Not everything should stem from some central plot, but it should be possible to tie it in. If you have been killing brigands or acquiring magical loot, it should reflect in the economic and political balance of the island's city states, or NPC opinion. I agree that players should be allowed to pursue things that interest them, but too much sandbox and freedom has a downside; their actions should have consequences and NPC reactions that force them to recognize, if not participate, in a story that unfolds in a living world. A master narrative is what we wanted, an aimless sandbox is what we complained about for years and years, so let's try to find a balance.

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Basically Tarkuul - Kholingen priests teaming up

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Considering our priests are all NPCs (except one!) I highly doubt it's Kohlingen/Tark priests teaming up.

I would like to see more NPC's controlled by DM's. A random emote from an NPC can inspire PC's into all kinds of situations. My characters are defined by their interaction with other players, i particularly enjoy the interaction with NPC's that can provide sub plots for even further definition.

As an example of this, my favourite NPC interaction i experienced was a sub plot connected to a server wide plot. An NPC offered the party parasites that would bolster certain abilities and powers of individual PC's to 'help' with the coming battle. While there are obvious consequences that NPC then appeared to my PC on a number of occasions and it inspired so much RP and character development that the character was almost defined by his use of the parasites. (as an aside the parasites didn't really give special abilities particularly better than potions wands etc, i add this to counter any mention of power gaming)

I think server wide plots add the same definition to the server and the setting in the same way character plots add definition to the character.

The problem with non-epic plots is the ease of attaining maximum level and the absence of perma death. I couldn't take a kobold/goblinoid/orc army seriously considering your average lvl 30 geared character could slaughter the army before breakfast, possibly without using any resources. (maybe shouts about these kind of plots could be suffixed with "lvl 5 to 10 only" or something of the sort)

To summarize the Deity thoughts, could I say this:
"We want less severity, but more frequency."

Does that fit? No huge deity presences, or Chosen plots, or anything of a severity that would require Godly direct intervention--- But more religious themes, small nudges of NPC priests, or divine servants, guidance/care?

That, and also accessibility: clerics have spells to communicate directly with their deity, and they should receive hints and visions, if not on a frequent basis, then at least when it is warranted and when they ask. If a PC is clueless and casts Commune, or just prays ardently, "I don't know what to do; help me god" then most of the time a god should respond in some way. But in this, ambiguity is key: deities don't solve disputes between followers or give exact instructions on how you should lead your life and interpret their dogma and morality. They might give instructions about "I want this quest done", though.

This is a good way to involve people in larger stories, too. I'll use an example from the previous plot, not as something that should have been done (because there was already so much to do) but something that could have been done, given the resources: when the timeline started changing, it seems to me that deities associated with time and history, or specialized in fighting chronomancy, would have sent global alarm visions to their servants. Every cleric of Labelas Enoreth, Oghma and Mystra on Amia might therefore get a hint that something's going on, and investigate as necessary. I imagine this could lead, in active churches anyway, to synods where the meaning of the visions is debated and interpreted.

I think key in wielding religion is relying on churches; they are the temporal manifestations of the deity, and it's they who police doctrine and make decisions. On the other hand, since they are mortals and don't have a direct, unambiguous hotline to the deity, they are fallible and can be challenged. It is much more fruitful, therefore, to get a letter of reprimand from your superior or an internal investigator sent from the mother temple on the mainland than a divine phonecall, IMO.

That is my view on Falling, too. It should be rare and preceeded by ecclesiastical intervention. Gods have hierarchical churches for a reason, and those churches have established protocols of discipline and penitence.

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I think it is better summarized as in "Deities in the Forgotten Realms style". Deities have very different approaches to their followers. Some very rarely and only very mysteriously commune with their followers, while others do so on a much more frequent basis. As very simplified examples;

Lolth for instance has a very hands on approach. If a drow city needs to be brought to heels, she employs her Yochlol handmaidens. Her approval could be a massive dire spider having her face for a split second after a particularly well performed sacrafice. The snake whips of the lothite clergy are said to act in accordance to her will, and a lowly priestess would likely be unable to use them against a high ranking one in lolth's favor. She is also known to at times make an appearence, like she did in Menzoberrazan. But that is still a unique and very rare occurence, just more frequent or likely as of other deities.

Kelemvor on the other hand would never make himself known in person to his mortal followers. On such an occassion Lolth might manifest herself, he would at the most employ an emissary. Where Lolth might send a Yochlol handmaiden to get one of her cities in line, Kelemvor would likely employ far less direct means. Disapproval perhaps shown that the sunlight and moonlight no longer fall into his temple.

Mieliki might lead a favored follower to safety as he is pursued by some wicked evil, by a unicorn showing the the follower way before dissapearing behind the next bend. Torm lifted Keldorn, his favored paladin, into the heavens upon his death. Bhaal is waiting (by the new recent releases) for the last remaining two Bhaalspawn to kill one another, so that he can be reborn.

I support both IronAngel and Pony in that deities would mainly act trough their churches (and many of these churches are immensely powerful organizations in their own right), or divine intermediaries. For a good guide of this, there's the Deity Do's and Don'ts supplement. It gives you an index on what kind of animals, gemstones or other symbols a deity might manifest itself in.

Overall, it would be important to establish first how the DM team intends for the gods to be present. Are they going to show up in true avatar form if the circumstances are right? Are they going to manifest in other forms (like Tempus manifesting into a sword or a warhorse)? Are they going to perform direct interventions, or prefer empowering their servants?

Are the gods powerful but material entities? Or are they more a collective of gestalt philosophies given sentience - both shaping their adherents and being shaped in return - but without true physical presence? Or a combination of both?

Overall though, I second Hackums' in saying that the presence of the divine should be felt more frequently, but clear and obvious divine intervention should be rare indeed - and reserved for true monumental events. I think it would have been fine for Mystra to make an appearance in avatar form at the conclusion of the Reyes plot, for example - considering the scope and stakes of the plot. A few months ago Hudson ran a plot about the defiling of a Mulhorandi tomb. During this plot, Nephtys (who is the Mulhorandi deity who protects grave sites, among other things) made an appearance in the form of light and a general sense of approval or displeasure. I thought that was genuinely well done.

On the whole, I think it would be a good idea to reinforce the idea that no matter what you do there will always be one god who is watching you do it - due to their portfolio sense. Even the most righteous Tormtar should think twice before directly insulting Bane (though Bane's clerics tend to be free game) or another evil deity. Even if Bane doesn't show up in person or otherwise directly smites the mortal for his insolence, it's quite likely that the paladin will suffer certain appropriate consequences - such as terrible nightmares (as he is the god of fear) or being subjected to Banite assassins. Especially the Greater Gods are very powerful, and should be treated accordingly. Just look at how people came to treat those who provoked Orcus - and he's not even a god.

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Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"

Tarkuul has its own main plot. For my character, Collin Reyes was a side quest. I'd definitely like to see that religion RP more, but then again, religion is a part of that Tarkuul plot as well. I think now that Amn and Arcanum thing is over, Amia will return to its regular state of being - Cordor vs Kohlingen vs Tarkuul.

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I would love to see more of the server be as mutable as Cordor. Cordor has gone through insane amounts of change and been completely open to player involvement during this time of upheaval. It has literally been amazing seeing just how much players have been allowed to do from the Ministry's brief involvement in things, to Dirk's involvement in West Cordor. The riots were the first sign that not only was Cordor moving forward again, but that it would be subject to player driven changes and initiatives.

And I would love to see more plot that start small, but have the ability to spin out of control like Mana's plot. The Far Realms plot is so great, and it shows just how much a plot can do by letting itself just sort of allow anyone to do anything if they think they can accomplish it; and it's even more rewarding when they do.

Another thing I would have seriously loved to see... after effects, and not just in Cordor or amia in general. The world was saved and only barely, what now? I still picture an arcanum occupied world being a threat even with Collin Reyes dead. However while seeing him turned into a zietgiest will sort of ambiguously solve a lot of problems caused by him, I would still love to see the world for how messed up it became during the Arcanum plot because of how it allows the rest of the server to interact with it.

If Cormyr is still fallen maybe Kohlingen wants to help them take their throne back!
If Thay is fallen maybe Tarkuul wants to put the Zulkir's back in power - or better yet raid some old towers owned by a zulkir or two, killing the weaker ones off now that they're Arcanum!

The possibilities are sort of boundless for change within a broken world and seeing them expanded upon would be wonderful, even though I know things ended in a way that sort of just supposed to "fix it". I think there are still ways around it personally and I hope so very much someone picks up on those ways and uses them.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

Never done one myself but I think these are an excellent way for a small group of lower-level characters to participate in interesting events that can shape their futures and where they can have some influence. If you offer up a plot hook to the general playerbase then the epics will be all over it and the lowbies get squeezed out because the challenge level has to be upped to handle the force the epics bring to bear.


Yes and yes.

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~Sharess on AmiaWiki~
Priestess, politician, prostitute
"[They] were moving in on me like Sharessans on a new broad in the bath house" - Tracer Bolt
AmiaWiki mod (mostly inactive)

Absolutely to both, Hackums.

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I'm just going to put it out there that Samantha has lost pretty hard sometimes. It may not seem like it because she's alive, but ... Yeah. (I kind of like it when she has. That doesn't mean have her lose more though!!! Or does it?)

Anyways I support the religious movement and OpenTheRift's commentary and accentuating player driven actions. Although I think Glim, Rigela and Kobra have already done amazing jobs with player driven actions in the major cities. It's just the outlier places that deserve a little bit more attention probably.

This sounds great. DMs might not even need to do anything more than appear to a player - even incredibly briefly - and then just watch the influence it has, the RP it could spawn for them. Spontaneous things like omens and visions that might not even need any preparation or 'follow up' DM time.

Little things like *A falling oak leaf lazily spirals down from the forest canopy, coming to rest on <insert name of Druid's> shoulder,* spawning a single coin on the floor of the market hall decorated with shamrocks, (associated with Tymora) that kind of thing. The events themselves could be innocuos enough to be dismissed by some characters as coincidence or luck, but depending on the character's personality and knowledge of the gods/superstition, it could be taken a different way and throw characters down an interesting route. It wouldn't have to be restricted to faith-based characters either.

Anyway, I think little events like that could help make the world feel more alive, and help characters feel (or dismiss) the presence of the Gods, all the while requiring relatively little time and effort.

As sort of aside, I feel sometimes people let their knowledge of the FR pantheon bleed into their characters (and I've been guilty of this) because I think certain gods might not be so well-known, especially evil, secretive or racially-oriented ones. I spent a lot of time reading up on them all so I'd have ideas for characters and gain familiarity with the universe, but having the information available so easily on an OOC level made me for mistake it for common in-game knowledge. Now I take pride in making certain characters obnoxiously ignorant of a lot of gods - great way to annoy clerics.

I had this long post made up last night, then my computer froze, I got mad and played my guitar for an hour, then went to bed.

@ Hakums, yes to both, sort of. The severity depends on the situation. I like Pony's comments on the subject as well. I think the deities are a big part of D&D, Gygax and Arneman used the Greek pantheon as a base, and those gods directly affected the lives of mankind as well.

@ Ego, I have not been involved in any Alternate Beginnings, but I like the idea of it. I think if I were to have another character, I would want it started in one of those plots.

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I think there's nothing wrong with epic plots, we need them every so often. The Reyes plot took it to the extreme, being a six year long campaign, kept the main characters fairly exclusive. Not to say that newer characters didn't have the chance to shine, I think many did. I can say for certain, that directly due to the Reyes plot, my character learned a lot about himself, and a path was more solidified for him, he even stepped into the foreground, which is rare for him.

I would like to see the DM's know the characters on a more personal level. That may be too much to ask, with so many players (some with so many characters), and the Staff being overworked as it is. Around a table, you know your players, their strengths and weaknesses, even likes and dislikes. This may fall in line with the smaller plot thing too. There could be little campaigns for groups of people or factions. Some could even tie in with others. A little over a year ago, I was involved in one that had only two of us, and the RP that it generated was incredible, it's a shame there was no conclusion to it. I was mentally preparing myself, for Crow to possibly not return from that one, by playing my alt more often. I've heard there's gossip in the DM ranks ;) don't be afraid to peek into our characters' lives, and see what makes them tick. By that, you can see what ticks them off, or tickles their fancy!

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Tarkuul High Priest of Velsharoon is PC.

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I'd like to see harsher divine punishments for those who turn their backs on their gods, rather than the gods shrugging them off as nuisances.

Shar used to mentally and sometimes physically torture those who turned their backs on her. Casting lightning down on them randomly, entrapping them in pocket planes for amusement, burning tattoos into their skin to show her domination over them even in conversion and all that happened to one player who wasn't even involved in the church of Shar on Amia, but it was just a part of his back story! (Khylaria was awesome, right!?)

Oh yes. Absolutely.

For example, it would repair the flimsy reputation paladins have because of a few who ruined it completely.

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Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
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Obsidian (inactive)