First allow me to preface that this stems from Glim the Player, not Glim the DM or Glim the Developer (though the latter has certainly provided some added insight, but is not at the core of my observations). The following does not indicate in any way what direction Glim the DM or Glim the Dev intends to take the server mechanics, it's merely the observations of a player, one among many.


There seems to be a discontinuity not in Amia in and of itself, but in the general concept of using Neverwinter Nights as a platform for an RP-based server. Granted that a certain amount of this stems from the D&D system as a base model to begin with, but is amplified by the changes that system underwent to fit into this particular video game. And the discontinuity is that it was designed first and foremost as a video game, with most video games designed around the mechanics of progressing through a story by overcoming challenges; challenges that while sometimes more decision or "RP" based, are more often than not designed around the hard mechanics of the game and the skill of the player to manipulate these mechanics.

Most if not all of us have had to face the tough choice between putting skill points in something that our character really should have for RP reasons, a skill that may very well offer zero mechanical benefit towards overcoming physical obstacles in the game, or something that we vitally need to assist in overcoming those obstacles. Do I put those extra 5 points in Persuade, or do I dump them into Tumble and get extra AC out of it? This is far from the only circumstance in which we must choose between the two aspects or at least "fudge" things a little.

We're an RP-based server, and yet we have a topic that is 174 pages long (50 posts per page) solely for advice on how to build a character to get the most out of game mechanics, while still maintaining some of the core RP of the character concept (most of the time). Where does that equate...?

Enter the perspective of a Developer, and all of a sudden you have such a broad spectrum of character builds, some purely based on RP, some purely based on the video game mechanics, and a wide variety in between, that you must try to make the game world balanced around. It just can't be done to include everyone, and trying invariable leaves some people choking on the dust as others move ahead, and leaves other people bored from the lack of challenge. This also causes a disparity between players in that you first have to overcome the differences in build knowledge, knowledge of how best to utilize the character building aspect of the game, and then have to overcome the disparity between the skill of the player at playing that character. Quite often this gets highlighted, especially when PvP becomes involved, as "power builders" but in reality I would say that this is a flaw of the game design, having that second layer of disparity between players, than anything else. If the need for knowledge of building characters to their fullest potential was removed, we would be left only with a difference in raw player ability to play the game, which is present in any video game and effectively halves the gap between the "haves" and the "have nots".

Now I'm not proposing that this is necessarily what we do, or if it's even possible at all without rewriting NWN from scratch (which is probably what it'd take), I'm just expressing what I believe the only solution to this discontinuity, is. And that would be to separate out the mechanical from the RP aspects of the characters in a manner in which you would not have to sacrifice one for the other. For example, have two skill point pools, one for all the mechanical skills like Discipline and Tumble, and one for the purely RP based skills like Persuade, Bluff, Lore. There could even be some crossover where you could use points from either pool for "half'n'half" skills like Perform.

However we're still left there with the disparity of build knowledge, as you're still going to have some players who crunch the numbers and figure out the best skill point spread in the mechanics section, the best feats in the mechanics section, etc. So really, the only true way to remove that disparity would be to remove the necessity of plotting out a character build at all or at least 95% of the way. There would obviously have to be enough variety in the classes to choose from, pre-made combinations for different "sub-class" types (a Rogue becomes a Swashbuckler, Assassin, Urban Suvivalist, etc.) and customization through requestable feats and spells and abilities such as we do now in order to provide the niche differences that RP variety demands, obviously.

But if the necessity of building ones character from the ground up was removed, knowing the numbers, knowing what feats play off each other not just in their ability to affect the game world and RP setting but in how they're necessary within the build, then that would free us to pursue the concerns of what we're really all here for (the RP) while still providing the platform to play the video game (that we also enjoy) and overcome the mechanical challenges we face IG.


*edit* Please remember that this is not a "how do we fix this" thread, if it was I'd have posted it in the Improving Amia forums. This is very much a "intellectual examination" thread, a "what if", something to see what other perspectives are on the issue I've raised.

Seven years ago, we did it first.


That said:
It works. And it's the correct approach to the problem. Tried and tested method.

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GSID: Piranha, Borntokill, Free Beer, Bad Luck Inc.
Player of: Nothing atm. Busy elsewhere.

Grell: I would like to hire the Kossuth maid service. Do you do waste disposal? I've a list of homes you could visit

Wouldn't it be much simpler to put a big sign saying "you might want to read this basic character build guide, otherwise your adventuring experience might become too difficult or impossible without a party"? Converting the class system into some pre-made choice based progression sounds dreadful, both from development and gameplay perspectives. That time could be better spent introducing new PRC's, or trying to fix some borderline OP/exploitable/wonky/broken etc. things.

I feel like education is far more desirable than catering.

As for the RP skills, perhaps make a separate RP skill tree as part of the Job System; you can have all the pnp skills in the world, question is - is it possible (or worth it) to make some/any of them interact with the module.

PS. I'm a technical author and instructor by trade, i'd be happy to contribute in the creation of comprehensive and easy to learn building guides.

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Mark it zero!

Good post. It is something I would like to see, though it would require (and allow) a great many more RP skills to be introduced. It could be a replacement for the job system (which is what I suspect you had in the back of your mind?).

I'm not sure if I understood one of your points exactly, but as regards the "need" to build to the max: I suspect many people who hone their builds to perfection don't do it so much because they need it - you get by in PvM just fine - but because it's fun. The idea of playing the game as well as you can, both mechanically and in RP, is what makes it rewarding. Sometimes, of course, that means building something unorthodox that isn't optimal, but is as good as it can be within the parameters of the concept. And that's what really makes it fun. So there'll always be optimal building, even if it was entirely unnecessary.

EDIT: And I said it would require the introduction of new RP skills because that's the only way to differentiate between characters, lest everyone take Bluff and Persuade.

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Are you suggesting that building characters should be like buying a car?
Where brands would be like races, and models like classes.
The models (classes) have different colors to choose from (gear crafting!), and then you pick an option package (skill/feat package, which is similar to what's already available in character creation).
Or like it used to be, when you could pick and choose your options (kinda like the server is now).

Or are you suggesting that the people with build knowledge create build templates, for people to choose from? And we all have to choose from a list?

I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this, but to be honest, I'm not sure I like it.
I don't build much, or know much about it, but I do like the option to do what I want, within reason.
I would not like to have to choose from a list of pre-made characters, that I can add a few options to, for a slightly different setup. There would be far less individualism, and just mostly cookie-cutter character builds.

NWN was designed as a video game, as you say, by people with limited knowledge of D&D. That hurt the game...for us role-players. Because we are trying to use a video game format, to role-play in a world with vastly more to offer than the game can provide. We do the best we can, with what we have, and try to change and improve what we can, with scripting. Those of us with limited build knowledge can go to those that have it, for build help, or just build purely for RP.

There is discontinuity, but because we are role-playing on a limiting video game.

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Let me understand Glim's proposal.... Make pre-made "builds" for characters? If this is what he's proposing, I'm really against this. I don't think seeing fifty clones of the same build walking around is a good idea. For one, there would always be one that is marginally more powerful, and you'd see a million of those.

I see Glim's point, but... honestly, those that truly spend time in RP are not the ones to worry about. And the "powergamers", "powerbuilders" and those that grind to 30 only to turn around and do it again with a new character are the least of the worries. They will do what they do no matter what changes you make. They do add to the "Adventurer Lifestyle" of the server, and put some items and gold into the economy, so even they have their purpose.

Time and time again, we've all seen that the longer a character stays on the server actively, the more involved they become, in one way or another. In my mind, it's the small differences between characters that make them all unique. Making them all the same and depending on player skill and roleplay to make those differences is defeating the purpose of D&D. The basis for the game is adventure, and fantasy. In pursuit of those, creating your own unique and awesome adventurer (in your own mind) is part of the fun of it all. If those that squeeze every ounce of power from their characters get bored with the system.... perhaps they will slow down and roleplay a bit, and.... if you don't have to have the most optimized build to be effective, maybe those that would take that last 5 in tumble would put it into bluff, because, for rp, it's an advantage.

My next statement is one that has come up a million times, and I still don't get why we have it. The +-5 level party restriction and party size restriction. If we TRULY are a ROLEPLAY server, then why wouldn't an experienced adventurer take that wet behind the ears newcomer under their wing and show them around? Apprentice relationships, mentoring.... heck...just plain old dungeon grinding.... If you're afraid of people levelling too fast? Really? It can be done in 1 to 3 weeks as things stand. Who cares if it happens faster? Besides, if we did remove the limitation, people might not be in such a rush to level because they're not missing anything along the way. What I mean is, if they can play with anyone on the server, and adventure with anyone (which to me is MUCH more realistic than having to come up with an IC reason why my charater can't go with that higher level or lower level), then maybe they'd slow down, and actually ROLEPLAY the levelling process, like they do on every other server I've played on. Too many times, people say, "I'm done grinding, I'm gonna go RP for a while", when they should have been RP'ing along the way...... Makes me sad.

Anyway, if you read all this, thanks. I love hearing new ideas, but, making everyone into a cookie cutter version of the characters is not something I'd be a fan of. Instead, let's look at WHY roleplay isn't happening or ways to encourage it.

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The way that I saw this disparity best closed in my NWN experience was 'lowering the cap'.

The server in mind did this by keeping the maximum character level at 8. What this achieved was the creation of a low magic server where the variations in skills, builds, HP, AB, AC between players just couldn't get too different. Consider that on Amia, we have 30 levels to branch off in different directions than other players-- 10 of which are epic, which account for severe and broad changes. They also automatically leveled the character up to level 8 upon entry, so there was no point in time where a player was ever that far from his peers. Now, folks still ended up grinding for gold, artifacts, equipment, etc-- but the server could instead focus on high-stakes political intrigue and adventuring RP in greater effort, because the mechanics just weren't all that varied between characters. There was enough to develop differences in flavor, but not enough to separate players as much as we see now.

For any familiar with Ravenloft, you can see this in part as well. Between your 3-6 leveled characters, you don't see a lot of mechanical difference while the big remaining power is 'RP Power' instead. Which is largely the goal, yeah? I roleplay to experience a heightened level of "PvP." And what I mean by that, is player vs player interactions, not (necessarily) physical combat. Rather than just relying on mechanics, I can set up assassins, gain political power, conduct espionage, find friends, develop groups, land, etc, etc. With the introduction of "Rp Power", player vs player interaction becomes extremely dynamic.

However, with Ravenloft (In my own opinion), we also see an example of a system that acts against this initial boon. What the first server noticed as a problem and addressed by giving the maximum benefit against it was leveling speeds. On Amia, we have a pretty fast leveling speed, so the end-game is a level 30 vs a level 30. The problem with that end-game is that the variation between level 30's in feats, skills, and gear can be huuuge. But some of these low-level servers have an end-game that is very difficult to reach. Having one level 16 cleric aggressor in an area frequented by 3-5's means that no matter what you once did to make it fair for players by lowering the cap, that the 'have' players, due to time and survival, have excelled into an untouchable power--- which can at times be worse than the difference between two level 30's on Amia.

Is this a feasible change for Amia, to cap the levels at 8-10? At this point, it would be really hard. And some folks would find the change not to their liking. Rebalancing monsters, items, classes and two entire servers of 'schtuff', it'd be a nightmare. But I think this can illustrate another angle to look at (And understand) what I believe is one of the major sources of this disparity and contention you've referenced.

Yeah this has all ways been a major problem I found... and the truth is mechanical benefit would win hands down every time because you knew what effect it would have, as glim pointed out with dumping points into tumble vs say persuade/bluff/intimidate, lore and then a few others that do something mechanically but are so minor its not worth it, even more so if you lack Int so you don't have the skill points to even make it worth it.

Tumble is a key easy example to use, I put 5 points in it, I get AC that AC works on players,monsters and DM events.... persuade, lore...ect wont play a roll most of the time and the few times it could have the chance to... it might do nothing (its all up to the DMs at the time) so I assume many people go for the safe bet and know what your really buying into.

On the flip side of I have noticed over the years DMs have been making stuff harder and harder, in turn more people min-max their builds, so then DMs maker it even harder and the players are capped out they have nothing left to take away from be it skillpoints, class levels, items/slots and magical enchantments.
So lets say we did have a "RP build" they would all get ripped apart by monsters unless they nerfed the monsters but because have a mix of what people will called "Powerbuild" and "RP build" the DMs/devs could never win because you make it hard for the strong people the weaker guy is a joke and dies in no time, or you make it hard for the weaker guy and the strong guy is beating up little kids....

In DM events its a bit more controlled as they are spawning the monsters, can make them change targets so they try and avoid nuking lower levels, weaker people or what ever.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

Hackums has hit on a point I want to reiterate from by initial post.

This is not a "how do we fix this" thread, if it was I'd have posted it in the Improving Amia forums. This is very much a "intellectual examination" thread, a "what if", something to see what other perspectives are on the issue I've raised.

Also, as I've become significantly better at understanding NWN's game mechanics, I think the biggest difference between a good build and a bad build is gear. And that's the one thing that we don't talk all that much about on the build thread, because we don't want to give away In-game secrets in an OOC fashion.

I should also note, though, that I don't see the build thread as that great an enemy. What I see it as, is a group of players who really grasp mechanics take time out of their own playtime to help other players achieve similar ends as what they have, mechanically. What this has done, in some ways, is to increase the general 'cleanliness' of character builds into ways that maximize mechanical efficiency. Which, once we have that all done, would mean that we once again depend upon player skill and RP power. The problem is that not everyone uses the build thread for advice, and that as the build thread gets more popular, the people that don't use it end up becoming more and more disadvantaged.

And, as Glim has pointed out, the more popular need for maximized mechanical efficiency eliminates a player's freedom to dip into RP skills without sacrificing prowess against his peers (And even against the NPC monsters!)
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Also, I'll note that my 'highlighting' to what I believed to be the source of contention doesn't provide any real ways to see it fixed, regretfully.

Thank you for making this post. As someone who has made a character around an 'RP' idea and not a mechanical one, it really strikes home. I see some walking through areas that I would die in a few rounds in. The problem is, everyone wishes to be mechanically powerful (Who dosn't?). However, being mechanically powerful is more straight forward then having a character built for RP.

That power built barb/fighter/weapon master? Oh yea... Go ahead and try to engage him with your character that sacrificed some feats for 'RP flavor'. It just isn't going to happen.

It is the nature of the beast. I have no suggestions to fix it myself, I am not good at that type of thing, but I do look forward to reading what others come up with.

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Silith Rithix- Shifting Coward
Hesk Suhet- Lizardfolk, Red Tribe Shaman

As much as I kind of appreciate the whole food for thought thing, seeing topics like this makes me say... too late. We can only make the best of a flawed situation here, I feel. Changing the very foundation of Amia would necessiate a whole clean slate, something I'm more than certain only a smallish portion of the server could live with. I say this because I remember what happened when Amia went down for two meager weeks.

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Sion of Nimlith
Shadow Disciple

Somthing we have to remeber is that DnD was never really built for this type of platform... It was an RPG, a party based one with minimal 'pvp'. The system isn't really made for 'balance' everyone really has a role in a party.

The problem is that in persistent worlds where you have to grind, the utility of the wizard is lost, and classes with minimal utility but sheer killing power are rewarded.

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Silith Rithix- Shifting Coward
Hesk Suhet- Lizardfolk, Red Tribe Shaman

I'll also say that the way in which our combat works doesn't emphasize RP power over personal mechanical prowess.

Mechanical disparity would not be a problem, if players had to also contend with NPC mobs due to RP power of PC's. For example: Dirk Longstride and the Cordor West Gang of PC's has to be largely self-reliant with builds, mechanics, etc to deal with PC contenders. In order to be successful in mechanical combat, they have to personally be superior. And that's not to trash them at all, please don't misunderstand. I wanted to pick them because I love them to death, and I their example will be fresh in the minds of current players.

So what might happen in a world where RP power was more emphasized than personal character power? You enter West Cordor with a chip on your shoulder, and try to start trouble with Western PC's-- out comes some beefy NPC thugs who break your kneecaps. Why? Because the -character- you were trying to harass has significant RP power in the form of active NPC support. No matter how good your own mechanics may be, you'll very likely be beaten by overwhelming numbers. -As you should-. Because, after all, this target you're facing has significant NPC, RP power.

Do you see what I'm getting at? I'm a powergamer myself, I'll readily admit it (Though I don't think I abuse this!). Some folks can feel mechanically superior against all other players, and what often scares players is that these folks can be right. As people have seen, there are builds and combinations that can put the whoop on a great number of other players. And this is rightfully frustrating, mind. But it would not be nearly as concerning as it is, if players could more readily depend upon NPC mob support due to gained RP power.

Maybe DM's should consider playing a more active role with awarding players this kind of RP power? I'm a great character builder, for example. I wouldn't mind chunking out a few, say, Rangers for Crow to command if conflict arises in the forests, and have them on standby for any DM to spawn a handful in defense of the player.

It would mean we would have to come up with a better faction system for NPC's, which is already in the works if I recall correctly, and it would mean that we'd have to come up with a consistent system for gaining this kind of RP power.

We currently have a very hands-off approach to player PvP. Even a powerful Knight Captain of Kohlingen is generally left to his own in PvP. We don't often give them NPC's unless it's -right- on their home soil.

Maybe this could change? What are your thoughts?

Sure, if a DM isn't on or isn't available, you'll be vulnerable. But maybe we could consider alternative structures as well.


What I'm getting at with all of this, is that if we want to see a change away from personal mechanical efficiency towards RP power, I think DM's need to feel more comfortable awarding RP powerful PC's with the ability to actively command NPC mechanical power.

In this way, RP power vs RP Power is the prime model of contention between characters (Which is ideal), but we maintain mechanics vs mechanics. The RP power we would learn to give isn't simple, non-tangible influence with NPC's, it's actual mechanical power from NPC's.

Of course, there are also players that have sour feelings in their mouths from incidents with NPC's before. But what is absolutely important to remember is that we have a stellar developer, designer, and tester team.

What may seem like something clunky and awful now, has every potential to change with the implementation of new systems.

Does the base idea of awarding RP power with NPC mechanical power resonate with you guys?



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I can even think of a few really cool examples. For instance, you've got a drill master PC who trains his NPC's. Wonderful! We can bump up the AB of the NPC's who would support you based on the level of dedication of the trainer, equipment provided by PC's, etc, etc. The theme is rewarding RP with commandable mechanical power.

Hackums my friend... read

Shhh, I'm on a thought.

Haha. I guess.. I just wanted to explain another personally perceived source of discontinuity, but I felt that if I put: "RP power vs personal mechanical power" it would need some explanation.

I'm not looking for any tangible fixes, these are all abstract ideas to help gauge where the players might be seeing these disparities, you know? I figured that if I explained them in the context of Amia, that we might be able to pinpoint a few sources of contention, and as a playerbase come to generally pick which angle we see as the eventually fixable sources for problems.

So I've put:
- Level caps, the higher they are, the more disparity between player strength.
- Gear, the unspoken truth about character mechanical power
- RP Power being unrewarded with mechanical power.

Oh that's fine. Just seemed like you were moving towards seeing changes made was all. Which isn't what this is about really

Yeah, I got excited.

I'm really not sure how you have such a discussion without noting possible adjustments to be made... I had a ton, but let me see if I can do it Glim's way.

Yes I see a huge disparity between the mechanical of the game and the RP we want to focus on. I would LOVE for my character's abilities to be based on her RP evolution instead of a bunch of numbers and feats I have to choose before I ever even start playing her to figure out who she is. We do have some of that, however; with the learnable/requestable custom skills/spells/and feats.

There, is that what you wanted? <3

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Iim'mur'ss - Grandmaster Shadowdancer / Aaralyn - Diplomat / Oleander - Toxic Desert Flower

But see DMs could already do this, they choose not to for some reason. In fact DMs back in the day used to do that kind of stuff and a number of other neat stuff but stopped.

Back when I used to guard amia forest I had NPC rangers and stuff come to my aid (not that I needed it but it was still nice to see) Caraigh the Asylum guards would wander by as I did a patrols once they even "found" a minor mythal on a patrol and gave it to me.

DMs also used to make unique custom items in events for people to find and in rare cases as rewards from the people you aided (be church/town/city...ect)


So I say if you want to be awarding RP power with NPC mechanical power, do it, your the DM you have the power to do so.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

Oh, it's totally possible. I'm more interested if it's desired, or if others are agreeing that this may be a cause for a disparity between characters (That is, RP not being rewarded in the same way that mechanics are rewarded).

I guess to me, it just feels like a lot of conflict is solved through mechanics. Which will inherently favor the more mechanically inclined, regardless of how much RP control, power, influence, command your character has acquired. At the moment, there are two general conflict lines.

A player can engage in espionage "pvp", which is done somewhat through mechanics, but usually through RP. They are beaten by RP (Such as information spreading, being foiled in their disguise, etc, etc). The other general path of conflict is character on character combat. The problem as I see it is that sometimes these paths collide to negative result.

It's like, for example.. using attribute modifiers against skill checks. The two don't match up. But there may just be a way to make them match up, by blending the two. But that is another topic for another day, and should only really be approached if players are agreeing that this original dilemma (RP Power isn't rewarded with mechanical power) is correct.


RP power currently is wielded by influence, or through the request system (Which is a handy way of acquiring mechanical powers due to dedicated RP). But there are some instances when mechanical combat becomes a thing, and I'm wagering that these RP powerful characters then really get the short stick. And I'm saying-- if we're an RP server, shouldn't the RP powerful characters also be able to influence this as well?

They do so currently only with player factions. Typically, faction warfare and -that- brand of RP power is played out by a character's ability to recruit other players. Which works to an extent, because the original faction leader has extended his mechanical power by the recruitment of PC's and their mechanical power. But not all "Rp Power" positions are player faction positions. Influence with NPC's is gained in a number of ways, and it is my belief that those who engage in that effort are then suffering from a disparity in power to say, a group of PC's who has no NPC command, but overwhelming mechanical prowess.

And I think I can say that (Hopefully without offending anyone), because I've been a part of both powerful mechanical PC groups, and NPC-influential characters.

I am going to preface this statement thus: I have played a lot of Neverwinter Nights. I mean, a lot. I've spent years on Amia (and before, when it was another server). I've spent years on lower level, more "hardcore" role play servers. I have spent years toying with Arena and group combat servers. I have even had my dips and spills in Social servers. That being said, I am here - still playing Amia - because I rather enjoy the way it works.

Admittedly, I believe the server I have enjoyed role playing the most on - albeit in a short period of time - was actually a "Zombie Survival" server. A character level cap of 4, a need to gather resources to both provide sustenance for your character as well as craft necessary utilities for survival, and the constant threat of immediate, irrevocable, and permanent death scratched both my mechanically-inclined itch and my heart-pounding role play itch. However, even with only four levels, there were still the "haves" and the "have nots."

There will always be the person, even with only a single level available to them, who wants to make a more powerful character. There will always be a character who has more free time, and either doesn't mind or even enjoys grinding -- be it for epic lootz or bread and water. There will always be the person who has a faster computer, a better mouse, a broader working knowledge of the game's mechanics, faster reflexes. Someone, no matter what, will always be better than you. That isn't just in Neverwinter Nights, mind -- that is in the real, living world. It simply applies here no differently.

I, like Hackums, am an admitted - and proud, even - "power gamer." Now, I use that word tentatively because it is really, more often than not, derogatory. Even in my Pen and Paper games I am a "power gamer;" however, there, my role play group calls me a "challenger." I craft characters who are challenging, to both the Dungeon Master as well as the other characters in my party. In a collaborative system, like PnP, my team loves it. The Alchemist and Inquisitor don't mind that I can kill the Balor with a single Smite Evil Critical at level six -- we're all on the same team. On Amia, however, our characters are not decidedly collaborators from the start point. In fact, almost all of our role play centers around conflict, be it between Non-Player Characters and Player Characters, or between Player Characters and other Player Characters. Sometimes this conflict manifests in physical contest. Realistically, someone has to lose. That is how the world functions. I'd like to think that everyone who plays Amia has that common sense understanding:

This game, just like life, is filled to the brim with conflict; and where conflict arises, someone must lose.

Now, when it comes to playing a game like Amia we understand this. However, too often that conflict is focused upon the physical, player to player interaction. Why? Does no one realize that the most powerful characters on the server tend to not be the most mechanically powerful, but the most established in leadership positions (Avadon of Wiltun and Ulrik Valis come to mind); or, perhaps, that the most influential and capable characters are more often savvy merchants that rule the player based economy more so than they rule the field of player versus player combat (Copper Industries and, before that, Amia Trade Federation come to mind)?

Amia in the current day and age rarely sees player versus player combat -- relative, mind you, to what it has been in the past. However, the stigma is still there to build a character and shirk the "fluff" of skills like Persuade, Bluff, Appraise, or even Craft Armor or Craft Weapons. What has caused this? I believe, having the fortunate vantage of someone who has watched Amia grow and mature over somewhere around a decade, I may know.

- As a general rule, we require our players to possess a measure of genuine attribute and skill when it comes to mental, social interaction with both Non-Player Characters and Players.

- As Hackums has said, rarely does Player interaction with Non-Player Characters give rise to genuine, proven mechanical strength.

- We, as human beings, don't like the way it feels when we lose; so we try to figure out how to prevent that -- and, in the process, forget that somebody has to lose or it isn't a game, or even realistic, any more.

To expound upon the first point, note this: if a player logs on and builds a level 30 Wizard with 44 intelligence, yet is not clever, cannot spell properly, has no understanding of grammar, and generally comes across as "unintelligent" - in spite of what his best efforts may be - then he is not given credence for his massive mechanical intellect. There's a good reason for this. Just because a player walks up to me, picks my pocket, and when caught and asked rolls a 115 Bluff Check does not mean his actual bluff (which might be him saying something inane, like "Chicken Salad, sir!") held any merit. A lie has to be a good one to deserve the roll behind it on Amia -- even with Non-Player Characters, who are the only creatures actually ever forced to contest such skills. This leads many characters to very nearly ignore their non-physical attributes and non-mechanically beneficent skills. And why not? Their Bluff doesn't make them a good liar; and if they're a good liar, they don't need Bluff. Having 52 Charisma won't make you more likable or socially powerful than Wiltun's First Knight, nor will having 38 Wisdom make your advise any more poignant or listened-to than Ahsra's stoic philosophical meanderings. Is this the right way to go about things? In my opinion, yes, but with a caveat -- one that I will address along with the next point...

If I am genuinely clever, charismatic, or wise as a player, have a character who is engineered to emulate these facets of my person mechanically, and have invested in skill points purely for interaction with NPCs, yet am never afforded reward for such a character, I will be disheartened - if not jaded - with the way my "realistic" fantasy setting operates. Do I need to be a good liar even if I have 33 ranks invested in Bluff? Yes -- absolutely. But, more importantly, should I get the chance to lie and get something for it? Oh, yes. You see, that character who took Skill Focus and Epic Skill Focus Persuade alongside Epic Reputation may not be able to solo-run the bosses of Amia to acquire epic loot. But, at least in my mind, he should definitely be in a position to acquire as good, if not better, resources from the NPCs he was designed to manipulate. We need to focus on rewarding players for their character's strengths (if they have any, of course -- and there are characters built which have no strengths). And, as Hackums said, ideally the benefit of having intense mental or social power is not physical prowess, but being able to make use of other people's physical prowess. That's why brilliant and innovative people change the world more often than potent athletes.

Finally, we need to stop and come to an understanding. Character building is beautiful -- it's a glorious process that involves painting a picture. The more levels, skills, and feats available to you, the more intricate and detailed a portrait you can paint. I love Neverwinter Nights - and Amia - specifically because it isn't what Glim has suggested: a series of pre-set build archetypes which have obvious, nigh-mandated skill and ability progressions. This is the boring, limited-variable math that makes it impossible for me to play any MMORPG. The more variables, the less clear cut and dry what is "best," "strongest," "superior;" because with more room to work, we can make genuinely powerful characters who also have ranks in Persuade and Lore. The problem - which exists, I agree - is not with the characters and their builds; but, rather, with the emphasis of rewards leaning heavily toward those with more martial ability (at times -- please, do recall the references I made earlier to powerful characters who would very possibly be chewed up and spit out if they were ever caught in solitary combat [with no offense intended in such an assessment, of course]). Furthermore, we also have a player base of human beings; and, notoriously, human beings hate to lose. When we lose we try to figure out how to never do that again. Some of us choose to learn how to build (as I did), and then employ said knowledge. Some of us discern our strengths and play to them -- like our ability to manipulate social interactions, or with frugal and cunning proprietorship make unimaginable wealth. However, some of us choose to demand that what it was that beat us be changed, removed, diminished because, instead of adapting or overcoming, we would rather the challenge to simply stop existing -- to stop losing simply because we don't like it and that's enough.

That is not the way to handle this issue.

Thus, in summary (for those of you who don't want to read a small novel):

- Enhancing the reward for players who are less martially-inclined,
- Instating a real and costly wound, healing, and mortality system,
- Accepting that loss, in any conflict, is inevitable and that someone, somewhere will beat you at some point...

... is how to address this idea from an intellectual and critical standpoint, in my opinion. Does this put a lot of pressure on the DMs? Absolutely. However, the nice thing is that to "fix" the problem, we would only have to ask one thing of our developers: to implement a better system of mortality (which is already underway). Everything else is simply a shift in perspective and action, on both the player's and the Dungeon Master's part.

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"I will never refuse a challenge from an equal. I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest."

I'd like to add, as a small addendum: while I tend to build powerful characters, I always build them toward a specific character concept. That forces me to emulate an abstract idea with concrete pre-set items. Even so, I enjoy such a challenge; and, if any of the players who know how I craft my characters wish to attest, I enjoy the challenge of making a character who is both martially talented and socially potent (up to and including higher social scores than optimal and the investment of "frivolous" skill ranks). So, while I am an admitted "power gamer," I am not against or asympathetic toward "role play builds." I actually believe the two can be one and the same.

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"I will never refuse a challenge from an equal. I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest."

Well-worded and comprehensive, Righteous Anger.

Your assessment on social skills is something I agree with, and it also gave me another idea. Most players don't pick up bluff, persuade, intimidate, etc because in most cases it cannot be useful against other players, correct? The player instead chooses things that can be mechanically beneficial, and relies on his or her own 'social prowess' in dealing with NPC's and PC's. The fact of the matter is that we very rarely punish players who deal with NPC's for not having social skills, and we only really reward them for having them (But that reward isn't always so great). So for most folks, they can be mechanically sound in combat while also being influential with NPC's without having any of the social skills.

One solution seems kind of obvious, and ties back to my initial idea. If players don't want to choose social skills because it only affects NPC's, isn't the logical conclusion to then have those affected NPC's actually (Mechanically and otherwise) affect other PC's? So, sure, I may not be able to use my persuade skill directly against another player. But I can use it to gather a following of guards, to work my way up the social ladder, and then I can happily persuade these guards to kick your arse.

It would then be an indirect translation in which social skills do in fact affect other PC's. Brilliant! (Of course, Glim's dragging his hand over his face. I knooow, I knooow!)

So, before this turns into talk about fixing, I'm going to re-twist my above idea into a question: Do you think that the separation of NPC's and PC's, in both physical conflict, influence, etc, is at part to blame for this disparity between mechanical efficiency and RP social skills?

Gonna highlight this for emphasis. Currently, social builds are unsupported potential power, because their current power (Affecting NPC's) has no current, tangible effect on PC's. The only real way to affect PC's at the moment is by mechanical efficiency. Change that, and man, you change the whole friggin' game.

I don't know how to address this Glim's way, but let me start off with this- After thinking about how rp can be improved on Amia, I think the biggest 'problem' is the non-pvp areas that ruin a lot of rp because a DM has to tend to the NPCs around an area of conflict. A bully half-orc character can't start a fight in the middle of a city without DM around. Ultimately, the character can't fully be the character it is half the time because DMs are busy elsewhere. Ideally, there would be more players on Amia, and more DMs that be scheduled to oversee an area of Amia so that there are always DMs there to use NPCs to interact with player characters. The truth is, we don't have enough people to man those stations.

The point here is that Amia can't be an ideal place to satisfy all our needs, but it's pretty great still.

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It's kind of an interesting case study. I've always been on a similar mindset, Murex, regarding the Non-PvP areas, but I wanted to see how it impacts player travel and RP in areas. There are some areas who are changing it to make it so that PvP requires DM supervision, and in other areas players have changed it so that it is open to such conflict.

In Cordor West, we've seen a rise of player activity when the risk increased. The area that's transitioning into a non-PvP one hasn't yet finished, so we don't know exactly how it will be received.

It's definitely something we're watching and observing.

I work in the field of children's orthotics. At my work I'm the relatively new guy, and I'm pretty keen on being very accurate when I do what I do. But not everyone is as interested in accuracy as I am - most of them do a slap-bang job that makes me wince every time I have to review their work. It's bad enough that I bring it up to my superiors every time I see it. But to my chagrin, our accuracy rating is about 99%. It is apparent that not only is it not a big deal that I'm so accurate, but that the kids are enthusiastically approving of what I would consider to be a half-assed orthotic, which really rustles my jimmies (and allows me to breathe a small sigh of relief, I suppose).

Amia is like that. I don't mean to offend, but you've got your try hards with their walls of emote text and your people who just think this is a fun game who only pause to write things OOC. And every shade in between. But somehow, through natural evolution and selection, what you have in front of you is basically what the people want. I don't mean the outspoken individual, I don't mean the quietly jaded, I mean on average, this pile of wires and jumbled parts is what the people want. If it wasn't, they wouldn't be here. They wouldn't be playing, they wouldn't be coming back as if it was some kind of tonic for their lives.

And new ideas, ones like Righteous and Hackums and others have proposed in this thread (what did you expect, Glim! haha), not to mention the history of changes that have happened over the years, are not radical changes that will cause countless new players to flock to Amia. They're tiny tweaks (requiring billions of hours of work, don't think I don't respect you guys), not remotely equivocal to the constant mutation required to stay competitive in, say, a capitalist industry.

There's not really competition in this field. It's a monopoly. People are working within its confines to find enjoyment their own way, like you would in real life. The only thing we all have in common, the only thing that makes us all happy, is that none of us are entirely content.

So don't worry, keep doing whatever you're doing, keep making little tweaks like what Righteous and Hackums cooked up over there like hobos camping out in the last car (they did sound like good ideas).

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Mathus, Void Apostle of the New Moon

+1 to what CouncilofAutumn wrote. Well said.

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Very good points. And yeah, I know it's impossible to "debate" this without at least asking questions, and that's fine. I just wanted to make it clear that if you do ask questions, don't expect anything to be actually changed from what comes out of this thread. It's merely a discussion for interests' sake.

I've been punished for not having social skills before (and not having job points in things, even)! Yossarin and Kobra are two DMs who especially used social skills in events with me, and I didn't mind. I assume when it's a skill you're low in, they take consideration on your roll-- and if you're very high, they take consideration on how much of an investment that is. Similarly to how a DM plans out mobs for lowbies vs. epics. And neither of them require it for every lie Sam tells (thank god) because bluffing is about implausibility. If your lie is plausible to someone, it shouldn't always need a bluff (unless you're in Tark and The Voice is watching I suppose)...

That said, I would love for social skills to be more mechanically active in the server. I think they're awesome and people who invest in them deserve to see a reward!

One of the clear indicators we are not playing a game designed mechanically to support a roleplay persistent world for me is the level cap. Taking my main character as an example, he stopped evolving mechanically over three years ago. Mechanically the glass is filled. Any knowledge you want to pour into it will either spill out, or force other parts of the liquid out.

He might have learned a great deal about the abyss, specifically the lore regarding Orcus, but mechanically he did not. He did not gain any ranks in lore. Even if I cared to put skill points in it, it would need to be a rebuild for which he loses ranks in a skill like discipline. Makes little sense for his character development. Now, I can as a player assume he knows what he learned. But then somehow I am cheating. Not unlike if someone plays a charismatic character with eight charisma on his character sheet. I am not playing the character sheet, because I am assuming he has lore when there are actually zero ranks in it. Do I care I am cheating with skills? Not really. Would I cheat with attributes? Nope, as they are more static imo. Is that a bit abitrary? Yeah, a bit.

My idea would be, every month you get two points skills. That allows for a character to continue to evolve. That in addition of actually adding a lot of different new skills, such as knowledge: planes, history, demonology, noble ettiquette, language: ______, etc. That for me would be one way how to begin to break the restrictions of NWN not being made for PW. In addition, DMs would be able to award points in these skills for rp and plot participation. Your character was part of the Caraigh event of investigating the cult of Orcus? +2 "Knoweledge: Demonology". And of course, ranks begin to cost more for monthly skill points. 10+ cost 2, 20+ 4 points, 30+ 6 points, 40 +10 points etc. Very important is that DMs then actually enforce you know what you know, because you will not have an excuse not to. Got no "knowledge: history"? Do not expect your character to know about the details of the Netherse Empire.

What about feats? Standard accessable feats should possible to use untrained. Why can my wizard not even try to grasp a bastard sword in his hand? You want to try to disarm someone or try to knock your opponent on his back? Why the heck can my melee focused character not try? Slap on a -10 for untrained, and it looks good to me. I'd even say we should toss in one additional feat every year.

Now Pony, what about the game balancing being upset in favor of older characters? I do not care. I never found it important that all characters are balanced equally, because it makes sense to me they are not. As long as classes have the ability of being in eachother's ballpark, I am fine with it. It is the reason I do not care the least if someone build a stronger character than mine or a weaker one. As long as it does not break the lore, and they play the character they created, it is good for me. It is also why I do not care about the discrapency between 'power builds' and what ever you want to call other builds. I do not think if I make an oghmyte loremaster, he has to be able to stand his ground against the Patriarch of the Church of Bane. I find it worse if he could. I love that Darthion or Tazul were scary opponents, but that Joon or my Tiefling Thief are as powerful as a wet towel in combat.

Measuring classes and characters only in their combative abilities is also something I think has no place on a PW. Classes grant unique benefits that open advantages in a whole spectrum of storylines. Be it the possibility of being a person of influence as a cleric because of your representation of a god, knowing thief cant as a rogue or using other gitty skills to screw someone over by sneaking into their home and leaving something to frame them. Having access to information that can do more to protect your city than 5 powerbuild guards by investing tons of ranks in lore on your ogmyte loremaster. Being able to protect your people from a talonite plague, because you put everything in heal oriented feats and skills, while the powerbuild warrior next to you can only dwiddle his thumbs.

While obviously all these "non-suggestion suggestions" to illustrate my view are pulled out of my nose, I think they do so well. If we were looking for mechanical changes, the stuff above would need to be fiddled around a lot more. I also hate the idea of build packages that Glim spoke about in his first post. That sentiment goes directly against what I feel a Persistent World should be.

There's a lot of good reading here.

I like where you're going Pony




I would have to say yes, that it is part of the separation. So many times I would have liked for NPC assistance, in situations where Crow would have gotten the assistance, given his position in either the Grove or Bendir. I know DM's can't be everywhere all the time, and it's a great thing, when they have the time for NPC possession...especially the random ones that take you by surprise! Skills is a big part of D&D and role-play, people invest in them to make their characters unique, and stand out in their field. There should be a reward for investors, and there is, when others seek them out for what they are good at.

Given the chance, I would rework Crow's skill points to reflect what he is like now. He has learned a lot of things, from people who know their shit. Ask any Kenlyl or Malandria or Adela, they can tell you his progression from shy naive street rat, to Ranger Captain. That's some accomplishment, to me, that took years to do. I'm proud of where Crow is, and I finally got him looking fairly cool too I was actually planning another rebuild to tweak what he's evolved into, which included a Skill rework as well. I like the idea of additional Skill Points for Max characters, I would most certainly use them for RP purposes.

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Yeah that has bugged me and I made a thread in the past asking for ideas on what I could do with all the extra EXP that's doing nothing... more job system skill points, any ideas really and the notion was they were worthless. I myself stopped evolving mechanically 7 years or so ago and on top of it I have had zero alts

I have never liked the fact that someone who spends time working and improving/investing time in a single person is limited by the level cap, someone like myself who might have near 10,000 hours is as progressed mechanically as the person who power leveled a alt to 30 in 50 hours. "yeah you have invested around 200 times as much as they have.....but you have to be on par with them" and that in my mind is why alts are big thing... you have limited reasons to remain invested/playing a person in the slow/bad times because you have nothing to gain.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

The possibility we had previously, that allowed at least some progress in the character's evolution, were the dream coin requested custom ability and spells. Of course these benefited certain classes far more than others. For the base classes, these were wizards, bards, clerics, and druids. Besides needing to be mechanically balanced, for these classes there was so much potential for the players creativity. Where as fighters, paladins, rangers, monks, rogues and barbarians did not have nearly as much potential, and sorcerers being somewhere in the middle for needing to trade old spells for new spells. That this went through the dream coin system was a big upside, as it rewarded exactly what we place the focus on here. Namely roleplay.

The problem is we simply do not have the scripting personell for these custom scripted spells and abilities, to the extend our scripter(s) are already overburdened with the module related content. There are some good ideas on how to bring back more custom dc abilities, primarily being pre-scripted content like the Monkey Grip widget with a fixed prices. Important for that of course is that all class types have the prospect of purchasing future custom content, not just the classes for which it is easy to do. In my opinion, we should simply make the majority of the previously scripted abilities and spells open for requests. Tack on a nice dream coin cost, and roleplay requirements like for Monkey Grip, and voila.

Bards could request the custom song that I drafted for Arion, where woodland critters sorround the character. Mages could possibly get the exalted spells Tuomas uses or the Ice Wall spell of Christian, arcane-crafters could get the Corinn-Potion widget, shifters the abilities Cory does, etc, etc. We should certainly have enough neat stuff from the previous years that work well for it. Even if these are available for new characters, these take time to get and encourage more investment into a single character, which should cut down the alt problem a little. It could encourage players of older characters to keep playing more enthusiastically, as their character can continue to evolve or even train others. Encourage more master-student type rp for mage academies and the like is a great thing. "But I developed the spell!" Well, so did Bigby with Grasping Hand. And you use that, and a lot of others of his as well.


So I feel that we have possibilities to help make a continued evolution of character's on Amia more available again. And who knows, if someone of the community learns to script and helps out Glim with it, there would be even more options. The language system of Terra's, for which you have the possibility to request languages is also an example of something that allows the character to continue to evolve. And it shows, it must not always give a mechanical advantage.

If I want restricted character build options and pure mechanics numbercrunchey goodness I'll go play WoW. I play NWN exactly because of the broad freedom to design a character in a way that's both very customizable while at the same time ending up with a very unique product that then becomes my own through the course of RP.

Let's take the two ends of the character creation spectrum, from zero freedom (referred to here as the "Fighting Game" archetype) to complete freedom (the "Bethesda" archetype). NWN falls very, very far towards the Bethesda end of that scale but reins itself in before the point where every character can become awesome at everything; there's simply too many choices in a system which inherently limits those choices with a level cap. What you're proposing sounds like you're asking to move us way, way over to the Fighting Game archetype, where you pick what you want and get little to no choice about the variables that make your character what it is. If that's the case, I'll have none of it.

There are much simpler and more practical changes, including such simple things as "change the 2da files to make the Recommended button non-useless", but like you said this is less about ideas than it is about a "what if" scenario. From my perspective, this sounds like a talk about potentially gutting the very thing that drew me to NWN in the first place.

Not only that, but I've found that these characters tend to carry far more "PvP" power (in the sense Hackums describes it) than the fly-by-night 30 gank-groups that pop up now and then; a well-established character can often bring a small army of vengeful PCs to bear on pretty much any problem. I think this in and of itself does a huge amount to mitigate the negative impact of the "have" and "have-not" relationship described here. The mechanics game is bigger than an individual character; I've seen a well-built team go in and decimate a server. Here, we have enough weight of players and skilled builders who are actually decent people that that sort of thing never gets to a point where it's actively harming the server. RP, then, serves as a sort of check-and-balance system to bring the community to bear against people using mechanical power for destructive ends (as it rightly should).

I concur, Amia doesn't have an impossible-to-reach endgame. Frankly, and as much as I hate to admit this, one of our real power disparities lies in allowances for custom scripting. Aside from that, I really don't see a huge power disparity between 30s in terms of gear or potential abilities (the build underlying it makes a difference, of course). Even then, the people who get custom work are almost universally good and conscientious people who don't use their power destructively. It sort of feels like a lot of this 'concern' isn't grounded on much other than the perceived unfairness of a perceived disparity. As a great man once said, "Cows go "moo," dogs go "woof," MMO players go "the PvP is unbalanced"".

Mechanically feasible. I think you might have a legitimate revolt on your hands from the players, though.

The very nature of the thread demands at least some 'solution' be put forth if we are to present another perspective and have it seriously be taken as viable. Aspirational language is the bane of progress. As such, I hope you'll forgive me for a few suggestions here and there, though I'll try to limit it to broad concepts rather than nuts-and-bolts mechanics.

I half agree. See my point above as to mechanical arguments applied through the lens of RP power to bring multiple PCs to bear. Buuuut...

This is the other side of the coin, and one that can't be easily fixed without some serious contemplation and heavy scripting. Frankly it'd be great if a privilege of rank was a personal NPC bodyguard or three, or some system that handles NPC guard responses within cities for at least the PC officials. This is one of the diamonds in the rough of this thread and should be examined closely for ideas.

True. I've got the sheets for a powerbuilt level 2 child. Mechanical adjustments to the frontend (I.E. the directly accessible character creation nuts and bolts) will do nearly nothing to deter or diffuse the disparity between characters, especially the ones who can and do blend RP and mechanical power effectively. While I agree with the concept that RP power doesn't always translate to mechanical power, I think any adjustments are going to have to take place on the "back end". To make an analogy, you would be better off changing the road the cars drive on than trying to change the cars.

More or less. As many people note, RP power does translate fairly well into mechanical power by dint of mob justice. There's a skew, sure, but its perception is inherently tied to the timescale you use in your frame of reference. While a mechanical powerhouse will win fights and may go on to be a long-running feared player among the playerbase, he can't just mow down the field because he'll get Zerged before he can say 'minmaxed'. Where I see martial power creating a heavy skew is in combat-oriented DM events, mostly because DMs have to scale up to the powerbuilders or else there won't really be any threat to the group. Even then, this is most heavily apparent with PvE powerbuilds; PvP powerbuilds are rarely if ever true PvE colossi, as they're focused on winning in the short-but-lethal combat that characterizes most PvP. On the other hand, I've seen some melee PvE builds that can chew up monsters for ages and seem to give DMs fits to balance encounters around.

This is a dangerous road to hoe in my opinion, as you subject more and more of the interaction to what the DM thinks the players should have. Even if it were myself in the DM seat I would be hesitant to trust that kind of discretion to a DM simply because it's far too easy to fall into traps formed of preconceived notions based on how you originally envision players solving your encounters; to whit: I design an encounter for PCs, and I decide that if they like they can try to persuade their way to a better outcome, which will have lasting effects down the road. It would be very easy for me to decide that Persuade or Intimidate is the roll for this and to readily dismiss other attempts at solving the problem; the worst part is I may not even be conscious of the dismissal of other methods, or I may not give them much regard as they seem silly to me (and DMs don't really have time to hear out everyone's reasoning on their solutions at times). This works out under the current system, but if DMs really start to 'punish' people for not having social skills you're going to be inviting a whole mess of headaches and potential complaints. I would much rather see a 'carrot' than a 'stick' approach, and believe it would be far more motivational to players to up DM rewards for good RP skill interactions.

On that note, I want to commend BoB for taking the initiative to begin designing more interesting and fun loot for events; there's a huge amount of motivation and satisfaction involved when the item you get your mitts on is unique, to hell with its mechanical abilities. This has really been a positive shift in getting players interested and involved, and I think the principle should be applied here.

This would be great, actually. I'm glad you even mentioned my widget, because that's more or less what I've been hoping to turn it into all along (and you can see my RP progressing in that direction). But this is sort of getting off into the potential for future character growth; to tie it back into RP and power disparity, I'd be quite happy to see these kind of "a la carte" premade requestables, which would both free up scripting time (hopefully) and provide a platform for developers to introduce new requestables that, say, pull numbers from the soft skills to work. Thus, this idea does have a great seed of potential in it which could resolve a number of our present woes.

My final thought: NWN as a platform is unique. Its character creation is robust and produces a cornucopia of unique character designs. I believe you have a great opportunity to enhance it and concurrently direct its growth in a manner that will at least partly ameliorate the issues described here. There isn't an insurmountable mountain between the 'haves' and 'have-nots', but there should be a careful distinction drawn between people who make character builds based around RP rather than mechanics versus those who simply can't build, refuse to learn, and are bitching until someone gives in. The former you can help, the latter you can't; no matter what you do they'll still be in the same position afterwards, still blaming someone else for their woes. Please be very careful with whatever changes you do decide will come out of this.

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~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear.
~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt.
~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.

That's a hell of a post, Eurgiga, and I agree with most of it, but specifically the point about RP power trumping mechanical power. I've said for years that the strongest character on the server, bar none, was Alitha Melie Blake, played by Oarthias. A non-Dragonshape pure Druid before Earthquake got awesome ie not good mechanically, but what she did have was a kennel full of spectacularly lethal attack dogs played by mechanically minded folk who really liked her RP.

Because of her position in the RP world, lots of people messed with her. Because of her attack dogs, they only ever messed with her once.

Yeah I see the scaling thing a lot in regard to DM events lot, where I have outright told me they are spawning more stuff because I'm there.

And I'm torn on that, I do understand the point of if they don't scale it up it can be very easy and wont be a real threat to the group.... but then look at it from say my point of view I spend time to get stronger to better combat the threats, then they outright negate it with the compensation of stronger/increase numbers making my RP and efforts near pointless and then in turn have to focus more time and effort to get even stronger assuming you are not at the DMs OOC balance cap.

So I would say that mechanical power in events does not mean a lot to some DMs as they will just make it not matter, in fact sometimes being strong mechanically makes it worse for the group because they scaled it up to you and your party is not as strong and because of you, they all got killed.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

You're either a hardcore RP-server, or you're not. You can't be both, which is pretty much exactly what Amia has always attempted. The middle line just doesn't work that well in NWN, as you try to please everyone without alienating som of the few.

Amia has historically attracted a broad audience of NWN players due to its free, fair and relatively open minded spirit.

I've had long discussions in the past with both Nekhbet and Yossarin (among others), in regards to the impossibility of pleasing everyone and being both black and white at the same time.

Amia has still managed to work out very well throughout the years, but it has done so at the cost of a lot of strain, burnt out DMs and raging drama between sides of opposite beliefs and desired playing styles.

These dilemmas: powerbuilds vs rp-builds, capture the flag-style RTS inspired PvP vs relationship focused tree hugging, number crunching vs story writing, action packed monster-infested areas vs festival grounds and interactive taverns for dialogue intense dramas...

... those dilemmas were constantly present and re-occuring during those years I played, and I imagine that they still are to this day, and will continue to be in the future.

That is; unless Amia takes a clear stand and decides on one out of many roads to take, and no longer tries to cater to all, while still holding onto everyone regardless of how opposing their differences May be.


- My 2 cents as a former dedicated player on Amia, powerbuilder, hardcore role-player, designer and contemplator.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

This has bothered me quite a bit too if I think about it. As long as there's a cap in mechanic power between the players I feel like there will never really be any scary villain, or a powerful hero. Of course there's exceptions with some people getting more powerful by their influences directly or indirectly, but for that you need more than dedication to your character (at least in my experience).

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

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NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/other/tool/characterbuildcalculator-nwn2-cbc2

That's already being addressed, Svensk. Don't worry. It's being managed!

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Abernathy Hearthart, Salandran Healer (similar to my avatar picture of the lovely Jordan Madley )
Azorgl da Mercenary, Cigar toting Ogre...hero?

I'm not as seasoned as some of the people posting on this thread but I feel as though ive been around enough to build up an opinion. Heh.

I do understand that Amia is based around freedom of choice but people get bored. Once you reach 30 and you have good gear and a good build, there is no challenge anymore. No real reason to continue on with improvement. Your character is practically a demi god at 30. I don't care how many years youve played a character, that is unrealistic. Make leveling harder. Make enchanted gear and gold hard to come by. Give people real mechanical advantage for RP skills and/or allow RP skills to accumalate xp and gold. For example... if you have an intimidation skill of 30, then orcs and goblins probably won't attack you. Youll just be able to chase them down and slaughter them like pigs. If your persuasion is high, you could even convince them to turn on one another. When you reach a high enough skill you could even gain unique feats that can aid you in combat and RP alike! Same would go with pvp but instead of forcing the character to run in fear because of a high intimidation, the opposing pc instead gets a debuff.

(If you have a level 4 character and he has 4 points in intimidate, then you have a small chance of making 1 or more rats/goblins/etc run away or stop attacking. Spot could correlate with reflex and add a bonus to AC vs creatures and players of the same level. Craft weapon and armor could add a strength bonus from endless hours in the forge. Persuasion could add a new spell or widget that you can use on same level creatures or lower that gives them a chance to fight for you and follow you for awhile. You could go on and on. Discipline could even add a very very small xp bonus per kill. )

Edit- ive also been on servers to where the more you type in dialogue, the more xp you get. I'm not sure how they did it but if I spent a couple hours talking my butt off I would automatically get some xp. It discouraged constant grinding and encouraged RPing.

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Jorn Wesson
Tuarr
Zok

Bench press - 845x2.. oh wait wrong forum

I have read this response a few times over, now, since it was posted; and I have to say that, even stepping back and attempting to approach it from a different vantage and with logical appraisal, this still seems more like an underhanded jab at a play style more so than a method of intelligently approaching a current issue. You create a very obvious black and white line between "your" server (that being a server focused on role play) and "powerbuilders" (who, clearly, don't belong there). You seem to be under the impression that a "powerbuilt" character cannot "role play," or that somehow their role play is invalidated by their mechanical prowess, and as such, they do not belong on Amia -- "your server." And, as such, the way to answer the question Glim posited is simple: punish the people that don't belong -- those being the bad people who "powerbuild."

While I find such a line of reasoning curious, I'm not certain that insulting a portion of the player base (even if it's subtle) is the way to go about bringing positive change. I won't respond to you in this thread because it would derail the discussion at hand, but I would invite you to take a step back and consider your current stance from a different perspective.

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"I will never refuse a challenge from an equal. I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest."

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Abernathy Hearthart, Salandran Healer (similar to my avatar picture of the lovely Jordan Madley )
Azorgl da Mercenary, Cigar toting Ogre...hero?

The mechanical aspects of this game should be enjoyed as much as the ability to interact with other player characters. I powerbuild and I role-play only with one other player most of the time. This is how I like to play, and I don't think I should be punished for it. If anyone wants to exclude more players from Amia, then the server will loose too many players.

Also, players with only a couple hours a day to play versus someone who can put in 8+ hours a day play differently, so you can't really get around there being different types of players.

As far as progression beyond the level cap- I think the Dream Coin system works well enough.

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