I saw there was a script for it in the Vault and had used it on a different server a long long time ago.

Would that fall into something for a hak or would that be an individual spell and a DC request?

I did see that there was a hold on scripting somewhere, since the script is already completed would this fall under that category anyway?

If so, please disregard.



Detect Evil
School: Divination
Innate Level: 1
Range: 60 ft.
Duration: 3 rounds, if caster is concentrating and not moving (not as in 3E PHB)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends
on how long you study a particular area or subject:
1st Round: Presence or absence of evil.
2nd Round: Number of evil auras (creatures) in the area and the strength of
the strongest evil aura present. If you are of good alignment, the
strongest evil aura's strength is "overwhelming" (see below), and
the strength is at least twice your character level, you are
stunned for 1 round and the spell ends. While you are stunned, you
can't act, you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC, and attackers gain
+2 bonuses to attack you.
3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. (Absolute position)
Aura Strength: An aura's evil power and strength depend on the type of evil
creature that you're detecting and its HD, caster level, or
(in the case of a cleric) class level.

Creature/Object Evil Power
Evil creature HD/5
Undead creature HD/2
Evil elemental HD/2
Evil outsider HD
Cleric of an evil deity Level

Evil Power Aura Strength
1 or less Faint
2 - 4 Moderate
5 - 10 Strong
11+ Overwhelming


/*
Script modified by Ceros.
September 8, 2002
*/
int AuraStrength(object oEvil)
{
int iLv1 = GetLevelByPosition(1,oEvil);
int iLv2 = GetLevelByPosition(2,oEvil);
int iLv3 = GetLevelByPosition(3,oEvil);
int iLevel = iLv1 + iLv2 + iLv3;
int iCl1 = GetClassByPosition(1,oEvil);
int iCl2 = GetClassByPosition(2,oEvil);
int iCl3 = GetClassByPosition(3,oEvil);
int iAlignGE = GetAlignmentGoodEvil(oEvil);
int iRace = GetRacialType(oEvil);
int iHD = GetHitDice(oEvil);
int iEvilPower;
if (iRace == RACIAL_TYPE_UNDEAD && iAlignGE == ALIGNMENT_EVIL)
{
iEvilPower = iHD / 2;
}
else if (iRace == RACIAL_TYPE_ELEMENTAL && iAlignGE == ALIGNMENT_EVIL)
{
iEvilPower = iHD / 2;
}
else if (iRace == RACIAL_TYPE_OUTSIDER && iAlignGE == ALIGNMENT_EVIL)
{
iEvilPower = iHD;
}
else if ((iCl1 == CLASS_TYPE_CLERIC || iCl2 == CLASS_TYPE_CLERIC ||
iCl3 == CLASS_TYPE_CLERIC) && iAlignGE == ALIGNMENT_EVIL &&
GetDeity(oEvil) != "")
{
iEvilPower = iLevel;
}
else iEvilPower = iHD / 5;
return iEvilPower;
}
//Return a string describing the strength of the evil
string AuraPower(int iEvilPower)
{
if (iEvilPower <= 1)
{
return "Faint";
}
else if (iEvilPower >= 2 && iEvilPower <= 4)
{
return "Moderate";
}
else if (iEvilPower >= 5 && iEvilPower <= 10)
{
return "Strong";
}
else if (iEvilPower >= 11)
{
return "Overwhelming";
}
return "";
}
/*
Author: Big E
Date: July 20, 2002
Given the facing value (0-360), set the compass direction and diplay
the loction and distance of the evil.
*/
void GetDirection(float fFacing,object oCaster,object oCreature, float nDistance)
{
//Correct the bug in GetFacing (Thanks Iskander)
if (fFacing >= 360.0)
fFacing = 720.0 - fFacing;
if (fFacing < 0.0)
fFacing += (360.0);
int iFacing = FloatToInt(fFacing);
/*
359 - 2 = E
3 - 45 = NEE
46 - 87 = NNE
88 - 92 = N
93 - 135 = NNW
136 - 177 = NWW
178 - 182 = W
183 - 225 = SWW
226 - 267 = SSW
268 - 272 = S
273 - 315 = SSE
316 - 358 = SEE
*/
string sDirection = "";
if((iFacing >= 359) && (iFacing <= 2))
sDirection = "E";
if((iFacing >= 3) && (iFacing <= 45))
sDirection = "NEE";
if((iFacing >= 46) && (iFacing <= 87))
sDirection = "NNE";
if((iFacing >= 88) && (iFacing <= 92))
sDirection = "N";
if((iFacing >= 93) && (iFacing <= 135))
sDirection = "NNW";
if((iFacing >= 136) && (iFacing <= 177))
sDirection = "NWW";
if((iFacing >= 178) && (iFacing <= 182))
sDirection = "W";
if((iFacing >= 183) && (iFacing <= 225))
sDirection = "SWW";
if((iFacing >= 226) && (iFacing <= 267))
sDirection = "SSW";
if((iFacing >= 268) && (iFacing <= 272))
sDirection = "S";
if((iFacing >= 273) && (iFacing <= 315))
sDirection = "SSE";
if((iFacing >= 316) && (iFacing <= 358))
sDirection = "SEE";
string sDistance = IntToString(FloatToInt(nDistance));
//Evil Power
string sEvil = AuraPower(AuraStrength(oCreature));
SendMessageToPC(oCaster, sEvil + " evil detected about " + sDistance + " metres to the " + sDirection);
}
//Author: Big E
//Date: July 20, 2002
object GetNearest(object oCaster, int iCount)
{
return GetNearestObjectToLocation(OBJECT_TYPE_CREATURE,GetLocation(oCaster),iCount);
}
//Author Big E
//Date: July 20, 2002
//Insert you meathod of alignment hiding here.
//Return True if creature's alignment is hidden.
int Alignment_Hidden(object oCreature)
{
/* if(GetName(GetItemInSlot(INVENTORY_SLOT_LEFTRING,oCreature)) == "Ring of Hide Alignment")
return TRUE;
if(GetName(GetItemInSlot(INVENTORY_SLOT_RIGHTRING,oCreature)) == "Ring of Hide Alignment")
return TRUE;*/
return FALSE;
}
//Author: Big E
//Date: July 20, 2002
//Detect Evil By Round
void Detect_Evil_By_Round(object oCaster,int iRound)
{
float RANGE = 18.29; //Range in metres
// int MIN_EVIL = 29; //The number at which the evil outweighs the good
int iEvilCreatureCount = 0; //The number of evil auras in range
int iMostEvil = 0; //The lowest GoodEvil value
int iCount = 1; //A counter to cycle through creatures
float nDistance = 0.0; //The distance away from the caster of the creature
string sDistance = ""; //String version of nDistance
string sEvil = ""; //Aura strength
int bEvilDetected = FALSE; //Evil found?
location lCreature; //Location of the creature
vector vCreature; //Vector location of the creature
//Get the location of the caster
location lCaster = GetLocation(oCaster);
//Get the first closest creature to the caster
object oCreature = GetNearest(oCaster,iCount);
int iLv1 = GetLevelByPosition(1,oCaster);
int iLv2 = GetLevelByPosition(2,oCaster);
int iLv3 = GetLevelByPosition(3,oCaster);
int iLevel = iLv1 + iLv2 + iLv3;
while((GetIsObjectValid(oCreature)) && (GetDistanceBetween(oCaster,oCreature) <= RANGE))
{
nDistance = GetDistanceBetween(oCaster,oCreature);
if((GetAlignmentGoodEvil(oCreature) != ALIGNMENT_EVIL) || (Alignment_Hidden(oCreature))) //Not Evil or alignment hidden?
{
//Go on to the next creature
iCount++;
oCreature = GetNearest(oCaster,iCount);
continue;
}
bEvilDetected = TRUE; //Evil found
lCreature = GetLocation(oCreature);
//Round 1 - Evil presence detected
if (iRound == 1)
{
if(GetLocation(oCaster) != GetLocalLocation(oCaster,"lPlayer"))
{
SendMessageToPC(oCaster, "Concentration broken. Detect evil cancelled.");
ClearAllActions();
return;
};
SendMessageToPC(oCaster,"There is evil present.");
return;
}
//Round 2 - Number of evil aura's
if(iRound == 2)
{
if(GetLocation(oCaster) != GetLocalLocation(oCaster,"lPlayer"))
{
SendMessageToPC(oCaster, "Concentration broken. Detect evil cancelled.");
ClearAllActions();
return;
};
iEvilCreatureCount++;
if (AuraStrength(oCreature) > iMostEvil)
{
iMostEvil = AuraStrength(oCreature);
}
}
//Round 3
if(iRound == 3)
{
if(GetLocation(oCaster) != GetLocalLocation(oCaster,"lPlayer"))
{
SendMessageToPC(oCaster, "Concentration broken. Detect evil cancelled.");
ClearAllActions();
return;
};
//Get the creature's vector
vCreature = GetPosition(oCreature);
//Face the creature
AssignCommand(oCaster,SetFacingPoint (vCreature));
//Get the compass direction of the creature
AssignCommand(oCaster,GetDirection(GetFacing(oCaster),oCaster,oCreature,nDistance));
}
iCount++;
oCreature = GetNearest(oCaster,iCount);
}
if((iRound == 2) && (bEvilDetected))
{
SendMessageToPC(oCaster,"There are " + IntToString(iEvilCreatureCount) + " evil creatures present.");
if(AuraPower(iMostEvil) == "Overwhelming")
{
//If the caster is good, they are stunned by the overwhelming evil
if(GetAlignmentGoodEvil(oCaster)==ALIGNMENT_GOOD && iMostEvil > (2 * iLevel))
{
SendMessageToPC(oCaster,"The most evil aura is so " + GetStringLowerCase(AuraPower(iMostEvil)) + " that you are momentarily stunned!");
if (!GetIsImmune(oCaster,IMMUNITY_TYPE_MIND_SPELLS))
{
ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_TEMPORARY, EffectStunned(),oCaster,ROUND);
}
else
{
ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_INSTANT,EffectVisualEffect(VFX_IMP_STUN),oCaster);
AssignCommand(oCaster,ActionPlayAnimation(ANIMATION_LOOPING_PAUSE_TIRED,1.0,ROUND));
DelayCommand(0.5,SetCommandable(FALSE,oCaster));
DelayCommand(ROUND,SetCommandable(TRUE,oCaster));
}
return;
}
else
SendMessageToPC(oCaster,"The most evil aura is " + GetStringLowerCase(AuraPower(iMostEvil)));
}
}
if ((iRound == 1) && (!bEvilDetected))
{
SendMessageToPC(oCaster,"You can't seem to sense any evil auras nearby...");
}
}
//Author: Big E
//Date: July 20, 2002
void Detect_Evil(object oCaster)
{
SetLocalLocation(oCaster,"lPlayer",GetLocation(oCaster));
DelayCommand(ROUND,AssignCommand(oCaster,Detect_Evil_By_Round(oCaster,1)));
DelayCommand(ROUND+ROUND,AssignCommand(oCaster,Detect_Evil_By_Round(oCaster,2)));
DelayCommand(ROUND+ROUND+ROUND,AssignCommand(oCaster,Detect_Evil_By_Round(oCaster,3)));
}
//Example using a ring of detect evil for event OnActivateItem
float ROUND = RoundsToSeconds(1); //Need this defined. I use a six second round
void main()
{
effect eHead = EffectVisualEffect(VFX_IMP_HEAD_MIND);
ApplyEffectToObject(DURATION_TYPE_INSTANT,eHead,OBJECT_SELF);
Detect_Evil(OBJECT_SELF);
}

Ugh. Can we not? The spell is stupid, broken and annoying enough as it is, on an RP server. But I suppose if you're going to script in more accessible defences, then sure why not.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

I don't think this is something that is likely to ever go in, really. There are far too many readily able counters too it if you allow this - it's easier to just keep it in the realm of PnP usage between parties in my opinion.

_________________

Signature by Maryn! <3 I am also seen as DM Snuffles.

Personally, I would like to see this implemented, but only as long as the counters are also implemented at the same time.

I've seen people claim they just so happen to conveniently possess an item that makes them utterly immune to spells like Detect Alignment, which annoy me to no end.

_________________
Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

Well, that's because those items exist.

My thoughts exactly.

_________________
Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

I've had Detect Alignment cast on several of my characters before. From what I remember you weren't obligated to tell the caster anything if you didn't want to due to the server PnP spell rules. Personally I've felt vaguely annoyed when people wanted to get that kind of information about my character in such a lazy way, but I have given different responses based on the circumstances.

I'm not particularly fond of this idea. Although most people who I've encountered don't know how to RP using detect evil in the first place, so that is one benefit of an actual scripted spell. Plus the fact that people could no longer just assume they have the spell prepared, and actually have to use a spell slot pre-advanced.

I've never really been much of a fan of detect spells though, because it can take away some of the fun from both yourself and other people, by giving people an easy way of getting to the end of the mystery, rather than putting in any real effort.

Alternatively, if someone hasn't prepared and defended from this, then they're not the mastermind they thought themselves to be.

_________________
Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.

Does not add anything. Those who get something out of the alignment system can continue to base their RP around it, but I'd rather not have it shoved down my throat when I know I know better.

_________________

I thought the rule was that if you can not physically represent the item in-game, it didn't exist on the character?

_________________
Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

Yes. That is the rule. Which implies that those items physically exist in the game.

_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293

Its tough, though. To deny a person OOCly, which is perfectly within the rules-- feels like you're also giving the other player OOC information on the alignment of your character.

I would rather just see Detect Good/Evil scrapped altogether.

For example, a Paladin will use it on my evil character. My options, if I'm unprepared-- are either 1.) Deny his request to use that PnP ability. 2.) Let him use it, and let him discover that I'm evil.

If I let him use it, I get announced ICly as evil. And this is equally frustrating, because when folks use this as a justification-- you would expect it to be very weak reasoning why you could kick somebody out of being involved. But instead, the simple brand of "This person is evil" is often all anyone needs. Aren't there varying degrees of evil? Don't most people hold the occasional wicked thought? What would happen if you approached a public figure, and said, "This man has evil in his heart." Wouldn't the expected response be, "..Excuse me?" Or from the crowd, "Uh.. Thanks. Okay."

If I chose the first option, I also give the player of the character a basic OOC understanding that I'm hiding my alignment because I don't want it to be known, and the best logical reason for that-- is because I'm evil. I have seen firsthand an immediate change in character reactions after I've declined the use of the spell. I have also seen a spy character deny the spell, giving reasoning such as, "Its a very simple, but very definitive one-stop to spy RP, and I would prefer unveiling to come through richer RP."-- And those gathered around the guy actually got mad at him. They chewed him out OOCly.

The moment you ask a player whether or not you can detect their alignment, and that player happens to be an alignment which is trying to be hidden-- its game over. You've put him in a position where he either equips you with the OOC knowledge that he's evil, or he equips you with the IC knowledge.

Its a miserable spot to be in. I have to then trust that the player won't metagame my alignment if I choose the OOC route-- which regretfully happens even subconsciously.

I'm of the camp to just remove the ability to use it, even with PnP.

And? That's the game. These abilities exist, as do the counters. You want to be impervious to detection, screenshot your character's morning rituals of casting those spells on themselves. Then the worst you have to put up with is out-right metagaming, which is easily and effectively handled by DMs.

_________________
Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

Personally, I just tell people categorically that I don't do alignment spells. As a consequence, my perfectly decent (neutral, IIRC) character was treated suspiciously and coldly IC without any IC interaction to give cause for doubt. Which was funny, I thought, and did not bother to correct them.

Richard: It's not the game. It's some other game, a game we're not playing and a game we don't want to play. We make our own game, so obviously we should make it as good as we can. And there are few arguments to support the inclusion of alignmnt detection in a game that lacks it by default. It's just a bad idea. Detect Alignment is not, and has never been, part of NWN so I don't see why we should strive to include it when the learned consensus is overwhelmingly against it.

_________________

No, metagaming claims are absolutely not easy to handle. For one, I have to have undeniable proof that a character is transferring knowledge in his head to his character's head. Which include numerous screenshots-- and the only ones that really verify it would have had to taken place beforehand (When I would have had no reason to take them), so we can see a reasonable change. If someone just starts acting a bit strangely toward me, I have a very weak claim against them. And furthermore, to then have a DM get involved and remind him not to metagame alignment is only going to exacerbate the situation.

While it might be humorous (And I would probably think so too, if they were basing their metagamed responses off an incorrect OOC assumption)-- its entirely not humorous when it happens to you and you're actually evil. And you get either kicked out or pushed aside of a role you spent weeks or months weaseling into.

I'm sorry, but this is a game, with decidedly good and evil, that -is- detectable.


This holds no weight for me, D&D is not real life, where good and evil are blurred depending on the day and circumstances. Everyone is neutral.

I do agree with Svensk and Hackums, in that the spell can potentially ruin RP, and remove the mystery factor. But then, this is a game about the constant battle between good and evil, that's why there's an alignment system. All this bullshit talk of messing with the very core of the game, is quickly ruining my experience here on this server.

_________________

Uh, okay. But what about the varying degrees of evil? People bring up all the time that the fact that D&D runs off of a very tangible goodness and evil system. Which I can agree with-- but only in part.

Yes, its obvious to see its some kind of tangible force, for those spells to even grab onto anything in the first place. But the obvious examples are Devils and Celestials. Are these inherently pieces of whole, 100% good? Or are they instead simply very, very good.

Is a Lawful Good player the same as a Lawful Good Celestial? Its pretty clear to me that there are obvious degrees of good and evil, and its easy to look at a Celestial compared to a LG commoner and understand that: "A Celestial will always act on good, because it is in the fiber of his being. It is what he is composed of. The Commoner acts that way, not all the time-- but most of the time. And he is certainly not comprised of Goodness."

Yet, the alignment system in no way represents this diversity in strength. Its easy to say, "Good and evil exist, look at planar creatures." But those could just as easily be the extremes of an axis, rather than an entity forged of 'Goodness'.

I should hope Amia is not as banal as that.

In any case, the dogmatists usually in favor of hard rules to beat other people with tend to appeal to what they think is "the game" and conveniently ignore that it's not the game we're playing. We don't play D&D, and even if we did, the books constantly stress that DMs and players should take the game into their own hands and make of it what they want. But we don't play D&D, and detecting alignment is not part of this game. We must not forget this; there is no Detect Evil in NWN or Amia. You want to introduce a new tool, so you really need a more substantial argument to justify the suggestion.

_________________

Detect Evil wouldn't be an issue, if people didn't use it as the single and only evidence needed to outcast someone.

Edit: Which is kind of ridiculous when people do. You could cast the same spell on an Archdevil, and receive the reply: "This being is evil", and you would get the same answer if you cast it on someone who has just -barely- pierced the Lawful Neutral alignment and is now LE.

It still would, because it gives information not through RP but by the press of a button. It might not be a terrible problem in all cases, but in no cases would it be a constructive resource for better RP. There is not a single case imaginable where its inclusion would make us work harder for a better story - even when it's acceptable, it's unnecessary.

And, of course, since we do not and never should police alignments according to a single standard (which, even if the anti-intellectualism of the notion wasn't offensive in itself, would be practically impossible), it would create a huge OOC problem of unfairness: two characters could behave in exactly the same way with the same motivations, but one player would interpret their PC as neutral and another mark theirs as evil. And in many believable cases, both decisions could be justified and defensible enough to be approved, even under DM scrutiny. How, then, could you ever justify the IC discrepancy of the evidence?

_________________

Agreed. The sad reality is that no amount of justification trumps the detect evil button.

My main point is that rejecting this PnP use-- which is heavily debatable anyway-- opens up a huge opportunity for metagaming. Whether its IC or OOC, huge amounts of assumptions are made to the general, and I would claim unfairly placed, recipient of the spell.

That is true, and I see your point. My solution is to make my stance widely known and always refuse it, so people really should know by now it has nothing to do with the PC in question.

On the other hand, I am a proponent of as much freedom as possible, generally. I don't mind if people want to take the easy way out and unimpress others with their amazing Detection magics. As long as they leave me out of it, they can knock themseves out. I can see why it can be a problem, but I think it's the lesser evil compared to outright telling people they can't, between themselves, do something stupid.

It would be less of an issue if server culture was generally iffy about Detect Evil. It becomes an issue when it's almost expected of you by default to agree to play along, even if you technically have the right to refuse. Mind you, I don't know if this is the case on Amia - I don't remember the last time someone tried to pull a Detect Alignment on me.

_________________

It's not that banal, it's that simplistic.

I do not "conveniently ignore" anything, we are playing D&D on a video game, that was made for v3.0. This server does its best to incorporate v3.5 rules, and even states that v4.0 rules are not recognized. Just because certain spells/feats/whatever were not incorporated into the game mechanics, does not mean they don't exist, it's why we are permitted use of PnP spells, and why some have PnP spells in their characters' actual Spell Book.

Any further screwing with the rules of the game, will require a disclaimer stating "This server is based on D&D, please see the rules of what we think it should be."

I'm losing a lot of respect for the way this server is heading, it's not Amiafar, please don't let it become that.

_________________

Don't omit the flipside: we are allowed not to acknowledge someone's knowledge and use of PnP spells, because they don't quite conclusively exist, certainly not in everyone's repertoire. If I let you use Detect Evil on me, it is a courtesy and we agree to bend the limits of the game. If I do not let you do it, it does not mean the spell just fails, it means we do not even acknowlege the possibility of the spell for present purposes. You could not, for example, ever hold it against someone IC that a Detect Alignment spell was not cast on them during some screening process, if the player in question denies any use of Detect Alignment.

And yes, a disclaimer like you mentioned would be a good idea. If it isn't self-evident, anyhow. (I always thought it was.)

_________________

Please no. And to provide a little bit of context:

A DM once ran a plot where a selected number of characters (My Druid being one of them) were given a mechanically represented IG ability, which had a Detect Evil effect attached to it RPly. While people were still freely able to OOCly decline the Detect Evil portion of the spell, the fact that it was mechanically represented made people feel like it would be in bad taste to decline. I very rarely used the ability because I don't agree with them on a fundamental basis, but there were multiple instances where she was pressed into using the ability by others because they knew she could do it. It was an awkward position to be in be, because of course an Aasimar would use the tools she was given, but I hated doing it OOCly. By the end of the plotline, there were -literal- lines before every event where characters who wanted to participate had to wait in a queue to be 'scanned' by a character who could do so. It was like the TSA of event participation.

Was it IC for these characters to be cautious, once they had the tools to be? Certainly. Was it one of the lamest, 'crunchiest' immersion breaks I've ever seen regardless? Pretty close.

I wish I could say the example was hyperbole, but it's nowhere near. Actual IG spells would just be a repeat of that disaster, and Amia RP doesn't need any more help reinforcing the unrealistic way people handle 'cosmic alignment' IC.

It is the case. And it infuriates me when I see good players of spies just go along with it because they don't want to make the fuss of refusing a P&P spell. It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't such a metagamey mess. I see that so many players don't understand how much of a problem it is. Hackums explained it pretty well however.

But, fortunately there are readily-available counters, so you don't have to say no to the spell anymore. Also it's not well-known but if you've applied the opposing spells you don't need to ask permission when someone casts a Detect Alignment spell - so people can't metagame that you're using the spell.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

I'm not omitting anything, what you stated is a given, and part of server rules. Thank you for stating the obvious. I happen to agree with you there.

_________________

I'm not sure what the current problem is, though. Cleric A casts detect alignment and Blackguard B is in charge of the effect. He can deny it and have the allegations pile up. He can accept it and just tell Cleric A that the spell does X effect to show neutrality.

Now if your character is dressed in pure black robes with a red glowing staff in hand, well, you're shooting yourself in the foot in that case. I know I do.

_________________
Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

The problem, Serb, is that nowhere in the description of the counters does it say that it gives a false reading, or disguises the alignment. They say it just foils the divination, ergo it could be assumed that the person casting the divination knows that something is preventing it from working. Which then simply causes the assumption that if you're hiding your alignment, you're doing so for nefarious reasons. The same rock and hard place you get from refusing outright.

Not true. Alignment detection spells detect presence or absence. The counters don't cause the spell to fail - you cast detect evil on a CE person with Undetectable Alignment, you get the same result as casting it on an LG person or a TN person. That is - "You don't detect evil"

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@Thanatopsis#6293

I've gotten bad rulings then

@Kudark - If you can cast Detect Evil on my character, can I cast Soul Bind on yours?

Some spells abruptly break RP without recourse, and if left unchecked, ruin characters with little effort or RP required. These two are examples of those spells.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Kudark, you claimed that Detect Evil was an undeniable part of NWN and Amia because players have the freedom to agree to pretend to use it, between themselves. I pointed out that, by default, the spell does not exist and it's everyone's right to deny its legitimacy. It is not even that a player needs to present an active refusal; the spells require active consent, so the default position is that they are not valid. It is not very convincing to claim that Detect Evil, then, is a crucial part of the game even if it's not actually part of it.

In any case: DMs don't recognize and enforce rules-waivers or gentleman's agreements between players. In other words, they don't enforce honesty regarding contracts. Approving a PnP spell is a gentleman's agreement waiving your right not to be subject to PnP spells, no? So, DMs will not enforce it, and therefore you can simply lie about the results if you're so inclined. (Not that I encourage lying, as it tends to be a dick move, but it's certainly a way to make a point.)

_________________

This is why the spell shouldn't be such a problem.

Mimrion, "I" can't cast any spells Crow can't cast that one either, but if one of yours can, well... this -is- an RP server

EDIT: I think those spells could generate RP as well. Think if it (Soul Bind) was cast on Crow, would not those who care for him want to do something about it? Also, it would generate new types of RP for Crow as well, during the time he was bound.

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In my experience, if you consent to PnP spells and a DM is involved, they will police the spell's effects, even if the RP is only between players. Lying isn't really an option.

The descriptions in the SRD are a little ambiguous, but Detect Evil has duration "Concentration 10mins/level" and a wide area of effect, while the spell description of Undetectable Alignment mentions concealment but no active dispulsion effects. Ergo the spell just continues as normal even in presence of Undetectable Alignment. Nondetection is similar but don't use that, there's a CL check. Metagamers ahoy.

If someone gives me a bad ruling I'll usually rules-lawyer the living daylights out of them if I know I'm right

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@Thanatopsis#6293

If you're leaning on the OOC protections on the server to make it so you can be scryed and resurrected then you shouldn't tell other people they can't lean on protections to have simple PnP spells wash years of RP down a drain.

What I'm saying is, that you can make such things impossible to find and invariably ruin a character with little effort if you're just using the PnP spellbook. That's why these things should require consent or DM help.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

I love the alignment system, what screws with it is when players abuse it. That's what makes me sad.

Hacky Sack: There are varying degrees of Evil, indeed, however there are not varying degrees of being Evil. It's the alignment system, if you're Evil it's because you've done so many Evil things that your scarred (basically) and you need some serious redemption to get back on the 'right path'. Detect Alignment spells detect your alignment, not what Evil thoughts you might have. It's actually very clear cut in that regard (unless it's fooled).

Which is why I don't like those spells. They are nice in PnP, but in multiplayer it spoils the fun. The only time I approve of seeing Detect Alignment spells used is when a PC is asking them to be performed on their character to prove something or clear their name or something. But still, I don't like their use myself because it's basically an Easy Button and people can abuse it and the results (or refusal to provide results).


Also, redemption RP. Fuck, why don't we see more of that?

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Naivatkal has the heart of it. Alignment-based detection spells are a lot like the social skill rolls - they are intended to be used in a very limited context in the tabletop game, that being PCs using them on NPCs. The minute you start wielding those things between PCs in a multiplayer environment (or even in tabletop!), it becomes a total drag.

Yeah the Paladin class is much-maligned on the tabletop, because it's essentially designed as the Party Alignment Police.



It's just the server culture. Good PCs are never penalized for taking the easy path of killing/jailing and forgetting about them, rather than going through the often monumental if not impossible effort of redeeming a PC (since some people are OOCly unwilling to let their character be influenced, and of the rest, it's often difficult for perfectly IC reasons). Since there will always be more evil to fight/other things to do, people take the easy route and move on. It's sad but that's the way it goes. I wish I could encourage a change but attempts to redeem my PCs have mostly seemed lacklustre and insufficient.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

Sometimes helping a PC redeem just requires showing you trust them. That you believe them. That you care about their welfare. And then when you build something resembling trust and friendship, you just might begin to have an impact on that person's life, for the better (or for your own goals).

It is a lot more work, yes, than most want to put in, and it isn't something that comes naturally to everybody.

In my eyes, that's just as bad. Instead of having to live with your reputation and convince your fellows, you can just have a magic button clear your name. Besides, there's no OOC guarantee that the player got their alignment right - they might have done something iffy that did in fact turn them temporarily evil without the player's recognizing it, and the character sheet might not be up-to-date.

In other news, I am still not convinced about your idea of D&D ethics and cosmic alignment. You make a very substantial moral-theoretical argument when you state that alignment is a scar that lingers, primarily the sum of your actions - as opposed to the sum of your intentions or, say, the state of your mind at a given moment. (There's no D&D rule to say that alignment should be static - it just looks like that for the sake of simplicity.) These are viable views to hold, but they are certainly not trivial, self-evident or unequivocally determined by our authoritative sources (if we were to recognize any).

My view of redemption would be that the moment someone's mind changes and their intentions become genuinely good, their alignment changes. That does not mean the redemption is done - it has only begun, and they are good only insofar as they dutifully pay for their past. But I do not buy the interpretation that someone sincerely repents and begins to do good, but only manages to change their alignment once they have enough good deeds to tip the scales. And that's not to say you can't think of it like that; my central point in these sorts of discussions is that you can look at it either way, both can be very persuasive and wonderful, and it's not our business to decide which is more "correct."

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Hey, Iron, how about you tell us again why it is you hate the alignment system? I've been dying to hear it for the ten millionth time.

This discussion was also about Detect Good/Evil, not the Alignment System.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

Hey now. Play nicely!

The argument Iron, and myself, made was that the Detect Good/Evil spell is damaging due to a naturally flexible (Yet is perceived as being rather inflexible) alignment system.

Add on top of that metagaming concerns, multiplayer issues and the use of an ability to goes against its perceived intended use (The social rolls argument). The Alignment system is a relevant part of the discussion as to why some players are opposed to be branded at the push of a button as "Evil" or "Good."

Yeah that's whey I said I still don't really like them. It's just too easy to do things when you can just go 'oh you are this alignment'. Better saved for doing it on a NPC with a DM present, like in PnP.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

I must ask; does everybody think that players of Paladins just run around casting Detect Evil on everyone as if it was as easy as breathing? Because some of us actually do put a bit of effort and consideration into its use.

Oh, no no! They're just a politically correct term to use. We're making broad and general statements, so as to not pick particular people who do use it frequently.

There are, I would say, more people (And more paladins) that do not, than do. It just so happens that paladins possess the ability without any preparation!

There's a particular irony in that we use paragons of good to make readable arguments about flawed alignment systems and spells.

I dont see a reason for having any form of scripted spell put in... or a widget.. or the "Almighty button". It can be left to a PnP spell request in game.

The casting of the spell on someone.. I view as a hostile act if it is not appreciated or requested. Asking ooc permission is not the same as gaining the characters permission. If someone comes to me in RP nd says they will cast the spell on me to prove something to them self or others, I will warn them IC that if they do, they will have my sword swinging for their head. But I wont discount their RP just because I dont want my toon to be outed as having an evil alignment.. even though he is not wholly evil in his intent.

If your character is shady as hell, and gives people a reason to question your morals or ethics or intent, then thats the way it is. It has been said over and over.. IC actions have IC consequences. So if you dont want some goodly person coming to you, questioning your intent, and seeking to find a way to figure your toon out, do a better job at hiding who you really are.
But alternatively, if you are a goodly type.. use some investigation to figure out the other guy... dont just fall back on the fail safe of detecting evil. It really is cheesy.

Thats my two cents...

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Years of Love are forgotten in the hatred of a minute - Edgar Allen Poe

Basically, what Sith said. Don't look cheesy and don't give anyone cause to doubt your characters intentions. Be it in attitude, behaviour and even what you wear.

Pretend to be the upstanding member of society everyone thinks you are and no one will ever have cause to cast a detect alignment on you.

Sith touched it with his comment

On Amia, you can easily determine if someone is evil if they wear a hood and black/grey clothes (lol)

Just to add on that, my character Lavim wears a black armor - he's a good aligned char, but I've had someone approach him and ask where the Cyric temple was Didn't even question themselves, saw black armor and then asked right away in whisper in an alley in the middle of Cordor That's the extend of that black clothes cliché on Amia - it has become so overdone and widespread that people already assume you're evil if you wear black ^^

SOOO!!! Evil people, stop wearing shady as hell clothes and a hood and you won't have that many questions coming your way

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Account Name: Karnak_71
Character Name: Hanamori Saya
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