Yes, but it's unrealistic to expect the already busy and generous DMs to keep up with each and every RPed crime and caper from this hypothetical group of criminals, and compensate them monetarily. It's something that could only be covered if we had a DM specifically on hand for it >.> call me pessimistic, but I don't think it's something we're getting.

So if this did happen, the DMs would have to be met halfway on the issue. No this group probably wouldn't be making money hand over fist within the first few months of it's conception just from the rp it generated. However, look at it like this. Do the folks playing Cordor guards actually get a monthly stipend representing their wages? Do the DMs regularly give anyone money for role playing their jobs? We've got a job system in place on the server, it doesn't generate money in the millions true, but everyone knows a system that did would render the gold even more worthless than it already is.

So if everyone else on the server is subject to the same stigma, why should the folks playing cut throat (albeit classy ) criminals get a break? I keep hearing "Carrot on a Stick" and motivation being a problem and I gotta ask. Is being one of the guys with the shit eating grin on his face while the Cordor gaurds scratches theirs heads not motivation enough? The motivation here would be to take a group of back alley thugs and turn them into a finely tuned machine of information and power, giving Corder a new flavor to it's society, and perhaps eventually make folks think twice about what they say out loud and what alleyways they walk down.

And TYP as to the ooc issues, in the information game, there's not much of a way around that save dealing with it as it's always been dealt with, on a case by case basis. However I will say this, if your character is discussing important plans IC, and not looking around the corner for spies, then he/she needs to re-read his playbook.

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Kael Gerrad: Hardest thing ye'll learn to do in this life is be free.
Syfe McCaul: Death comes only to the deserving.

Ok DCB you must be new here so I'll give you the low down. There once was group called Black Flag. This group was a bunch of back alley thugs who did what you just described above. Became a powerful mob organization that was feared. They helped to create a lawless South Cordor where walking through it's alleys was in fact dangerous. Even a lot of guards(even DM possessed ones) would avoid going there.

South Cordor was the shining example of the poverty stricken area that none of the Cordor officials really cared for. In a sense it kept crime away from the other parts of Cordor because it was easy to do it in the dirty south.

Somehow through the magic of hero players getting what they wanted over the criminals, victims crying foul, and other no offense nonsense, South Cordor has changed into the exact opposite. The shops were moved down there along with an entire prison. The lawlessness was in a sense pulled out of the equation. But what many don't understand was that the lawlessness down there was a more realisitic idea, a better idea, drew more conflict, more players down there, and was used and fun.

I find it even more stupid that all these changes were made yet the Sanctuary of Sin still resides below....yet naturally is lawful and if someone breaks the law and uses that area to escape....the sanctuary of sin will also be replaced with the Sanctuary of utterly boring and lack luster goodliness.

No offense DMs(this is merely an opinion) I believe you made a mistake in the changes you brought to South Cordor.

*Sigh* Okay. Let's cull.

One, the Flag was still around for a looooooong time AFTER Cordor changed. Not only around, but extremely profitable.

Two, the Prison has been in South Cordor since /well/ before it changed. The actual change of South Cordor was in BIG part (correct me if I'm wrong) due to a LOT of IC work by Christophan Warrick (Grymia) and his /IC/ friends. It wasn't just him saying "O, hey, I want this, gimme" and the staff going "Hurrdurr, OK!"

Was it in part to get the Flag out? Probably. Who doesn't want the big baddies the hell out of the ghetto?

And as for the Sanctuary...Aside from the fact that at least until recently, if not still now, it was closed by the Guard, does anyone ELSE remember the key-searches? People getting corralled in Cordor and patted down, and anyone with Sanctuary keys get all their IDs taken?

There is a /lot/ of RP that seems to just be getting ignored here for the sake of calling it OOC, and that's not fair. It's not fair to the characters who had big, vast amounts of work put in, it's not fair tot he DMs that assisted, and it's not fair to the Bad Guys who were gracious and rolled with things.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

Dear people bitching about South Cordor changing from a slummy piece of shithole to a reputable place:

Search "Cordor" in the DM Events forum, read it, and get back to me, and stop insulting the work of a dozen PCs and DMs over years of plotwork.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I'll admit that I've been watching this topic, but I've mostly skimmed through the posts.

The Cordor Guard faction members do occasionally get paid, but it's only a very small amount. I have a pay wand for the faction, and a guardsman gets paid between three and ten thousand per week, and gets bonuses for stuff. I usually use it whenever I see my guys on, but I'm on break now.

South Cordor did indeed used to be a high criminal area. I joined the Guard around that time and we frequently had PvP out there. That was... the brunt of it. People RPing threat thugs who just wanted to fight. Most of the RP was breaking up fighting rings. Occasionally, we'd have drug and fraud busts, with the Black Flag and other miscellaneous groups. There were some shady deals going on, I can assure you, that put a crimp in the Guard's style and step. Early on, we had to fight and argue and deal. I won't say what happened, but it did.

The area was made no PvP for a while since people couldn't be responsible, as I recall. But, it was also done for IC reasons. Stepped up enforcement and so on. More attention being given to the area with Christophan Warrick's Reconstruction agenda and his fund-raising, and the help of Sympathy for South Cordor, which now has a building. That's the most obvious influence.

I've said this before in the last crime topic, but overt crime has difficulty existing simply because a city as large and as well-supplied as Cordor has the resources to squelch obvious crime. And, likely violently, given the hatred of of adventurers. The Cordor=Serious Mode topic was made in response to difficultly in being able to give weighty and appropriate punishments. It's shown in here with people going "death is just death. You'll get a raise and be back to doing the same thing." Yes. The faction has realized that death tends to be a light punishment that the criminal prefers more than being in a jail cell and wasting their time. Why? Because they don't have to talk, or be bored, or anything, and we're obligated to toss the body and let you get on with your other RP instead of observing a consequence. There was an IC comment Nev made to a prisoner when he asked what would happen to him.

She said, "I really have no idea. The punishments Cordor gives out are all over the place, for whatever we think will be the most effective for the prisoner."

Meaning, there is no hierarchy of punishment. All punishments are equally weighted, almost, which is wrong. We have people who fight fines more than they fight being killed. They know which one negates the cost more, but they take the death seriously only after they get killed and are raised. Then, they want revenge because the guards 'brutally' killed them.

Also, the prison was always there, and the shops were moved down there to bring more wealth to the area and prevent it from becoming impoverished again. However, the poverty just moved elsewhere, which I think people would notice here and there if they could get off of what South Cordor used to be. Innovate, and move on with the times. Please. That said, the Sanctuary of Sin has always been a cess pool, that the Cordor officials often ignored since it wasn't worth the investment and perhaps there were other reasons.

But, now the Sanctuary of Sin has been temporarily shut down, and still is, to my knowledge.

The trouble with lawless RP is that everyone wants to make the millions to make it worth their while. They want to get off clean with doing big jobs like robbing vaults and houses and shops, and leave tricky clues and calling cards. They tend to get offended when logic goes, "I bet its these new guys" and then you're caught and brought into a cell for interrogation. Interrogations and jail time rarely yield success, and its often taken that "we're ruining your RP" and often times, I have people who go afk or ask if they can just log off for their jail time.

I've gotten so frustrated that I've said, "Sure, but when you log back on, you have to come back here. The Guard isn't letting you out until we exhaust the interrogation methods and get answers." Which I think is perfectly reasonable, but it upsets most criminal RPers. The criminals are the most tight-lipped, practiced stoolie jail-birds already, even though they just started working the criminal scene on Amia. My Guard PC who has extracted lots of information and who has the experience (which I believe I accurately represent in her interrogations and emotes) rarely ever has success in cracking a suspect and getting a confession. She has a few times, but most of the time, there is silence. It's been brought to my attention that maybe she'd have more success through less humane methods, but it's frustrating to me to think that she'd have to club each and every stoolie into submission instead of focusing on fancy techniques.

But, criminals tend to want their RP to take off like a rocket, quickly. They want to be rolling in it from the first day, and they don't strategically plan their hits or their marks. Most of them are random and just lead a big old blood trail back to you, on valid suspicion.

The other trouble is what happens after people "get away with it" and the law starts collecting witness reports (which is really the only evidence. We can't be like, 'The diamond thieves left the jewelers and the footprints lead into the sewer grate in the basement!' 'Well, then, it seems the path to finding them is... crystal clear.' YEAAAAAAH.) It's just not something that can be represented, or represented fairly between players, I don't think. It's hardly cunning when we can't surprise you with evidence you might've left behind and forgot, without doing a bit of godgaming. But, then, the criminal also has the option of godgaming a bit and going, "I didn't leave anything behind. I'm slick like Spring Heel Jack, even at level 5."

Much of the time, cases go cold because there isn't much of an investigation that can be done. We have to catch you red handed or pray there there was a witness, which we can't really verify and so on. And, much of the time, after the criminals get away with it, they stop being played for a few weeks, or a month, or longer. It's unfortunate, and I still haven't found a reason why that would be the case outside of taking another precaution to assure that no one will be "caught" as being a suspect based on the circumstantial evidence the guard cobbles together. ("Returning to the scene of the crime, I see! Let's check your bags...")

And then there is always the lovely metagaming concerns. The accusations, despite efforts to avoid it and be logical when selecting suspects and motives and scenarios.

That said, I've rarely been impressed with the criminal RP that crops up. It's short-lived, and then nothing happens to be able to pursue other avenues with it. The guard does not get the opportunity to scratch their heads and pour through evidence and interview witnesses and check crime scenes and review scene reports to try and pin a criminal like, they do on the shows Cold Case and 48. If we did, I'd be a happy woman and perhaps not so burnt out. Like it or not, the RP is not always the carrot. It's the satisfaction of "Hehehe. My character will get away with it and make millions and steal Minister Maximillian's prized gold loofah, and I'll RP it's stashed somewhere else and my character won't crack in interrogations, ever!"

And, I can sympathize with it. I do get a bit of satisfaction during interrogation RP when the little "Aha!" light goes on and I think Nev understands the situation and she'll succeed in putting a criminal away and closing a big case. I know many of the other guards feel that way too, which is why I recently bought a DC medal spawner for the faction. If they manage to, they get a shiny medal to gloat about. I'm hoping that more scenarios will come up so they can be rewarded like cops are for being awesome.

Unfortunately, the most success we've ever had with Guard RP (in my opinion) is when a DM was supervising us doing things like key checks and interrogations and blockades and so on. Because DM interaction is at times a better carrot than just RP between players. It makes it look more interesting and interactive with the environment, instead of what has been called "grieving by the faction" before. It gives people a sense of security, which is great. I don't want a scenario where we take all your stuff, even though shakedowns are fun. My goal as a player isn't to take your gold, or your epic loot, or anything. It's always a sore point, which is I think what Tormak gets at, and if so, I agree with him.

Criminal RP flows better with DM supervision, because it's the only way we can really achieve this ideal vision every one talks about and wants to aspire to. A fair environment where the bad guys can fairly stump the guards, or the guards can fairly find out the bad guys and take them blind. I don't think anyone, on either side, is always responsible or mature enough to establish a fun playground like that and keep it running and out of the weeds. It'd be great if we could, but I know that people want to win and be successful as criminals, and it shows here. Really, I want to be successful as a guard, too, so I get it. I just want to be able to have a fair opportunity at it, as much as you all want a fair opportunity to be criminals. I think all of the guard would agree with me.

It's a long process to establish criminal RP, especially when people try to nip it in the bud and have the experience to do it. Yes, I'm saying criminal RP is often repetitive and is rarely fresh and new. I said that in the last topic. It's not a cushy environment. Naturally, most of the time, I think law enforcement wants to mercilessly crush the criminal element. You'll have to think quick and have a strategy to cover your ass.

There is someone that did this, I believe, and it made Nev a bit grumpy, because they did it in a tricky way, just to establish themselves. Nev couldn't really touch them, but she made their life paperwork hell. I enjoyed that, to a degree.

Now, I like to offer solutions in topics like these, so. Even though I'm on break from the Guard faction to enjoy my summer and so on, you can PM me your ideas on criminals and I'll give you my advice and perspective on what would be successful. Help you with a concept, or a path I would take to see my PC established and get him/her involved.

I'll declutter my inbox.

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

That's a good reply Burning...but I notice it is more through the eyes of the law enforcers, also the DMs willingness to aid law enforcers as opposed to criminals.

Now from the criminals perspective:

Every guard seems to know the answer of who done it anyways. So in actuality almost every criminal is caught, stopped, halted, defeated, jailed, or killed, no matter how good they are.

Victims seem to spring back to life and say "He did it!", so they ALSO defeat the idea of death or any way to keep these stupid victims mouths shut.

I can't tell you how equally annoying it is to have a victim out for revenge after they've been killed multiple times.

Criminals can be banned from the city thus killing any form of criminal RP from said banned criminals, even if it's great.

I can't tell you how annoying it is when a criminal actually pulls off a good crime only to be halted by the all knowing DMs. This happens so frequently, and I'm betting it happens ALOT more frequently then Nev being halted in her investigations.

Christopher.....a single character....somehow changed an entire area that was generally uncared for anyways, into a lawful area. What thoughtless DM allowed that to happen? What next? Tarkuul will become the city of Paladins? At what point did a DM(yes a Dm was required to make those changes at all, to be the mayor of Cordor and say "yes let's fix the slums that no one cares for anyways instead of spending Christophers hard earned cash and a gold gilded horse carriage"

That's what I'm trying to say.....criminal RP and even blathering about it is like blathering about Good vs. Evil....where good is afforded every oppurtunity to make changes to almost any area while evil has to be freakin geniuses in order to make any change at all...even the most remote.

Rather than continuing a futile discussion though(as it is apparent from looking at any changes in game that good always triumphs over evil(how cliche)), I can only accept it as the nature of the beast.

What I can't stand though and what I will argue, is this always communicated idea that somehow criminal RP could work and actually exist and make changes.

I just wish for once a DM or players would spit out the truth: Your criminal RP will fail, your changes will be negated, your criminal RP is it's own reward, cause you won't get any other rewards, bring tylenol, advil, or excedrin when playing a criminal. And if you're too good a criminal....you won't be rewarded... but if you're caught you get perma'd. Your victims will come back from the dead...but you won't. Your whole group can make any place a slum, but one goodly person with some money could negate your whole groups plotting. This is double standard we have set and if you don't like it kiss my ass.

As it stands there is no real criminal enterprise, and there never will be. Criminal RP should be negated anyways because frankly no DM ever helps the criminal win...all they do is create pitfalls and problems. From now on the DMs can create the criminals for goodly factions to destroy...cause usually when there's a criminal org....it has to fight both the goodly forces already outnumbering them, AND the DMs, who seem to stack every decision in favor of the goodly forces, as is evident with South Cordor.

Oi!

South Cordor becoming what it is was more then just the DMs arbitrarily saying that it's gonna no longer be Criminal haven.

A fair amount of IC work went into cleaning up the streets down there and re-forming it into the district it is now.

And even with that, while I'm not saying anything else directly, I bet if you actually DID put the work in, found the oppritunities and dug your heels in you would get reward of some sort.

BBKS, at what point does it make sense to stop being constructive and start closing your eyes and going "NUH UH! NUH UH!"? Your opinions (They are opinions, and to be quite frank, I truly get the idea you either were not a player here when this all happened, or you at least weren't involved in Cordor at the time) are wrong.

They've been refuted by a non-Guard player, a DM, and the head of the guard faction.

I'm not saying whatever it is you're mad at the DM team/Good Guy Factions about is real, or isn't. I'm not saying you have the right, or don't. But, you being mad doesn't mean you need to come into someone else's thread and inject a four-ton serving of negativity because they want to try something. I have watched evil get exactly what it wants, or at least, it's given the /chance to get it through its own work/, because of DMs.

Specifically, for example? Shadowsoul and Mahtan, in Caraigh. Tormak, in Tarkuul. WonWon, when he allowed the Banites to go up against the Black Caravan while I was leading. We lost, but we lost /because of us./ Not because we weren't given a chance. Yossarin, in a scale that simply...staggers me. STAGGERS ME. I cannot fathom how Yoss keeps everything straight for over FOUR REAL-TIME YEARS. Longer than I've even /played/ NWN, he's been keeping one brewing potful of nasty going. To simply blanket statement all of their work, work that we as individual players have no way of knowing about, with the mantel of "Bad guys always lose because OOC." is so...infuriatingly short-sighted and mean. I would happily challenge any player to run even ONE long-term plot (and yes, I mean myself too.) and have it come out not only well...but remembered for years by hundreds of people.

I don't think most could do it. It takes incredible dedication, forethought, and an omniscience that just boggles me.

Personally, to those that made the thread, I've said what I can. I'm not terribly good at secret baddiness, but if I can help, I will. I think it's a damn fine thought, just don't pigeonhole yourself into "X needs to be done, for Y and Y alone." Think big! You absolutely /can/ make a difference in this little world we inhabit.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

Arrogant. insulting.

I have spent my time on Amia playing a criminal, i.e. "One who breaks the law". I disagree vehemently with the statement above as it degrades not only my actions on this server over the years, but the actions of many others who have caused changes to be made and policies to be altered, who have through their actions made a significant difference while playing lawbreakers and criminals.

Criminal RP demands that players on both sides of the fence have a rapport with one another. It demands a certain level of maturity from everyone involved, and a willingness to accept defeats along with victories, consequences as well as triumphs. Even if you as player might be inconvenienced.

Above all, criminal RP requires that you do not whine. On forums or in game. You take your lumps, and if you dislike something you allow your actions to make it change in the future.

Those that are capable of this are already playing and succeeding in game. Those who are not, are not.

As one who at times stood counter to your characters Ego, I have to agree with you!

A good rapport between groups is very helpful at the OOC level, and one needs to accept defeats as well as victories.

Richard Johnson is a good example, yes. He hasn't been pushed aside and ignored. He's been able to do some respectable law breaking in Cordor, even if his character has been caught. He's been given opportunities to break laws and shake foundations, and he's still alive despite it. He's in hot water, though, as far as I know. You should listen to him, certainly, if he wants to expand on it. I don't know all of what has gone into his interactions, but I think he has insight that is valuable.

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

I hear you guys loud and clear and I apologize for sounding like an arrogant ass.

I am less upset and more discouraged...but that is changing thanks to you guys...which reminds me...my next thread will be exactly a sort of pseudo criminal faction.


See you in game.

If you'd like my input and perspective on how to make the group successful, and some good steps to take for early goals and so on, feel free to PM me. I still check the forums even if I'm not IG.

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

Ego literally plays the best PC villain in the entire server and I don't care if you don't believe me, that's my opinion. Listen to his post.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Also there is a large number of unknown crimals behind crimes, that I know for a fact. Number one reason I find out who broke laws is ego, people brag they did the crime than am told about it.

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Lieutenant Belalad Feiwallyan

((Please take note if you PM me and you are ignored resend to me in 1-3days, it is likely due to not realizing I got mail))

This applies to me as well, I'm happy to give out advice if need be.

Take this post and I for what they are: a new player to Amia who nobody probably knows, which means I have no expectations of being involved in any of the cool plotting and scheming that I wish I was. I also have been DMing weekly games for the last handful of years (D&D 3.5 and 4.0) which are almost entirely set in a city environment and entail copious amounts of "Who-dunnit" and Sherlock Holmes whatnotery. I don't know Amia politics, or player rivalries. I don't know what can be done without a DM around. What I do know, is how clues work and how to make them difficult yet still possible for players to utilize.

It seems to me that Amia already has a system in place that would support crime RP. Depending on the heist, with DM consent and MATURE players who don't traipse about pulling the "Spring Heel Jack" routine, it doesn't seem too difficult from my outside perspective. I would PM a DM who might handle such events, and the person who is in charge of whatever city you happen to be capering in. I would be forced to assume that the Meta would be kept to a minimum since all parties would be aware of the crime. That's just RP 101 though.

I would prepare my clues using the scribe bench and pieces of paper to describe the clue in all observable aspects. If I had faith in the players involved, I would also institute skill checks and their DCs to determine what level of information was obtained. If I didn't trust the metagame or wanted it to be more fun for those on the trail, I'd need a DM involved so that the players could preform skill checks and get the appropriate amount of info from the DM.

Seeing as items dropped on the ground would be wiped every 240 minutes or so during a reset, I would state that after that amount of time, the clue (depending on what it is) would be lost because of some form of corruption of said clue. IE if you want to know how long you've been in a sealed room, completely empty aside from a burning candle, you can surmise how much time has passed based on the standard burn rate of a candle. Once the candle has burned out, it is no longer a good clue.

All that would need to be done is set up a time when both parties could be online after a reset, and the criminal would take time to place clues. Yeah, it seems like a lot of prep work, but the good guys get their Sherlock Holmes moment if their characters are smart, the bad guys have the chance to get away depending on how the good guys use the clues, and you get some good suspense from both sides because it literally is a race against the clock to collect the clues and solve the crime.



So... yeah that's how I would do it, but I'm just some new guy with no real knowledge of how things are run on this server. 2c I guess =P

Even if he is just the IRA before they went legits criminals <_<

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

South Cordor's most recent change was my decision. In truth, it wasn't, but in the grand scheme of things, it was. Does it bother me that anyone has a problem with it?

Not anymore than when a roach has a problem with me Raiding it. You see about 5% of the reality and I see 100% of it. Thus it changes to suit the decree of the most informed party: me.

Now, my little roaches, scurry and bring the pestilence I so desire!