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Blackdragon12121

Posted: Tue, Jul 06 2010, 18:44 PM

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Joined: 12 Jun 2006

Just a thought...what would people think about changing this summon into a caster type as opposed to the melee-type. From my understanding of the lore garnered from the SRD (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Succubus) succubi are not warriors.

Just it would be nice for RP if my succubus actually acted like a succubus in battle.

Thanks

_Kip

Posted: Tue, Jul 06 2010, 21:00 PM

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Joined: 18 Jun 2010
Location: Verge Vendor Region

Roll in combat: Controller

General:
"Succubi tempt mortals into performing evil deeds, using their shapechanging abilities to appear as attractive men and women. Althou seduction and betrayal are their forte, succubi are also practiced spies and assassins.
Succubi Serve more powerful devils as scouts, advisors, and even concubines. Because of their guile and shapechanging ability, they are frequently chosen to serve as infernal emissaries to important mortals."

Tactics:
"When exposed for what it is, a succubus can be a deadly foe. It can manipulate the emotions of mortal adversaries, turning them against each other or making them slavishly loyal to it with a mere kiss."

A typical encounter for the appropriate level party will have one Succubus (as the controller, IE Leader) with two Lurkers and Soldiers to deal out the damage and hold the front line for the succubus.

---

What this could mean here? They'd be a caster if used as a summon. But the general idea behind the succubus seems to lean more towards them not being summoned out to do the dirty fighting, but instead lurking about the shadows and manipulating things. Not something I can really see a summoning spell in NWN doing justice of.

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TormakSaber

Posted: Tue, Jul 06 2010, 21:01 PM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
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That's 4th edition.

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Silent2001

Posted: Tue, Jul 06 2010, 21:02 PM

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Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Location: United Kingdomshire

Well... Succubi aren't devils for one, so I would write off that lore, Kip

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_Kip

Posted: Tue, Jul 06 2010, 21:13 PM

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Joined: 18 Jun 2010
Location: Verge Vendor Region

At first I was rather upset with the thought of a Succubi being a Devil instead of a Demon in fourth edition (I'm a fan of the Abyssals). However, the more I thought about it the more it made sense to me. A succubus relies on manipulating and controlling those around them. Demons ... do not manipulate, unless you consider ripping someone's head off first chance they get a form of manipulating. Demons do not try to control things, unless you consider feasting upon a creatures tasty bits a form of control. No, the succubus is about keeping their composure and position within while keeping those around them in check. That is not a demon. As much as I love the idea of the succubus being a demon, they just don't fit. Even if you look back into the third, second, A, and original, they are a juxtaposition of mechanics not matching lore and design.

You thoughts on editions aside, the basic thoughts of the succubus remain the same. They are based on lawful concepts and attempt manipulation and remaining behind the lines. I would go so far as to say that they do not make a proper creature choice for a PC controlled summon at all, let alone a Melee fighter.

---

EDIT: But, that just goes with the general thought of Fourth having a better base and more well thought out lore system and understanding of game mechanics and effects all around over previous editions. Instead of being stuck in the past, they decided to re-evaluate everything so that it becomes function and understandable.

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Silent2001

Posted: Tue, Jul 06 2010, 21:26 PM

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Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Location: United Kingdomshire

I'd contest that. Most demons are barbaric and violent creatures, but there's exceptions to every rule really. Sometimes mortals will have something a demon lord wants, that can't be taken with the "I'm going to smash your skull in" attitude that most demons have. So they send succubi/incubi/lilitus and other nasties to seduce/manipulate and ultimately try and get what they want.

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_Kip

Posted: Tue, Jul 06 2010, 21:28 PM

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Joined: 18 Jun 2010
Location: Verge Vendor Region

Silent2001 wrote:

So they send succubi/incubi/lilitus and other nasties to seduce/manipulate and ultimately try and get what they want.

I read this as, "They realize their chaotic nature doesn't comply with the situation, so they send in a Lawful creature to do the job for them."

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Colapops

Posted: Tue, Jul 06 2010, 21:35 PM

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Joined: 16 Feb 2008
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I see succubi as the kinds of fiends who are demons because they do what they do with absolutely nothing in the ways of planning or foresight. They show up when summoned or beckoned, possess someone, enslave someone, enthrall someone, etc. to feed off them and leave them for dead. They work on raw passion, dreams, and desires and use those with absolutely no goal in mind except to feed. In other words, chaotic evil.

If they were devils, maybe they'd have longstanding plans for an individual mortal. Plans to possess and enthrall a country's king or warlord, or to take over a religious organization through succubic means but with a real goal in mind, other than just "drain that bitch dry."

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TormakSaber

Posted: Tue, Jul 06 2010, 22:37 PM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
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4e is trash, Succubi are Demons and Erinyes are Devils, on Amia, which is all that mattered here.

Quote:

EDIT: But, that just goes with the general thought of Fourth having a better base and more well thought out lore system and understanding of game mechanics and effects all around over previous editions. Instead of being stuck in the past, they decided to re-evaluate everything so that it becomes function and understandable.

Most definitely untrue, btw but edition wars again are lame and 4t h edtion lore is worthless to know here. So....

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P Three

Posted: Tue, Jul 06 2010, 23:56 PM

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Joined: 18 Dec 2008

Just saying "4th Edition" in a mirror over and over will make Tormak appear and beat you with a 3e core rulebook.

I'm just sayin'.

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TormakSaber

Posted: Wed, Jul 07 2010, 0:20 AM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
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Not really. Just 4th edition Forgotten Realms lore.

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Shade of Blue

Posted: Wed, Jul 07 2010, 0:29 AM

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Joined: 06 Aug 2008

Succubi are chaotic because they do not serve any far-flung purpose (like an Erinyes does) and are purely creatures of unhinged decadence and indulgence.

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Janus

Posted: Wed, Jul 07 2010, 1:16 AM

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Joined: 24 Jun 2010

AxlLeigh wrote:

Just saying "4th Edition" in a mirror over and over will make Tormak appear and beat you with a 3e core rulebook.

I'm just sayin'.

a 3e book? he hasn't converted to pathfinder yet? for shame

_Kip

Posted: Wed, Jul 07 2010, 1:24 AM

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Joined: 18 Jun 2010
Location: Verge Vendor Region

AxlLeigh wrote:

Just saying "4th Edition" in a mirror over and over will make Tormak appear and beat you with a 3e core rulebook.

I'm just sayin'.

I'd just take my stack of RP books along with my mountain of minis to decrease my THAC0. Granted, after running a hobby shop for years, I'd hope I'd pick up on a couple of those things and systems. And yes, I do stand by the improvements of Fourth Edition of 3.x. Consider it a war if you like, but I do not. Simply looking through materials and mechanics for a great many games (Do you know how amazingly hard it is to ram another ship in Babylon 5's table top game?) I like what they've done with Fourth. As such, if someone else calls me out on my opinion I will be more than willing to express the reason I have such an opinion.

But, no worries. All talking is in good fun (I hope). Spreading knowledge and lore of concepts and ideas that many may miss or not know for one reason or another. Oh ... and if it was missed for some reason, I was agreeing with the Blackdragon12121 in that a PC spell used to summon a Succubus makes no sense for it to be a melee mob.

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TormakSaber

Posted: Wed, Jul 07 2010, 2:34 AM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

I don't have an issue with 4e's game mechanics. I have an issue with the lore changes in 4e which were designed to dumb down the game and setting, shunt the setting 100 years in the future to make the past irrelevant, and to re invent several dozens of factions and deities to fit their idea of a new, 'dangerous world'. Call me old and stubborn but I really, really, really don't like it, not to mention some of the monster changes upheaving 3.5 canon, and many loose threads in 3.5 (Obould's Kingdom-Of-Many-Arrows?) being left to rot and never covered again.

Pathfinder is great.

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_Kip

Posted: Wed, Jul 07 2010, 4:31 AM

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Joined: 18 Jun 2010
Location: Verge Vendor Region

TormakSaber wrote:

Very true with what they did to FR. It is more of an attempt to turn FR into Eberron. Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of Eberron and have some base issues with FR (mechanics built upon decades of lore updates). It is (in my opinion) the by-product of the decades of build-up finally getting 'cleaned up'. Many things will change, and most people will not like them. I have no issue with a system changing as much as the excuse they are trying to use for FR's change in fourth. The spell plague, in place of just stating what they are doing mechanically and that not all lore will mesh up perfecting. ... But no, Spell Plague ... an excuse why they changed the mechanics, not the actual reason (for FR lore purposes). So ... I can see where you're coming from in disliking FR's fourth edition lore. I even agree with you on it being rather off (for FR). I do, however, like a lot of the base changes they've made to the system. Alignments are no longer mechanically bound (no more detect good, smite evil, so forth), you just are what you are and do what you think your character would do. Reduced impact of skills in RP. And the two biggest improvements in my opinion; 1) No more mechanics to dictate RP and events (you get to use your imagination now and the game offers room for such things to take place instead of books upon books of finite rules and regulations) and 2) Party's power-level compared to one another is now roughly equal. No more Wizard owning the entire campaign as everyone else in the party sits back and watches (Example).

Granted, that is rather very off topic.

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Drannok

Posted: Wed, Jul 07 2010, 6:15 AM

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Joined: 23 Aug 2007

At least 4e is very easy too build stuff with, such that it's not difficult at all too just use the 3.5 Lore with homebrew effects int he 4e mechanics.

You can essentially play a 4e game out of the 3.5 FR sourcebooks, with a bit of planning and creative juices.

I'm working on converting the 3.0 Attack on Myth Drannor adventure guide that came with Pool of Radiance: Myth Drannor too 4e. (( One of the worst cpu DnD games ever, but a rather good PnP adventure tied to it))

Getting sent too Myth Drannor at roughly level 6ish makes for a very scary, intense adventure. If your players tray, they learn -very- quickly this isn't a low level area, but it's written in such a way too encourage exploration if it's done intelligently and carefully, and can be extremely rewarding.

Plus, watching the look on your players faces when they awaken an Alhoon at level sevenish, and then it simply rushes past them too get out of a tomb it's been stuck in for ages is always worth it.

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TormakSaber

Posted: Wed, Jul 07 2010, 6:18 AM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

Quote:

I do, however, like a lot of the base changes they've made to the system. Alignments are no longer mechanically bound (no more detect good, smite evil, so forth), you just are what you are and do what you think your character would do. Reduced impact of skills in RP. And the two biggest improvements in my opinion; 1) No more mechanics to dictate RP and events (you get to use your imagination now and the game offers room for such things to take place instead of books upon books of finite rules and regulations) and 2) Party's power-level compared to one another is now roughly equal.

You can do this in 3.5 too, but it takes a competent DM and competent players, and not the sourcebook shoved down your throat.

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Xaviera

Posted: Wed, Jul 07 2010, 14:24 PM

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Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Location: Temple of Love

Chillmarrow wrote:

They work on raw passion, dreams, and desires and use those with absolutely no goal in mind except to feed. In other words, chaotic evil.

Shade of Blue wrote:

Succubi are chaotic because they do not serve any far-flung purpose (like an Erinyes does) and are purely creatures of unhinged decadence and indulgence.

They are demons, which I see as basically creatures of lust incarnate. There are all sorts of lusts, but the succubi embody sexual, carnal lusts. By their actions, they attempt to get more people to give in to those 'sinful' lusts, thereby increasing the amount of chaos/evil in the world. I could imagine some sort of chaotic good embodiment of lust (like... Xavi

) but it's much easier to do what succubi do when you have no regard for the consequences or the well-being of the victim. They don't plan (more than 24 hours ahead, probably) and dont serve any overarching goal. Demons are quite simply generally short-sighted and self-centered, which is why they are chaotic and don't take well to hierarchies. Devils are also creatures of lust (of various types) but are much more rational, calculating and manipulative.

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HellScourge

Posted: Wed, Jul 07 2010, 16:00 PM

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Joined: 17 Jan 2007
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Or to put it into another perspective:

Succubi screw whoever they want for whatever reason they want.

Erinyes plan these things ahead and use them to further their own goals.

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Vaylek

Posted: Wed, Jul 07 2010, 16:12 PM

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Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia

I read the first half of this thread, saw the word Pathfinder, and had to post this:

PATHFINDER IS FRICKIN' AMAZING! EVERYONE GO FIND A GROUP AND PLAY IT!

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Blackdragon12121

Posted: Wed, Jul 07 2010, 16:50 PM

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Joined: 12 Jun 2006

So taking the lore into account, could we give the succubus a few spells to cast before it runs in there with its whip?

TormakSaber

Posted: Wed, Jul 07 2010, 19:43 PM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

Vaylek wrote:

I read the first half of this thread, saw the word Pathfinder, and had to post this:

PATHFINDER IS FRICKIN' AMAZING! EVERYONE GO FIND A GROUP AND PLAY IT!

It's just 3.75, man. It's great but all it is , is 3.5 with a coat of paint on the classes, mostly.

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Vaylek

Posted: Sat, Jul 10 2010, 0:22 AM

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Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia

TormakSaber wrote:

Vaylek wrote:

I read the first half of this thread, saw the word Pathfinder, and had to post this:

PATHFINDER IS FRICKIN' AMAZING! EVERYONE GO FIND A GROUP AND PLAY IT!

It's just 3.75, man. It's great but all it is , is 3.5 with a coat of paint on the classes, mostly.

Yeah but in my opinion that's all that was needed to make it a 5 star RPG system. They balanced everything really well (fighters, divine power, rangers etc.) and I prefer the new grappling system. Most importantly, they carried the torch for the d20 system, which would have quickly vanished from store shelves everywhere with the onset of the dreaded 4th edition.

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