|
|
|
Page 1 of 1
|
[ 48 posts ] |
|
|
Mobile_Svensk
|
 Posted: Sun, Jan 03 2010, 21:53 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
|
|
It just struck me ...A question...
is it possible to make Tiefling/Aasimar/Genasi Halflings or Elves or gnomes?
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
|
|
|
|
 |
|
HellScourge
|
Posted: Sun, Jan 03 2010, 21:56 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Location: GMT+1
|
|
Tiefling subrace = outsider
Aasimar sub race = outsider
Genasi su race = outsider
You always will be an outsider, per mechanics at least, even if your original race is halfling, elf or gnome.
Although the Tiefling Elves are called different, forgot the name for them.
But yes, it is possible.
_________________ "Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong." "I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder." TeroSNS wrote: Hello Everyone [...] I like tentacles [...] 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Terra_777
|
Posted: Sun, Jan 03 2010, 21:57 PM |
|
|
Administrative Developer
Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Location: Sweden
|
HellScourge wrote: Although the Tiefling Elves are called different, forgot the name for them.
Fey'ri. I'm quite sure you need DM approval to call yourself a fey'ri though.
_________________
Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Silvarus
|
Posted: Sun, Jan 03 2010, 22:02 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
|
Very_Svensk wrote: It just struck me ...A question...
is it possible to make Tiefling/Aasimar/Genasi Halflings or Elves or gnomes? If you ask if the template can be applied to them:
On Amia: Yes
Anywhere else: No
_________________
Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dakotaen
|
Posted: Sun, Jan 03 2010, 22:05 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Location: Denmark
|
Terra_777 wrote: HellScourge wrote: Although the Tiefling Elves are called different, forgot the name for them. Fey'ri. I'm quite sure you need DM approval to call yourself a fey'ri though. I thought fey'ri were descendants of sun elves who fornicated with devils, or something.
_________________
Profiles: DakoDako & ElWacko
Characters: Currently trying my best to stick to Beridoc Brushgale
|
|
|
|
|
|
Maias227
|
Posted: Sun, Jan 03 2010, 22:21 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Location: Denmark (GMT+1)
|
|
Yes, on Amia there is base elven tieflings though these are not Fey'ri. Fey'ri are the specific decendants of a sun elven noble house which bred elves with demons much to the horror of everybody else. So yes DM-approval for those.
Though I'll blankly admit it doesn't fit with lore at all though that you can get get base elven tieflings/halflings/gnomes
_________________
...Hereof follows that the social contract is only beneficial as long as all have something and none have too much...
- Rousseau Book 1 Chapter 9 in "The Social Contract"
|
|
|
|
|
|
IronAngel
|
Posted: Sun, Jan 03 2010, 22:24 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
|
|
Sure it does. That's how it originally was in Planescape AFAIK, and Races of Faerûn makes it quite clear that Genasi (and logically, other Planetouched) exist among other races, even if they're not "true Genasi" (meaning "Genasi" is human, and WotC didn't bother to introduce the different races because they're probably more rare).
It's not really Amia's screw-up that you can have Planetouched of any base race. It's more like WotC's screw-up that you can't.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
|
|
|
|
|
|
-Cloak-and-Dagger-
|
Posted: Sun, Jan 03 2010, 22:27 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Location: England
|
|
In the Races of Faerun sourcebook - where the stats of these races comes from - in each of the Genasi sections it mentions demihumans. The one I know for sure is that there are Earth 'Genasi' Gnomes. I think Fire 'Genasi' Halflings, and Water 'Genasi' Elves. But it says they are not "true" Genasi, because Genasi are elementally planetouched humans. Theyre something else, that happens to be suspiciously similar. But its never elaborated on.
Bleh, Ive been ninjad by Iron while I was writing this. But Im posting it anyway!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Maias227
|
Posted: Sun, Jan 03 2010, 22:28 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Location: Denmark (GMT+1)
|
|
No it doesn't fit being commonly available as a subrace. I am not saying these things don't happen at all, but they do not happen so often it should be available as a scripted subrace because that in my eyes says something about how rare they are.
They're not common, nor should they be, they should be request stuff.
_________________
...Hereof follows that the social contract is only beneficial as long as all have something and none have too much...
- Rousseau Book 1 Chapter 9 in "The Social Contract"
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yurell
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 0:31 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
|
Very_Svensk wrote: It just struck me ...A question...
is it possible to make Tiefling/Aasimar/Genasi Halflings or Elves or gnomes?
Technically possible although rather unlikely.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
|
|
|
|
|
|
IronAngel
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 1:04 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
|
Maias227 wrote: No it doesn't fit being commonly available as a subrace. I am not saying these things don't happen at all, but they do not happen so often it should be available as a scripted subrace because that in my eyes says something about how rare they are.
They're not common, nor should they be, they should be request stuff. That's not what you said, though! You said: Quote: Though I'll blankly admit it doesn't fit with lore at all though that you can get get base elven tieflings/halflings/gnomes
Which seems to mean: "according to lore, demihuman Planetouched do not exist."
Whether or not they're common is another matter. An individual PC cannot be condemned as unfitting based on rarity, because one PC is never common or uncommon; it's one PC.
Though honestly, I doubt they're much more uncommon than human Planetouched, if you think about it without WotC bias. Dwarves live under mountains where there are portals to the Plane of Earth. Elves are in much closer contact to the other planes than humans, typically. Not to even mention aquatic elves. I'd be surprised if there weren't more aquatic elf water genasi than human water genasi. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yurell
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 1:07 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
|
IronAngel wrote: Quote: Though I'll blankly admit it doesn't fit with lore at all though that you can get get base elven tieflings/halflings/gnomes Which seems to mean: "according to lore, demihuman Planetouched do not exist." I disagree with your interpretation, Iron, since he seems to be indicating what he said in that other quote you have quoted judging by the word I've emphasised.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
|
|
|
|
|
|
IronAngel
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 1:09 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
|
|
I'm not sure what you mean. "Base elven tieflings/halflings/gnomes" (ignoring the mixed up order of the terms) refers to Planetouched that use a demihuman as the base race. How does the word base have anything to do with the larger meaning of the sentence? >_>
I suppose he could have meant "it doesn't fit with lore that you, the players of Amia, can get such PCs." But that's rather obscure, because what's available as a playable race is not a lore matter but one of social engineering. It may not fit lore that there should be more elven genasi than human genasi, but that's a whole seperate matter. You wouldn't say "it doesn't fit lore that you can get chaotic dwarves" or "it doesn't fit lore that you can get honest Luskans" simply because they're more uncommon than not.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Last edited by IronAngel on Mon, Jan 04 2010, 1:13 AM, edited 1 time in total.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yurell
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 1:11 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
|
IronAngel wrote: I'm not sure what you mean. "Base elven tieflings/halflings/gnomes" (ignoring the mixed up order of the terms) refers to Planetouched that use a demihuman as the base race. How does the word base have anything to do with the larger meaning of the sentence? >_>
Having it as a base race in Amia is having it as a "commonly available as a subrace" as Maias was saying. It's probably this use of the word that has caused confusion.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
|
|
|
|
|
|
IronAngel
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 1:16 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
|
|
Ah, right. Well, I suppose Maias can clarify his meaning himself, but he won't escape my grill regardless: if his meaning was the latter, he has to account for the latter part of my previous post (which I edited in). I doubt that's the meaning, because they're never called "base races" but subraces (or templates), and the place of the word doesn't suggest anything like that, IMO. Maias also used the word the way I interpreted it earlier in this topic, and spoke of scripted subraces in another context, apparently making the distinction. If we are to be precise!
You're in for a debate, Dane!
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
|
|
|
|
|
|
ainjyll
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 1:47 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
|
|
On a quick sidetrack... what about using a skin for a specific purpose? To clarify, I have an Aasimar that I recently started that has a half-orc skin on him because he's over 6'6" tall and built like a brick ****house. I used the skin to represent that, even though he's basically human.
_________________  "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
|
|
|
|
|
|
bluntpencil2001
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 3:45 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Scotland
|
I think that generally, Dwarf Earth genasi should be more common than Human ones, as should Aquatic Elf Water Genasi etc etc...
...unless...
Humans are the only race which can breed with other races or outsiders...
... and produce offspring which can reproduce reliably.
For instance, a Half-Celestial Gnome could be born infertile, unable to produce later Aasimar, much like a mule (horse-donkey mix) in real life is often infertile.
At least in standard DnD, this would be a semi-reasonable explanation. Personally I prefer a template applicable to all races.
Of note is the fact that half-Dragons of any race tend to be fertile, going with the above idea, if the myths about sorcerers are true.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yurell
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 4:05 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
|
bluntpencil2001 wrote: I think that generally, Dwarf Earth genasi should be more common than Human ones, as should Aquatic Elf Water Genasi etc etc...
...unless...
Humans are the only race which can breed with other races or outsiders...
... and produce offspring which can reproduce reliably.
For instance, a Half-Celestial Gnome could be born infertile, unable to produce later Aasimar, much like a mule (horse-donkey mix) in real life is often infertile.
At least in standard DnD, this would be a semi-reasonable explanation.
It would also, afaik, be wrong. The Planetouched Template can be applied to any race, and it describes them in the MM as having an outsider ancestry, meaning that there was obviously numerous examples of successful copulation, first generation and onwards.
I could see demihuman planetouched being rarer, due to the fact that demihumans are rarer, but when compared to the population size I fail to see any compelling reason for planetouched demihumans to be more or less rare than planetouched humans (again, relative to population).
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mobile_Svensk
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 10:37 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
|
|
A halfling tiefling, would't they be able to get 22 DEX on creation?
Halfling can get 20 At start, (Since they have +2 Dex modifier Bioware style)
And then you add +2 from the tiefling...
True or false?
Edit:: Nope, it's not possible. But it was intresting to test.
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
Last edited by Mobile_Svensk on Mon, Jan 04 2010, 10:41 AM, edited 1 time in total.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yurell
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 10:40 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
|
Very_Svensk wrote: A halfling tiefling, would't they be able to get 22 DEX on creation?
Halfling can get 20 At start, (Since they have +2 Dex modifier Bioware style)
And then you add +2 from the tiefling...
True or false?
Nope, they lose racial bonuses and get changed to Outsider. It says it in big, flashing, neon-green letters on the subrace page.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
|
|
|
|
|
|
IronAngel
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 10:52 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
|
ainjyll wrote: On a quick sidetrack... what about using a skin for a specific purpose? To clarify, I have an Aasimar that I recently started that has a half-orc skin on him because he's over 6'6" tall and built like a brick ****house. I used the skin to represent that, even though he's basically human.
I am not sure what the other DMs think. There was a time when it was stated that Planetouched of other base races are there to represent the different shapes and sizes of human Planetouched.
Considering you don't get your racial bonuses, and your creature type changes, it's probably OK if you must do it. An elf model Air Genasi or half-orc model Earth Genasi does make sense. In the past, it has been OK-ish and not enforced. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
|
|
|
|
|
|
bluntpencil2001
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 12:14 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Scotland
|
Yurell wrote: bluntpencil2001 wrote: I think that generally, Dwarf Earth genasi should be more common than Human ones, as should Aquatic Elf Water Genasi etc etc...
...unless...
Humans are the only race which can breed with other races or outsiders...
... and produce offspring which can reproduce reliably.
For instance, a Half-Celestial Gnome could be born infertile, unable to produce later Aasimar, much like a mule (horse-donkey mix) in real life is often infertile.
At least in standard DnD, this would be a semi-reasonable explanation. It would also, afaik, be wrong. The Planetouched Template can be applied to any race, and it describes them in the MM as having an outsider ancestry, meaning that there was obviously numerous examples of successful copulation, first generation and onwards. I could see demihuman planetouched being rarer, due to the fact that demihumans are rarer, but when compared to the population size I fail to see any compelling reason for planetouched demihumans to be more or less rare than planetouched humans (again, relative to population). There's a planetouched template in the MM? I don't think so... In the MM, Planetouched gives Aasimar and Tieflings as races with human blood(just like Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are races with human blood, not templates), not templates, whereas half-Celestial and half-Fiend are templates.
It does say that these are the most common varieties, which could imply non-human planetouched, but it could also imply human planetouched who have outsider ancestry other than Celestial or Fiendish, such as Djinn, for example. It's probably left vague on purpose.
I fully agree, non-human planetouched should be included, although, if they are not, there are reasonable explanations why, such as fertility of certain breeds of half-Fiend and the like.
As far as standard DnD goes, itis sufficiently vague to leave it up to the campaign world, and Amia seems to go for the all races idea.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yurell
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 12:23 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
|
|
I suggest reading pages 209 and 210 harder. The Planetouched section says nothing of having to be human, nor do the individual entries for Aasimar and Tiefling. It also states that the two started are simply the most common, and provides a template for each that can be added to any race.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
|
|
|
|
|
|
bluntpencil2001
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 12:36 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Scotland
|
|
Compare the Planetouched entry to the Half-Celestial entry.
One is formatted as a race, the other as a template.
All templates have a 'Creating a...' section. Planetouched is formatted as a race.
Furthermore, in the example statblock, it gives a
'Half-Celestial 9th Level Human Paladin
Medium Outsider (Augmented Humanoid, Native)'
whereas Aasimar does not list as an augmented human, but has Aasimar as the race
'Aasimar, 1st level Warrior
Medium Outsider (native)'
If you look at all the other templates, such as Vampire, Lich, Lycanthropes and Half-Dragons, they follow the half-Celestial pattern. Aasimar and Tiefling, although also mixed blood, follow the half-Elf pattern, as a race, not a template. They all refer to base creatures modified, whereas Aasimar is the base creature. In fact, you could have a Half-Celestial Aasimar if you really wanted, representing someone who was both human and celestial in origin, but more celestial.
Also, check page 293, 'Adding a Template', which states that every template has an example of the template being added to another race. Aasimar and Tiefling do not have another race, otherwise they would keep their human feat and skill points. Half-Celestials and Half-Fiends, and every other template, retains the original racial abilities.
Last edited by bluntpencil2001 on Mon, Jan 04 2010, 12:48 PM, edited 1 time in total.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yurell
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 12:47 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
|
|
Very well then, my apologies for the mistake.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
|
|
|
|
|
|
bluntpencil2001
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 12:48 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Scotland
|
Yurell wrote: Very well then, my apologies for the mistake.
No worries, in my opinion it should be a template. Actually, now that I check 'Adding a Template', you can have a Half-Celestial Half-Fiend Half-Elf, if your DM doesn't stab you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yurell
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 12:51 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
|
|
I still maintain, though, that there is nothing to suggest that other races cannot be Planetouched, merely that Aasimar and Tieflings are the most common (and given that humans are more common than most demihumans this seems rather expectable).
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
|
|
|
|
|
|
bluntpencil2001
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 12:54 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Scotland
|
Yurell wrote: I still maintain, though, that there is nothing to suggest that other races cannot be Planetouched, merely that Aasimar and Tieflings are the most common (and given that humans are more common than most demihumans this seems rather expectable).
Agreed, although the explanation can either mean non-humans can be planetouched or that humans can be planetouched by sources that are neither Celestial nor Fiendish, such as Genies, Elementals or even Slaad. It may be referring to human Genasi as a less common planetouched variant, for example.
In my opinion it probably means both, but any of the above are within reason, infertile Half-Celestial Elves being one such explanation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
IronAngel
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 14:29 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
|
|
Be that as it may, the primary source of FR lore on Planetouched, Races of Faerûn, clearly states there are Planetouched of other races. It's not in any way unclear.
You might also want to check the original (and therefore most credible) source of Planetouched: The Planewalker's Handbook, which is a Planescape book. I'm told it doesn't limit Genasi to humans.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
|
|
|
|
|
|
bluntpencil2001
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 14:41 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Scotland
|
IronAngel wrote: Be that as it may, the primary source of FR lore on Planetouched, Races of Faerûn, clearly states there are Planetouched of other races. It's not in any way unclear.
You might also want to check the original (and therefore most credible) source of Planetouched: The Planewalker's Handbook, which is a Planescape book. I'm told it doesn't limit Genasi to humans.
It has planetouched of other races, such as Fey'ri and Tanarruk, yes, but it is intentionally vague regarding planetouched non-humans with celestial ancestry, as well as non-human genasi.
It mentions 'rumours', which may or may not be true, and are largely unsubstantiated. It opens possibilities, but also gives a campaign the option to say that they are rumours only.
It mentions 'reputed' gnomes, dwarves, elves and halflings with celestial ancestry, but only 'reputed', not a certainty. It mentions possible Dwarf Earth Genasi... but then goes on to mention that the rumours have not been verified. It mentions possible Elf Air Genasi, but suggests this may just be Avariels mistaken for such. The closest to a clear statement is in the Water Genasi entry, saying that Aquatic Elves speak of a lost line of Elves that were mixed with servants of Deep Sashelas, but it does not verify this, although the language used implies that this legend is true. It also states however, that these sea-elf with outsider heritage are not true genasi... as true genasi must have human ancestry.
I don't have access to any Planescape books, not being a fan of the setting in general, but in Faerun, going by Races of Faerun, such genasi, for instance, are entirely possible, even probable, but not a certainty.
|
|
|
|
|
|
IronAngel
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 15:07 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
|
|
And that's how it should be. That's what 2e did: it offered theories, rumors and possibilities. That's also how I think we should treat any 3e material as well. It's all written by humans of our world, with different perspectives and agendas. The Forgotten Realms themselves are something else, and should be (methodologically) considered existing independent of individual descriptions. In a sense, it's even metaphysically true, because it's an abstract concept that exists in the imaginations of thousands of people. But whether we subscribe to such metaphysics or not, such a method is the only way to get a balanced view of the world.
So you need to study the Realms as if you studied a real, foreign world: we know there are rumors, and rumors are generally based on something. We know it's physically possible (considering the existance of some such demihuman races). From what we know of demihuman cultures and environments, it's also likely that it should happen just as much as in human culture. We also know RoF is not a comprehensive study of the planet, but rather certain highlights the authors thought would be useful in a game context and interesting enough to sell. It may be just as mistaken as any other account of Toril, if we treat it as a description of a living world rather than the definition of an imaginary world that ends where the book ends.
Therefore, I see no reason to assume there are no demihuman Planetouched in the Realms. The evidence suggests there are, and it also makes sense. By no means is it certain, but nothing is certain: the books may theoretically be mistaken about anything. The probability is high enough to act on.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
|
|
|
|
|
|
bluntpencil2001
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 15:28 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Scotland
|
IronAngel wrote: And that's how it should be. That's what 2e did: it offered theories, rumors and possibilities. That's also how I think we should treat any 3e material as well. It's all written by humans of our world, with different perspectives and agendas. The Forgotten Realms themselves are something else, and should be (methodologically) considered existing independent of individual descriptions. In a sense, it's even metaphysically true, because it's an abstract concept that exists in the imaginations of thousands of people. But whether we subscribe to such metaphysics or not, such a method is the only way to get a balanced view of the world.
So you need to study the Realms as if you studied a real, foreign world: we know there are rumors, and rumors are generally based on something. We know it's physically possible (considering the existance of some such demihuman races). From what we know of demihuman cultures and environments, it's also likely that it should happen just as much as in human culture. We also know RoF is not a comprehensive study of the planet, but rather certain highlights the authors thought would be useful in a game context and interesting enough to sell. It may be just as mistaken as any other account of Toril, if we treat it as a description of a living world rather than the definition of an imaginary world that ends where the book ends.
Therefore, I see no reason to assume there are no demihuman Planetouched in the Realms. The evidence suggests there are, and it also makes sense. By no means is it certain, but nothing is certain: the books may theoretically be mistaken about anything. The probability is high enough to act on.
Exactly my own position. I agree entirely, although, if in the unlikely event of every rumour being untrue, there are possible explanations, such as hybrid infertility as seen in mules, or something silly, like how Pig and Elephant DNA just don't mix a la South Park.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Maias227
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 18:34 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Location: Denmark (GMT+1)
|
|
I'm flattered that you started an argument about how to understand my post yet its Iron and Yurel, what should I expect? You two would form the perfect comitee for just about everything:)
As for what I mean;
I think Races of Faerûn leaves it too vaugerly about the existance and generally mess about the races when you get everything mixed with something else. Planetouched (outsiders) in my eyes ideally should be restricted to humans mostly whereas it does happen with other races but so rarely it is barely viable.
That also connects with the opinion that I don't think universal planetouched races should be available to player as a common subrace. As it is now picking a tiefling dwarf is quite easy and it is not even very clearly written out it is unlikely.
In my eyes outsiders common subraces should be restricted to humans only.
Also Iron I am not under the impression that Planescape is the default we follow when the realms lore don't cover it?
_________________
...Hereof follows that the social contract is only beneficial as long as all have something and none have too much...
- Rousseau Book 1 Chapter 9 in "The Social Contract"
|
|
|
|
|
|
IronAngel
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 19:22 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
|
|
Well, Planescape is where these things come from. Many of Amia's PCs come from Sigil, for example. It seems prudent to use it as a point of reference for what was the original intention.
But why do you think they would be rare? Why are humans more likely? Humans are humanoids as much as elves, dwarves, hin and gnomes. Neither their physique nor their culture have any specific traits that make them more likely to be Planetouched. In fact, if you consider Tanarruks and Fey'ri, there are probably less human Tieflings than either of those subraces. Why would it be any different for those variants not documented?
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
|
|
|
|
|
|
bluntpencil2001
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 20:23 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Scotland
|
IronAngel wrote: Well, Planescape is where these things come from. Many of Amia's PCs come from Sigil, for example. It seems prudent to use it as a point of reference for what was the original intention.
But why do you think they would be rare? Why are humans more likely? Humans are humanoids as much as elves, dwarves, hin and gnomes. Neither their physique nor their culture have any specific traits that make them more likely to be Planetouched. In fact, if you consider Tanarruks and Fey'ri, there are probably less human Tieflings than either of those subraces. Why would it be any different for those variants not documented?
I'd suggest that it be due to some sort of weird fantastical biological reason. That, and Races of Faerun says that all such planetouched are either so rare to be legendary, or non-existent. For instance, Earth genasi are specifically noted as being less fertile than the average human... so it may be possible that a half-Celestial Dwarf is very infertile, for instance.
The reasoning is correctly left to speculation, I guess. I say it's because human sperm is best. 
Last edited by bluntpencil2001 on Mon, Jan 04 2010, 21:50 PM, edited 1 time in total.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Shade of Blue
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 20:44 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Aug 2008
|
IronAngel wrote: Many of Amia's PCs come from Sigil, for example.
Sorry to sidetrack, but I've never heard this before. Is this an official server thing or a de facto statistic? _________________ Merrien wrote: Hee hee hee hee hee.... snakes wearing sweaters....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yurell
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 23:46 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
|
Shade of Blue wrote: IronAngel wrote: Many of Amia's PCs come from Sigil, for example. Sorry to sidetrack, but I've never heard this before. Is this an official server thing or a de facto statistic? I think it's because a lot of people say that they're from Sigil, even though it doesn't actually exist in FR it exists in FR (like Inevitables). bluntpencil2001 wrote: IronAngel wrote: But why do you think they would be rare? Why are humans more likely? Humans are humanoids as much as elves, dwarves, hin and gnomes. Neither their physique nor their culture have any specific traits that make them more likely to be Planetouched. In fact, if you consider Tanarruks and Fey'ri, there are probably less human Tieflings than either of those subraces. Why would it be any different for those variants not documented? I'd suggest that it be due to some sort of weird fantastical biological reason. That, and Races of Faerun says that all such planetouched are either so rare to be legendary, or non-existent. For instance, Earth genasi are specifically noted as being less fertile than the average human... so it may be possible that a half-Celestial Dwarf is very infertile, for instance. The reasoning is correctly left to speculation, I guess. I say it's because human sperm is best. And yet, we have examples with half-elf and half-orc of different 'races' producing viable offspring. Would this not indicate that these are the same species? So should they not be able to procreate with the same things that humans can? So for a reference point we have two other 'races' that should in theory, even without magical assistance, be able to produce offspring with Outsiders (note, I'm not a biologist ).
However, we also know that dragons can breed with just about everything, and that any race can become a Dragon Disciple - to become a Dragon Disciple means that your character has some draconic blood (note that it's not a 'requirement' of the class, it's an implication of having the class), and therefore if we don't start saying 'this race can't be a DD', we've established that half-dragons, at least, are genetically viable.
Note that, while it's entirely possible that the genes were 'attached' using magic (which seems rather likely give that they can mate with species that haven't been observed being capable of breeding with eachother), that doesn't mean it's entirely a magical effect, or a half-dragon would de in an ant-magic field by virtue of the fact its cells can't replicate properly.
Half-fiend and Half-celestial templates can be applied to any race, and we know that at least the human hybrids are viable (and this implies that both orc and elves are too, since they're the same species). Anything beyond that is conjecture from the core rules, but I'm sure FR books expand in more detail.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
|
|
|
|
|
|
bluntpencil2001
|
Posted: Mon, Jan 04 2010, 23:56 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Scotland
|
|
Yeah, pretty much... it might depend on the combination of races or anything. We don't need to know the precise reason, but there could very well be a good one.
It might be a good thing to find out, if you are a half-celestial elf loremaster, for instance, who wants to be a parent. Whooo... plot!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Bjorn
|
Posted: Tue, Jan 05 2010, 0:48 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 13 Feb 2009
|
|
Actually, how ever odd it sounds, but an sourcebook called "book of erotic fantasy" explains in some depth creations of half creatures.
For example, it states that dwarven genes arent compatible with anything else than dwarves, ergo you cant really find half dwarf (even tho some settings like warhammer for example have them)
Additional it states that genes of dragons, elementals and celestials are extremely superior to those of lesser races and tend to have bigger chance to make a mixblood than those of common races. For example, there is an chance that human-elven child wont happen due to genes, but it rarely fails with for example dragons or celestials being one of the parents.
However, its someone's view of fantasy world that might not hold water with what someone other might think of it.
_________________
I can be found as:
Tess Marbury - Girl from luskan
Erth'dar Songspinner - Drow bard
Celador Moonhelm - Elven merchant
Garambar of Hillsalar Hall - Dwarven sage
Moraina - Grumpy Monk
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yurell
|
Posted: Tue, Jan 05 2010, 0:50 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
|
Bjorn wrote: Actually, how ever odd it sounds, but an sourcebook called "book of erotic fantasy" explains in some depth creations of half creatures.
For example, it states that dwarven genes arent compatible with anything else than dwarves, ergo you cant really find half dwarf (even tho some settings like warhammer for example have them)
Additional it states that genes of dragons, elementals and celestials are extremely superior to those of lesser races and tend to have bigger chance to make a mixblood than those of common races. For example, there is an chance that human-elven child wont happen due to genes, but it rarely fails with for example dragons or celestials being one of the parents.
However, its someone's view of fantasy world that might not hold water with what someone other might think of it.
BoEF is not (frtunately or unfortunately, depending on your view) canon.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
|
|
|
|
|
|
P Three
|
Posted: Tue, Jan 05 2010, 2:10 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
|
|
Celadrin ("aasimar" elves) do exist, and so do the general "fey'ri" tiefling-elves. They're rare because elves are generally an insular race, and are much more likely to breed with a human than anything else.
And plane-touched aren't halfbreeds. Tieflings, aasimar, fey'ri, celadrin...they're not halfbloods. They're "touched". Mostly the base race, a little of the planar.
_________________ Bobo_Underhill wrote: Ley lines, y'all. Just let me go wrangle up my cowboy boots and lasso us up some magic.
Yee-haw! Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of EilistraeeDanika Nefzen: Druid of the EarthmotherDelia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm
|
|
|
|
|
|
Bjorn
|
Posted: Tue, Jan 05 2010, 10:26 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 13 Feb 2009
|
Yurell wrote: Bjorn wrote: text BoEF is not (frtunately or unfortunately, depending on your view) canon. I know its not canon, but that doesnt mean its not an valid idea or view of planetouched and racial genetics in general, since no other source on that subject exists.
_________________
I can be found as:
Tess Marbury - Girl from luskan
Erth'dar Songspinner - Drow bard
Celador Moonhelm - Elven merchant
Garambar of Hillsalar Hall - Dwarven sage
Moraina - Grumpy Monk
|
|
|
|
|
|
IronAngel
|
Posted: Tue, Jan 05 2010, 11:32 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
|
|
Moreover: it's not only crossbreeding that produces Planetouched. It could very well be due to a magical accident or the influence of the Planes. There are many Planetouched from the planes where there's permanent humanoid settlement, for example. Or if you travel through the Elemental Planes during pregnancy, there's a chance the kid is a Genasi.
For the record, half-dwarves do exist in the Realms. I seem to recall at least one such NPC. I am sure any standard races can probably crossbreed. They're just either not common, or don't get any special stats (that is, they're mechanically one or the other).
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yurell
|
Posted: Tue, Jan 05 2010, 12:00 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
|
Bjorn wrote: Yurell wrote: Bjorn wrote: text BoEF is not (frtunately or unfortunately, depending on your view) canon. I know its not canon, but that doesnt mean its not an valid idea or view of planetouched and racial genetics in general, since no other source on that subject exists. Just mentioning it, because the last time I tried using the BoEF Tormak came down on me like a herd of outraged catgirls. I find it's interesting because it's the onlybook available where the authors have thought about it from that angle.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
|
|
|
|
|
|
bluntpencil2001
|
Posted: Tue, Jan 05 2010, 17:10 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Scotland
|
IronAngel wrote: Moreover: it's not only crossbreeding that produces Planetouched. It could very well be due to a magical accident or the influence of the Planes. There are many Planetouched from the planes where there's permanent humanoid settlement, for example. Or if you travel through the Elemental Planes during pregnancy, there's a chance the kid is a Genasi.
For the record, half-dwarves do exist in the Realms. I seem to recall at least one such NPC. I am sure any standard races can probably crossbreed. They're just either not common, or don't get any special stats (that is, they're mechanically one or the other).
Derro have human and dwarf blood. It, like pig and elephant DNA, causes all sorts of trouble.
|
|
|
|
|
|
TormakSaber
|
Posted: Tue, Jan 05 2010, 17:34 PM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
|
|
Where did you see that? MM simply says Derro are "monstrous humanoids".
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yurell
|
Posted: Wed, Jan 06 2010, 1:00 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
|
TormakSaber wrote: Where did you see that? MM simply says Derro are "monstrous humanoids".
Look further down. MM: "Derro are degenerate and evil creatures of the underground, created from dwarf and human stock by some nameless deity of darkness and madness."
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
|
|
|
|
|
|
bluntpencil2001
|
Posted: Wed, Jan 06 2010, 11:09 AM |
|
|
Player
Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Location: Scotland
|
|
Dwarf/Human crossbreeds?
This is madness!
This is Sp...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Page 1 of 1
|
[ 48 posts ] |
|
Who is online |
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 34 guests |
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Login