AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

So i leveled a 20 mage only to find out imp expertise had been changed to a point where it's pretty much useless.
Why wasn't there a note or anything about this on the site? This cost me 2 feats.
By default, NWN allows spellcasting while using improved expertise. However, BioWare included a switch to disable it via scripting using spellhooking. So, my question is: Why wasn't there a note or something under "modifications" on the site?

... You got to level 20 before noticing it wasn't working?

To be more on topic; basic changes such as that (Difficulty Level, CR Visibility, etcetera), aren't posted; if only because there are so many of them and they're extremely easy to notice. If Expertise doesn't work, it'll stand out quite readily.

Expertise works fine though WonWon. At least it does for me.

You cannot use Expertise while casting spells, which was possible in vanilla NWN. For all intents and purposes, though, we're not talking of a "modification" as much as a "bug fix" or "blocking an exploit."

IronAngel wrote:

You cannot use Expertise while casting spells, which was possible in vanilla NWN.

Ah. I thought they meant for melee as a tasty treat in RP.

Well in this case. Imp Expertise is anything but useless now if you know how to use it.

I see no reason why something like that can't or shouldn't be put under the "feats" modifications list. If it's not the same as default, it likely should be there.

Cori wrote:

I see no reason why something like that can't or shouldn't be put under the "feats" modifications list. If it's not the same as default, it likely should be there.

I concur.

It is a good change, but should be advertised.

To avoid Attacks of Opportunity (which Expertise/Imp. Expertise was good for) from spellcasting in close proximity to an enemy, toggle Defensive Spellcasting mode. You get that for free with any casting class. You then have to pass a Concentration check to cast spells, with a DC of 15 + 4 + spell level. The +4 penalty for casting defensively in close proximity to an enemy is negated by the Combat casting feat.

You still have to worry about getting hit during the rest of the round, but you won't be an AoO magnet.

or just cast all your spells first, and turn on Improved Expertise when things start beating on you

Silvarus wrote:

Cori wrote:

I see no reason why something like that can't or shouldn't be put under the "feats" modifications list. If it's not the same as default, it likely should be there.

I concur.

It is a good change, but should be advertised.

I too agree

Give the poor person a rebuild for this great... injustice!

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Give the poor person a rebuild for this great... injustice!

I agree!
Also, expertise is a devilish feat and should be annihilated and burned to ash.

Yeah! Burning stuff fixes things.
The d00d should be offered a free rebuild though

Player Error does not make you eligible for a free rebuild. Expertise and IE have been changed to no longer work when casting for years now. It's your job to know what your feats do when you create the character.

And, might I add, thank god they changed expertise.

TormakSaber wrote:

Player Error does not make you eligible for a free rebuild. Expertise and IE have been changed to no longer work when casting for years now. It's your job to know what your feats do when you create the character.

And, might I add, thank god they changed expertise.

but, if its not in the list of things that have been changed, how would you know its been changed until you take it, and then need the rebuild when you realize its not the default?

Tormak, is everyone supposed to ask on the Build Thread every time they create a character if any one of their feats had been changed? It's not listed in the altered feats, which it probably should be, so how is one supposed to know?
There was no indication of a change at all.

Note: I'm neither against the change nor supporting the free rebuild.

Either try and figure out some way to make the best of it (by getting your caster some gear or buff spells which will be helpful when they're in Expertise mode) or get your character delevelled so you can get rid of Expertise, or just start over from scratch. It's your choice.

You can't just cry 'free rebuild' because you didn't notice until level 20 that expertise is toggled off by casting.

Yurell wrote:

Tormak, is everyone supposed to ask on the Build Thread every time they create a character if any one of their feats had been changed? It's not listed in the altered feats, which it probably should be, so how is one supposed to know?
There was no indication of a change at all.

Note: I'm neither against the change nor supporting the free rebuild.

It wasn't changed by us, it was changed along the lines of five patches ago by Bioware.

TormakSaber wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Tormak, is everyone supposed to ask on the Build Thread every time they create a character if any one of their feats had been changed? It's not listed in the altered feats, which it probably should be, so how is one supposed to know?
There was no indication of a change at all.

Note: I'm neither against the change nor supporting the free rebuild.

It wasn't changed by us, it was changed along the lines of five patches ago by Bioware.

Not quite. Bioware included a spellhook, basically to make it easier on the module designer. The spellhook disables expertise while casting, but it's not the default way the feat works. Enabling the spellhook changes the way the feat works from bioware default, the default state allows casting while using expertise. As a reference:

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Expertise

it explains in the notes section. If the feat was changed using the spellhook, people are going to need to know.

This is something you would have noticed pre level 20, in any case. Sorry. No free rebuild.

TormakSaber wrote:

This is something you would have noticed pre level 20, in any case. Sorry. No free rebuild.

Personally i agree with what is inherently implied by mentioning his lvl. This is something you would have noticed long before lvl 20 that wasnt working, 10AC is a huge difference. Especially for a mage that doesnt have many other options for getting any other form of AC, they dont get to wear plate armor and shields. It almost seems like s/he waited till epic lvls to turn around and say hey you guys made a mistake i need a rebuild. If there's a mistake, it needs to be brought to the DM's right away, not when it's convenient. Be that as it may, that's not necessarily the case. Do you have any reasons why you waited so long to tell the DM team about the problem Lethaux? Because it just doesn't look good waiting so long and then going hey i need a rebuild.

TormakSaber wrote:

This is something you would have noticed pre level 20, in any case. Sorry. No free rebuild.

I agree with the no free rebuild, but can this please be added to the feats section?

TheNamelessUnknown1 wrote:

This is something you would have noticed long before lvl 20 that wasnt working, 10AC is a huge difference.

You don't notice it from the AC change, you notice it because every single spell you cast after toggeling expertise mode on will give you a "(improved) expertise mode cancelled" text floating above your character...

so basically, if it didnt bother after the 5th time it appeared it should never bother you.
Especially not if you take the improved version after having seen it the levels from the moment you took the regular version.

WonWon wrote:

... You got to level 20 before noticing it wasn't working?

It is entirely possible that the Original Poster did not take the feats until this later stage of the characters life.

If this is the case, delevelling the amount required could be the easiest option.

TheNamelessUnknown1 wrote:

Personally i agree with what is inherently implied by mentioning his lvl. This is something you would have noticed long before lvl 20 that wasnt working, 10AC is a huge difference. Especially for a mage that doesnt have many other options for getting any other form of AC, they dont get to wear plate armor and shields. It almost seems like s/he waited till epic lvls to turn around and say hey you guys made a mistake i need a rebuild. If there's a mistake, it needs to be brought to the DM's right away, not when it's convenient. Be that as it may, that's not necessarily the case. Do you have any reasons why you waited so long to tell the DM team about the problem Lethaux? Because it just doesn't look good waiting so long and then going hey i need a rebuild.

Not going to mingle in the discussion being far too new to this place, but would just like to add my own observation that he/she actually never asked for a free rebuild, it was Uncle-Opustus who suggested it

Though i also like O'Raghailligh's comment.

I'll rebuild to Imp. Expertise Spammage. Adds a much needed +10 to spam effectivety, while snatching -10 from your soul.

I like the fact that i just spent 15 minutes trying to say O'raillaighs name out loud but failed completely.

I've just just decided that it's like an extreme version of O'Reilly. Or maybe a drunk version? I'll have to ask an irishman when he's drunk.

Complicated way of saying O'rly?

Could be, ask Shauny-Shaun!

MoshingChris wrote:

I like the fact that i just spent 15 minutes trying to say O'raillaighs name out loud but failed completely.

You also failed to spell it

O'raillaighs <- wrong
O'Raghailligh

Dakotaen wrote:

I've just just decided that it's like an extreme version of O'Reilly. Or maybe a drunk version? I'll have to ask an irishman when he's drunk.

*totally off topic*

You are correct sir....it is the original historical old ancient umm...prehistoric name that O'Reilly, and all other variant spellings of, are derived from.

O'Raghailligh wrote:

Dakotaen wrote:

I've just just decided that it's like an extreme version of O'Reilly. Or maybe a drunk version? I'll have to ask an irishman when he's drunk.

*totally off topic*

You are correct sir....it is the original historical old ancient umm...prehistoric name that O'Reilly, and all other variant spellings of, are derived from.

O'rly

I'm doing the happy dance.

so give the man a free delevel.

Bioware hasn't changed that spellcasting breaks Expertise as standard, they just changed that there is a toggle hardcoded into Expertise so that servers can change that at their convenience. This needs to be added to the sidebar, because it is indeed a custom setting and you can't expect people to know it before they take the feat.

I'm still against giving back any levels, firstly because the OP didn't ask for it and secondly because it is a thing of principle. Allow this one, and you open the floodgates.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

so give the man a free delevel.

Delevels are always free.

Same thing happened to me!

Except...ya know...I tested it as soon as I got it, found it didn't work, and immediately deleveled that one level, to about 1 xp short of the new level, and continued with my life.

If you just took it, and realized it doesn't work, there's no problem in delevelling a tiny bit.

If you took it way back, and -just now- realized it doesn't work...well mate, that's tough cookies >.>

Expertise/Imp expertise ..(whine)

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