Basically what this thread is between the lines is a plea for a bit of common sense injected into roleplay. To see that rejected outright on an RP server in favour of "raw engine" is pretty sad. Personally, seeing things like

just tells me that I should extend an absolute minimum effort to roleplay and go mechanical as soon as possible with people who express these sentiments, because it'll be a button mash fest no matter what I type, the moment things don't go their way. I'm fine with that, btw. I'm very good at button mashing and will probably win. The usual line of argumentaton goes something along the lines of "you couldn't win mechanically, so you have to resort to roleplay, and since I can't see that in engine, I don't have to accept it, go mechanical" or something. It's perfectly understandable and fine to think that way, but it entails the crucial, typical flaw in thinking people who want to RP through fights can't work the game engine. It entails the flaw that, by insisting on mechanics, you are giving yourself the advantage.

You're really not.

You're giving the other guy the full carte blanche to play completely dirty.

That said, I'm not going to make any mechanical arguments for the above. It's rather pointless when myths like "casters are overpowered", "HIPS is imba" and "pure rogue is underpowered" so heavily persist in the playerbase. If you think you need endless form shifting to "win", nothing I say or do is going to persaude you otherwise.


The way I read the OP, the core point of this thread is suspension of disbelief, or lack there-of. In that light, my reasoning for a minimum time to shift is not mechanical, it's not supported by DnD rules, it's quite simple:

Try to imagine someone turning into a wyrmling, then a rakshasa, then a giant golem without picturing the Looney Tunes. Because all I see is "poof!", then change and am told I should be taking that ICly. So I try, oh god I really try, and all I hear is Bugs Bunny's and Daffy Duck's voices in my head the entire time, while the LT theme song is running in loop; And when it's all over, Porky Pig stutters "That's all folks!".

'course, you could fix that by macroing an emote of what a half-second shift actually looks like to the eye of the beholder. It'd help, a lot.

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GSID: Piranha, Borntokill, Free Beer, Bad Luck Inc.
Player of: Nothing atm. Busy elsewhere.

Grell: I would like to hire the Kossuth maid service. Do you do waste disposal? I've a list of homes you could visit

This seems... out of place with your entire point. So you're okay with them spamming shifting if they emote? Or you just think that this is substantially better?

Then what the heck is it supported by? I've paid it nearly no mind, it's just buffing. What you're describing isn't the mental image or level of disgust I have to buy into. It just doesn't bother me. I don't think it bothers a lot of people. I'm sorry we differ starkly in opinion, but I just can't agree that it's in need of editing to make more sense to you. I've had talking books hit on my character for months at a stretch, I shrug off a lot of things as "weird shit" and move on. You're exactly right that it's a question of suspension of disbelief, but seeing a shifter do a transformation with the speed of a Power Ranger isn't one of those things that rocks me out of my experience.

Different people play for different reasons. Just let them play- it's not like they're hurting you. They're just annoying you on this point, and you already disclaimed your reasoning as nonmechanical and non-rules-based. If it's neither mechanics nor rules-based, then why does it demand a mechanical change? Isn't it entirely feasible that a valid 'no' might exist from the rules-and-mechanics side of the argument? That's more or less what's been presented.

I think the best answer I can give is: Yeah, it's kinda goofy. Just blow it off and be cool, man.

Besides, Yoss already got best answer.

And more to the point: Thank you OP for the other suggestions. They're not bad.

_________________
~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear.
~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt.
~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.

Electricity in sea water isn't as silly as you being able to run around and fight in normal motion just because you're wearing an ugly helmet and a Freedom belt, not that the latter is enforced either.
Then we get into stuff like the electrical resistance of saline versus a humanoid, and whether a set of fullplate or chainmail would be an effective Faraday cage.

People porting from the Darkness to the FGK might want to think about emoting the bends, to which I think there is no item resistance. At least if you port from
the sea to the Manor you can shrug off the problem of being a soaking wet person in arctic condition on the grounds you'll be wearing some Cold DR gear for there anyway, but you ought to be a little crackly in the joints of your armour. Stiff cloak etc.

Or it's magic.

I always thought the sahuagin using whips underwater was pretty silly, too.

Could be changed, but I don't see why it should and having played a shifter before the buff, I'm happy for the shifters finally being useful as they are. Supporting shifting with emotes is always nice, of course.


The size thing is a good point to consider. A quick test I sometimes do: Would a DM object? Then maybe I shouldn't do it even without a DM on. The iron golem on a boat is a bit too tedious to work out if it would work or not. Realistically, it would crash through, but realistically, a boat could also take the weight of a golem so it's just a matter of distributing the load ... Since we don't know what the boat is made from or how thick the supporting beams are ... Uggh ... We also walk over so many small and old dungeon bridges with bottomless pits below them, I'd say the ground is typically sturdy enough for everything that can stand there.


Except it does tell you where they are ... This is mostly a mechanical thing in the engine, one that has been discussed millions of times and we're finally somewhat closer to a solution if even "Bioware" True Sight can be hacked by Terra.


I don't agree that they are "long gone". 30feet = 10m, that's like 2 seconds of full-speed running, maybe 3 seconds from a cold start. And we're talking about mundane running here, not barbarian/monk/epic character running. So, they'd be gone for 3 seconds or half a round at most if they pull this trick on some mundane street kid.
On Amia, shadow jump takes an action, so is a bit slower actually. Seems okay to me, even if PnP disagrees.


It's magic.


Isn't there some official rule on giving others time to react? Anyway, it's common courtesy. And if you're in a PvPish situation, it's very likely that you're doing "opposed actions", so all you can do is *tries to grab him*.

Regards
Ts

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Ralghok & Hazamir "The Weasel"

I think you're off the mark, BTK. My arguments have nothing to do with what I would do; I think rules are for those who need their support, and the rest of us can get along. The first and most important purpose of rules is to protect individuals from other players' and DMs' arbitrary ideas and preferences. That is why they must be clear and based on something fundamental and constant, such as the game engine or explicit formulations in the journal/rules forum.

A plea for common sense is fair. But as this topic has shown, the exact points listed in the OP are not common sense - the two are outright fallacious, and I don't think anyone has yet understood what the other three even mean. And that's a common problem with "common sense": everybody thinks their interpretation is obvious and that others should agree, when in reality there are a dozen opinions on the topic, half of them justified. Going by the engine is not ignoring RP - it is taking the empirical reality seriously and making IC conclusions on that basis.

The OP's electricity example is a case in point. Lightning magic does not respect physics on the best days, so why would it do that underwater? It is magic that works according to a rule, and it is not at all clear whether it resembles real-world electricity in its behaviour. Offensive magic has its target, damage, saves and other conditions carefully calculated by the game. If individual players start arbitrarily assuming additional effects, there is no end to it. What if you cast Lightning Bolt from a metallic rod, that even happens to be wet? Do you take the damage yourself? And more importantly: now that you've made this interpretation (which is possible but not at all necessary or obvious), how will you enforce it on others? Do you refuse to recognize that you got hit by Chain Lightning in PvP? Do you demand that the opponent damage himself for the same amount (I think the rest menu has that option)? It is no different from the Party PvP setting, IMO: you don't get to claim you were burned by your team mate's fireball, because you really weren't and they would not have made that mistake. If they graciously want to admit that may have been the case, that is in their power to do - not yours.

Assuming arbitrary effects beyond the game rules is not "fair RP" - it is a form of godgaming that uses against other players things that they had no obligation to know or agree to.

I don't think WYSIWYG is the final word or the best way to flavor a given situation. But it is the only general rule that puts people on the same page and protects players from the whims of others. If there is no written rule, how do you solve disagreements on how spells actually work - unless by reference to the game engine?

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Mechanical. I don't think we should shoot shifters in the foot and change this. If someone wants to rp it taking minutes they are quite welcome to but we can't and (I think) won't enforce this.
People have already damaged floors though when shifting in Umberhulks in the wrong places but that can only be done if a DM sees it and has the time to respond.
This too can't be mechanicly enforced.



I don't see your point. Shadowjumps don't take time so they would give a head start ingame fine.



While I agree with the sentiment (If not the wording) as that is how it was described in the planescape books (without hitting the caster though) I don't feel this is worth re-scripting the electricity spells myself. There are a lot of things I'd like to see added/ changed first.



Not enforceble without a DM present. If you feel this is being done to your characters obvious detriment screeny it and bring it to the attention of the team please.

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Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

It's good to know certain people go straight to mechanical dispite the fact others are clearly prefering a text based interaction. I'll be sure to keep this in mind in all of my characters.

This thread, far as I've seen, started with the intent to set some reason and common sense into people that like being trigger happy to auto win. It's failed in that purpose, so the only thing one can reply to all of these falacy accusations and - thus far - rather obnoxiously stubborn disagreements is that what you give is what you get in return. Dms can't be expected to be referees in absolutely everything. In fact, I believe a good deal of them have given up, based on the ammount of silly I constantly see around the server. In the end, if you provide Cheese Cake, expect a factory of it in return from the one you're cheesing.

On the matter of Blind Sense however, I can tell you this:



In essence, no it doesn't pinpoint. It gives you a rough estimate of where the target is. If the target is not in a direct line of sight such as hidden behind walls, in a barrel, or in a position you can't act, you don't even get that, you simply know something is in the vicinity. Please do avoid resorting to auto-win reactions. It doesn't befit you as a player, and you get what you deserve in turn - complete and utter lack of respect for your own RP.

This game is bloody old as hell, and we STILL haven't learned to respect eachother's playstyles, or respect eachother even. ''It's magic'' excuses for cheese caking others is getting really bloody old.

Sincerely,

Red

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Plays:
Jórunnr Arngeirrsdóttir - Ruathym Raider and Lady of Fortune

What the hell is the Blind Sense, anyway? We don't have that shit in game. If you want to interpret BioWare True Sight as that, then it clearly does pinpoint the exact location. Because that's what it does. Whatever it supposedly does in PnP D&D, a game we're not playing, is 100% irrelevant. (And the bit you yourself made bold does indicate that the ability pinpoints the target; so huh?)

This has nothing to do with text-based interaction vs mechanical interaction. It is about respecting the empirical reality our characters live in, and basing our textual interaction on that reality. If my character sees with his very own eyes that something works in a given way, who are we to speculate whether he really should have seen that? Respecting the mechanics of the game and respecting RP are one and the same. It's rolling with the punches.

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The so called ''Empirical Reality'' of True Sight here doesn't auto detect people anymore on Amia. It gives a bonus to Spot and can see invisible objects, as pnp says. Giving True Sight to monsters was Bioware's lazy attempt to mimic Blind Sense. Blind Sense is what several creatures, such as dragons, have, due to their superb hearing and olphative skills. And as I've provided above, which is a direct quote from the source books, it doesn't pinpoint anything unless certain conditions are met, and if they're not, all you can do is roll spot and\or listen and hope you score good. Also, Blind Sense is in the game, it's just not used, probably because it's malfunctioning and as stated, Bioware was lazy.

And the post has EVERYTHING to do with text based interaction VS mechanical, because it actually revolves around a particular situation that took place recently, experienced by certain people that will be left unamed. It's sad to see this thread step so low.

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Plays:
Jórunnr Arngeirrsdóttir - Ruathym Raider and Lady of Fortune

Alright, suppose we take BioWare True Sight (and I am fully aware of its difference to the Amia spell) as Blind Sense, even if that's not what it says in game. (I don't care what dragons have in PnP - different game.) It still does seem to pinpoint a target's exact location, because if you set them hostile, your summon is going to attack them. I'm also not sure they get 50% concealment. How are you going to ignore that empirical fact? Are you going to break character, and ask everyone OOC to ignore what just happened? Pause after every round and roll concealement, and get a time-out to heal if the attack should have missed? That is never a good solution. If your idea of how something should work IC cannot be reconciled with what actually happens in the game, it is not the game that's at fault.

Whatever specifics happened in game, I am not interested in those; the arguments presented in this topic are not about text vs engine. They are about rules, about what you can demand from other players, and about the IC reality of our setting. Whichever side we take, there has to be one empirical reality. Should it be determined by the game engine that is fair and consistent towards all, or by individual players' opinions on what's "common sense"? I think the answer is obvious.

There is a rule about this, actually. PnP spells and other rules require consent from everyone involved (or DM involvement). Effects beyond those caused by the NWN engine are all "PnP effects" and thus are not in individual players' power to demand.

What the OP is championing is nothing short of godgaming. Godgaming in its traditional meaning is claiming, through text, that you have powers not supported by game mechanics. (And in that sense, it is about text vs engine, where the former must be subject to the latter.) How is it any better to demand, through text, that your opponents have weaknesses not supported by game mechanics? It is effectively the same thing, and exactly what the OP suggests.


EDIT: The problem is, essentially, what Ruce alluded to. Rules of physics or of history are not enforced by the game engine. We cannot enforce complete realism. So pleas like this boil down to a few issues that just happen to annoy the poster in question. He might say, reasonably, that a lightning bolt underwater makes no sense. But it is inconsistent to act on that suggestion unless you also consider all the other things about magical lightning bolts and underwater combat that don't make sense, and refrain from them equally. Personally, I am irritated by people's lack of knowledge about pre-printing document production and the ridiculous number of notes and books they produce. But I do not have the right to demand anything, I can just lead by example. We could extend the list forever, until everything was perfectly realistic - but then, people would not agree on what exactly is realistic. It would take a degree in some complete theory of everything applied to a fantasy world to decide how things should work. Or, we could take the game as given, and base our RP on that.

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Good to know where you stand, should our chars ever enter into conflict.



I know what started this thread to begin with, so I assure you it has everything to do with text based VS mechanical. Now, I've already provided you enough to confirm that True Sight is indeed working as per pnp. Blind Sense was invoked in the situation I refer to by the way. If the one using it can't even bother to read what it does in proper books or the many websites that have it copy pasted to them, why are they even using it IG? A bike isn't a car, even if you name it that way.

Also, if you don't care, then why the hell are you still posting here?



Now we're getting somewhere, because this means somewhere along the way, this rule was breached in the specific interaction.



What the Op is championing, is that people start reading source books and actually dedicate some reasoning to their interactions. Mashing buttons isn't Rp. RP is text based. Always has been. No text means it's straight up pvp, and if this is what you're heralding, then by all means, I'll oblige fully. I refuse to give Rp advice to people anymore. The community long since stoped being receptive to this, and even considers it harassment of all things. PCs have weaknesses. No one's perfect. And when pnp mechanics are invoked, the least to be expected is that they're portrayed accurately. They weren't. The OP was godgamed into a loss, not otherwise. Please, do stop invoking words such as godgaming towards specific people. That word alone is an abomination and brings nothing but angst to topics.


Edit: Oh and by the way? This is supposed to be Forgotten Realms, even if the setting's changed considerably over the years. This is your Empirical Reality.

Sincerely,

Red

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Plays:
Jórunnr Arngeirrsdóttir - Ruathym Raider and Lady of Fortune

Keep it calm people, and don't start bringing actual occurrences into the discussion. If you have an issue with something that has happened IG, then bring it up with the DM's and we'll work with you to resolve the matter as best we can

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Signature by Maryn! <3 I am also seen as DM Snuffles.

Apologies for my tone first of all. The thing is the OP's point is related to this particular case. Not referencing some of it defeats the purpose considerably. However, you hold an absolute point. The matter should be brought to the Dm's attention.

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Plays:
Jórunnr Arngeirrsdóttir - Ruathym Raider and Lady of Fortune

You keep returning to the "PvP without text" claim that I don't understand. Whatever happened in game, that has nothing to do with the topic. (And mind you, the OP might very well believe it does, but he can be mistaken about his own arguments.) I can write the exact same amount of text to describe a situation, whether I assume NWN engine rules or my personal take on D&D rules to apply. I can write:

"The mage yells for his party to duck, and sends a fireball flying between their shoulders. His good aim and the deliberate shape of the explosion causes the orcs to burn to cinders while his allies feel but a wave of hot air on the faces."

The above is consistent with NWN Party PvP. On the other hand, someone else could ignore NWN mechanics and claim that the fireball burned their valuable silk scarf and caused them to miscarry their firstborn, and sue the mage for it. That interaction would be just as text-based, but it would be godgaming because it is not in line with NWN mechanics and thus not what actually happened.

Or I can handle a conflict situation with nothing but text, but respect NWN rules. We have grapple rolls, and I can go by them or I can try to claim I have epic ranks in Escape Artist (not in NWN) which should enable me to wriggle away. Both are firmly text-based, where one respects the game and the other expects players to read and agree to your interpretation of additional literature. And, as you know, source books are not required to play Amia.

I am curious about how you explain away the "empirical reality" (as you're so fond of punctuating it). Do you suppose that when I cast a fireball in game, or when a epic dragon knight attacks a stealther without rolling Spot and 50% concealement, things don't actually happen as they appear in game? Do you ask for an OOC break to negotiate a play-pretend situation that could ignore what actually happened, before our characters' eyes? I am open to the idea that some things could be interpreted creatively. But I don't see how you can at the same time respect RP and the setting, and ignore how it actually works.

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What Rigs said.

I'd also like to advice people to not post more then once per day in a certain topic so we won't get the back and forth arguments so much and you have some to cool down and clear your mind before you post again should such be necesarry.

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Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

I wouldn't mind seeing a timer, such as with HiPS, so that you can only shift once per round. Minutes though, nah, that would be too far from the source material. They're shapeshifters, not skinchangers, they don't need to shed their skin and create a new one, they just become something else.

As for Blindsense, Tremorsense and such abilities, I also tend to agree. They're not auto-targeting GPS sonar-radar-whatnots. Of course depending on what gives the creature its supernatural perception, it might give them a good idea what direction and distance the "trigger" is coming from. The problem with this in Amia is that not everyone here is a DnD junkie, not everyone here has played DnD or acquinted themselves with the rules. Some people have simply played NWN or just Amia and learned what there is to learn through game mechanics. While I prefer DnD, we cannot assume everyone to study the rules of Dungeons and Dragons before they start playing. I believe our beloved hostman Disco once said "If I could re-design NWN, I'd ditch DnD altogether" and many players might agree.

Other similar effects from DnD cannot be properly dublicated, such as Displacement and such lovely effects. We just have to learn to live with that.

And lastly if I may comment the passive-aggressive behaviours, attempted trollings etcetera.;
If you have nothing constructive to say, do not say it. Coming out with an attitude or just to spat something back at someone without actual constructive feedback on the topic at hand does nobody any favors. It just makes other people upset and readers sad.

<- (See how sad I am?)

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In-Game: guano

That's basically what everything leads up to. I'm very, very simple like that. In some cases, I just don't see how something works. I have no idea how it would look, or what my character sees, so I have no clue how my character would react. Shifting through a gazillion forms in seconds is a big one there. If you go behind a tree, or pop invisible or something, it's usually a non-issue, because then "out of sight out of mind" applies. If you're doing it right in front of my character, though, please, please let me know what he, she or it is seeing, so I know how to react.

"It's magic" is all fine and good, but what does the magic look like? That's the real thing there. And if I'm on a mage, they're probably going to be very interested how it works.

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GSID: Piranha, Borntokill, Free Beer, Bad Luck Inc.
Player of: Nothing atm. Busy elsewhere.

Grell: I would like to hire the Kossuth maid service. Do you do waste disposal? I've a list of homes you could visit

Can I ask if people think rapid shifting is overpowered? The primary reason HiPS got a cool down was it was very abuse-able against creatures/players with low spot/MS, not saying it isn't not just hit and runs were very potent before the cool-down.

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And that right there is why he is sort of wrong.



that's direct from the rules...

also not everyone has source books, Amia does not link to the source books, Amia does not enforce or follow all source books....ect

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

I think it's about on par with HIPS.

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GSID: Piranha, Borntokill, Free Beer, Bad Luck Inc.
Player of: Nothing atm. Busy elsewhere.

Grell: I would like to hire the Kossuth maid service. Do you do waste disposal? I've a list of homes you could visit

Its nothing like HiPS..... you could avoid all damage all the time with HiPS spam more or less.

The rapid shifting is fine, so you get afew minor buffs its like chugging any random potion or using one of the 1/day buff items and buying 3 bags full of them (like some people do) other then now the shifter is wasting some of the buffs time on all the time it takes to jump in and out of form to do the buffs.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

It's almost as if people think shifters jump in and out of forms several times in a round. I'm pretty sure casting a buff in one of them still spends the round?

Is it actually possible to shift from one form into another that's immune to, say, death magic in the time it takes a mage to finish casting Wail?

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Against someone with no spot or listen, sure. But they're sort of asking for it, aren't they?

IA: Yes.

_________________
GSID: Piranha, Borntokill, Free Beer, Bad Luck Inc.
Player of: Nothing atm. Busy elsewhere.

Grell: I would like to hire the Kossuth maid service. Do you do waste disposal? I've a list of homes you could visit

They take roughly the same time each depending on when the Shifter did their last round's actions (unless they are psychic and shift before it) but if the mage is hasted I believe they can cast faster than a hasted shift.

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you guys are getting trolled by sinfar players
none of their points even make sense

1. shifting does take seconds, it's a (Su), a standard action, ~3-5 seconds
you disagree with this? dont play forgotten realm and dont play dnd
it's a high magic setting/game

2. blind sense does tell you where they are, just lets them retain their concealment against you
what do you think it does?

3. sure, with long range spells you'd be long gone compared to someone running
but the shadow jump example is shit, shadow jump only goes 40 at sd 6/80 at sd 8/160 ft at sd 10 and is a (Su) that requires you to be in a shadow and have your target be a shadow
so movement (30 ft) + shadow jump = 70/110/190 ft total
full action run goes 120 ft (for a normal 30 ft character), which is faster until they get shadow dancer 10

4. you dont know how electricity works
i bet you think when lighting hits water it kills everything, it doesnt, it dissipates through the entire body at the same time and therefor doesnt really do much
the reason it does when youre on a boat or on land is because the entire bolt is going through you and then into the water/ground
also, it's fucking magic
"acid sheathe should burn its caster because of the acid splash" would be a better example than the lightning one

5. yeah true

6. hips strawman
again with the fucking (Su)s, you only get one standard action a round, and a standard action takes ~3-5 seconds, so in lore i suppose it doesnt have a cool down, but it can be implied as such through pnp dnd rules
in nwn it should actually work like a quickened/hasted invisibility spell on yourself, but that's on the designers of the game and i suppose the coders of amia

7. green name text
humans dont even digest straw, no need to be so greedy

viewtopic.php?p=1279260#p1279260
common sense is like a dick, you shouldnt be thinking with it

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THREE

The most basic one is "invest in detection". If you haven't done that, you need to keep in mind that HIPS breaks combat and that it basically starts a new combat round; and that you can run faster than they can sneak and they'll probably be coming after you. It's just a matter of timing it right to spam your detection gear, catch them flatfooted and crit them dead. It's not that hard.

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GSID: Piranha, Borntokill, Free Beer, Bad Luck Inc.
Player of: Nothing atm. Busy elsewhere.

Grell: I would like to hire the Kossuth maid service. Do you do waste disposal? I've a list of homes you could visit

This might help:

Shifting is a full round action. If you are hasted you can shift forms twice in a round. This means you can shift and cast a buff in one round, then repeat.

Oh, and the fallacy that people need to shift constantly to win is hilarious :> Especially since while shifting you are open for heavy punishment.


That sounds weirdly like swapping detection gear in/out in the middle of a crisis.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Read what people actually post, please. Thank you.

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GSID: Piranha, Borntokill, Free Beer, Bad Luck Inc.
Player of: Nothing atm. Busy elsewhere.

Grell: I would like to hire the Kossuth maid service. Do you do waste disposal? I've a list of homes you could visit

It's just Waldorf and Statlering but: does anyone else have a mental image of some posters in this thread being manhandled out of the X-Men movie in floods of tears, screaming SHE SHIFTS TOO FAST! SHE SHIFTS TOO FAST! GO BACK AND DO IT SLOWER, YOU METAGAMING BITCH!

You're gonna laugh but I completely forgot about those movies. The reference was all I needed to be able to imagine what, previously, I just was drawing a complete blank from, though, so thanks, bro.

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GSID: Piranha, Borntokill, Free Beer, Bad Luck Inc.
Player of: Nothing atm. Busy elsewhere.

Grell: I would like to hire the Kossuth maid service. Do you do waste disposal? I've a list of homes you could visit

Here. Should help the mental image.

Yes, I feel dirty for referencing WoW.

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~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear.
~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt.
~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.

I'm on board with most of what's in the original post... but in the rulebooks, shifting is almost literally an instantaneous action. It's a full round action at most I think, which means, at most, it takes up 6 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkst9mT_0P8

Mostly for Morph fighting, but that's what I think of when fighting as a shifter. You shift to what's best at the moment. It's not like the shifter description says shifters have no shape to call their own.....