Hmm.
Just a thought. Just like how there is are rule based waivers for general rules.

http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=49569&hilit=waiver


I was thinking of something similar for willing people to sign up to hardcore RP mode.

What this means is that if you join this 'exclusive elite' group of hardcore RPers.

It would mean that your toons would have to abide by mechanical RP dice rolls and how those dice rolls would impact upon their interactions.

Ie. Persuade, Intimidate, Bluff.

Players would have to put in their character description in game that their toon abides by these RP dice rolls.

1) This would serve to the effect that RP skills to actually have some beneficial effects without DM intervention.

2) Stats would actually play a role in character development. Ie. No suave speaking, 6 Cha half orcs having persuasive impact amongst this elite group of RPers.

3) This would allow casual players as well as those RP nazis to have a place within Amia without coming into conflict on what each constitute as 'good rp'. Players would generally gravitate to the groups that appeal to their style of play.



Thoughts and ideas?

_________________
Currently starring:
Vinasis D'Magi- Calishite Merchant
Pantheros Sylvanight- Lycanlord of Malar
Artorious Godstrike- Paladin of Torm

I think you should call it 'Studio 54' rather than 'exclusive elite'.

I like the idea. Not sure how it would work out in practice though.

_________________
Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"

This really isn't a thread for IA, because it's not something the DMs would enforce. Just like the waivers, they are not official and therefore the DMs default to the server rules.

If you want to do it, go for it.

_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Moved to General Discussion. Bear in mind that as with the aforementioned "rule waivers", this would not be enforced in any form by the staff.

Amia should work on trying to include everyone who wants to be included in RP events first before thinking about elite RP classes.

_________________
Primary character:
Gaelruil Arabitylarzair
Alts:
Left Alt
Right Alt

indeed, we should solve the problem.

_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

The fact you consider this proposal would somehow make adherents an "exclusive elite" (re: arrogant clique) is reason enough for a big fat NO from me additionally you consider those that don't, are " RP nazis " what the hell?

I propose we promote ~role~ play over ~roll~ play.

_________________
Aggie Agetha War Knight (much to the chagrin of certain players and character )

He refered to those who do not care too much about these things as 'casual gamers'. 'Roleplay Nazis' was his term for those who may care a lot about stricter guidelines. The term was clearly also meant jokingly.

[Edit 2: Ack, edited my post instead of posting a reply. Restored the post above -.-]

Natalia, you will note he referred to potential members of his group as "RP nazis" - not those who opt out. It was no a derogatory term.

I have nothing against a culture of elitism that urges people to ever greater heights. It is arrogance only if you can't back up your claims. Otherwise, it is just deserved pride - but of course, one need not rub it in other people's faces. This specific suggestion, though, I find misguided. Dice rolls are not supposed to be followed mechanically, and the truly resourceful, tasteful and fair players do not need to join a club to give other people's achievements and investments due weight. I have also never had trouble finding like-minded players whose RP I can admire and who don't cause OOC fuss. That's why I won't join your club, but if it helps you find friends and play better, best of luck!

_________________

Elite RP classes? In what way?

If you worry about the quality of your own RP, do something about it. The only person you can change is yourself.

If you aren't talking about RP, then there simply are no such things as 'elite classes' on Amia as every class has drawbacks and every class has places where they shine. So it isn't the class itself, or the build, but rather what you make of your class and build.

_________________
Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

On a bit more general level, rather that in reponse to the specifics of your proposal.

The first, I suggested something similiar a while back with the pvp and pvm consequences. A simple widget that would allow players to toggle between "standard and advanced mechanical penalties upon dead" When two players who both have it active and pvp, then they apply. If one of them do not have it activated, then they apply to neither in pvp. For pvm, those who have it active get hit with the advanced mechanical penalties, while those who do not, do not. So I am all for a system that allows players to decide if they would want to have roleplaying, adventuring and conflict carry a bit more risk.

What I do not like are the terms "roleplay elite", because it is way too often used without actually being backed up by quality, and because it simply is not necessary. There is nothing wrong with enjoying more casual game play after work, and these terms often have the side effect of rubbing people the wrong way or suggesting they need to change because you are not cool if you do not. It is just a tad anoying to me, because often good ideas simply fail because you just had to try to pat yourself on the shoulder by proclaiming yourself as the "roleplay elite".

That being said, what bothers me way more is those who immediately call those who might enjoy more consequential roleplay and stronger enforcement of the character's stats and atrributes arrogant snobby cliquey bastards who want to ruin everything for everyone else. If you demand respect and acceptance for the standard more casual gameplay mechanics and rules (which will stay in tact because of you), then I do not see why you can not show the same for those who might want it a bit differently, and in a way that do not force them on you.

As to the suggestion, I am not a big fan of the specifics. Basically everything Iron wrote in regard to it.

I'm talking about including the people who want to get involved in the game's goings-on, but everyone makes excuses about why their character can't get involved.

I mean elite RP classes like what the topic creator is posting about. Not classes like fighter or paladin, classes like classifications; some people are regular RPers and some are elite RPers with their own rules.

_________________
Primary character:
Gaelruil Arabitylarzair
Alts:
Left Alt
Right Alt

Wow.
Upon reading the first few replies I was amazed at the 'hate'. Thank you Iron, Pony for clarifying what I was going for.








The whole reason why I thought of this thread is for the following reasons.


1. There are a large group of players that believe they do not have to role play their actual stats. (Ie. Low charisma, yet want to be a politician, or guild leader in game) and the problem is that currently the rules actually do not enforce stat rp. This is fine as Amia caters to a broad base of players, each with their own standard. Ie. Casual RPers, vs hardcore rp Nazi's etc. What I was trying to do was allow a system where players actually can find a group that share a similar playing styles. Not specifically belittling those that do not follow such strict standards.

2. I've seen over the course of the years, toons that do not frankly RP their stats, or sub-race, accordingly. Blond/Blue Eyed Mulan clerics.(yes I know of the odd minute genetic mutation here or there case, but seriously?) Players that would have opted to join this group would not do such things.

3. What they would also be able to do is make use of the mechanical dice bag already in place. Ie. The persuade check, the intimidate check, etc and actually feel that they are able to invest points into skills that might not have a mechanical advantage yet still have some benefit from them.


4. Perhaps the term Elite was wrongly coined. Regardless whatever choice of words one would choose its always likely to be criticized. Perhaps a category, like a category to cater to the seriousness of that toons roleplay. Basic, Intermediate, and Expert.


This is in no way puts down others who do not engage in such role play. But if you want to improve the overall quality of roleplaying capability on the server, the best thing to do is to set an example and the rest would follow once they know that "Oh wow I can actually make an enchantress sorceress , take epic skill check persuade and possibly influence other characters in game to my own gains".

They would see the benefit of building classes like the said, and join such groups seeing as to how it would add so much depth to the quality of Amian roleplay which is already great as it is.

_________________
Currently starring:
Vinasis D'Magi- Calishite Merchant
Pantheros Sylvanight- Lycanlord of Malar
Artorious Godstrike- Paladin of Torm

What happens if, in the interests of an overall story, the elite players and the casual players have a need to roleplay with one another, but their compartmentalization justifies OOC reasons for one group ignoring the other? Also, what if a player becomes too elite for the elite bloq?

Then put Yoss back to what I told you and stomp them.

This is dumb. On a server where you have approximately 30 people on weekdays, the last thing you need to do is further split the group up and simultaneously discourage newbies from venturing to open their mouths (lest they offend an elite's sensibilities).

Here's an idea, play your characters with the responses and consequences you envision for them from the RP that naturally occurs, and do the best damn job you can at it. You might just start a trend... (viz, the perma-killing that occurs periodically in the UD. I woulda been first to get that one if I weren't weak...) (go Malice!) (rarara!)

_________________

Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

That can happen for anyone, anywhere. Plot simply happens. You don't always get to choose who you're with either.


I didn't see them mention 'class' at all. Rereading it and I still don't. I speak for all of us DMs on the topic when I say that we take players in events. You don't have a 'class,' in the sense you seem to mean, to any of us up top.

What I see is this: Some players want to use the luck of the dice to influence their RP. Others don't. In the interest of events, you all get to abide by what the DM says. If you are out in the world, some people may play ball with Hard Core PnP stuff and some won't. If you want to play Hard Core with dice rolls, fine, but you simply can't force it on others.

_________________
Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

That was the best, knocking giants on their asses. I admit that even though it wasn't a perfect fit, I do miss it and I kept a lot of the tips that made me at least effective.

Try being left out of everything. It's not fun. I've been trying since I created Gaelruil to get involved in events and things and someone always seems to have an excuse for why Gael can't tag along.

I'm sure DM characters never experience being left out, since they're played by DMs. So naturally they won't understand.


I didn't see them mention 'class' at all. Rereading it and I still don't. I speak for all of us DMs on the topic when I say that we take players in events. You don't have a 'class,' in the sense you seem to mean, to any of us up top.

What I see is this: Some players want to use the luck of the dice to influence their RP. Others don't. In the interest of events, you all get to abide by what the DM says. If you are out in the world, some people may play ball with Hard Core PnP stuff and some won't. If you want to play Hard Core with dice rolls, fine, but you simply can't force it on others.[/quote]

I've been talking about what the topic creator has been talking about: a class of hardcore RPers (it's the very first definition of "class" on dictionary.com). I'm not sure what's so confusing here.

_________________
Primary character:
Gaelruil Arabitylarzair
Alts:
Left Alt
Right Alt

Dusty wasnt always a DM and no offence but your attitude probably doesnt help your situation.

_________________
@Thanatopsis#6293

I also have a number of 'hidden' accounts where I purposefully play to avoid the recognition of a DM PC. I'm not saying you're not having a real issue, because it might very well be-- but to categorically say that DM's will never understand is kind of silly.

I'm not exactly a recognizable player, but even I use alt accounts for certain PCs when I feel like playing a different character for a while, and I can still get them involved with other PCs and events pretty easily.

Just remember you're one character among many, you can involve yourself without it becoming about you! I dance in and out of Amian politics, events and situations when it fits for my character to do so.

_________________
Rosie Adenney - The Smiling Red Hin
Dalur Illien - Hound of Justice
Tria Under - Blunt as Stone

That's the most untrue and insulting thing I've read in some time. I can understand you're upset over not participating in any events due to various reasons (and for my events it was that you wanted me, a european, to stay up and start an event at 4 AM for your sake and your sake alone, which I'm very sorry but I won't do while I retain even a shred of my sanity), but stating things when they're completely false just proves a lack of empathy to the larger situation.

I have not participated in any DM event for at least four months. Why? Because I run the Reyes plot, so that's out. That plot collided with the Quintessence plot which rules that out as well. I can't get involved in Cordor, as that's one my plot's main areas of focus. The last event I took part in, briefly, was one of Galenson's illithid attacks on Wharftown some time back. I couldn't follow up because my plot was then intertwined with his as well. Because I'm a DM my PC literally has no option what so ever of getting involved with any plots. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind so much, it's just an example of a DM's PC that never gets to be in any events.

I guarantee that if you drop your "everyone is against me" attitude and try to behave in a way that does not alienate people you'd find that more characters want to include Gaelruil. Perhaps you won't participate in the large DM events due to the fact that they're run by DMs who cannot be online at the times you're online. That's tough, but not something people do out of malice or spite. Stop trying to paint yourself as the victim of ostracization , because you're not one. If there are people who don't want to deal with you it's due to your attitude and nothing else.

I think this is a little unclear.

I recall the event you speak of here; I posted in the thread to ask for a compromise in the starting time before I knew that it was you running the event and before I knew that it would begin at 4am your local time.

Again, I had only asked for a compromise.

_________________
Primary character:
Gaelruil Arabitylarzair
Alts:
Left Alt
Right Alt

I'd also like to add that a lot of these DMs weren't even DMs when I started just a couple years ago..

All the DMs here started out as very good players, and most of them are fairly recently promoted to their now DM position.

_________________
Rosie Adenney - The Smiling Red Hin
Dalur Illien - Hound of Justice
Tria Under - Blunt as Stone

I'm all for more people using the social skills, and playing their stats honestly. But I don't think making a club is the best way to go about it. The intent here is good, but purposely limiting yourself out the gate to just your own group isn't gonna help in the long run. What will help is just to actively USE those skills, to your own benefit and detriment, and SHOW people that it's more fun that way. Involve them. Ask people for a CHA check... what's the worst that might happen? They refuse? If refusal and non-action are the same, there's no problem, just don't let it get to you if they do. Make your own checks, without worrying who around might ignore it or not, and follow through on your end. The more people use that part of the game, the more other people will follow.

I see the goal here is probably (without trying to make assumptions) to help people find the other characters that are willing to stick to their stats. To that end, it might work out better to simply make a thread where people can post if that is their interest. The player, not the character. Don't make it about rules (like, "I promise to always honor all rolls" or somesuch), just that 'hardcore' roleplay is your interest. The lack of an absolute will encourage more people to take part AND not make it blatantly obvious to those that might seek to metagame advantage over 'hardcore' characters. Just a thread, with an updated list of login names at the top, of people looking for the same. That would give you a list of people to possibly search out, either in game or OOC to create characters with, without making it a separatist cliche.

Edit: Also, I'd sign up for 'interest in hardcore', but don't really feel like the gentleman's agreement thread serves it's purpose well enough (it's hard to crosscheck against it while playing, and I seem to recall people picking and choosing which parts they agreed to, making it even more unclear), and I *don't* like the idea of someone holding my 'promise' against me.

_________________

People should roleplay how they wish to and let others do the same.

However, the problem comes in how you've posited your idea, OP. Being "elite" or "hardcore" isn't deliberately ignoring what every sourcebook has ever said about social skills and PCs while throwing dice to see who can turn each other into robots. It's fairly insulting and condescending to even pose the thought this way to the community.

The reason game designers outright NOPE this in every book is because it is roll-playing and oh-so abusable. All anybody'd need to do is make a bard or sorcerer with a rogue skill-dump and congratulations to me on my new persistent charm ability! Off to acquire my army of PC dupes! Who cares if I can't fight, I've got fighter-slaves for that!

Needless to say, you should probably hash out your 'elite' rules first before asking people to sign up since NWN is not equipped for this or you're just going to run into trouble. How are you going to oppose persuade? The closest thing to it is Diplomacy and you can't use the NPC reaction chart in the DMG as a player. Intimidate? A DC of 10 + character HD won't work as getting a skill of 39 is laughably simple to do before level 10. Bluff? Sense motive doesn't even exist.

_________________
Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind
Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice

(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)

'Hardcore RP' isn't just using dice, it's about having awesomely descriptive text that is backed up by the use of dice to show effectiveness, and reacting to it how your character would react, rather than how you want your character to react.

This is where the magic happens. It's not about using dice rolls as tools against other players, its not about rolling ability scores to show how awesome you are and its not about having a degree in English literature demonstrated trough amazing emote-writing. It's ALL about what your character would do.

_________________
Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

It's been discussed plenty of times on Amia, but the thing is that when you log in to your character you must accept that the world can change your character as much as it can change the world. When people get too attached to characters, or restrictive over things it rarely helps RP flow or relationships on an OOC level.

It's like playing 'super army man war' with your action figures. You have this pristine one that you've polished and put your heart into, but when your friends start rolling the die and it turns out that Martin Sue the Amazing Badass Hero of Death is going to end his career with half of his limbs missing and a terrible lisp thanks to injury and you suddenly think 'I don't want this to happen' you have to wonder if you're playing for the game itself, or more to exhibit piece of imaginative work (character) you made.

The thing is, Amia has a lot of different kinds of roleplayer who want varying degrees of control and flow. People with similar expectations tend to play together because they find it easier to understand each other's views on what the server is about, what's fun to do together etc. While that's great, it also means that in confrontational situations which people seem to be so fond of, different player's expectations of the consequences of their actions can wildly differ.

I know I'd find comfort in knowing that when I log in on this character who is part of the dice roll group, the rules are there. He can be manipulated by others' die rolls, he can do the same himself, but in the end we're all agreeing to make a story here, and if my character happens to get wrecked for whatever reason I won't take it personally. And it's not because I'm an elitist prick or look down upon other forms of roleplay, it's because I find much more enjoyment in an environment where I feel like things are a little further out of my hands than perhaps I'm comfortable with. But that's the sweet spot for keeping myself entertained which is ultimately what I'm here to do.

So while it's very easy to poke holes in this idea and accuse it of cliquery and playerbase division, I can only assume that the people who bit the bait and joined this group would be possessed of some level of common sense, fair play and community spirit to not abuse the system selfishly, and not to get pissy with people who decide they want a different flavour of Amia.

EDIT: As an afterthought, something I've done without needing to influence anyone else is made an attribute roll in certain situations, and then roleplayed the outcome. Having a very stupid character roll a 20 on Wisdom and come out with something unusually insightful in a conversation, or your incredibly intelligent Wizard fluff an intelligence roll and look like an idiot can be a lot of fun. It's something I only did very rarely, but it can be engaging to work off whatever chance throws at you.

I don't consider myself a casual RPer but given my schedule, it makes me out to be. Wish I had the time.

Maybe you could add this to the existing rule waivers, that you allow the use of dice rolls to support role play.

_________________
Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

I don't get why people get in this divide over the social skills, with one side saying it should be possible to pretend your character might be better at some skills than you the player are (sorta like we do with sword-play, magic, and everything else our characters do that is represented by stats and dice rolls), and the other takes a hard stance against -any- roll influence over social interaction with their character.

There's a middle ground. And that's where I think most of the people that support using dice rolls in your RP stand. That's where most people stand, period. There's always gonna be that newb that thinks 100 ranks in persuade means they always get their way in all things, but it's pretty easy to spot such cases, and judging all by such extremes is a bit unfair. And I say 'always' because I can very easily see someone doing that, but I've never *actually* seen anyone try.

The opposing side sees players that are unwilling to accept any input in their RP, unwilling to let anything possibly negative happen at all, and generally dumps charisma entirely because it 'doesn't do anything'. That's really just as bad as the messiah-complexed newb with 100 persuade. I've certainly seen this one however. There seem to be more people afraid of dice ruining their roleplay than the opposite. I've never seen anyone push for the right to control others with persuade. But the argument always seems to be against the extremes, rather than the position people are actually holding.

The answer is in the middle. Roleplay is a cooperative game, not a competitive one. The competitive types just build powermunchkins and steam roll you in combat anyways (which is somehow more acceptable). I wish everyone could just agree that no one is trying to (or can) steal your freewill, and consider honoring dice rolls in a game mechanically based on rolling dice. This is where most people seem to effectively be in game anyways, but the argument of it on the forums never ends. Which is why I say just make the rolls... you'll either find people that will roll with it in good fun, or you'll find which characters to avoid.

I disagree that actual rules should be made. I think the very general promises to accurately (try to) play your characters stats (which is a server rule anyways, if not always enforced 100%), and at least consider skill rolls during roleplay. Strong rules will just cause argument, and kill the entire intent.


(If you actually find one of those people that want to rob your character of free will, just set them to hostile, beat them up and take their lunch money. Take screenshots too, I wanna see.)

_________________

So basically a clique.

_________________

How exactly is that a clique?

_________________
Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

Yoss's concerns here begin to address the dangers of this idea turning into a clique. I wouldn't say outright that it would be a clique-- but I would say that it holds a certain threat of becoming one.

Its simple to say that any group that separates itself, and considers itself categorically different than the others (Especially to a higher standard) will begin to form a clique.

It would most certainly be a clique, human nature being what it is, creating a presumptuous group that esteems itself as better than others labelling itself "elite" and condescendingly referring to other players not of that group as either "casual" or "rp Nazi" (using the term Nazi is damn bad taste in such a context is indicative to me at least of the mind set of the original poster) is a sure sign it would become one even if that wasn't the intent (which blatantly would be the intent).



Because its true.

Especially when the underlined text is set by the clique *coughs*...group...

I am not a "casual" rper by the definitions of some who have posted in this thread because regardless of how much time I spend in Amia when I am here I role play my characters to the best of my ability.

I do not meta game their abilities (or lack thereof).

I do not meta game information I have that the character/s do not.

I do not roll a skill, attribute, saving throw or any other dice and then demand that another PC abide by the result, I do however reserve the right to role play my little heart out and then occasionally when it seems appropriate, roll a dice to reinforce and support the role play. Especially where there is some degree of opposition involved for example like trying to hear a low conversation or sneak past someone unnoticed.

The idea that roll play is somehow superior to role play is frankly offensive, the idea that anyone not roll playing is somehow "casual" in their RP is insulting.

I would suggest that the fact this idea was even posted (let alone the way it which it has been presented) is worrying in that it reflects a (to my mind) dangerous trend inline with the rise of increasing use of party chat and ooc spam to discuss, agree/disagree and organise IC activities.

In other words its a bad idea/habit and one to be avoided at all costs.

_________________
Aggie Agetha War Knight (much to the chagrin of certain players and character )

As someone who has floated around here for years and seen a lot, I like to think I know a thing or two about 'cliquery.'

The thing is, you personally are not going to get along with everyone. You personally are not going to like every kind of roleplay that you come across. It's natural to find and interact with people who are on the same 'level' as you. That's why Amia is so nice; you can afford to do that because there are all kinds of different roleplayers here. Some people are going to be better at accommodating other's tastes, allowing them to interact fruitfully with a larger group of people regardless of their actual character. Others may seriously enjoy very intense roleplay with only one or two others to keep stories more focussed and intricate. That's fine. That's natural. You can't force people to do something they don't enjoy, to roleplay with someone they don't find it fun to roleplay with. Calling this 'elitism' or 'cliquery' or whatever is evidently partially correct, but as I said, that's natural. If I strolled into a room of 30 people, would I get along with all of them instantly and be able to bounce of each other's imaginations to create an amazing work of art? Hell no. I'm going to gravitate towards the people I do get along with and spend more time with them.

So long as I make my feelings clear to people and do not deliberately cut down people who are still trying to find their 'in,' I see absolutely nothing wrong with this approach.

I know we're putting ourselves into our characters here, but unless you claim to have the ability to do a complete removal of your personal influence and totally enter your character's mind, your tastes and enjoyment are still going to influence what you do and who you do it with. So rather than being proud of Amia as somewhere the roleplay is very diverse, and then claiming 'cliquery' in the same breath, maybe we should accept it as a 'con to the pro' of the community we have here. We're not all mindless automatons who can be programmed for ultimate peace and love. We're just here to have a good time.