Here. Instead of talking about it, just do it!

Here's the Original Topic.
Here is Robert's second topic chain.

This is a discussion thread catered for understanding and developing the Waiver of Rule-Based protections on a character by character basis.

One topic of discussion is how to learn which characters have waived their protections. Another is the validity of these waivers, and any clarifications or questions. This is -not- the actual waiver thread, where you'd be encouraged to produce copies of waivers and pasting them there. This is a discussion thread.

Good call, Hackie.


Maybe a DM could split the discussion stuff from the old thread into this one?

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Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

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As the DM team said in the last discussion (iirc): The waiver isn't something we endorse, its a gentleman's agreement between two players. If you break any of the rules and a player complains about the rule breaking (i.e. not giving an appropriate out for PVP) you're still liable for a talking to.

That said; if you enter any of my plots you're liable for permadeath/permanent consequences (but worthwhile rewards!) regardless of whether or not you've signed the waiver. We're also looking at the PVP rules regarding DM plots, to make it more immersive and actually worth while.

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The DM team frankly should enforce any documented agreement between two players, IMO. (Insofar as it has something to do with them, like enforcing rules.) And not even just formal ones. Lying is not OK, and a verbal agreement is legally binding. Just because it probably isn't binding online (though it might be, I'm not sure) doesn't mean we shouldn't hold eachother to it.

However, that is more a matter of principle than a practical issue. At least I don't think anyone who's willingly signed onto this has or would complain.

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The DM team does enforce documented agreements, like the one below:



But we enforce the server rules to everyone, equally, regardless of whether or not a waiver has been signed.

We don't allow graphic torture so that should be removed regardless.

Players can be kept in captivity beyond 24 hours by other players if they're alright with it, and you're giving them roleplay.

And permadeath is a players choice unless stated otherwise by a DM, the DM in question will usually give you a heads up if you're heading that way.

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There are just some things that the server doesn't want to happen, Iron. Take, for instance, cybering. Two people may have an agreement that they enjoy it and allow it between themselves, but it doesn't change the fact that it is in the opposite direction the server wants to go.

But I think PVP is largely different than this. I think the rules are in place to protect people from feeling hurt, or being abused. So a "Gentleman's agreement" between two people can allow for feelings to not be hurt, while conflict and server direction to be maintained.

So no, I don't think that the DM's should endorse all agreements between players.
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Thank you, Silent, for clearing up some things on the validity of these contracts. What about the feasibility of finding these waived protections in a person's bio? People have argued on the side that it'd be easy to see and examine, to make sure. And others have said that it intrudes upon IC space--

So what about something really non-intrusive? Something at the very bottom of your Bio that simply says: "Waived PvP Rules: 1,3,4,5." Or something. Whichever points that character submitted to? That's hardly intrusive, and would be rather helpful. Much more so than having to hop on the forums beforehand (Or sheesh, during Rp even) and look them up.

If we're thinking about immersion-breaking, let's look at what the alternatives are. Let's say we didn't have this in our Bio, right? How do you find if someone has waived these rules? I think the absolute least immersion breaking method would be to look them up beforehand, like say, for an assassination. But let's be honest, not all of PvP happens that is carefully thought out. And what if, even, the assassinated target turns the tide of battle and now has the choice to do something with his assassin? So now what does he do? He either a.) Stops his RP, hops on the forums, and searches for it. This is immersion breaking. b.) asks the man in tells what rules he's waived. This is also immersion breaking.

Do you see the issue? No matter what you do, you're going to be breaking immersion in one way or another. I think that the bio is the least conflictual method of this, that can be done on-the-spot, quickly, and only needs to involve the other person at the time of the event. Hell, it even encourages players to read each others bios.

Thoughts?

Hackums, players obviously can't make agreements they're not legally entitled to make.

But what you're saying by refusing to recognize this waiver as a binding agreement, is that anyone can face punishment for simply following the agreement.

Let's say I sign this:


Now, since this is just a "Gentleman's Agreement" and the DM team does not recognize it, I can use this as bait to have you attack me without a chance to back down, and then report you to the DMs and ask for punishment. And the DMs pretty much have to administer it, because you had no legal right to attack me. The waiver I had signed was just a meaningless forum post that doesn't factor into the decision.

That seems strange, but that's exactly what not enforcing this agreement means. Everyone who acts according to these waivers is a rule-breaker, at least if somebody decides to report them.

Though again, I doubt anyone would do that. I understand your reluctance to give your stamp of approval to these waivers as a matter of principle, but the principle it inevitably leads to is even less palatable. I don't even play at the moment so don't take this as a demand to do something about it right now, but everyone should realize just what validity (or lack thereof) a gentleman's agreement about breaking rules has.

Edit: damn typos.

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Anyone claiming anything besides an elaborate dissection of a character's features in the bio breaks immersion is just being a snob. It isn't, and it won't shunt anyone out of the fantasy unless they go in with the agenda of being stirred by the slightest thing.

If it is valid (which I'm not suggesting it is, or isn't) then it belongs in the bio in its entirety, as there is no other means of making sure it is visible and ready for every potential PvP opponent one might encounter in-game.

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feel the blood gushing from your anusfeel the blood gushing from your anus

Furthermore, the idea that players can enter into risky and serious role-play on the explicit condition that they agree to the chance of "permadeath" and sign a document saying as much, but that they're then free to break this contract and ruin everyone's roleplay without fear of DM intervention, is ludicruous. If you promise something, be it to archive your character if he gets killed or to take out the trash if you lose a game of dice, the promise is binding. It's such a self-evident principle of organized society and even the most primitive morality that it doesn't even need to be spelled out in the rules.

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That was just the clarification I was trying to make, Iron.

And I think you're right. Everyone acting in accordance to these waivers is a rule-breaker. But the nature of the rules they're breaking are ones designed to protect players from being griefed. From their feelings being hurt, because things were forced on their character that they had no control over. So if you're able to agree that it isn't the case, and that you actually don't mind Rp that affects your character without any direct player control over the potential outcomes, then you're not exactly griefed.

Maybe I trust the playerbase a little more. Those who have signed these waivers have done so in a thoughtful way, and are willing to accept IC consequences for IC events that they won't have control over. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing how it works in action first as is, before critiquing its theory.

And I think this contract -is- binding. Just not involving the DM's. It's in the player's hands to roleplay responsibly. If a player doesn't follow his word, then that player is a dishonest player, and will likely be treated as such.

The biggest issue that I have with these waivers is the fact that it has the potential to really cause some confusion, and cause some rules to be abused.

The waivers, for the most part, only apply to individual action. It's really an all or none thing.

If everyone in an area has a waiver, and you're going to jump someone without the "RP" leading up to it, you're cool. As soon as you don't include that RP leading up to it, even if your primary target is waivered, we've got a problem. The other players in the area have not had their server rule granted 'intention to attack'.

If you are going to do this, I think it does need to be added to the bio. Without that, you're really on odd ground here. You now have -two- threads to search and hope someone didn't also post an ammendment to their "waiver". If you want this to carry any weight it really needs to be something that can be seen and verified in game instead of with judicious use of a search field.

I can definately understand the DM's decision to not enforce this. I can come up with far too many "grey" situations that can come of this, beyond the multiple parties issue listed above.

That said, I come from a very different background, where the only rules for PVP was "Have an RP reason" and "Flag the other person hostile just before you attack"

I -like- it that way.

However, I feel that in public the rules on PVP need to be an all or nothing. Everyone needs to play by the same rules. What happens in private between two friends, is an entirely different story. Do as you will there.

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It's not that I don't trust the players, Hackums. These wavers have been in effect for a few years now without problems, afaik.

I just don't understand what, exactly, the DMs are trying to achieve with the decision not to acknowledge them. If, as you say, the waivers are signed thoughtfully and in good conscience, why can't players be held to them? Why are players allowed to cry foul and refuse to cooperate when push comes to shove, when they're having a bad day, when they suddenly regret promising to archive a character if their schemes fall apart? If the player can outright break a written contract without consequence, based on how he's feeling at the moment, what purpose did the contract have in the first place?

Sure, you can conveniently ignore rule-breaking that nobody complains about, and these things probably won't cause intentional griefing. But why would a DM team ever choose to enter these murky waters, instead of just agreeing that they will oversee and arbitrate on disagreements about contracts. What problems are they hoping to avoid? And is it really that unlikely that someone will go back on their promise to permakill a character, which will then cause trouble for the one trying to do it?

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Ahh, okay. I understand where you're coming from now. I think we both agreed that its in the players hands right now, and you're simply looking to also involve the DM's. I see where the disconnect was now!

I think its more likely that we'd re-evaluate the PVP rules before we decide to selectively enforce rules on players. But, I'll post up a discussion behind the curtain and get back to you all the same.

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Holy crap.

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I roll that way too this isn't to say they are by any means common, but if you f*** up hard ICly, there can be consequences.

Really, the riskier plots always feel more entertaining and more intense because it feels like something is at stake.

I bet you feel happier having escaped the Abyss now!

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My waiver still stands! Kill all my characters! I dare you!