AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Inquiry about skipping spawns ( invisibility, stealth, etc)

My character, a Tymorite, cast Greater Sanctuary to "stealth" his way to the part-way shop that sells scrolls and whatnot.

I felt it was a "calculated risk" fitting with the RP of my char.

I was approached by a DM, and no, it did not happen when I did it. Rather, DM Peeves saw my tell to another player who I told when I was using Summon 8 scrolls when all my character could cast was Summon 7.

My purpose isn't to wash my dirty laundry, I thanked the DM and he was very polite about it, for the record...!

I was told that it was "against the rules" or something like that, but in any case, I felt what I did was seen as "innapropriate" and at the same time felt it wasn't the "worse of offenses" but still "frowned upon", at least, that's the feeling I got from our short conversation.

I would wish DM clarification on this as, I was told it causes lag to "skip spawns", and it makes sense y'know.

BUT! At the same time, I was thinking, and my epic rogue skips spawns all the time! For RP, that is.

Example: A group of Paladins are waiting in front of the former "cultists" Lair. My char hears about it Icly.
She then "stealths" her way to spy on them.

Oh wait! She meets a few spawns in the area..... if I follow the logic, I have to then "unstealth" and imperatively kill the undead, at the same time revealing her location, which also means "screwing up" big time.

I would appreciate more information about this, a general consensus on "when it's okay" to skip spawns.

I've heard about alot of people who "boss farm" and "skip right to the boss"....

Also, a high level passes through low level territory. He met a few lower levels in the screen behind. He has the impression they might be coming in this area next, perhaps....
Would he have to kill the spawns he meets at level 30 for 1xp a kill and encumber himself with the useless junk left behind...(to not leave items behind and cause lag) at the risk of removing hunting opportunities for the lower levels that are perhaps coming soon?

Just wish to know the official ruling on this, thanks!

its not against the rules to skip spawns.

What ever the outcome of this is, I wish not to contradict DM Peeves in all this!

He was very nice, but I just thought asking him ten minues of his in game time ask questions and discuss it about the subject was a bit overkill, as i'm sure he had more important things to do, thus my post here.

And for the record a player sent me a tell that it was "against the rules" too after I told him, so I guess it doesn't seem clear for everyone, whatever the official ruling is.

Ps: I've got a feeling I asked a tough question in which the answer isn't "black or white"...

It was a rule until creature despawn was implemented,then the rule changed
I quoted Tormak on a thread here but when I tryed to find the thread itself now, I can't find him saying it, I assume it was lost in the hacker attack some time ago.

Tue 22 Jun, 2010 19:59

Peeves wrote:

As a general rule, bossrunning is legal, but not looked upon fondly by the DM team.

that comment can be found in the thread I linked above

"No looked upon fondly"....what's that supposed to mean in practice?

I've heard that response oh SO many times on several RP servers by DM's and wondered.... and sooo?

You get on a DC blacklist for a month?

You get ignored by DM's when you send them tells?

They send you a tell saying "It's not nice, please don't do that! But if you don't want it's okay!" while tickling you and slapping your wrist with a flower, and while giggling merrily under a raindow with unicorns bouncing around under a fine rain of strawberry juice?

I jest, I jest.... no offense

No, but seriously, clarity is often the best solution.

:wink:

Quote:

They send you a tell saying "It's not nice, please don't do that! But if you don't want it's okay!" while tickling you and slapping your wrist with a flower, and while giggling merrily under a raindow with unicorns bouncing around under a fine rain of strawberry juice?

Something like that. We don't really like, it, but it won't get you in trouble (unless you're like abusing it to grief other players.. .i.e. spawning stuff so they die, or spawning and purposefully not killing it so it despawns and they *can't* fight it). That said: We don't really like it and we vastly prefer that people at least take the time to crush the minions before they crush the boss. It's only polite dramatic convention, after all.

Last time that I checked I do not think Amia DM's can view Tells as they are private.

You were only able to cast summon 7 but using level 8 scrolls? That rather suggests you must have been a lower level at the time and using GS to 'stealth hop' to the half way house shop might well be frowned on then.

Also... crushing minions is FUN!

Crush the weaklings! Make their leader squirm as they watch their people DIE! :twisted:

As long as you have proper IC rationale for it, it should be quite okay. For example, getting to a hidden shop through the guardians might be a perfectly excusable action, whereas running through the Manor spawns to see if Badoc drops any epix this time is a not so very good one. In the making of rationale for your character, however, try to make it as conventional as possible.

I've never heard that bypassing spawns was against any rule and can't really fathom why it would be, assuming of course you're not doing it to overtake another person in an area and bypass them rudely. One point stealth and invisibility is to wisely pick your battles and if your character is smart enough to realize that there's little to be gained from fighting every 3 steps from point A to B and had the means or expertise to avoid frivolously avoid risking a needless death, why wouldn't they?

"Defeating" an encounter doesn't just mean putting it to the sword or spell. The benefit of stealth is not wasting energy you don't have to. (Although to be fair, more monsters probably should have see invisibility and the ability to detect greater sanctuary ingrained into them as these spells aren't exactly something that come at a cost really.) I would doubt lag is a serious issue since spawns despawn relatively fast on these servers.

Lone Wolf wrote:

I've never heard that bypassing spawns was against any rule and can't really fathom why it would be.

it was along time ago, back then monsters would not despawn, so when you had a person run though all of firegiants and manor to shank the boss to get epic loot there were like 100 monsters standing around till like reset or someone killed them.

Thanks for the replies.

Athyonn Ursidae wrote:

Last time that I checked I do not think Amia DM's can view Tells as they are private.

You were only able to cast summon 7 but using level 8 scrolls? That rather suggests you must have been a lower level at the time and using GS to 'stealth hop' to the half way house shop might well be frowned on then.

Also... crushing minions is FUN!

Tells certainly can be monitored, recorded and viewed, just not in real time persay.

Also bosses and spawns should have a rape-whistle script that attracts other similar factioned or resref'd monsters to them in that area, so if someone does scream past a group of spawns and goes after the nuggety center of that tasty treat they should converge at their master or leaders behest and swarm the idiot stupid enough not to take apart their defenders.

Obviously wouldnt work for fire giant royalty but there are a few bosses who can be exploited with invis/ts and lead to their ghastly demise.

psycho wrote:

I was approached by a DM, and no, it did not happen when I did it. Rather, DM Peeves saw my tell to another player who I told when I was using Summon 8 scrolls when all my character could cast was Summon 7.

If that is so frowned upon then why can you buy level 7 scrolls (which are -really- good on lower level) in Wiltun's shop where you can go far before you can cast that spell yourself?

Between level 5 and 10 or so you can easily afford a few of those scrolls and are far below the level you can cast the spell yourself.

If that is so frowned upon, I suggest removing them from this shop and putting them somewhere you can only get to around that level.

Those scrolls cost quite the big bit of change iirc. So while their use might certainly violate the spirit of the rules, it also is a calculated risk in their use. If you set your sights to high or someone dispells you theres a chance those few thousand coins just got wasted. Similarly if youve no invis to sit behind while your powered up spawn steamrolls things.

Really it does seem like an abuse of the fact durations were set with the thought of "Well we could use established protocol's for Hours duration or I can just make up my own skewed as shit time system and call it a day." So a level 1 can have a summon stroll around for 1100+ seconds trainwrecking shekats where as normally it should have it for say 60-120 whatever the actual time calcs are.

I dont think we at this stage should penalise folk for being smart enough to realise this is a thing which can be done. Just like loading up on a single package from speedy to instantly get your level and save all the walking around BS. Sure it's broke, but it "In theory" should allow for people to get the tedium of grinding out 30+ levels done with to focus on rping and enriching the server by their presence. Which is a thing I'm told.

I fully disagree. You can easily have 20k or more by level 5-6 if you do 2-3 rounds in the kobold or orc caves.

P.S. and then people put that gold into scrolls instead of gear to get gold for gear and heals very easily by ltting the summons do the work and not needing either.

Feonir wrote:

Athyonn Ursidae wrote:

Last time that I checked I do not think Amia DM's can view Tells as they are private.

You were only able to cast summon 7 but using level 8 scrolls? That rather suggests you must have been a lower level at the time and using GS to 'stealth hop' to the half way house shop might well be frowned on then.

Also... crushing minions is FUN!

Tells certainly can be monitored, recorded and viewed, just not in real time persay.

Also bosses and spawns should have a rape-whistle script that attracts other similar factioned or resref'd monsters to them in that area, so if someone does scream past a group of spawns and goes after the nuggety center of that tasty treat they should converge at their master or leaders behest and swarm the idiot stupid enough not to take apart their defenders.

Obviously wouldnt work for fire giant royalty but there are a few bosses who can be exploited with invis/ts and lead to their ghastly demise.

They can be yes. My point was that I do not think Amia =does=. Most servers do not these days simply because its considered a breach of privacy.

The rule of thumb is to not do it if it causes grievance to other players. Its time wasting. For everyone.

For example: I'm killing my way through things laughing maniacally as I go along, then out of the fog, I catch a glimpse of a non-talking, fully buffed person running past. I ponder for a moment if they'd like to join up to make the process quicker, but they don't stop or even answer my tells. At that moment, I then decide to skip spawns aswell to track down my new "boss" and thoroughly deliver some poetic justice. The amount of whining I have to put up with after the arse kicking is enough to make me yawn etc. which is irritating and messes with the zen thing the server had going.

Anyways, the point was that messing with the zen thing is bad because it wastes time you could be doing stuff. Don't mess with the zen thing!

As for the scroll thing... Amarice, its thoughts like those (as sarcastic as they are) that took away the Rag Dolls all those years ago. Leveling's been much more difficult since and with the slow decline of players as time rolls on, its not going to get any easier. A few gimmicks won't hurt.

Quote:

If that is so frowned upon, I suggest removing them from this shop and putting them somewhere you can only get to around that level.

This should be done anyways because level 3's running around with avengers and clockwork horrors is just stupid

So were the Rag Dolls

Ditching them was the BEST change

Levelling is NOT HARD.

Athyonn Ursidae wrote:

They can be yes. My point was that I do not think Amia =does=. Most servers do not these days simply because its considered a breach of privacy.

To my full knowledge there has never been a situation where we dug into logs for Tells ever in the history of the entire server. It is a line we don't cross.

TormakSaber wrote:

Levelling is NOT HARD.

I dunno, I struggle pretty bad on this server

There's very little margin for error, sometimes I get killed just by zoning into the wrong area and getting eaten before my loading screen goes away. Also, boss mobs are always STUPIDLY higher level than the dungeon they are in. Lich in electric castle? Beetle Queen in Khem? vampire bitch in GUlodrand crypts? Good luck doing her quest in the proper level bracket. I don't even try going solo most of the time

A "leveling guide" that simply consists of a list of zones/dungeons and suggested level brackets would be extremely helpful for the navigationally challenged. And yes, I've tried "finding out IC". Both by wandering and dying and by asking other characters. (Despite the fact that I think trying to force leveling to be IC is really tacky and a pet peeve of mine.)

Sorry, Tormak, I <3 you, but i have to say this much.

Leveling is NOT HARD. For you.

Leveling /is/ hard for some of us. Whether it's through bad luck or a lack of innate skill, for some of us, it is a pain right in the left buttcheek. I don't know how some of my girls would be above 10 without those scrolls.

Rough at first, isn't it? After a few characters under my belt i simply learned what sort of mobs do what, and what their weaknesses are. Myra, herself, only really has a weakness to spellcaster mobs who can eat her pets, and lately has been dominating relatively powerful mobs and buffing them to roll through melee-oriented areas. She's an enchanter, and is getting interesting RP out of it as well.

Ultimately, trial and error-- In order for anyone to have ever made a leveling guide for anything, there had to have been pioneers to first go out and explore the server. I believe the intention to be that every character who goes out and fights is an explorer, who can call on more experienced folk if that just isn't their cup of tea.

I honestly think a few more quests to help folk get to 20 would be great... i don't mean xp rewarding quests, more like "Now that you've killed the orc chieftain, you've proven yourself strong enough to tackle a stronger job." Give a little more direction to at least 1 viable enemy type in ascending orders of power. Sort of like Delivery Quests -> Rat Quests -> Kobold Quest -> Orc Quest.

Levelling = is easy, you just have to have a party.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Levelling is NOT HARD.

I dunno, I struggle pretty bad on this server

There's very little margin for error, sometimes I get killed just by zoning into the wrong area and getting eaten before my loading screen goes away. Also, boss mobs are always STUPIDLY higher level than the dungeon they are in. Lich in electric castle? Beetle Queen in Khem? vampire bitch in GUlodrand crypts? Good luck doing her quest in the proper level bracket. I don't even try going solo most of the time

A "leveling guide" that simply consists of a list of zones/dungeons and suggested level brackets would be extremely helpful for the navigationally challenged. And yes, I've tried "finding out IC". Both by wandering and dying and by asking other characters. (Despite the fact that I think trying to force leveling to be IC is really tacky and a pet peeve of mine.)

1: You named the only three outlier bosses on the server. They are this way because they are old and improperly done.

2: A levelling guide? This isn't WoW.

3: God forbid the progression of power and advancement of character be IC.

Last edited by serbiris on Wed, Dec 28 2011, 4:54 AM, edited 1 time in total.

O'Raghailligh wrote:

Levelling = is easy, you just have to have a party.

Exactly. BUT. This is the problem. Now, I'm not saying it's bad that it's all calibrated for parties - it's a multiplayer game after all. But there are time zones where there'll be all of ten people on either server and none of them will be your level range (this is more problematic for mid-levels, the playerbase seems to cluster around low and high levels - though high levels are more often the ones who don't want to grind). Gods help you if you're playing a socially-unacceptable race/class or in the Underdark. So you really have no choice but to solo, and for some classes/builds that's a pretty lousy option.

It's not utterly terrible, but there's a reason I've only managed to get one character to max level after a significant play time. Leveling ain't easy for all of us.

leveling isnt hard if you find a party or you have a build designed for soloing... i took a two week break came back and made a new character... looking at the numbers I knew I wouldn't find a party so I went with just a druid because I know I can solo as a druid easy... and still when ever I walk the road.. go into cordor... ive seen six characters so far... thats it... in four days of playing I have only came across six others... and them I know from OOC knowledge to be epic.

NinjaClarinet has a point... resort to the party ball or stand in Cordor until a reset and hope to find someone in your range... other wise you are screwed. Hell... I never even ran into my levels when i did kobolds/orcs/trogs/trolls/spiders... and so far I have seen no one in FOD... 4 days from level 3 to 12 and not one player/character my level to party with... this is why I made a druid I knew I could solo with.

edit and disclaimer:

I don't count the Mulans because most of that is prearranged through MSN or PMs.

TormakSaber wrote:

2: A levelling guide? This isn't WoW.

Not any sort of "go here and take this route and do these quests sort of guide, but a simple "area and it's level bracket" list would be nice. Such a list would be helpful for developers as well, as it would bring it light the awkward gaps that exist.

TormakSaber wrote:

3: God forbid the progression of power and advancement of character be IC.

The progression of power is perfectly IC. The method in which is done is not. Doesn't make much sense that doing laps in the spider forest makes you a better arcanist/lock-picker/healer/whatever and we all know this, and the job system alleviates that to a ~small~ extent, but I don't particularly like forcing the illogicality into my RP when it can be avoided. I'll happily indulge the OOC game mechanic otherwise.

Quote:

The progression of power is perfectly IC. The method in which is done is not.

Apparently practicing combat magic (which is what you're doing when you're hutning) or being a fighter and practicing fighting, and things of this nature are... um... not IC for getting better at combat and stuff and...

Yeah.

Whatever.

You're wrong is my point. You've made the grievous mistake of stating that fighting is completely separate from XP and RP, which couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, I go so far as to contest your statement: The job system with a few exceptions, is WORSE for transmitting exerience than fighting. What does being a good blacsmith have to do with attacking 4x a round and being a weaponmaster? What does making Mythal tubes have to do wth learning TimeStop?

I ran a roleplay server on a small non-DnD game years ago, and honestly the ONLY workable solution to the "Why does this make me a better this" problem for roleplay was the complete elimination of levels, stats, and monsters to kill. When people wanted orcs to kill, bedamned people got together and made an orc faction for the good of the server.

It was great, but you don't want that. Really don't want that.

TormakSaber wrote:

The job system with a few exceptions, is WORSE for transmitting exerience than fighting. What does being a good blacsmith have to do with attacking 4x a round and being a weaponmaster? What does making Mythal tubes have to do wth learning TimeStop?

job system... people run around and pick fruits and make juice then turn into Elminster Jr.

not to mention the few people who do the min-max builds that are ruff at the start and just job system level (because they will never touch the job system anyway so pick quick EXP jobs) I have seen afew people just run laps around the mine in frozenfar and drop everything on the ground they mined.

corypx wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

I have seen afew people just run laps around the mine in frozenfar and drop everything on the ground they mined.

I don't suppose you know their schedule? Eh?

... Kidding.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

Not any sort of "go here and take this route and do these quests sort of guide, but a simple "area and it's level bracket" list would be nice. Such a list would be helpful for developers as well, as it would bring it light the awkward gaps that exist.

Information about areas can be found out by asking questions IC. Making an OOC list of where each level can hunt safely is not IC. It ruins RP opportunities more than it helps in any way.

As for the list being helpful for Developers, you're right. It is helpful for them. And if it exists/is made, it's for their eyes alone in their forum.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

And yes, I've tried "finding out IC". Both by wandering and dying and by asking other characters. (Despite the fact that I think trying to force leveling to be IC is really tacky and a pet peeve of mine.)

If by RP opportunities you mean "lame and forced RP centered around a game mechanic", then sure. Most hunting RP is barely better than some RP I've seen where levels are referred to as "seasons", or someone referring to character's "combat style" as being "a fighter, but with some rogue". I've even seen someone refer to a spell having "no save" entirely IC. It's all blargh. Even when I do make the effort to ask, everyone either A) Doesn't know B) Has been level capped so long they don't remember C) Can't be arsed to respond or D) Is plain wrong. There's simply no good way to indicate IC your level bracket without it being horribly contrived, to my satisfaction at least.

It's not forced RP at all. Some people are better in battle than others, it's very simple and completely IC. If you're not creative enough to come up with ways to explain your experience to others, that's your problem. If you party with people that don't RP, that is also your problem. You can very easily leave parties where the other character doesn't talk to you.

If you haven't found people who know or are willing to tell, tough luck. That's just the way things go sometimes.

I don't know why you're being cheeky about it because it's not helping your argument. Not to mention, you're not going to get a list anyway.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

everyone either A) Doesn't know B) Has been level capped so long they don't remember C) Can't be arsed to respond or D) Is plain wrong.

I love it when someone tells my toon IC information that turns out to be wrong. It helps immersion, and gives another reason to seek out that someone ICly and give them feedback on their crappy info, ICly.

yeah we dont need Amia wiki or any else turning into WoWhead...ect where its like

"pick up quest here to get the flower then from X location go to south west exit then, south, south,west,west, north, north,north and its in the middle of the map"
"Trolls have 1000000 HP 50% more from fire/acid 666 regen, 1AC and AB or 4/3/2/1."

just my 2 cents.

leveling is easier on this server than others ive played on regardless of build/class/level/whatever. i know because ive tested countless builds in the name of boredom. i have almost never once hit a snag leveling from 1 to 30 in only a few short days of fairly dedicated playing.

example: play a wizard. just have your familiar and a summon tank literally everything while using buffs to keep them up. only a bit tough in the beginning but once you know how to work the possess familiar mechanic just right it's pie. once your a higher level its brainless, all you have to do is watch your exp and gold soar into the thousands only breaking your click-less grind to collect loot. the game plays itself at epic levels save for the rp.

example 2: playing a meleer. easy at low levels as long as you have 2 things, a flame weapon scroll and heal kits. if you stick to what you can solo and join up with someone every now and then you can grind to 30 fairly simply b relying on potions or if your build savy, some UMD items. the method is more involved for a meleer than a magic user i think but thats only my personal playstyle (not saying it isnt more fun, because sometimes it is).

so with those 2 short examples without giving away any of the grinding locations or particulars you can see that there isnt much to it. i personally think its hardest for stealthy characters to level as it breaks sneak to attack but then again i dont like to play that kind of character so i cant say for certain how its done. my point is that its easy to get to 30 on this server and should only take you a week tops if you just go for it.

DISCLAIMER: i do not in any way support this sort of method over actually playing the game and RPing.

Quote:

There's simply no good way to indicate IC your level bracket without it being horribly contrived, to my satisfaction at least.

If someone says they can manage the werecreatures of the Forest of Despair alone just fine, but the Mylocks are a struggle, then I'd say you have a good idea of what bracket they're in.

Uberuce wrote:

Quote:

There's simply no good way to indicate IC your level bracket without it being horribly contrived, to my satisfaction at least.

If someone says they can manage the werecreatures of the Forest of Despair alone just fine, but the Mylocks are a struggle, then I'd say you have a good idea of what bracket they're in.

+1

Yea, maybe if you've played on the server for long enough to have found that out via exploration and experimentation, also depending on the build, that level range can vary by quite a bit. For new players or those that haven't found out the hard way, it may not be so clear.

All you need to know is the things you've fought so far and how well you did, so it scales all the way down to the likes of the Wiltun cellar goblins.

Just to point out, This topic has gone way off topic, But here is my 2 cents.

This Server is EXTREMELY easy to level on then most other servers, be it through rping, Leveling or the Job system. Don't like hunting? Rp your hearts out to earn DCs and burn them for exp while doing the Job system, find that too slow? find a group and make sure you Rp you character correctly to make the others know that you or your pc have no idea what the hell they're doing, people will help you, You just gotta ask, It's not that bloody hard.

As for finding leveling hard due to 'Lack of Skill' play a simple and basic character, say a Fighter/wm, it is basically set up to fight anything, and if you need help with even that, just ask, People will help you, And if you then still can't play the game right, Then you should just simply stop, because you lack the motor skills to play this game.

I've probably said a few things in this that need a bit of brushing up, but screw it, I'm too tired to fix it.

Inquiry about skipping spawns ( invisibility, stealth, etc)

Who is online