AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Last edited by Ulir on Fri, Feb 26 2016, 13:00 PM, edited 3 times in total.

Spectre: States it has 3d6 sneak under feats. Should have 5d6.
Drider: It grants you +3 hide/ms when it should grant +20.

Things I found so far..

Last edited by Ulir on Thu, Nov 12 2015, 18:04 PM, edited 1 time in total.

*error*

Spectre: Can confirm, the hide only has 3d6 on it as well; I can't remember what was said about why.
Drider: According to the hide it doesn't give any hide/MS. My char sheet only goes from 38 to 44 Hide/MS, which accounts for the DEX increase. So it doesn't have any bonus.

Risen Lord: I'm fairly certain when I'm underwater in the shape it always says I'm protected because shifted. But, then, I always have the Crab Helm on, too; though the message states I am a creature that is immune.

What do you mean by 'the hide'?

Driders are - according to the shifter spreadsheet - supposed to get 20 to discipline, move silently and hide, but doesn't get that bonus.

Some shapes are meant to work underwater, yes. Why this isn't the case, I don't know. I suddenly died underwater and it kept rolling drowning dice while dead. I don't feel like losing more xp and gold testing it with other shapes, like elementals and undead. I might grab one of the my older shifters I don't play and see if other shapes are bugged.

Sorry, the hide is the creature hide that gets applied to the shapes and gives the majority of the bonuses (kinda like on a NPC creature, if you're familiar).

The Drider does get the 20 Discipline, my sheet reflected that; but it didn't get any bonus to hide/MS which is bad. Also remember that if you have gear with a +5 Discipline bonus and you use a shape with a Discipline bonus of 10, you only get a 10 Discipline bonus (like with only taking the highest ability bonus).

Were you fighting the Saughin in the Sea? The clerics have on hit kill undead on their weapons; I didn't know that until my shifter was instajibbed once haha. When you die you deshift, so the drown check rolls make sense.

Did the shifters get nerfed in regards to item merging? Last I played, only the highest item stat merged into your shape. If the shape got a bonus of +10 to discipline for instance and you had +8 disc gloves on, it would add up, not override your items.

I will test things with this new information again.

The sahuagin got anti-undead weapons now? Perhaps they always had, but I never suffered from it before. Alright, seems like they are impervious to drowning, but not to undead killing items. Thanks, that sheds light on things.

Any other grand changes that happened to shifter in the last few years I should know of?

It's always the highest bonus that override, I think that's a Bioware thing. So if you have a +20 hide item and the shape gives +15 hide, you get +20 hide; likewise if the shape gets +25 hide you get +25 hide.

I believe the weapons are onhit, probably with a small % chance to activate and a low save; so they have to roll the low % first and you have to basically roll a 1, heh. I only got hit once with it after a long while, so I just stopped being undead down there haha.

Most of the changes have just been balance things; and that's all on the shifter sheet (barring a few oopsies; like Iron Golem wasn't immune to elec like it was supposed to be, and the Spectre thing). Oh, and Expertise and Imp Expertise can't be used while spamming shifter abilities.

Thanks. I did know about the empower spell, expertise etc. changes and the nerfs (mainly) added not too long ago. I recall having a +15 hide/ms on my cloak back then and did know others used it as well back then.

*Temporary bug, fixed now*

Khem: Sand Minotaur Maze
When exiting location, there is need to unshift. I think there is no need to do it anywhere else.

This also happens in the Shade of Brogendenstein - Khazatt Murr rift, both to Brog and From Brog back to the Shadow Plane.

It may also be worth chekcking the Endir's Point rifts as well.

This also happens in the ash caverns (the climbing portions of that dungeon), unless it has been changed since I last played.

I removed Graven's post cause it is not something for public reading. If you read it, know that if you exploit it you can be punished.

The temp fix for it is to drink a Lesser Restoration (or Antidote/Neutralize Poison/etc).

Stone golem shape doesn't seem to merge properly as I'm getting no bonuses from any items, including regen from boots, rings etc, and ability bonuses from armor, bracers, belts etc.

Str bonuses from belt aren't merging with greater earth elemental shape, however the +2 con bonus on my armor is, as is the dex bonus from the armor, but not from the bracers. The same appears to be true for all greater elemental shapes.

Dragon shape is not merging any stat on my Raven feather robes even though it's supposed to merge armor into the shape.

Large Dire Tiger doesn't appear to merge any stats from any items. The same seems to be true for all beast forms, however humanoid forms, such as drow, medusa drider etc are merging as they're supposed to. Mindflayer seems to not merge anything same as beast forms and stone golem.

In all cases I'm getting 2 reports of "Stale temporary properties detected, cleaning item". could it be that it's removing the stuff from merging?

Unsure if this is a bug that's just gone unnoticed, the post on item merging is wrong or if it's because this character predates the shifter rework and the shifter/monk ac nerf and haven't been rebuilt since and that's causing all kinds of buggyness.

The last time I used Stone Golem (within the past week) everything merged as usual (helm, armor, belt, gloves, boots). Did you have a weapon? If you don't carry one, nothing merges (thanks Biobama).

Earth elementals are not shifter shapes, but the druid ones so that might explain why they act differently (Wildshape was always different, I think?).

I just checked again and everything was merging as it should. I did confirm that if you are not carrying a weapon and you shift into a shape with a weapon the gear merges, but if you shift into an unarmed shape nothing merges. If you are carrying a weapon, then everything merges. Darn Biobama :p

Oh wow yeah, it worked when I used a weapon and not at all if I don't.. Never knew about that so I guess I gotta find a weapon to run around with now, even if I'm mostly just using shapes that don't benefit from weapons in the first place.

Heh, yeah silly NWN mechanics.

Naivatkal wrote:

I removed Graven's post cause it is not something for public reading. If you read it, know that if you exploit it you can be punished.

The temp fix for it is to drink a Lesser Restoration (or Antidote/Neutralize Poison/etc).

I am curious (and will leave my inquiry intentionally vague); has this been fixed yet? Sure makes playing Shifter a pain if you need to correct this glitch nearly every shift, and it has been a problem since the creation of the class. Not necessarily a new thing.

A DM confirmed that forms such as nymph, fairy (quested and DM granted) shape shifted forms do not grant the bonus of normal shape shifted form. An oversight from once shifter was adjusted. Please fix this as I would love to use the fairy form to smite all the forces of evil. Or the nymph form to become a nun.

Note: While not a 'bug' the drow male form should not have a mustache as elves are not capable of growing facial hair.

Merged this into the shifter bug thread.

What 'bonus of normal shape shifted form' are you referring to?

Naivatkal wrote:

Merged this into the shifter bug thread.

What 'bonus of normal shape shifted form' are you referring to?

The AC bonus is my guess. Since the new shifter forms get AC based on their druid/shifter levels they are more competitive but the goblin/fey/etc forms that are picked up lack the AC bonus. I don't know if this is something that can be fixed though since each of those forms are a separately coded polymorph and not part of the standard shifter shape progression line.

Yeah, those forms are like.. literally over a decade old, don't merge items, don't have AC, nothing, they're just their own specific things before a shifter change was ever even conceptualized.

Not sure if this is because of the update to some of the other forms, but the kobold commando doesn't seem to apply hide bonuses correctly anymore as I don't gain any hide at all from the mass camo or one with the land.
29 base hide
20 from the shape
15 from the cloak merge
11 from dex
---
Should be 75. I get stuck at 60. I figure it's because the cloak doesn't merge for some reason? But if that's it, then why aren't I getting the +3 hide bonus from the armor instead?
Even if I cast mass camo or one with the land. I get stuck at 60. It's like there's an invisible cap there, and it simply can't be from the +50 skill cap, because 29+11+50 does not 60 make. Before the last shifter update, this was working fine and I got up to 90 hide at times, now there's this invisible wall at 60 that I can't climb over. If I cast camo BEFORE shifting, I do get the +10 bonus, but still not the one from Mass camo or one with the land.

The iron golem poison breath also seems a bit buggy as the DC appears to be stuck at 17. Not sure if that's intended or just something that got omitted.

This is because the +20 from shape counts as bonus and so does the +15.

The +20 takes precedence and the +15 is ignored. Hence the reason you are at 60.

Might be, but then why doesn't the spells add bonuses anymore unless cast before shifting?
I'm not getting the bonuses from mass camo and one with the land if I cast it while shifted. If I cast one with the land or camo before, then I get the bonus. It seems that the change to remove spells on unshifting did something to stop them from applying hide bonuses when shifted and making them rather pointless for the commando, except to buff a friend.

Quote:

I'm not getting the bonuses from mass camo and one with the land if I cast it while shifted.

O, this is actually a bug, yes.

I'll start with this:

"Ability Overwriting
If a Shifter shifts into a form with a physical ability higher than their own (for instance, a Shifter with 12 Strength shifts into Drow with 20 Strength), then the higher value will overwrite. This works in reverse, too: if a Shifter with 24 Strength shifts into Drow with 20 Strength, then their Strength would remain at 24 as it is the superior amount."

This isn't happening exactly right I don't think. When one shifts and has higher base abilities than the shifted form, the excess ability is applied as a buff and counts as the one ability item you get toward your skin. So it's limiting in that way. Additionally I found, that when the ability is on an odd number (25 str for example), when shifting it to something with less str (let's say drow with 20 base str) it drops the str to 24, and is still applied as a buff. I only did a few tests with that part, so maybe it's not like that with all forms. But it's also dispellable. Which isn't good... Is there any way to fix this?

An update on my findings! Looks like the excess abilities being dispelled (since they are applied as a buff) doesn't always happen. Not sure what triggers it, but I know it happened to me a couple times. Though since it is applied as a buff, still restricts unintentionally.

Also spectre still has 3d6 sneaks.

Both tested on Druid, not a Shifter.

Dragon shape doesn't merge its intended Armor slots (Chest/Head/Shield)

AC doesn't merge over at all on Elemental shapes. (Should be converted to Deflection, only taking highest)

elemental shape merges nothing iirc. neither do any of the wild shapes. making those forms essentially useless outside of some niche spellcasting; unless you like +20 to hit or 34 ac at level 30.

dragon shape does merge its intended slots, but only merges raw stats, feats, and regen, and only the highest stat. it does not merge +save gear or any resistance gear at all.

Ergo if you are a dragon druid get +3 to each physical stat on those three items and you're literally as geared as you can possibly be because literally nothing else on your gear functions.

also do not forget that because you are a dragon shape druid not a shifter your dragon breath is super nerfed compared to the shifter version.

also note that using a custom dragon shape via the skin changer, using an ioun stone, custom shifting, and then reverting back to normal removes the ioun stone effect. sometimes activating the skin changer removes the ioun stone effect.

i discovered this on my own via mythal experimentation and have brought it up on the bug forum a few times already. it's 'known' just not written anywhere.

oh yeah don't even TRY and put +stats on your weapon, they explicitly don't merge either.

seriously, energon +3 helm, flawless to get +3 stat on your shield (since shield AC doesn't merge so just go +3 stats), then either get +5 armor and +2 stat or +4 armor and +3 on torso.

What...

Elemental shapes merge Armor (Head/Chest/Shield), always have, and correctly do on Amia. Bug is they do not merge AC. Either because of some weird bug, or there already being given deflection AC by a custom creature hide or script.

Dragon shape is -suppose- to merge Armor (Head/Chest/Shield) but is currently not merging anything except Weapon.

Weapons are the only thing that do stack with Shifters other gear merge due to the Weapon effects being applied to the creatures weapon, whilst everything else (Armor and items) being applied to the creatures hide. Having a +2STR helm and a +1STR shield is going to give your hide +1STR and +2STR properties, thus it'll use the +2STR and not actually combine them together.

All AC on gear is converted to Deflection when applied to a creatures hide, meaning that it should be applying the highest you had, but not merging them.
A +5 Shield and +4 Chest piece would give +5. A weapon can also only have Deflection AC, so that would stack either.

Dragon shape merges those slots just not all things in those slots.

Try doing what I did, ie stripping naked and applying one item at a time and see what you get.

It's what I had to do to figure out only stats merge.

Cordor Conscript helm (+1STR 5/Bludge isn't merging), nor is anything else tested except for Weapon.

Double check that stuff is still merging with Cor'Xak.

just did. all my stats only gear is merging.

Turns out if you don't have a weapon equipped you don't merge any Armor when using Dragonshape. Merge works fine if a weapon is equipped.

lilmarcat wrote:

Turns out if you don't have a weapon equipped, you don't merge

This is actually the case with most, if not all, the shifter shapes (excluding widgets).

It's because of how NWN handles shifting. If you don't hold a weapon, nothing merges. Pretty sure it's the same with druids and the X Shapes.

Mav has gone through the shifter so most of this has been addressed and altered to other things.

If any new shifter form bugs are found please open a new thread with the new bug found.

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