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Carvelan
 
PostPosted: Fri, Nov 10 2017, 23:38 PM 

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So i have over my years in nwn and mostly on amia played my fare share of mele cleric's almost exclusively the standard 24/5/1 cleric fighter umd/tumble dump one. This time I wanna do something different and focus more on the warrior part with enough cleric to be my own buffer/support.

What I'd be looking for is preferably a cleric/DC combo with maybe 10 dc lvl and as I intend to use a heavy flail (maul) or great axe I feal a tumble class for the extra ac is a must.

So how meny cleric lvl is enough for self buffing and do I really need 20 wis. I mean it would be neat to squeeze in Dev crit in the build if possible. Anyone that have tried something like this that have any advice to offer?

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Mask and Riddle
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 11 2017, 0:57 AM 

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The primary issue is your cleric levels being below 24 would make you susceptible to dispel.

This being the case, I'd either make the cleric component of the build hold a smaller role in buffing, or build a spell book on redundant buffs invade you are dispelled, or not build cleric into your divine champion build at all.

First question is what are your target spells? This determines the highest cleric level you need and the highest wisdom you need. If it's 3 or 4, consider Paladin or Ranger instead of cleric.

Are you putting your DC levels in pre epic? Higher bab, but less epic feats.

Are you taking 4 fighter to get WS/EWS? Or a tumble dump class?


 
      
Raua
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 11 2017, 1:05 AM 

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Well, bare minimum for Self-buffing would be 15 (so long as you have extend spell, you'll want 18 WIS minimum) Since 15 gives you +5 Enchantments. Although, if you plop on an extra two levels to that (17 Cleric) you would get a full spellbook with only 19 Wisdom as a minimum.

Going less than 20 wis means you don't get epic spells, but since it's meant to be less of a spell-focused cleric, this doesn't matter.

When I first saw this, I thought thematically going barbarian/cleric might be neato, but you wouldn't get much tasty barbarian things from it. Aside from that, which appeals to you more?

Bare minimum Cleric? (15 Cleric, 18 Wisdom)-- Extend is a must.
Orrrrr
Full Spellbook Cleric? (17 Cleric, 19 Wisdom)

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xXCrystal_Rose
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 11 2017, 2:37 AM 

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I find from my experience as cleric so far that some of the higher spell slots can be largely disregarded. The important spells are lower/mid range so if it comes down to it having a minimal wisdom score really isn't that crippling and gets you more strength or con out of it. Spell duration is a bit lower of course but still good and you can always rest and refresh and it is still by no means short.


 
      
Mask and Riddle
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 11 2017, 2:48 AM 

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Yeah, 18 cleric for full deflection buff, 15 for the other AC buffs/GMW.

I'd say 15 wisdom min. This will get you max spelled ability buffs in 5th level slots. Think of buffs at 5th and up, you will not have the duration or cleric levels to make them function well. A spell resist of 26 is nice, but barely something critical to have.


 
      
Mask and Riddle
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 11 2017, 2:49 AM 

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Also, this really calls into question what your domains will be?


 
      
Mask and Riddle
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 11 2017, 2:59 AM 

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So, if you take protection as a domain, with a 15 wis, you could cast energy buffer. Also, if you take greater spell focus protection, you can have minor globe of invulnerability last for turns per level, that's immunity to level 3 and under spells. It would also give you shield with resistance to magical (as an element) damage. I'd consider this.


 
      
xXCrystal_Rose
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 11 2017, 4:32 AM 

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Animal Chaos Courage Retribution Strength War are the domains for Uthgar. War is always a solid choice. The domain power and Cats Grace are good. Courage is really good though. Prayer and Divine Power at lower spell slots are amazing if limited on cleric levels, and even better for extend spell usage. They'll be a good buff if you're going dev crit. Chaos and Animal kinda iffy for combat, but animal is always good for rp since Uthgardt people tend not to pray to Uthgar, but to animal spirits instead, like Bear for strength or Raven for cunning. Of the domains Uthgar suppourts War and Courage are both very solid choices, especially if using limited cleric levels/wisdom.

Of course you can always use domains that are not part of your Diety's divine portfolio, if you really wanted, but I'm personally just a bit of a cleric purist like that. Uthgar has strong and varied domains for different roles anyway.


 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 11 2017, 9:01 AM 



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Taking domains that aren't yours doesn't actually work. Unless both your domains align with the deities', you can't actually cast spells.

Also, wasn't dispel changed to taking Character Level, not Caster Level?


 
      
Mask and Riddle
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 11 2017, 12:32 PM 

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If so, that opens a wide net of possibilities. So, yes 15 levels (or 18 for full deflection buff) would be feasible then.

An Uthgar battle priest sounds intimidating to me, especially with Divine Champion.

I can't remember if DC has epic feats every 3 or 4 levels. So a cleric 15, DC 14, bard 1, high charisma (maybe second to str), blasting out divine might/shield with taunt ('cause it screams taunting build to me)

So pre epic cleric 15/DC 5 would net you a total of 9 pre epic feats (10 if human), and 8 epic feats. You would have 16 bab by 20, but can boost that with divine power for 3 min (extended).


 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 11 2017, 12:55 PM 



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http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=89071
This is weird, and I think I misunderstood the changes. Anyway, probably good to read this.


 
      
Mask and Riddle
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 11 2017, 14:06 PM 

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So I got thinking about this, if you did this as a human and started with these stats:

Str 15
Dex 8
Con 14
Wis 14
Int 14
Cha 12

It would net you a 25 str by level 28 if you invested in great strength on levels 21, 24, and 27. This would give you 5 additional feats, I would assume would be EWF, Armor Skin, Overwhelming Crit, Dev Crit, and either epic prowess or Great Str to even out the str. If you took Tuigan human, this would boost your str and free up an epic feat, so you could take both.

Now, you can increase Wis by taking it from Int, Con, and Cha, but it seemed as though you were going for low wis. This would fit with the Courage and War domains that Rose mentioned earlier.

I always take at least 14 int for skills and the possibility of expertise.

On this build, I would think you would only take extend spell, since you would have a small spell investment.

The 12 cha is for the DC powers. You could buff that out to a 24, for a +7 divine damage in Divine Might. You already need to take Power Attack for Dev Crit.

Featwise in pre epic, I'd think: WF, Imp Crit, Extend Spell, Blind Fight, power attack, cleave, great cleave, ?, ?


 
      
xXCrystal_Rose
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 11 2017, 14:35 PM 

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Something like great fortitude and divine might may be good for spare feat spots. Having unblockable divine damage is really handy, especially with divine champion. Something I'm running into as my own divine champion is gearing str/con/cha is pretty difficult having to manage all three abilities so room for elemental resists, saving throws, and regen are sparse. If you have a spare feat Great Fortitude could be a useful one to throw it into because of that. Otherwise Toughness is also solid for an extra 30 hp. That's one more hit that it takes to bring you down. Or even Expertise if doing 14 int so you have that as an emergency option, if you think it suits the rp of the character to sacrifice their fighting strength to defend themselves instead.


 
      
Carvelan
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 11 2017, 14:46 PM 

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Thx a lot guys for all the input. I'm on my phone now so hard to write but I have come to the conclusion that I probably will drop Dev crit and stop the str investment on 20 leaving room. For starting stats I'd say 16 in str 15 wis and maybe 14 cha boosting str to 20 and cha to 18 for a flat +10 damage/ac. The ac in particular would be handy as I intend to use a maul for weapon. As for lvl spread u was considering 18/2/10 cleric rogue dc going 15/5 pre epic.

As a human this would neat me 10 feats pre epic so enough space for both divine might/shield extended maximised and weapon feats. Will have to take material weapon feat to for the maul.

War and curage domains was the intention

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 11 2017, 14:59 PM 



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It's a slightly weird idea, instead of martial proficiency, you go for any other weapon focus, (from simple weapons) take DC, which gives you martial weapon proficiency. Personally, I might for for sling or something, just so I have a bit of ranged, but it is a bit... min-max-ey, and might not fit IC. You'd lose nothing (or at least, not much, leveling might be a bit awkward) and gain an AB on a ranged weapon.
It also depends when you go for DC, and and if you have enough feats to get all of the weapon feats in time.

(Is scummy)


What you should also consider is that your AC is going to be a bit suboptimal, since you won't have Divine Shield up all the time. It should still work, though. Maybe even take that extra feat in a secondary weapon for if you ever would want to swap to sword'n'board for a while.


 
      
Carvelan
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 11 2017, 16:09 PM 

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I actually like the idea of having two weapon focuses. Probably would go trident ot morningstar for the simple weapon though as range weapons wouldn't fit the character. With all the dc bonus feats I could probably even grab 2 ewf and have shield when I need to tank and swap to maul when Im just crushing stuff.

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Carvelan
 
PostPosted: Sat, Nov 11 2017, 23:56 PM 

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So i have spent some time figuring out feats for this and come down to this. Should be 10 pre epic and 6 epic feats if I go 15/5 cleric/DC pre epic and ending at 18/10/2 cleric/dc/rogue

Pre epic : power attack, divine shield/might extended and maximised spell, weapon focus ×2 , blind fight, imp crit heavy flail and lastly kd or toughness (haven't decided yet)

Epic feats : 2x ewf, armour skin, one greater stat (str or cha) to even out stats, epic powers and epic fortitude.

Haven't been able to get ingame yet so can't look at the starting stats and calculate the skillpoints.
Decsierd skills would be concentration, discipline, spell craft, 30 Tumble and enough umd to get to 15 with cha maxed out. Taunt would be cool but can probably not fit it in.

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Mask and Riddle
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 12 2017, 2:05 AM 

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taunt would be cross class with rogue, that's why I thought bard (but then you wouldn't have evasion).

Assuming a 14 int and human, and the level breakdown you listed, you would have 31*5=155 + 2*11=22, for a total of 177 skill points. This translates into 5 full skill investments. You would end up with 30 in tumble, 33 discipline, 33 concentration, 33 spellcraft, with 48 remaining points. That's enough to split some into UMD and heal. If you want a boost to skill points, I would suggest starting with a level of rogue, since you are doing 2 rogue levels. This would give you an additional 6*4= 24 skill points, meaning you would have enough for another 2 full skill investments, and then a little more (perhaps open lock, disable trap for a couple points each). While this would lower your bab by 1 point, divine power would boost that up to full bab anyway, which I assume you would be using when you are fighting something with a high ac anyway.

Assuming you have a high Cha, which it sounds like you would, even a cross class taunt investment would pay off, as you would have 16 points, and it sounds like +10 from your cha modifier. Add in any item bonuses you felt like and you would have a good taunt score against any non-caster (and maybe even some casters).

This sounds like a fun build, I look forward to hearing how it goes for you. Please give an update on here when you get it going.


 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 12 2017, 9:48 AM 



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The thing about starting rogue is that you lose one AB, which in most cases, this one included, loses the build one attack. That is hardly ever worth the 18 skill points you lose out on. And, while this is, to an extent, reverted by Divine Power, you don't get attacks from it here on Amia. So, even the bonus you get from those 18 skill points, it's barely ever worth the attack you're losing out on.


 
      
Mask and Riddle
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 12 2017, 11:50 AM 

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*looks up at math. Scratches out 24, writes in 18*

While the -1 ab isn't that big a deal because divine power fixes it when it matters, I forgot that on a 15/5 character, you'd be just at 16 bab by level 20. Yeah, not worth that 4th attack, I agree. Good catch.


 
      
Carvelan
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 12 2017, 17:38 PM 

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I knew that going 1 rogue first lvl would screw me over on apr. What I found out from the nwnwiki though was that DC don't give taunt, wich I thought it did. Now is it worth loosing evasion and swap out rogue for bard to get taunt without crossclass? And I think I'll go 16/4 pre epic as it doesn't change bab or the amount of feats I get but should grant me +1 to fort and will saves.

Will look over starting abilities tomorrow when I can get ingame and try it out. I always mess it up if I try to figure it out in my head.

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xXCrystal_Rose
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 12 2017, 18:03 PM 

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I like the rogue personally! Don't even need evasion specifically tbh. Saves are good. Rogue gives access to some good skills though. I personally skipped taking points in Heal and used rogue/COT for SPOT, and have no regrets. Cowards attempting to despoil the sanctity of honorable battle will not just die, they will be OBLITERATED!

But yea just my personal suggestion, taunt can be handy in the right situations, but it's not a sure thing to work and a whole round is a long time. Especially if making an alpha strike with all the short charisma mod duration buffs ticking away while casting the buff chain and taunting. It's nice, but I'd personally just suggest taking one (or maybe two, but with cleric/cot only one super needed) rogue level for some utility skills.


 
      
Carvelan
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 12 2017, 18:14 PM 

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Spot was my second choice besides taunt actually.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 12 2017, 18:16 PM 



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Evasion is a pretty nice bonus. It isn't really needed, but if you have the reflex, it is really good. That said, your build probably could go for a ring of evasion, or even just forgoe it completely. Personally, I would probably go bard, but if you go rogue, I'd say that second level is definitely worth it.


 
      
Raua
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 12 2017, 18:24 PM 

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Bard gives you listen, which functions about as well as spot.[though, you need to be in detect mode] (Imo, bard gives a superior array of perks for 1 level than rogue does by a longshot)

But ultimately, if you only want 1 level of something; go bard.
2 levels free? Go rogue.

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Mask and Riddle
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 12 2017, 20:37 PM 

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^ this


 
      
Carvelan
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 13 2017, 7:28 AM 

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Okay I think I have a final build done now.
18/2/10 Cleric/Rogue/Divine Champion
Pre epic 16/4 cleric/dc

Abilities
Str: 14 -> 18
Dex: 8
Con: 12
Wis: 15
Int: 14
Cha: 14 -> 18 with one greater cha

10 Pre epic feats: Power attack, divine shield / might, maximise and extended spell, weapon focus morningstar and heavy flail, imp.crit heavy flail, blind fight and extra turning or toughness.

5 epic feats: Epic WF morningstar and heavy flail, Greater cha, armour skin and epic powers or epic fort.

175 skillpoints

33 concentration
33 discipline
28 spellcraft
30 Tumble
33 spot
15 umd
3 points left over

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"Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis." --Sigmund Freud, The Future of an Illusion, 1927


 
      
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