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| Fighter 8/Rogue 15/Weapon Master 7, Human https://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=143&t=83392 |
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| Author: | Naivatkal [ Fri, Aug 21 2015, 4:59 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Fighter 8/Rogue 15/Weapon Master 7, Human |
I was looking for a decent WM build, since I've never really played one, and came across some interesting ones; DEX seems to be calling my name for some silly reason. So I threw together this: Fighter(8), Rogue(15), Weapon Master(7), Human STR: 12 DEX: 18 (26) CON: 12 WIS: 8 INT: 14 CHA: 8 01: Rogue(1): Expertise, Dodge 02: Fighter(1): Mobility 03: Fighter(2): Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus 05: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization 06: Rogue(2): Spring Attack 09: Rogue(5): Whirlwind Attack 10: Weapon Master(1): Weapon of Choice 12: Weapon Master(3): Improved Critical 15: Weapon Master(6): Knockdown 18: Rogue(8): Improved Knockdown 20: Fighter(6): Blind Fight 21: Rogue(9): Epic Weapon Focus 22: Rogue(10): Improved Evasion 24: Rogue(11): Great Dexterity I 26: Rogue(13): Defensive Roll 27: Rogue(14): Epic Dodge 29: Fighter(8): Epic Weapon Specialization 30: Weapon Master(7): Armor Skin Concentration 32(33), Disable Trap 1(5), Discipline 33(34), Hide 31(39), Intimidate 4(3), Move Silently 31(39), Open Lock 1(9), Search 18(20), Set Trap 31(39), Spot 33(32), Tumble 30(38), UMD 26(25), remaining skillpoints 2 However I have also considered 10 fighter/13 rogue in order to acquire Epic Prowess as well. I also thought of cutting end DEX to 25 and have 14 Str/Con? |
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| Author: | Lutra [ Fri, Aug 21 2015, 5:41 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fighter 8/Rogue 15/Weapon Master 7, Human |
Use rapier and max your parry!!!!! |
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| Author: | Ts_ [ Fri, Aug 21 2015, 7:17 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fighter 8/Rogue 15/Weapon Master 7, Human |
I'm no expert, but WM and Rogue don't have a lot of synergy: They both have the same weakness (crit immune targets) and their effects are simply added. Of course, if you can sneak and crit, you're deadly. Especially a build with DEX could use some reliable source of dmg. Power Attack might help here and could be a better investment for the potential Fighter 10 feat. (Trading DEX vs STR is essentially a bit of power attack, too.) And there are lots of subraces that could help with DEX, I think. (Small size is debatable for KD ...) |
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| Author: | Nalkanar [ Fri, Aug 21 2015, 7:57 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fighter 8/Rogue 15/Weapon Master 7, Human |
Try to change it so you can go dual-wield if needed, and besides requirements for dual-wield feats go full strength.  If something is immune to sneak and critic you will at least have good enough strength to kill it with normal weapon damage (plus UMD will let you use flame weapon scrolls  ).
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| Author: | Naivatkal [ Fri, Aug 21 2015, 12:12 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fighter 8/Rogue 15/Weapon Master 7, Human |
But but, that tasty, obscene Epic Dodge! I dislike Power Attack, cause that -AB sucks even with a WM (it only gets +1 AB over a non-WM build). Alternatively I could go higher WM, but it seems a lot of people like just 7 WM. Personally I feel 16 WM is the best, though that ruins the Rogue part of the build. Rogue/WM are really nasty, the only thing you aren't nasty against are undead, constructs, and Palemasters. I know a Rogue/WM IG that is disgusting, solos lots of epic places. |
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| Author: | Opustus [ Fri, Aug 21 2015, 12:20 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fighter 8/Rogue 15/Weapon Master 7, Human |
I'll just quote Uce-sensei, for from his mouth flows wisdom like a bubbling brook. viewtopic.php?f=143&t=80065 Quote: The 44AB in shop gear isn't brilliant, but it's viable, higher than most other Epic Dodgers, and unlike them you have the WM criticals to supply damage to things you're toe-to-toeing with, and Epic Weapon Specialisation when they're immune to crits. Defensively, you've got high 50's for AC in shopbought gear, the counter-intuitively brilliant Epic Dodge, and in PvP you have the ability to run round a corner into sneaky mode and get away from 95% of the server without wearing a scrap of stealth gear. When you're out and about versus mobs you can Knockdown or in party, then your bouncing 9d6 Sneaks and EWS make you very brutal indeed. The various items with Ambi and Two-weapon Fighting mean you can pop a fifth attack into the mix. This is why I chose handaxe for my guy; Galdorn's Legacy has them both, but so does the Duellist's Parrying Dagger, so that weapon is good too, as Dirk Longstride shows. The rest would need the Balanced Hands, which are fine but suffer the fatal flaw of being gloves and therefore meaning you can't wear Epic Disciplines. In PvP, the aforementioned cornersneaking, once you have the hang of it, can often be one-round lethal, especially since you have the Set Trap to make chasing after you round corners extremely dicey, assuming you've had any time to prepare the ground. You're the most dangerous thing in the room for the first two rounds, same as I said for STR/Devcrit Weaponmaster when detailing their soup base, but unlike the brute WM, you can get everyone back into flatfoot by disappearing. Your big downside is Fortitude and even more so Will. It's very hard to get both of them up to workable levels and still have Discipline, DEX and AC, so you're left with the very ropy option of getting Fort up to 38 and praying you'll be fast enough at chugging Mindblank. If that works, though, you're pretty much the best duellist out there. Eats the STR WM for breakfast. There are specialist anti-Epic Dodge builds that can whomp you, but they're nothing like as effective in PvMob, PvBoss and PvP against everything else. I bolded the bit on dualwielding to appease the sceptics. My personal addendum is that for purposes of PvP, and indeed the only situations where Discipline is mandatory, you can even disown the Balanced Hands in favour of the Disc buff with relative safety, though of course being able to switch between sword 'n board and dualwield would grant you full fitness. But even if you played a character with Improved Two-weapon Fighting, you'd be wearing shield for enemy meleers to win the do-si-do. |
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| Author: | Naivatkal [ Fri, Aug 21 2015, 13:27 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fighter 8/Rogue 15/Weapon Master 7, Human |
You know I never think about daggers, haha. That's some good stuff, nice things to ponder :3 |
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| Author: | Opustus [ Fri, Aug 21 2015, 14:08 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fighter 8/Rogue 15/Weapon Master 7, Human |
*you'd be wearing shield to win the do-si-do against meleers who can spot you or if no corner for re-entering stealth is available. |
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| Author: | Nalkanar [ Fri, Aug 21 2015, 16:28 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fighter 8/Rogue 15/Weapon Master 7, Human |
Isnt epic dodge bugged in NWN everywhere? It should block first attack that hits, but it blocks usually first attack. |
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| Author: | Ts_ [ Fri, Aug 21 2015, 16:52 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fighter 8/Rogue 15/Weapon Master 7, Human |
Thanks to the masters, the day is saved. What I'm wondering ... What's so good about WM in this build compared to another full BAB class, like ranger, or just more rogue? If I understand things correctly, the increased multiplier from x2 to x3 is close to 50% more damage on a crit. The increased range increases the crit chance from 30 to 40% (on a 19-20/x2 base weapon). So .... base dmg * (1 + 0.3x1) vs base dmg * ( 1 + 0.4x2). What's the avg base dmg on a dexer? 35ish with a good weapon? So all that investment adds about 17 dmg per hit. The same as 5d6 sneak. And, compared to just replacing those levels with Rogue, the WM has +2 AB. Hmm, it's a little bit more, I guess. And also works in duel without much sneaking for whatever reason. Anything else? Juicy OOC-restricted gear for WMs? |
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| Author: | Nalkanar [ Fri, Aug 21 2015, 17:06 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fighter 8/Rogue 15/Weapon Master 7, Human |
Well, one of most favorite thing to do with WM is to take either weapon with big critical range (scimitar, rapier) and you can make it so, that basically 2 of your attacks (or 3 in 6 with dual wield) are crits. On Amia I believe it can be especially powerful if you reach devastating crit. Other posibility is to go with weapon with big multiplier (scythe, axes) - you don't hit with critic as often, but it really REALLY hurts! Crit as it is... well I haven't looked at mechanism for quite some time (lately playing mostly casters), but since dex does NOT give you any damage you are losing quite a bit. If I remember correctly if you hit you do "weapon damage + str + feats + some weapons properties", critical let's you roll all of this again (x2 multiplier) and again (x3) and again (x4) and again (x5). Everytime there is str bonus in, if you go full strength and have right equipment etc. it makes basically +10 to +15 damage (guessing here) on each of this rolls. Basically with weapon with x3 multiplier it could be up to 45 damage (guess again). As far as I've seen random loot, there are some WM weapons that looked really good. But that depends on your weapon focus and luck with loot. |
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| Author: | That Guy [ Fri, Aug 21 2015, 17:14 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fighter 8/Rogue 15/Weapon Master 7, Human |
At the end of the day... an ED WM will beat a Devcrit WM, assuming both are geared well. Sure, if the dexer didn't have enough fort... yeah, that can hurt. Also, there is that 1/400 chance of a devcrit working, but in most cases, the dexer will win. It's a long battle, and the dexer won't do a ton of damage at a time, but... they won't get hit hardly at all. As for ED being bugged... nope, works as written, first HIT is negated. |
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| Author: | Nalkanar [ Fri, Aug 21 2015, 17:18 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fighter 8/Rogue 15/Weapon Master 7, Human |
That Guy wrote: As for ED being bugged... nope, works as written, first HIT is negated. First server where I hear it's working properly.  But I would put my money on devastating build. But maybe it's cause of experience with other servers and not so much on Amia. |
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| Author: | That Guy [ Fri, Aug 21 2015, 17:42 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fighter 8/Rogue 15/Weapon Master 7, Human |
Well... as someone who duels a lot. You'd lose those bets. I can name at least 3 ED WM builds that are known for being VERY good, even against Devcritters. Now... that only holds if they can get their fort near 40. If not, yup, devcrit will win eventually. |
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| Author: | OpenTheRift [ Fri, Aug 21 2015, 18:48 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fighter 8/Rogue 15/Weapon Master 7, Human |
Why not 6fig/5wm/19rogue which nets you 2d6 sneak, 16th & 19th rogue feats in exchange for one crit range (can be mitigated in importance by rapier/scimitar) and 1 fig feat. |
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| Author: | wolfurt [ Sat, Aug 22 2015, 4:44 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fighter 8/Rogue 15/Weapon Master 7, Human |
Nalkanar wrote: That Guy wrote: As for ED being bugged... nope, works as written, first HIT is negated. First server where I hear it's working properly. But I would put my money on devastating build. But maybe it's cause of experience with other servers and not so much on Amia. epic dodge will win 99.99% of the time over dev, dev isn't very good at all |
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| Author: | bobofwestoregonusa [ Mon, Aug 24 2015, 18:40 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fighter 8/Rogue 15/Weapon Master 7, Human |
Wolfurt is right, if you're fudging for 1's anyway just get an onhit: stun weapon. The results are close enough and in pve you kill stuff so fast dev crit doesn't matter as a wm. |
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