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Aerneth
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 08 2015, 21:38 PM 

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Joined: 28 Sep 2013
Location: Wisconsin, USA

I want to play a half-orc sneak because it would provide some interesting RP. I came up with the following build...

Beginning Stats:
STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 12
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 12

Ending Stats:
STR: 10
DEX: 24
CON: 12
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 12

1) [Rogue 1] Two-Weapon Fighting
2) [Rogue 2]
3) [Rogue 3] Weapon Finesse
4) [Rogue 4] DEX+1 [17]
5) [Rogue 5]
6) [Rogue 6] Ambidexterity
7) [Rogue 7]
8) [Rogue 8] DEX+1 [18]
9) [Rogue 9] Dodge
10) [Rogue 10] Improved Evasion
11) [Rogue 11]
12) [Rogue 12] DEX+1 [19], Mobility
13) [Rogue 13] Slippery Mind
14) [Rogue 14]
15) [Rogue 15] Knockdown
16) [Rogue 16] DEX+1 [20], Defensive Roll
17) [Rogue 17]
18) [Rogue 18] Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
19) [Shadow Dancer 1]
20) [Shadow Dancer 2] DEX+1 [21]
21) [Shadow Dancer 3] Improved Critical (Short sword)
22) [Shadow Dancer 4]
23) [Shadow Dancer 5] DEX+1 [22]
24) [Shadow Dancer 6] Spring Attack
25) [Shadow Dancer 7]
26) [Shadow Dancer 8]
27) [Shadow Dancer 9] Toughness
28) [Shadow Dancer 10] DEX+1 [23]
29) [Shadow Dancer 11]
30) [Rogue 19] Epic Dexterity I [24], Improved Sneak Attack I

Skills points are dumped into:

Bluff
Disable Trap
Heal
Hide
Move Silently
Open Lock
Persuade
Search
Spot
Tumble

I am not really good with builds.. at all. So I was hoping for some input on this. Does it look alright? Are there changes to be made to make it not sucky?

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Uberuce
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 08 2015, 22:42 PM 

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Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.

Set your starting DEX to 18 so that you can get Epic Dodge. A DEX-base needs an excellent reason not to have Epic Dodge, and this type of build/character doesn't have one.

Shadowdancers get Defensive Roll, Slippery Mind and Improved Evasion for free at levels 5, 7 and 10, so you don't need them from Rogue. Take Crippling Strike at 10 instead.

Go Rogue12/SD8 pre-epic so that your newly freed up Rogue bonus feats at 13 and 16 can be epic ones. An Epic Skill Focus at 13 and another Improved Sneak Attack at 16, for example. Your 11th SD level does almost nothing for you, whereas a single level of Ftr, Barbarian and Ranger have nice things to be said about them.

STR 10
DEX 18
CON 10
WIS 8
INT 12
CHA 12

Is the best stat spread I can do, working on the assumption you require CHA12 for RP reasons. It's worthless for mechanical purposes.

Rogue12, then SD8.

1 Knockdown
3 Weapon Finesse
6 Dodge
9 [optional]
12 Mobility
15 Blindfight
18 [optional]

Go Rogue17/SD10 in epic so that you get Epic Dodge asap, then take your last two Rogue levels and the Other1 in any order you like. I would take Other1 at 29 for reasons of skills pimping.

21 Great DEX I
24 Armourskin
27 Epic Dodge, baby!
30 [optional]

Rogue10: Crippling Strike
Rogue13: Epic Skill Focus(Hide or Spot)
Rogue16: Improved Sneaks I
Rogue19: Improved Sneaks II or an Epic Skill Focus

For one of your optional pre-epic feats and the epic one, I'd take Weapon and Epic Weapon Focus.


 
      
Aerneth
 
PostPosted: Wed, Jul 08 2015, 22:48 PM 

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Joined: 28 Sep 2013
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Cool! I'll give it a try :D

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davis114
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jul 09 2015, 3:02 AM 

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Joined: 16 Dec 2007

I'd post my own thoughts, but...Ruce. 'Nough said.

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MoshingChris wrote:
Dude makes like a drunk even when he's sober.


 
      
Lascer
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jul 09 2015, 3:30 AM 

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Joined: 17 May 2015
Location: Zionyn - 663rd layer of the Abyss

Rogues are the supremely flexible class, so really more information on the concept is needed. Here's my thoughts. (Rogues are my favorite class, forgive the ramble.)

Not to dissuade you from a concept or build, but sneaks don't have to be DEX based. I know it's stereotypical, but a half-orc sneak veritably screams STR base to me. The end result difference in sneak abilities going STR based or DEX based would only be the actually ability modifier, everything else is from skill points, gear, or feats you can take without DEX focus. STR sneaks are fun.

If you go DEX, you definitely want Epic Dodge. That is absolutely true and a Rogue/SD will be plenty flexible and fun. I'm personally not a big fan of HiPS (it's the easy button), but the SD class gives lots of defensive utility. Devoting 4 pre-epic levels to a full BAB class will help your damage output, because that gives you two attacks in your first flurry, the one that gets sneak damage (plus better AB of course). Dual wielding gives that same double sneak attack, but doesn't give you the option if switching out for a shield and still getting it. It also gives you access to better weapons. There's a lot of options, all of which have their benefits, so it just depends on the concept.

Fighter 4 gives you a few extra feats (dual wielders can use them), plus a bit of damage from weapon spec.
Ranger 9 gives you all the dual wielding feats for free, in light armor, but that's a lot of levels to devote... it would 'cost' you 4d6 on your sneak attack.
Alternately 4 BG levels would give you that 4th APR, another d6 to your sneak attack, up to +4 on all your saves (rogues get craptastic saves, so that helps), and -2 to your enemies saves.
Finally there's DC, which would give you two feats, plus +2 to saves.

I'd highly suggest including weapon focus and epic weapon focus, which seems to have been neglected so far. Improved Crit is less useful than the extra AB, as your sneak damage doesn't get multiplied anyways. You need the Ab much more, especially dual wielding.

If you go STR based, the only thing that really changes is that you'll want to be going for Dev Crit instead of Epic Dodge. Half-Orc gets racial STR, so it's a good bit easier. Start at STR 18, and put all your level-up points to STR, and you'll make the req for Dev Crit at level 30. This is the build where Improved Crit will help (and it's a req anyways). Pre-reqs are: 1 Improved Crit, 2 Power Attack, 3 Cleave, 4 Great Cleave, 5 Overwhelming Crit, 6 Dev Crit. That's a lot, so you'll need to free up some feats, or get some bonus ones somewhere.

STR based sneaks want at least 10 DEX. Maxing out your magic bonus for DEX will bring that up to 22, which gives you +6 AC and maxes out studded leather armor AC possibility (all armor can reach a combined AC of 9 here). The final difference in DEX based skills (hide, MS, etc) will be 8 points from a dedicated, DEX maxed Epic Dodger. 7 from the ability difference, 1 from the armor penalty. People like to the DEX builds to max out AC, but a rogues real armor are the shadows, and not getting hit in the first place. The damage difference is honestly minimal, just bits here and there from the higher STR or damage feats (since a lot comes from sneak attack anyways), but someone that gets hit by a sneak attackers Dev Crit is pretty much toast, especially with large weapon or a base 20 crit weapon like a handaxe.

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