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Sorc question
https://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=143&t=82767		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Naivatkal [ Wed, Jul 01 2015, 14:35 PM ]
Post subject:  Sorc question
So, rolling around on my sun elf sorc and got to thinking... if you are playing a CHA focused sorc does it make any sense to take some Fighter to get a little spellswordy or will Tenser's be good enough since spellswords are generally only 20 caster stat; therefore this build has bad STR.

The build is 29 sorc/1 bard. Was thinking either 2 Fighter to get 3 APR or add 2 more after epic for 4 total.

Also, bring back a general question thread making this for one question is killing my OCD D:
Author:  davis114 [ Wed, Jul 01 2015, 14:39 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorc question
So put it under the Classes Sticky? Or the Thanks For All The Fish one. I didn't lock them for a reason ;)

Tenser's is great, but if you want some spell-swordy goodness, it doesn't give you the ability to properly wield a weapon or put on armor. I took a level of fighter on my sorc, just for the ability to actually wear heavy armor. A few fighter levels are definitely a good idea if you want to be a decent spellsword. Are they necessary? No, you can get by. But they do help.
Author:  Maverick00053 [ Wed, Jul 01 2015, 14:39 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorc question
It really depends on a couple things. If you aren't focused on using wail or another DC focused spell and you have all the epic spells you want then I say there is no reason not to go for it.

Honestly, you could hit 20 CHA and then turn around and dump strength to get a couple extra AB. You lose out on some more spell DC and spell slots in general but might be worth it.

Lastly, your AB progress in epic is always 1/2 no matter the class. So if you want 3 or 4 APR you need to take that all preepic.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Wed, Jul 01 2015, 14:47 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorc question
Hahaha I totally missed the 'Thanks' thread XD Feel free to move this thread in there!

With armor, I'd actually be happy with just the shield and medium proficiency; I think there's an elven 0ASF armor in Winya and being an elf he can use a tasty longsword already.

I don't want a dedicated spellsword (unless he goes that way in the future with a rebuild), just some melee goodness would be fun (which is the point of Tenser's anyways). I think, though, that unlocking 3 APR is important for getting the bonus attack with Haste or something? Wait, I think it's about having two attacks on the first flurry with Haste.

He's already at 18 CHA so I -could- go for more STR, but he's primarily supposed to be a caster with tons of CHA and spells and such. Which is why I was leaning for at most 2 Fighter to get that 3 APR. Shouldn't hurt the concept too much; but if it's dandy to just use Tenser's then might just do that.

I've never used Tenser's on a non-spellsword so that's why I am unsure.
Author:  davis114 [ Wed, Jul 01 2015, 14:54 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorc question
Maverick hits it on the head. If you're not going to rely on DC spells, I'd smear some fighter in there. If you are, I probably wouldn't.

As to your OCD, tell you what I'll do. I'll make another category in the Thanks thread called General Questions, and link posts like this to it. That way, it doesn't matter where people originally post them, be it out on the main forum or in that thread.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Wed, Jul 01 2015, 15:46 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorc question
So the point of the build was to make an awesome Sun Elf sorc with lost of spells; 29 sorc/bard 1, 24 base CHA and EMD/EMA/EDK/GR/Hellball. I might jsut stick with Tenser's as the go-to for 'hey let's show some elven swordplay!' but I thought about this as well:

27 sorc/2 fighter/1 bard: looses Hellball but gains 3 APR, WF: Longsword, and Blind Fight (thought that fits an elf far better than any of the other melee feats). Still gets every other spell and 24 CHA; so it's a hard choice. I'll have to consider it, but wanted to see if taking only 2 Fighter is viable to make a 'spellsword' or if I should just say screw it and stick to Tenser's.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Thu, Jul 02 2015, 3:38 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorc question
Do you really want the bard? 27/2/1 rogue or 26/2/2 might work better for you, but I'm an evasion whore.
Author:  bobofwestoregonusa [ Sat, Jul 04 2015, 15:32 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorc question
The only reason to take bard is if you want your dispel DC to be set as though you were a caster level 30, other than that the above works fine but personally I think Monk 1 or 3 is more mechanically sound, since UMD is useless to sorcerers anyway. Monk 1 gives you evasion, tumble, and discipline, while monk 3 uncaps your speed.

That said, Monk speed should be considered an exploit but for some reason it isn't, and members of the DM team have been said and known to use it. Have fun spamming expeditious retreat.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Sat, Jul 04 2015, 15:53 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorc question
bobofwestoregonusa wrote:
The only reason to take bard is if you want your dispel DC to be set as though you were a caster level 30

Que?
Author:  Raua [ Sat, Jul 04 2015, 16:02 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorc question
Naivatkal wrote:
bobofwestoregonusa wrote:
The only reason to take bard is if you want your dispel DC to be set as though you were a caster level 30

Que?


When you take Bard as a Class, and have a positive Charisma modifier, it counts to your effective arcane caster level, rather than taking something like ranger or rogue, which does not. :P
Author:  Naivatkal [ Sat, Jul 04 2015, 16:06 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorc question
What. What. What.

Is that NWN or Amia thing? That makes absolutely no sense to me, lol
Author:  Maverick00053 [ Sat, Jul 04 2015, 16:24 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorc question
-Bioware-
Author:  Naivatkal [ Sat, Jul 04 2015, 18:40 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorc question
Every fiber of my what. lol
Author:  Solvaras [ Mon, Jul 06 2015, 11:30 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorc question
Caster levels dont stack. A 14 cleric/15 druid/1 bard doesnt get dispel immunity as if he were a level 30 caster. A 29 sorc/1 bard is dispelled and casts as a 29 sorc. If it does, by all means link a wiki or hak change that shows it does.
Author:  joe15552 [ Mon, Jul 06 2015, 11:55 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorc question
This is the second thread I've seen someone say something about bard caster levels stacking with sorc... I tried testing it, and it really doesn't look like they do...

I made a level 2 sorc/level 1 bard, and only one little missile comes out when I cast magic missile....
Author:  Raua [ Mon, Jul 06 2015, 12:51 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorc question
Solvaras wrote:
Caster levels dont stack. A 14 cleric/15 druid/1 bard doesnt get dispel immunity as if he were a level 30 caster. A 29 sorc/1 bard is dispelled and casts as a 29 sorc. If it does, by all means link a wiki or hak change that shows it does.


I'll find something someplace soon where this is written >.> But what we're saying is, it effects your Dispel DC. It doesn't effect class abilities, each class is treated as a separate class.

And you are right, 14 Cleric / 15 Druid / 1 Bard is does not have 30 caster levels. It has a dispel check DC of 29, though. Since the divine spell casting classes stack together for that.

:)

joe15552 wrote:
This is the second thread I've seen someone say something about bard caster levels stacking with sorc... I tried testing it, and it really doesn't look like they do...

I made a level 2 sorc/level 1 bard, and only one little missile comes out when I cast magic missile....


Common misconception! :lol: It doesn't effect class abilities. A Sorcerer spell will be cast with your sorcerer levels, but your Dispell DC will be calculated as if you have 3 levels of an arcane casting class--which you do.
Author:  joe15552 [ Mon, Jul 06 2015, 12:59 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorc question
joe15552 wrote:
I made a level 2 sorc/level 1 bard, and only one little missile comes out when I cast magic missile....


Quote:
Common misconception! :lol: It doesn't effect class abilities. A Sorcerer spell will be cast with your sorcerer levels, but your Dispell DC will be calculated as if you have 3 levels of an arcane casting class--which you do.


HUH! That is very interesting.... how the ... how did you figure this out?

So... if I wanted to make a spellsword, and didn't feel like taking 24 levels of sorc to be immune to greater dispel, I could take 22 sorc/2 bard instead?

THIS IS INSANE!
Author:  Raua [ Mon, Jul 06 2015, 13:11 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorc question
Yep, That's why people suggested the bard level for your Discipline / Tumbe / UMD dump. Boosts your Dispel DC, while providing some nice Skill sets which makes it a viable alternative to Rogue, you'd unfortunately lose Evasion, though. Which is why it's not as popular.
Author:  davis114 [ Mon, Jul 06 2015, 13:24 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorc question
Dispelling Information
Author:  Solvaras [ Tue, Jul 07 2015, 20:18 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Sorc question
Quote:
And you are right, 14 Cleric / 15 Druid / 1 Bard is does not have 30 caster levels. It has a dispel check DC of 29, though. Since the divine spell casting classes stack together for that.


I wished it worked this way, but it doesnt. Your buffs will be dispelled at either caster level 14 or 15. This is why you cant play a mystic theurge very well here. Having a mix of divine and arcane classes drops your caster level too low to be effective. Heck, a level 3 dispel magic can strip your buffs.

Potions work differently. A 30 fighter is considered level 30 for dispel checks. a 29 fighter/1 bard is considered level 1 for dispel checks. That's why it's suggested that if you need a tumble dump and only have one level to put towards a tumble dump class you use monk or rogue if you have no other casting classes.

And people suggest using one level of bard for the medium armor and shield proficiencies as well as a skill dump. Rogue doesnt give you shield or the armor that bard does. It has nothing to do with dispel dc's.
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