| AMIA ARCHIVE https://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/ |
|
| Build: WM/Ftr/Rogue; All non-ECL Races; Devcrit Soup Base https://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=143&t=80049 |
Page 1 of 1 |
| Author: | Uberuce [ Tue, Dec 30 2014, 20:49 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Build: WM/Ftr/Rogue; All non-ECL Races; Devcrit Soup Base |
Stats: To account for the difference races here and in subsequent build posts, I'll only put a definite score where it's critical to the build prerequisites; if it's a value added to base, then it's optional, although in this case adding points to anything but CON is weakening the character. If you have a STR-boosting race then you can either stay at 18 and give more love to the other stats or start at 19 and free up an epic feat, or make the jump to 28 end STR. STR: 18 -> 25 from all levelups. Great STR evens to 26. DEX: 13 CON: +4 from base WIS: 0 from base INT: 13 CHA: 0 from base Level order: Ftr6; WM7; Ftr 7,8,9,10; WM 8,9,10. Feats: 1(if Human) Power Attack, and then swap in Improved Knockdown later on, or go for Exotic Prof and that kinda weapon. 1 Dodge Ftr1 Mobility Ftr2 Weapon Focus 3 Spring Attack Ftr4 Weapon Specialisation 6 Expertise Ftr6 Whirlwind Attack ~Houston, we have a Weaponmaster, unless you forgot to crossclass 4 ranks in Intimidate, in which case we have a problem~ 9 Improved Criticism 12 Knockdown Ftr8 Power Attack 15 Cleave Ftr10 Blindfight 18 Great Cleave This version rushes for WM, and tacks on the Devcrit reqs as an afterthought. You can rejig this to rush for Great Cleave at level 4, which, especially for twohandering WMs, makes the 4-10 stretch pass in a heartbeat. Whether that makes the longer wait for WM massacring worth it is something I've never measured rigorously. Epic level order: Rogue1; Ftr 11, 12; WM 11, 12, 13, Rogue2; WM 14, 15, 16 Epic feats: 21: Epic Weapon Focus Ftr12: Epic Weapon Specialisation 24: Armourskin WM13: Overwhelming Criticism 27: Great STR I WM16: Devastating Criticism 30: [Optional]. I don't rate Devcrit as anything but a PvP tool, hence me leaving it till last, but rejigging to get it earlier is none too hard. Up until level 20 for a twohanderer and level 25 for a blade'n'board, this build can solo for XP really fast. Then it hits a brick wall where buffing or tanking is your only hope of seeing more than 20/kill. This isn't actually terrible, mind - a WM can still get XP on the 'whale' model of huge numbers of very small meals quicker than some builds manage on the 'lion' model of a great big meal once every so often. But you'll be unimaginably bored of the giant's voiceset by the end of it. In RP's PvP, the WM is the most dangerous character in the room, as long as it can see everyone, and as long as it's the first two rounds of the battle. After that, your power drops off a cliff as people gather up their ability to kill you. That's sort of the running theme with the stock WM: you're exceptionally deadly, but unless you've got friends who have stopped people trying to kill you, or have buffed your AC and saves/immunities so high that you have become hard to kill, then you're pretty much toast in seconds. Roleplay(hereonin is purely Uberuce's opinions. Unlike the maths above he's not going to argue about them): You have almost no wiggle room on stats, so you're pretty much locked into being a big of an abrasive reckless git, but without the excuse of being stupid. The stat stuff doesn't bother me as much as the lack of Wumbamumba-ness that I have myself been guilty of in the past. A Weaponmaster isn't just someone that's kinda good with any given weapon. That's just everyone who's got Focus and Improved Crits, ie no big deal. A Weaponmaster is someone whose whole being goes electric joogaloo bodysauce totes amaze dead emosh hello to Jason Isaacs when it holds their Weapon of Choice. Weaponmasters should only be able to marry not just polygamous people, but polygamous people at the extreme end of acceptance of being the nonfavoured spouse, because they will be a Hubble Ultra Deep Field distant second to that WM's killingstick. That's where the ridiculous DPS comes from. Be a darling and RP it, yus? |
|
| Author: | nataliawinters [ Sun, Feb 22 2015, 17:51 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Build: WM/Ftr/Rogue; All non-ECL Races; Devcrit Soup Bas |
Hey Uberuce, Just curious after reading your epic dodge build thread what is the worth in this devcrit wm build in the sense that you say the epic dodge will eat the it for breakfast, shouldn't people wanting a strong melee just use the epic dodge build instead? Or is there some use for this build over the epic dodge excepting pvp? Nat. |
|
| Author: | Opustus [ Sun, Feb 22 2015, 18:34 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Build: WM/Ftr/Rogue; All non-ECL Races; Devcrit Soup Bas |
The use is for your character to be big and burly. Also, STR is the obvious choice for devastating damage which, as Uce explains in his post, has a different dynamic in both PvP and PvM compared to the "attrition war" type of its stealthier, epicly dodging counterpart: Quote: In RP's PvP, the WM is the most dangerous character in the room, as long as it can see everyone, and as long as it's the first two rounds of the battle. After that, your power drops off a cliff as people gather up their ability to kill you. That's sort of the running theme with the stock WM: you're exceptionally deadly, but unless you've got friends who have stopped people trying to kill you, or have buffed your AC and saves/immunities so high that you have become hard to kill, then you're pretty much toast in seconds. That is the difference. The fact that Epic Dodge is better than Devastating Critical means that the feat is better; the two builds are still distinguished by their other merits. |
|
| Author: | nataliawinters [ Sun, Feb 22 2015, 18:50 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Build: WM/Ftr/Rogue; All non-ECL Races; Devcrit Soup Bas |
Hi Opustus, Yeah I read both posts so didn't really need a quote from them lol, it doesn't actually explain anything. If it did I would not have had to ask the question in the first place. But never mind I was just curious. Nat |
|
| Author: | Opustus [ Sun, Feb 22 2015, 20:09 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Build: WM/Ftr/Rogue; All non-ECL Races; Devcrit Soup Bas |
I didn't really understand your question then, sorry! |
|
| Author: | nataliawinters [ Sun, Feb 22 2015, 20:27 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Build: WM/Ftr/Rogue; All non-ECL Races; Devcrit Soup Bas |
Opustus wrote: I didn't really understand your question then, sorry! Probably my fault for not being clearer, Dev crit build (dcb) = melee damage Epic dodge build (edb) = melee damage Epic dodge build apparently will eat a dev crit build for breakfast. Question is why would anyone build the dev crit build then? Presumably if the edb is apparently so much better at melee than the dcb it would be the new cookie cutter melee build? Question is also if there is a reason the dcb is useful in none pvp melee over the edb what is it? Again just curious as I currently play an Arcane Archer and might be in the market for a hack and slash melee character for a chance of pace. Nat. |
|
| Author: | Opustus [ Sun, Feb 22 2015, 21:14 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Build: WM/Ftr/Rogue; All non-ECL Races; Devcrit Soup Bas |
That is pretty much explained in the quote and in my answer. Uce's diction precisely is "[The epic dodge WM] eats the STR WM for breakfast." This means that in the toe-to-toe combat of Epic Dodge WM vs Dev Crit WM, Uce wagers his cowmilk on the victory of the Epic Dodge variant. This doesn't allude to the STR WM being inferior by default, it just means that they have different strengths that in a duel would favour the Epic Dodge WM. The biggest perk of the STR WM, as Uce has mentioned many a time and oft, is that you're the game's deadliest damage output, i.e. how likely it is for you to dish out enough damage for your enemy to die. The DEX (Epic Dodge) WM, in comparison, cannot match this lethality, but is more solid and versatile in other ways (better AC, Epic dodge, sneak skills, traps, etc.). |
|
| Author: | nataliawinters [ Sun, Feb 22 2015, 22:42 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Build: WM/Ftr/Rogue; All non-ECL Races; Devcrit Soup Bas |
Yeah not to repeat myself but the quote doesn't actually make anything clear as to what use the dcb is over the edb. And if the dcb has such lethal damage output why is it "eaten from breakfast" by the edb, that is a pretty unequivocal statement of power for the edb and does in fact clearly state that the dcb is massively inferior. If it can be eaten by the edb then it therefore follows that whatever lethality the dcb bring it is comprehensively trumped by the lethality of the edb. So I will ask again and hope for a plain English answer as to what does the dcb have going for it that the edb does not that would make anyone chose it over the edb. Point of note Uberuce says that both builds are best in the first two rounds of combat so nothing he says I can find actually elucidates what I want Hence me keep asking. If you can't answer this that is fine I was just curious for the reasons I already gave but quoting or pointing to quotes of the text I already don't find enlightening is just pointing me at the dark still Nat. P.S. not trying to be awkward I'm just crap a builds so its probably quite obvious to you I just need it spelled out |
|
| Author: | Opustus [ Sun, Feb 22 2015, 23:40 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Build: WM/Ftr/Rogue; All non-ECL Races; Devcrit Soup Bas |
Yep, I definitely do not understand your question then, sorry. |
|
| Author: | nataliawinters [ Sun, Feb 22 2015, 23:43 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Build: WM/Ftr/Rogue; All non-ECL Races; Devcrit Soup Bas |
Opustus wrote: Yep, I definitely do not understand your question then, sorry. I'll try one more time because its bugging me now lol If the Dev crit build is so crap it gets destroyed or "eaten for breakfast" by the Epic dodge build, what does the dev crit build have to recommend it that the epic dodge build does not provide. Because presumably the epic dodge build can also destroy whatever the dev crit build destroys in pvm. |
|
| Author: | Opustus [ Sun, Feb 22 2015, 23:46 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Build: WM/Ftr/Rogue; All non-ECL Races; Devcrit Soup Bas |
What does it offer more? Damage. The fault in your thinking is that because the Dev Crit WM loses to the Epic Dodge WM in toe-to-toe combat, it is worse. |
|
| Author: | nataliawinters [ Sun, Feb 22 2015, 23:52 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Build: WM/Ftr/Rogue; All non-ECL Races; Devcrit Soup Bas |
Opustus wrote: What does it offer more? Damage. The fault in your thinking is that because the Dev Crit WM loses to the Epic Dodge WM in toe-to-toe combat, it is worse. That doesn't answer the question If the dev crit build gets "eaten" by the epic dodge build it clearly is worst thats not a "fault in my thinking thats just obvious lol It can't be as glib as simply saying "damage" as clearly the epic dodge has more damage potential coupled with nullifying the damage of the dev crit build. So what if any reason would there be for choosing the dev crit build over the epic dodge build? |
|
| Author: | 555444333 [ Sun, Feb 22 2015, 23:56 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Build: WM/Ftr/Rogue; All non-ECL Races; Devcrit Soup Bas |
Dev Critters have good output and will win faster than Epic Dodgers EXCEPT vs Epic Dodgers. Epic Dodgers are Turtles, Dev Critters are hares, that 99% of the time will win, played right. |
|
| Author: | Opustus [ Mon, Feb 23 2015, 0:35 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Build: WM/Ftr/Rogue; All non-ECL Races; Devcrit Soup Bas |
If you look at the numbers (get it, numbers?), you can see that the Dev Crit version is worse in every respect other than AB and damage output. So those are the two things it is better at. Everything else, AC, skills, whatever, it is worse at. Why is it so hard to understand that it doesn't make the Dev Crit WM worse by default; there are different circumstances where they show what they're worth. |
|
| Author: | nataliawinters [ Mon, Feb 23 2015, 5:05 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Build: WM/Ftr/Rogue; All non-ECL Races; Devcrit Soup Bas |
555444333 wrote: Dev Critters have good output and will win faster than Epic Dodgers EXCEPT vs Epic Dodgers. Epic Dodgers are Turtles, Dev Critters are hares, that 99% of the time will win, played right. Excellent answer and just what I was looking for thank you. Opustus wrote: If you look at the numbers (get it, numbers?), Don't pose riddles mate, either answer actually the question in a manner similar to 555444333 (i.e. clearly) or don't reply, certainly don't start being snide because frankly we have enough players posting crap on these forums in a supercilious manner and I want to believe that you are not really one of those. Opustus wrote: Why is it so hard to understand that it doesn't make the Dev Crit WM worse by default Why was it so hard for you to give a succinct answer like 555444333 was able to do in two lines, and instead choose to be an arse (see my comment above) about it, really if you can't converse like a civilized adult best to stay away from the "postreply" button imo |
|
| Author: | bobofwestoregonusa [ Mon, Feb 23 2015, 5:12 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Build: WM/Ftr/Rogue; All non-ECL Races; Devcrit Soup Bas |
Dev crit is only good if your opponent is an NPC, or doesn't know how to gear. Otherwise it's totally useless. If you want to 1-fish just get an on-hit stun weapon and save yourself two feats that can be used for epic saves and skill focuses. Those are actually useful. |
|
| Author: | Opustus [ Mon, Feb 23 2015, 7:58 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Build: WM/Ftr/Rogue; All non-ECL Races; Devcrit Soup Bas |
Sorry, Natalia, that wasn't my intention at all, although I have to confess I got my knickers in a twist trying to explain this to you. We simply don't speak the same language and that's fine. |
|
| Author: | Liz [ Sat, Jun 20 2015, 17:25 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Build: WM/Ftr/Rogue; All non-ECL Races; Devcrit Soup Bas |
Here's the full extent of my ability to be useful in a build thread: Spring Atk requires base atk +4, you can't take it at lvl 3 as written. |
|
| Page 1 of 1 | All times are UTC |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|