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wolfurt wrote:

Solvaras wrote:

I think that's a hold over from when certain shifter forms had bonus dodge ac depending on the form. I'm pretty sure that with the shifter overhaul(s) that dodge ac has been removed. From what I've seen that bonus ac has been replaced with the scaling shifter level ac.

Nope, Dodge AC is definitely there.

By this do you mean that dodge AC is in the new scaling AC shifter's get? Or do, for example, spectres still get the +15 dodge that they do in the vanilla shift?

So far, playing around with the shapes, I haven't noticed anything terribly different from what the scaling shifter AC would explain, though some don't seem to match up right. It's hard to figure out what AC is happening though, because it's not detailed out on the character sheet (some forms lose AC for being larger, right?). The wording in the post seems to suggest it was written after the change that created the scaling shifter level AC though.

If this is info that is not wanted posted on the forums, could maybe someone PM me? Finding out in game is sorta difficult when the mechanic is hidden, though I am working on it.

The forms no longer get the extra dodge ac from vanilla. (for example the dire tiger would get 8 dodge ac on top of anything that would merge. This was mainly because nothing other than armor merged with the dire tiger form in vanilla) Gear from all slots merge now, so any dodge ac would stack from your boots. If you're getting more ac than your shifter levels + dex + any dodge bonuses then it's bugged and should be reported to a dm.

I'd like to make a barbarian, likely STR-based with some CON for rages. I'm thinking of going 30 barbarian to make most use out of the rages. Is this worth doing, in terms of combat?

DireCorbie wrote:

I'd like to make a barbarian, likely STR-based with some CON for rages. I'm thinking of going 30 barbarian to make most use out of the rages. Is this worth doing, in terms of combat?

The rages are really awesome but I would suggest going the route of 26 barb/2 Rogue/ 2 Fighter. That will free up your build so you wont need to worry about getting heavy armor, etc while the 2 rogue lets you tumble and umd dump + evasion.

I actually have a build buried somewhere that basically goes the route of Str/Con focused but picks up all the Epic DR, Epic weapon focus, and the rages. So you end with a 700 HP monsters with 25/- DR (With items) and a fear aura. You forgo Dev crit, but thankfully Dev isn't an absolute must like it use to be back in the day.

Rage stops scaling at about 24, save for the HP bonuses. There are a few barbarian builds that work. Weapon Masters are fun (Barb21/Fighter2/WM7), Epic Dodgers sort of dominate (Barb16/Rogue13/Ranger1), and they're great fun as super tank builds (Barb24/KC5/Bard1) which stack CON as far as they can get it and rage into 1200 hp with mighty rage up.

Which ever one of those interests you, feel free to ask about it and I'll give you a write up.

Disclaimer: Two of those builds are played by Frugdar. I helped him make the KC build, the WM is all his.

A little search netted me this:

MoshingChris wrote:

It also gives you a +1 to your Dev Crit DC.

I'm also curious at the 5th fighter level, it gains you nothing.

24 Barb 4 Fighter 2 Rogue is the build.

If Human
1 - 20 Barb:
Pre-epic Feats: Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical, Knockdown, Improved Knockdown, Blindfight

Epic:
Fighter 21: Epic Weapon Focus, Great Strength 1
Fighter 22: Overwhelming Critical
Fighter 23:
Fighter 24: Weapon Spec, Epic Weapon Spec
Barbarian 25:
Barbarian 26
Barbarian 27: Thundering Rage
Rogue 28:
Rogue 29:
Barbarian 30: Terrifying Rage, Armor Skin/Devastating Critical

To be honest having made this build previously with an x3 guy I've never found Devastating to be necessary since you put out so much damage on a Critical.

which takes 24 barbarian levels. But how does it compare with the WM build?

The WM one would be superior as far as damage output. Your rages would be a bit better with the 24 barby. If you can manage to get Thundering Rage with that wm build, it'd hurt somethin' awful.

Is that 3 levels of barb rage bonus worth the tradeoff I wonder. Gets tumble too

Not really, imo. If you can manage to get Thundering into that wm build, that'd just be sexy time, all the time.

The wm version doesnt have a tumble dump or umd. So you're already 6 ac behind the mosh standard build, possibly 8 because the wm build is strapped for feats and I'm not sure you'll have room in epic for armor skin. (Just checked, you can get armor skin and epic prowess at the cost of dev crit)

Eh, I thought Thundering used to do dmg on crit, but now it's just standard dmg. My bad. But still. You would definitely sacrifice AC with the wm build, but you'd deal out a pretty incredible amount of damage.

I personally would play that epic dodge barbarian. But I don't think that's what Corbie's lookin' for. Really, either way is a viable option as far as the two we've been discussing. I guess it depends on what you want. Damage or Defense?

It might be standard damage, but it stacks with flame weapon, which is more damage on top of more damage. A thundering/terrifying barbarian is one of the best disablers on the server, excluding status mages. Knockdown for a discipline check, fort check for stun, will check for terrifying. You're hitting almost every save, every attack for 5 attacks before haste. Eventually a 1 will pop up and then it's game over for whatever you're fighting.

If this is the WM build everyone's mentioning, then it does get thundering rage, just not terrifying. If that's not the build, well... I'd like to see the build!

I've never been a fan of WM outside of heavy fighter builds. The class is too feat hungry and you end up diverting a lot of your attribute points away from your key stats. That is just my opinion though.

Edit: I haven't built a WM Barb but I am going to say it is impossible to get Fear Aura, Dev and WM class. It is too attribute hungry.

You've never met Frugdar... or his brother from another mother.... the orc, Kreignar the Warmonger. Sure it's possible, not that hard really.

That Guy wrote:

You've never met Frugdar... or his brother from another mother.... the orc, Kreignar the Warmonger. Sure it's possible, not that hard really.

Ahh. Yep. I was under the impression that Terrifying rage required the 21+ con. I am still stuck in my DR Barb's mindset. My bad.

It's not impossible, but it sure aint pretty Maverick. 16 barb/7 wm/7 fighter *could* but that would be all it had. And the first time you run up against an undead/construct/elemental/palemaster/cory you're just a fighter with 26 strength.

Solvaras wrote:

It's not impossible, but it sure aint pretty Maverick. 16 barb/7 wm/7 fighter *could* but that would be all it had. And the first time you run up against an undead/construct/elemental/palemaster/cory you're just a fighter with 26 strength.

And no tumble AC =(

Ahh... gotcha, no big. Yeah terrifying rage is intimidate 25... now, a dexer won't get Thundering Rage, since they need 25 STR, but... a STR build could be a Thundering, Terrifying, Devastating Critical Weaponmaster.

I'd say you're still better than a vanilla fighter against undead shape. Rages can net you extra attacks, or AC (not needed against those shapes), and extra damage to cut their DR. Use a hammer or mace and you still can take 'em.

Would you even consider Thundering rage really worth it? I feel like if the build was tight enough feat wise I would consider armor skin or Epic weapon focus over it. You get 1d8 sonic (which sonic damage is always awesome) and a DC 20 stun. The stun you are basically 'hoping' they aren't mind blanked and they roll a 1.

That Guy wrote:

a STR build could be a Thundering, Terrifying, Devastating Critical Weaponmaster.

They could, but you run out of feats. Weapon master wants 6 feats, dev crit wants 5 more, then barbarian wants 2 more. Epic weapon focus is the only feat that is negotiable in that build other than blind fight, and you dont want to be a melee build without blind fight. You have no tumble dump, no armor skin. It's the dictionary definition of a glass cannon.

That Guy wrote:

Rages can net you extra attacks, or AC (not needed against those shapes)

With ac that low, you would have to use the defensive rage because you're right in the sweet spot where a proper built melee shifter is going to hit you on every attack.

To answer Corbie's initial question, the Mosh build is the all rounder build, and in my opinion the best strength barb build since it doesnt sacrifice defense for an amazing offense.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Would you even consider Thundering rage really worth it? I feel like if the build was tight enough feat wise I would consider armor skin or Epic weapon focus over it. You get 1d8 sonic (which sonic damage is always awesome) and a DC 20 stun. The stun you are basically 'hoping' they aren't mind blanked and they roll a 1.

Yep, it's worth it. Not only is it adding a rarely resisted element to your weapon, but it's stacking with flame weapon. If a critter can be critted, it's going to feel the pain with a x3 weapon like a warhammer or battle axe. That's why Mosh didnt go with dev crit on that build since you're putting so much damage down range already. Plus, if it couldnt be critted, you're still got the extra damage you wouldnt have otherwise.

Yeah I would like to have some AC to speak of, but I'd also rather not be DEX-based. So I guess I'll leave WM alone for now.

You shoulder consider doing Bob's Barb24/KC5/Bard1 or Barb24/Rogue2/Fighter4 or Barb26/Rogue2/Fighter2. The Barb24/Rogue2/Fighter4 is a pretty standard all around Barb build imo. The reason to go either bobs or the barb26 is to be a monster hp tank, or semi monster hp DR tank respectfully.

KC would not be fitting for the character, sadly, but I'd rather not lean too far one way anyway. A well-rounded build looks like my best option, in terms of both character and build quality.

Quote:

Barb26/Rogue2/Fighter2.

How would this build look?

Solvaras wrote:

The forms no longer get the extra dodge ac from vanilla. (for example the dire tiger would get 8 dodge ac on top of anything that would merge. This was mainly because nothing other than armor merged with the dire tiger form in vanilla) Gear from all slots merge now, so any dodge ac would stack from your boots. If you're getting more ac than your shifter levels + dex + any dodge bonuses then it's bugged and should be reported to a dm.

That is not how I have been led to understand how the merging works. All the gear merges here, with the overhaul the class got, but all your gear perks all apply to the same skin item when they merge, causing you to lose all but the biggest bonus of any particular type, and causing all bonus AC become deflection (including dodge). The dodge bonus from my boots is certainly not getting tacked on top of anything.

The AC algorithm as I understand it should be: 10 + shifter level AC + dex bonus + tumble AC + 'other' (armor skin, etc) + highest gear AC bonus (if this is higher then the deflection bonus shifter levels grant) + size modifier?.

Which is why I'm asking. Like I said, I'm playing around with the forms to see what works and what doesn't, doing the trial and error thing. Some things don't seem to add up right, but that would be explained if there were ghost AC being added that I cannot see, as the class modifications seems to suggest. It's also expensive and time consuming to try to test everything out In Game, and I couldn't even tell if things are acting as expected without any hard info to compare it against.

Ugh, part of what I was seeing was from not having a weapon in hand when shifting. I do consistently forget about that. There does still seem to be some hidden mechanics I can't see happening, so I think my original question still stands. For example, my harpy shape is getting 3 AC I can't figure, and the spectre is getting 2 less then it should. Both regardless of gear (I don't have anything that beats the shifter level AC).

DireCorbie wrote:

KC would not be fitting for the character, sadly, but I'd rather not lean too far one way anyway. A well-rounded build looks like my best option, in terms of both character and build quality.

Quote:

Barb26/Rogue2/Fighter2.

How would this build look?

I use to have the build all written up but alas over the years stuff disappears. Ill give you the gist and let you figure out the rest. If you really need help I can go ahead and write it all up again for you but that might take a while.

Ability wise you need to get 21 Con before epic. Earth Genasi works best for this since you can get the +2 con/str bonus. Make sure you intelligence is 10 so your skill points are high enough to get Disc/Tumble/UMD/Intimidate (Short change UMD if you need to). Biggest thing you got to remember is 21 Con is priority preepic, and the rest of your attribute points go into str.
If you go half orc/dwarf or a subrace that just gives the standard +2 to con or str you can end with 21 con 22 Str.

You take 1 fighter preepic to get Heavy armor then go all barb till epic. You can go one rogue preepic to make it easier but you lose out on 1 ab in the long run, which since your strength isn't going to be 26 base you might want to deal with less than stellar preepic AC..

Epic feat wise you get 4 standard, 1 from epic barb, and 1 from taking the second fighter level epic. Get Epic weapon focus using that second fighter level. The rest of the feats includes Epic DR 1,2,3, armorskin, and terrifying rage. Take rogue on off feat levels in epic and tumble/umd dump as appropriate.

With toughness preepic you will have 704 hp with max con, 15/- DR (DR items can potentially boost this to 25/-, or at least 20/-). Using a sword/board you will end with solid tumble enhanced AC that any WM or other mele build can obtain. Your AB will be awesome even with subpar strength. In rage you are looking at 25 BAB + 3 (Weapon focus + Epic weapon focus) + 5 (Weapon enchantment) + 11-12 (Str bonus) + 6 AB (Rage ab) + 2 (Bless/aid) = 52/53 AB. On top of that you will have fear aura! Boom.

Side note: Because this is a Hp/DR heavy build you could PvE wise and even PvP somewhat go two hander and be deadly. I still advise sword/board though.

That's really close to one I've been working on. If you drop 2 barb levels and make it 24/4/2 barb/fighter/rogue you can fit in mighty rage as well as evening off your con for more tankiness.

1-20 barb
21-24 fighter
25-27 barb
28-29 rogue
30 barb

Yeah the reason I go 26 Barb is for the extra 1 DR. I do not think Mighty Rage is worth it over the standard rage at that level, imo. Mighty rage is badass for PvE/Tanking but the raw amount of AB/Damage/Stat bonuses etc you get from the standard rage just out shines it. While the extra 240 or 260 temp hp is nice you are already looking at 700+ hp, which is more than enough to pop a heal at 100-200 hp.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Yeah the reason I go 26 Barb is for the extra 1 DR. I do not think Mighty Rage is worth it over the standard rage at that level, imo. Mighty rage is badass for PvE/Tanking but the raw amount of AB/Damage/Stat bonuses etc you get from the standard rage just out shines it. While the extra 240 or 260 temp hp is nice you are already looking at 700+ hp, which is more than enough to pop a heal at 100-200 hp.

It was my understanding that Mighty Rage adds its bonuses atop the standard rage bonuses. e.g. a 30th level barbarian using standard rage gains +6 AB, +5 damage, +3 Will/Fort, +60 HP, and -2 AC, and then Mighty Rage adds another +4 all saves, +5 vampiric regen, and +300 HP. It melds very well with Unyielding rage if you wish to not die under any circumstances (hyperbole), AND the feat gives you another 3 rages per day. I've always been of the impression that if you can get it, there are precious few reasons not to take it.

Yeah, mighty adds to what your rages already do. The point of it is since your vampiric regen is so high, while you rage, you're not cutting into your normal hitpoints. 1dr isnt worth the hitpoints and saves gained by mighty rage.

That is definitely something that needs to be cleared up on the class info. I know the default nwn might rage is a completely separate rage, etc. Cool though. In that case I would definitely shift those 2 barb to 2 fighter and pick up mighty rage.

Any suggestions on a Bane of Enemies build?

I was originally trying to go Dex based, with SD levels... But epic dodge and bane of enemies can't happen on the same build. That sort of broke what I was trying to do, so the idea is back to concept.

The current build is Ranger21/MS5/Fighter2. Halfling, sling focused dev critter... which sounds really strange but the math works out fairly well. Ends up with 26 Str, 18 Dex, AC in the 50's, and AB in the high 40's (melee and missile). But it's skill and feat starved, and not all that pretty to build. Dev crit and pre-reqs take almost everything.

I'm really not absolutely tied to bane of enemies, it just seemed fitting. I don't have much experience with BoE or Dev Crit. How would you build a halfling slinger? Some combination of Ranger, MS, Rogue, and/or SD should be there for the concept. Is there maybe a PRC that could be emulated here?

Rogue 30. Dex based. If you're not that confident of corner sneaking Rogue 24/SD 6. As for prc's races of faerun has the warsling sniper, but rogue pretty much covers what the class gives you mechanics wise.

As for the ranger build, 25 ranger/5 master scout works as a dex base. It will give you a beefy companion as well as giving uncanny dodge and some toys to play with.

Any basic Rogue build can take down Goliath with the sling, I'm sure. Ranger isn't simply being utilized to its maximum if built ranged. If anything, I'd have the sling only as plan B. My only worry is that a rebuild from a Ranger into Rogue may be too steep.

I have been thinking about doing a Cleric/Fighter now. I want her to mainly heal and buff a bit with her casting and focus more on the melee side. First question is, what way can I determine how many fighter levels I should take pre-epic to get 4 attacks per round and also, if I only intend on using it for healing and buffing, how much wisdom should I go for? Just a bit lost

Kaczpis wrote:

I have been thinking about doing a Cleric/Fighter now. I want her to mainly heal and buff a bit with her casting and focus more on the melee side. First question is, what way can I determine how many fighter levels I should take pre-epic to get 4 attacks per round and also, if I only intend on using it for healing and buffing, how much wisdom should I go for? Just a bit lost

4 Fighter pre epic will get you the full 4 attacks per turn, as long as the rest of the 16 levels are 3/4 AB progression classes (Aka Cleric). I suppose Wisdom wise it depends on how many levels you plan on getting? You want epic spells or not? 20 base wisdom is required for wisdom, and 19 to cast level 9 spells.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Kaczpis wrote:

I have been thinking about doing a Cleric/Fighter now. I want her to mainly heal and buff a bit with her casting and focus more on the melee side. First question is, what way can I determine how many fighter levels I should take pre-epic to get 4 attacks per round and also, if I only intend on using it for healing and buffing, how much wisdom should I go for? Just a bit lost

4 Fighter pre epic will get you the full 4 attacks per turn, as long as the rest of the 16 levels are 3/4 AB progression classes (Aka Cleric). I suppose Wisdom wise it depends on how many levels you plan on getting? You want epic spells or not? 20 base wisdom is required for wisdom, and 19 to cast level 9 spells.

I've been kicking around a cleric build too... Doesn't Divine Power make it fairly pointless to take those 4 pre-epic fighter levels?

Amia removed Divine powers ability to grant that 4th attack.

Actually Bioware did... looooong time ago.

No they didn't, unless the wiki is wrong. It's also listed in our spell changes.

bidocks wrote:

Actually Bioware did... looooong time ago.

Not according to the wiki, they just fixed them to follow at the standard -5 ab progression.

Heh... well, ok then. Though I guess every server I've played on did the same as Amia then..... hmm, must be.

Either way, I'm glad Amia fixed that. I missed the notes that Amia divine power doesn't get the 4th attack, and that patch 1.69 fixed the full AB bug. So I was looking at that spell aghast at how brokenly overpowering it was. Does it still adjust to character level (rather then caster level) here?

Trying to decide now if Cleric 22/23 is worth going for, or if that fourth attack is worth sacrificing a few epic spells for. Build is Cleric Rogue 22/8 right now, which works but lacks any bonus epic stuff or rogue specialty feats. Cleric 23 would get a bonus feat, but honestly it doesn't even look like clerics really need epic spells. Thinking maybe throwing 4 DC levels in there pre-epic might work better? with a split more like C21/R5/DC4.

Casvenx wrote:

Either way, I'm glad Amia fixed that. I missed the notes that Amia divine power doesn't get the 4th attack, and that patch 1.69 fixed the full AB bug. So I was looking at that spell aghast at how brokenly overpowering it was. Does it still adjust to character level (rather then caster level) here?

Trying to decide now if Cleric 22/23 is worth going for, or if that fourth attack is worth sacrificing a few epic spells for. Build is Cleric Rogue 22/8 right now, which works but lacks any bonus epic stuff or rogue specialty feats. Cleric 23 would get a bonus feat, but honestly it doesn't even look like clerics really need epic spells. Thinking maybe throwing 4 DC levels in there pre-epic might work better? with a split more like C21/R5/DC4.

Usually a battle cleric that ends up as Cleric 23 / Fighter 5-6 / Rogue 1-2 Taking at least 4 of the Fighter pre-epic for Maximum AB, Weapon Specialization is nice, and the Tumble / UMD from rogue is nice. Personally 23 C / 6 F / 1 R is my preference, because you get more feats that way (And Epic Weapon Spec is a bonus feat ~ But if you like Evasion, go for the 2 Rogue--But when your reflex save is so low anyways, I wouldn't say it's worth it!)

The general rule I go with for if the three attacks per turn is worth it vs the four is how good your AB will be and it usually boils down to this. In PvE four attacks per turn makes a huge difference, but in PvP the fourth attack is pretty much useless against all but no AC mages or two handers.

Good points, but the rogue is integral to the concept, rather then just for a tumble dump. I try to avoid those when possible. Before thinking of that 4th attack, I was even considering Cleric/Rogue/SD instead. Those 4 extra levels of rogue are worth like... 50? skill points though (vs cleric or fighter levels). Plus the 2d6 more in sneak attacks. Reflex should be in the 30's, so not entirely useless either. That 6 extra damage will be missed... But I'm still working on that slinger build so damage is going to be somewhat poor anyways. Hoping the divine might and sneak damage make up for it.

Man, every time I build a caster it just reminds me of how weak the other classes are respectively.

Does anyone have the breakdown of the Paladin/DC/Wm great smiter? Also, does it get any mileage out of divine might or is that another build entirely?

Thanks!

I don't have the complete breakdown on hand but it is one of those too good to be true builds, imo. You are looking at 6 Feats alone out of you preepic pool of 7 (8 if you are human) just for WM. Then you need 2 more feats to access KC plus you must take Extra smiting, or what is the point. That is 9 feats that are must, and you still haven't taken your Impro Crit. If you do take your impro crit, which you should, you have 1 or 2 feats left (Depending on if you are human or not). 1-2 feats is not enough to get epic weapon focus as well as enough epic smiting feats, or if you forgo ewf and go 2 epic smite feats you are only getting 36 extra damage for smiting. It is a mess.

If you want to go Pally/KC/WM forget the idea you are going a smiter and instead build a standard Cha/Str pally (Build layout would be 18 Pally/ 5 KC/ 7 WM). Make sure you have enough wisom/dex/int to meet the requirements to use all pally spells as well as get all the feats for WM. Then get your Cha to 18 for a solid 10 round Divine might/shield combo. The rest of your points go into str for the ab/damage. It is still a verrry tight build but it is much more realistic.

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