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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 27 2016, 10:20 AM 



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Now I've heard pretty often "Elves are virtually never evil"... I'm a bit confused, since there are at least... five ways an Elf can be evil.

1. I know these were removed, but they are still part of the Amian Lore. Shadow Elves.

2. Drow. Now, these are a bit different, one might say, but they used to be "normal elves" until they got chased to the UD.

3. Tanar'ri. Sun Elves bred willingly with Tanar'ri, and you are telling me they can't be evil?

4. Tiefling. Elves that bred with fiends... 'Nuff saif. The DM team even suggested these after some failed tanar'ri requests.

5. Selgoron. While he is a Sun Elf, which are more proud of theor heritage, it isn't actually such a strange thing for an Elf. And he's evil, AFAIK.

So why are evil Elves, or Evil dragonkin Elves so unlikely? There are enough examples. I don't understand why this is said so often, when "Always Good" Elves WILLINGLY bred with demons.


 
      
Richard_Edmund
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 27 2016, 11:50 AM 

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To put it simply, elves can be evil. Heck, almost any race can be evil. Dwarves, gnomes, halflings and especially elves. Ultimately it comes down to what you want to play, and if your back story would be a sensible reason for your character to commit evil acts or dedicate to an evil cause. Not every elf in Faerun lives in Evermeet and prances naked in the forests, some are bloodthirsty bandits, thieves, assassins.

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serbiris
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 27 2016, 11:51 AM 

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Longer answer: It's mostly propaganda and people not reading the rules correctly. Core rulebooks on elves are not readily contradicted by the FR lore held to on Amia; Most elven subraces are "Usually Chaotic Good" (sauce: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm). That only really suggests an inherent socio-cultural or possibly genetic predisposition (though a reasonably strong one) leaving plenty of room for other options. All it really states is that there are more CG elves than any other single alignment. Conventionally we tend to also make use of the one-step rule to allow some flexibility, and it's reasonable to say that "Most" elves are within this extended field. It's worth noting that Wood Elves are "Usually Neutral" and that Neutral is indeed just one step from Evil, but we're not talking about just that subrace so let's leave them for a bit. The point is, "virtually never" is somewhere between wishful thinking and absolutely false. You might say that evil elves are the least common (assuming you believe them when they say drow don't count anymore) of all the alignments and you'd be right.

I do have to say that this has nothing to do with the number of ways elves can be evil. For two reasons really - firstly that none of those possibilities suggest anything in the way of numbers - it could be one elf in each category, and "virtually never evil" would still be true (in fact, 5 is only about one elf!). Secondly, the events you refer to in the first few points all happened in the distant past. The drow were cast out and un-elfified, the shadow elves joined them (and then disappeared). The Fey'ri (I think that's the word you were looking for when you wrote Tanar'ri) was indeed a thing that happened and IIRC bad things happened to the house that did it. What's important about this is that since then, elven culture has ejected these elements strenuously - the fey'ri incident was considered a big old "Must not do!" for elves, and itself was the desperate act of only a small portion of the population. The drow too were outright ejected from elfdom for the crap they did - a much larger population (a whole subrace even) but they were de-elfed. It's like eugenics: elves select for alignment, tossing out the evil and keeping in the good. The remaining elves are far less likely to adopt those forsworn ways having been taught from childhood about how bad it was, and I dunno having fewer Evil Genes or whatever. Elfkind has evolved, and can no longer be considered the same as how they were when those historical examples occurred. You might argue that those elves still existed and thus are proof of the prevalence of evil among elfkind, and that would be true, but it still wouldn't be reflective of the contemporary state of elfkind.

I'll go further with your examples. Tieflings - only require one elf millenia ago to have bred with a fiend, possibly not on purpose as y'know things happen. Not necessarily an evil act. And not even that - because the offspring of a half-elf/elf union produces an elf (or at least elf enough to produce near-to-full elves), and any one of the half-elf's ancestors could have dropped that T-gene down the pipe-hole. The resultant tiefer-elf would be so much of an outlier that they probably wouldn't even be considered an elf by other elves. We're talking about statistical anomalies here. And finally, Selgoron - is an individual (and a remarkable one, since people are apparently still boggled by his existence years down the line), and not significantly representative of the elven demographic. Geez, apparently we're past the days when people were mad about my evil elf PC. I am disappoint.

In conclusion - propaganda. There will be those who want to believe that Goodness is more inherent to elves than it really is, but the rules say "Usually" not "Always" (and even then, designers say "always is only "almost always"). The thing is that in character, elves truly believe this, and a lot of people get their lore knowledge through this in character lens of bias. Whatever the reason, the fact is that PCs are inherently outsiders and outliers - not immune to the statistical probabilities of their race, but not bound by them either. And social conditioning can only go so far.

Point is, don't let anyone invalidate your character concept. Some might complain about how statistically, evil elf PCs crop up in disturbing numbers compared to non-evil elves, but that's really the designers' faults for making elves and evil so sexy together.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 27 2016, 14:36 PM 

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Personally, whenever I've heard "elves are rarely evil" I always understood it to come with the caveat "elves living among other elves are almost never evil." It's not that they can't be, it's that, for all those historical examples, any elven community is quick to prune or reeducate any individual who seems to be going that way. You've got three members of the Elven Pantheon (Shevarash, Fenmarel, and Erevan) who allow Chaotic Evil clergy. Coincidentally, those are the three members of the Seldarine that outcasts and Elves who actually don't get along that well with other elves are most likely to worship.

I could be wrong. I tend to zone out whenever I see any request specifically dealing with elf stuff, as I feel it's one of those topics we overly fetishize about regarding lore(partially the fault of the source material as it constantly tries to make an otherwise interesting race into a legion of Mary Sues). But what I thought most of the time was the problem was not that you couldn't have an Evil elf, but rather people trying to say their evil elf came from/was a part of a community that would have beaten them and driven them out of the community at the first chance they got. While I recall a DM or two to saying they dislike Evil elves, I also recall them saying they are perfectly legal and do not in themselves require any special clearance or approval.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 27 2016, 15:30 PM 



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To answer what was said above, stuff happened in the distant past, but does that really mean they learned anything? Why is a Human apparently more tempted by power than an Elf?

Evil Aasimar are just as frowned upon, but good Tieflings? Where is the difference? And not all elves live in an elf-only place, right?

Yes, I meant Fey'ri, sorry. And, sorry to pull RL into this again, but even here we have examples of a society that promotes "good", and "good-aligned systems", but we still have people who are "evil". Reichsbürgerbewegung in Germany? Communists in the Third Reich? They existed even though people "Usually" agreed with the current sytem.
Even the best way of trying tofilter out evil wouldn't really work, unless things like "detect evil" are spammed on every person.

Also, outcasts, or de-elfed as you called them, they still are elves by race, and are evil.

Actually, Selgoron isn't really THAT far off the Sun Elven way to think, at least if I understand the character correctly. (I've only been here for two years? I don't know your elf...) I mean, Sun Elves are so proud that they don't even really like other Elves in some cases. So attacking non-elves or the evil outliers isn't really that unlikely for a Sun Elf. And the "Elf Masterrace" is there even for non-Sun Elves, it just is more extreme for them.

When one of four DMs just says no to a request, just because base race is Elf, I'm confused. Do elves just straight up not have the idea of wanting to gain power? Of, I don't know, Bloodlust? Are those things just things elves don't have?


 
      
Tarnus
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 27 2016, 15:42 PM 

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Keep down the passive aggressive attitude.

Yes, they did.

Your second paragraph does not make any sense to me. And no, elves do in fact not only live in elf only places but will at least generally (provided they aren't orphaned) grow up in elven communities/families. These things are not mutually exclusionary.

I won't even get started with that one. Please don't do that. Real life gets usually a lot more complicated then good and evil. FR does indeed have subjective good and evil, RL usually doesn't do you the favor to make it that easy.

Selgoron IS far off the way the general sun elf will think. Thinking you are better then someone and advocating their general murder is a bizarrely large difference. Haughty and arrogant does not automatically make you evil, even if it does make you kind of a prick. Thinking you are better then someone and going to MURDER them is really not the same thing. So it IS still very extreme.

Yes, these are things that are very unlikely things to have for elves and for requests, especially for special character requests, we put to higher standards then regular pcs. Serbiris and DI gave you a pretty nice explanation of some of these aspects, I recommend you to reread them. (And very out of alignment receive the same scrutiny then out of alignment aasimar, it just happens less often. So I am not sure where you are pulling that from.)

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 27 2016, 16:26 PM 

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Elves are overwhelmingly good.

Amia elves are hugely disproportionately evil/chromatic dragon because you don't need dm oversight to make an evil elf.

The problem is more pronounced as most recent elf PC plots have involved evil elves either murdering everyone or EDIT; SECRET SHIT BUT YOU MIGHT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.

Doesn't change the fact that Amia island is a total standout in elfhood and is likely due for some elf ethics commission from evermeet coming out to do an inspection to find out why evermeet is guarding such an evil collective (i'm literally serious).

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Last edited by Commie on Sun, Nov 27 2016, 17:22 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 27 2016, 17:21 PM 

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serbiris wrote:
I'll go further with your examples. Tieflings - only require one elf millenia ago to have bred with a fiend, possibly not on purpose as y'know things happen.


I don't believe this is true, an individual that had an ancestor that just summoned a shitload of demons/angels or spent a lot of time on the outer-planes could eventually have a descendant that was planetouched in some way related to their activity. Spend a lot of time on the plane of earth and your great great great granddaughter might be an earth planetouched.

As far as I know, planetouched does not require extraplanar coupling.

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Kudark
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 27 2016, 17:47 PM 

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Commie wrote:
As far as I know, planetouched does not require extraplanar coupling.


I don't believe this is true.
How does that happen? Osmosis, drinking the water, or eating the food, just being there?

In my opinion, I believe that in order to be planetouched, one must have a touch of the planar in their bloodline, thus requiring a coupling at some point in the distant past.

If I move to Africa and live there my whole life, my descendants would not be mulatto if there were no interracial couplings in my family.

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 27 2016, 17:55 PM 

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Well.. opinions aside... it can happen just by spending time on another plane.


 
      
serbiris
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 27 2016, 18:17 PM 

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Happy to respond to OP's reply when I have time, but for the direction the discussion has veered in: [citation needed]

No, seriously. It's not that I disbelieve or find it illogical, but I've heard this stated many times - lots of people have - but last time we asked for an actual source on this everyone kinda shrugged their sources. I'm interested, out of sheer academic curiosity. Or are we just setting a convention for Amia on this one?

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Lutra
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 27 2016, 18:44 PM 



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robbi320 wrote:
5. Selgoron.


For starter...please refrain from discussing a PC in a public OOC forum. If you have an observation to make on a specific PC then you can file it privately, but not here. Don't do this again.

As for the rest, what you wrote is not entirely correct but Serbiris' answer is rather good regarding "almost always" part. An elf would probably never deal with a demon in general, unless the House Dargaleth that you mentioned who followed the examples of the Vyashaan empire. Unfortunately they did not have nearly as much power as the House Vyashaan did and as such they had to become Fey'ri to achieve something similar. Elves do not go near chromatic dragon...let alone coupling with them because the chromatic dragon would eat them before asking questions to begin with. They are the most ancient enemies on Faerun

Yes, evil elf happens but they only turn evil when a Deus Ex Macchina occurs..aka...if a god or a powerful otherwordly entity comes down and tricks them into doing something evil. It is a rare occasion, but it happened with them more often than any other race on Faerun because of the general Chaotic Good attitude. Elves do not change as fast as humans or other races in terms of moral standards so it usually takes a lot (see the powerful otherworldly entity, gods) to change some of the and create those extreme cases you listed there.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 27 2016, 18:48 PM 

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Kudark wrote:
Commie wrote:
As far as I know, planetouched does not require extraplanar coupling.


I don't believe this is true.
How does that happen? Osmosis, drinking the water, or eating the food, just being there?

In my opinion, I believe that in order to be planetouched, one must have a touch of the planar in their bloodline, thus requiring a coupling at some point in the distant past.

If I move to Africa and live there my whole life, my descendants would not be mulatto if there were no interracial couplings in my family.


It is true in some cases.

A lot of planars do not need to have sex to impregnate another.

Celestials are the most famous for this who can accidentally make someone bear a child simply by falling in love with them.

P.S. Good tieflings are as much frowned about as evil aasimar, and just as regularly denied in special request context as the other.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 27 2016, 18:54 PM 

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Kudark wrote:
Commie wrote:
As far as I know, planetouched does not require extraplanar coupling.


I don't believe this is true.
How does that happen? Osmosis, drinking the water, or eating the food, just being there?

In my opinion, I believe that in order to be planetouched, one must have a touch of the planar in their bloodline, thus requiring a coupling at some point in the distant past.

If I move to Africa and live there my whole life, my descendants would not be mulatto if there were no interracial couplings in my family.


Literally magic. It happens because of literal magic. It's not real.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 27 2016, 18:58 PM 

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One thing that could be done would be an inquisition. Elves from Evermeet arrive and want to know how the current Winya leadership has allowed so much ethical divergence, citing specific examples such as REDACTED and the treatment or handling of REDACTED.

Would be a good way to put the divergence into the rp limelight.

I mean seriously I don't see how what was done didn't at least get someone up high to raise a few eyebrows or question the leadership.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 27 2016, 19:19 PM 

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They did. They have.

Several evil elves have been declared non-elf. Several more are on their "last chance" because they swore to change.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 27 2016, 20:07 PM 

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Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:
They did. They have.

Several evil elves have been declared non-elf. Several more are on their "last chance" because they swore to change.


Wow. That's good news!

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SamTheGiantSlayer
 
PostPosted: Sun, Nov 27 2016, 20:42 PM 

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Yeah. They often become denounced or exiled, though typically after given a chance to 'change'. Amia just has a weird proportion of things that should be way more rare than they are here, Evil Elves included.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 28 2016, 7:06 AM 

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Kudark wrote:
Commie wrote:
As far as I know, planetouched does not require extraplanar coupling.


I don't believe this is true.
How does that happen? Osmosis, drinking the water, or eating the food, just being there?

In my opinion, I believe that in order to be planetouched, one must have a touch of the planar in their bloodline, thus requiring a coupling at some point in the distant past.

If I move to Africa and live there my whole life, my descendants would not be mulatto if there were no interracial couplings in my family.


Yes, but you living in africa isn't you living in a magical other-realm that touches your very spiritual being, no matter how many times you bless the rains. Simply put: Magic doesn't need to follow the rules of logic and reality in our world.

Ed: Other edge cases for planetouched include Dragons producing Genasi children - it can happen, because all Dragons have Elemental subtypes, and so their bloodlines can, in theory, breed Genasi over the course of generations.

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Kudark
 
PostPosted: Mon, Nov 28 2016, 8:09 AM 

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I stand corrected, thanks for clearing it up for me.

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Alaria-
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 01 2016, 2:44 AM 

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Also, it is noteworthy to know that elves are mostly patient creatures! If elves make mistakes, they will in all likeliness try rehabilitation first. Elves changing take time which often give the illusion that nobody is doing anything about the problems. The truth is that they are, in their own way.

Elves from elven families are generally raised around the Seldarine's values, which make most good by nature. An easy excuse for 'evil elves' can be that they were born in human cities and are basically humans with pointy ears, or that they have pursued the 'darker' side of the Seldarine (Shevarash). Emotions are important for elves so the darker side of them can make things pretty complicated.

There is also the field of 'elven superiority' that is most commonly found in Sun Elves. Some even believe themselves to be the true protectors of Corellon Larethian and elvenkind. Just arrogance that can sometimes be percieved as 'evil'. :)


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 01 2016, 3:20 AM 

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Alaria- wrote:
Also, it is noteworthy to know that elves are mostly patient creatures! If elves make mistakes, they will in all likeliness try rehabilitation first. Elves changing take time which often give the illusion that nobody is doing anything about the problems. The truth is that they are, in their own way.

Elves from elven families are generally raised around the Seldarine's values, which make most good by nature. An easy excuse for 'evil elves' can be that they were born in human cities and are basically humans with pointy ears, or that they have pursued the 'darker' side of the Seldarine (Shevarash). Emotions are important for elves so the darker side of them can make things pretty complicated.

There is also the field of 'elven superiority' that is most commonly found in Sun Elves. Some even believe themselves to be the true protectors of Corellon Larethian and elvenkind. Just arrogance that can sometimes be percieved as 'evil'. :)


Shevarash is CN, not really evil.

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thunderbrush
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 01 2016, 7:03 AM 



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This just seems to be one of those topics that will go no where. As a society, elves are not evil. That doesn't mean that one cannot be an individual, no matter how unlikely. I think instead of poking at the race, just focus on the backstory a bit. Maybe? While it's fair to mention that elves who display unsavory characteristics are being excommunicated from elven society (Winya), This doesn't make them mechanically less elven. The proposed character Commie is making, would most likely never even have a shot. Perhaps in his or her history, they were already cast out due to poor elvemenship (?) To caveat what was already said, exposure to the weave, chaos, order,negative and positive energies can incite changes in the physiology of characters, transforming them into outsiders. An example of this would be with the Warlock class. You cannot become a Warlock (Roll one) as an outsider, though over time they can become one.

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Alaria-
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 01 2016, 9:29 AM 

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Commie wrote:
Alaria- wrote:
Also, it is noteworthy to know that elves are mostly patient creatures! If elves make mistakes, they will in all likeliness try rehabilitation first. Elves changing take time which often give the illusion that nobody is doing anything about the problems. The truth is that they are, in their own way.

Elves from elven families are generally raised around the Seldarine's values, which make most good by nature. An easy excuse for 'evil elves' can be that they were born in human cities and are basically humans with pointy ears, or that they have pursued the 'darker' side of the Seldarine (Shevarash). Emotions are important for elves so the darker side of them can make things pretty complicated.

There is also the field of 'elven superiority' that is most commonly found in Sun Elves. Some even believe themselves to be the true protectors of Corellon Larethian and elvenkind. Just arrogance that can sometimes be percieved as 'evil'. :)


Shevarash is CN, not really evil.


He accepts evil followers. The emotion connected with the faith is hatred and focus on vengeance. They are dark emotions for elves, which in my opinion is a sinkhole that may very well give birth to evil elves. If I saw a Shevarashan that was evil I would not frown upon it at all.

The god itself doesn't really need to be evil at the end of the day for that to happen.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 01 2016, 10:14 AM 

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I suppose you're right.

Keep in mind, I find it really difficult to fit an actual three dimensional character into a 3x3 grid that requires a behavior audit by an actual committee to change. It gets even harder when you have a character that's in conflict with themselves for actions they took or were taken by their superiors or subordinates. I believe your alignment should be defined by your actions, not the other way around (as is often the case) where it's just picked at character creation. If you're lawful good, and the king you swore a holy oath to obey and act as his 'justice,' as well as always protect the innocent, orders you to execute a farmer based on flimsy or subjective evidence, what do you do? What happens to your alignment when you're forced into this situation? You lose lawful because you break your oath and disobey a lawful order or you lose good because you killed someone who was in all likelihood innocent and never proven to be guilty. Now you're in a situation where you have to decide if the king actually was giving you a bad order and is a tyrant or not before you learn if you're going to fall as a paladin. The alignment system is so broken the trick to being a functional LG character is to have friends that simply arn't beholden to your ethics, and make sure they don't give you details when they solve problems you can't know about, because somehow that's still LG.

And god forbid you want to play a lawful bard. Want to study music? Well fuck you pal if you want songs you're on the path of CHAOS. Only the mentally wild or uncommitted can inspire with song; discipline, tradition, origination, and order have NO PLACE in music and that's literally in the rules (and literally in nwn and literally in 3.0 and 3.5).

That's just me though. I utterly loathe alignments.

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Amarice-Elaraliel
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 01 2016, 12:49 PM 

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A few things to Shevarash.

1. He is not a full fledged elven god (greater or even lesser deity). He is a demigod. As thus his followers are a cult. This means he is by far not the most commonly followed elven "god".

2. He is CN, most of his followers still are CN. Yes they CAN be evil and accepted by him but he only really hates drow. He is not upperty or kill happy towards other creatures or supports it. (non evil creatures that is. Pretty sure he supports killing orcs and goblinoids and such. :P)

3. His followers operate and spend a lot of their lives in and around the Underdark (to hunt drow) and not on the surface, so they often or rather usually/often are not or no longer part of a normal elven community. They do not sulk around on the surface to hunt the odd drow leaving the Underdark, they hunt them IN the Underdark via raids or guard the entrances to the underdark.

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A Majestic Dwarf
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 01 2016, 20:06 PM 

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On the subject of Evil elves which I have not yet seen mentioned is the Eldreth Veluuthra the elven equivalent of the KKK, Even if that is a bit of a crude analogy. A Synopsis of these people is that they are a small (I think their Total Membership is only a few hundred) organization within Elven society who view Humans as Vermin, and who's eventual goal is the cleansing of the human race. Whilst small... they do have a few supporters well placed in elven society, which is where they get much of their funding.

It is quite easy to see where such goals can come from... as evil can beget evil. There was a period in Tethyr's history for example, ending in 1370, where there was a bounty placed upon Elf ears and they were persecuted, and whilst the older ones remembered times before this dark time... I can imagine younger elves being angry and disenfranchised.

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PostPosted: Fri, Dec 02 2016, 21:37 PM 



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@Commie: Yes, alignments are stupid but they are meant to be stupid. They are not reflecting RL moral standards. Good and evil in the FR universe is completely different compared to RL attitude and standards. There is an objective good and evil there with living gods while in RL philosophy argues if relativity and natural law should be the basis of moral decisions and where the international and national laws should be in relations to that.
It is part of the game that you play an unreasonable alignment and that is part of the challenge.

Yup, what Amarice says. Shevarashians are usually good/neutral but they turn evil because they spend almost 100% of their time in the Underdark. The Shevarashians on Amia were mostly loitering around Winya, which is also incorrect lorewise or that makes them not Shevarashians to begin with. It was pretty much the best excuse for evil elf character concepts.

Another pattern that I can see among people who make evil elves are the following:
    - They generally want to have an unconventional character and the reason why Amia has a significant amount of evil elves. For some reason people believe that a standard CG elf cannot be unconventional in its own ways. That is a perspective that I generally find wrong.
    - Or someone is OOCly fishing for attention and they blame it on the community for them being or becoming evil because of the lack of "guidance".
    - Or come they come up with the usual "I was raised by humans!" idea and make the elf in question significantly younger than an average adult elf, thus they can explain their behavior.

Sun elves. Of course there is a history there. Originally when the sun and the moon elven had to flee from Faerie to Faerun from a sinking sun elf kingdom known as Tintageer. Minutes after their arrival to Faerun, their ruler, Prince Durothil disappeared after a dragon attack. He was found a 100 years later and the elves, since their monarch disappeared, decided to settle with the wild elves (who arrived to Faerun before them) and adopted their Gerontocracy as their form of government. The Sun elves and the Durothils didn't like that, however, that small community grew over the centuries and it became Aryvandaar, and it became a sun elf monarchy under the House Vyashaan. Things were good and dandy until sun elves decided that they should guide every elf. A notion that other elves denied, even other sun elves. As a result Aryvandaar felt the need to expand by force and thus the Crown Wars began. We know how it ended.
In the meantime Evermeet was colonized after the Seldarine allowed them to do so by noble Houses from Evermeet. The Durothils were one of them and they didn't like that they are not ruling. Eventually the sun elves were able to make a coup there but the first councilor at the time was more busy reclaiming the remnants Aryvandaar rather than establishing a crown in Evermeet.
Later the Seldarine thought that there should be a monarch there and the high magic created the Moonblades to determine the identity of the new monarch, however, it was predetermined by the Seldarine that it will be a moon elf since they are tolerant with other elves and other races. That was approved by the coronal of Myth Drannor who was also a sun elf. Since then the sun elves are butthurt because they have conflicted feelings about the will of their gods and their own traditions. Sun elves are also perfectionists and they will never accept the fact that someone can do something better than they would do.

Aurora's examples are also great, although there is a bit more to that story. I would also add that the elves (the sun and the moon elves specifically) were mostly on the brink of destruction most of their time on Faerun.
    -The age of dragons to begin with and the death of Durothil.
    -The dark elves who where Vhaeraunites (because Lolth wasn't at god during that intermezzo), but the leadership was following Ghaundahaur.
    -Orc wars and Lolth's slow rise to power.
    -Granted...the Sundering and the Crown wars were their fault but during the Crow wars when Evermeet had been colonized, there were gods that attacked the place (Malar, Umberlee, Ghaundahaur).
    -Or the flight of 75 Chromatic Dragons that attacked the place.

While on the mainland, the post Crown Wars situation was mostly about elves being hunted by humans, orcs and other races. Later they managed to create new strongholds (Cormanthor), or managed to strengthen old empires (Illefarn) but during that vulnerable power vacuum they were hunted like rabbits. Some of them decided to remake Aryvandaar but they couldn't achieve the same amount of power as the House Vyshaan could and they had to become Fey'ri which is kinda bad.

Then Netheril came and ascended to floating cities. They ignored the elf warnings and the floating cities caused psychological and physiological discomfort to the elves in general. Although the elves were cautious after the Crown Wars (especially after the Dark Disaster in the fourth Crown War), they still refused to the read the Nether Scrolls in the ruins of Aryvandaar.

That caused fear among the elves and competition ended up much like the Cold War in real life history. It was an arms race. The Netherese created flying cities and ships, the Coronal of Cormanthor began to increase the number of Spelljammers. The Netherese people closed the power gap in the arcane by reading the Nether Scrolls, the elves in return decided to steal some of the Nether Scrolls from Netheril and decided break their own post-Crown War principle and started to study the scrolls in the Windsong Tower. That new knowledge created new perspectives.

After the fall of Netheril, one of the surviving successor states, Hlondath decided to attack Cormanthor after a series of taunting and skirmishes, 500 years of Karsus' folly in 199 DR. 50 years later the current state of Faerun began to form by establishing the Kingdom of Cormyr and other regions and the elves are pushed back to their own enclaves. Having this mentality among the elves lead to the foundation of the Eldreth Veluuthra as Aurora said in the 260s, since the Coronal wanted to open Myth Drannor. Clearly, many of the elves felt that as a threat and not as a good thing, which brings us back to the Cold War and pre-Cold War sentiments of RL history.

It is also important to note that elves are really cautious when it comes to judging their own. They either can't or don't like to accept the fact that one of them is evil or planting discord. They also do not imprison their own but cast them out and it takes a lot to earn that status.
Kymil Nimesin's story is a good example for that. In his case the Harpers had to imprison him and his release was a Deus Ex Macchina because Lolth, Malar and Ghaundahaur visited him personally in the Harper prison and released him. The elves that he recruited were not from Toril but an army of elf from a Spelljammer somewhere in space who were in trouble and he rescued them with Malar's aid. After that he convinced them about his cause and they followed him without knowing that they are about to attack good elves. Although Prince Lamruil had embedded himself to Kymil's group, implying that he wants to overthrow his own mother, the elves got surprised by the nature of the attack which had a Pearl Harbor/911 effect. Not to mention that the significant part of the Durothils on Evermeet helped Kymil and they destroyed the Tower of the Sun and Moon. The elves of Evermeet just couldn't believe that so many would turn against their own due to an agitation of the minority. Not to mention that the Last High Councilor of Evermeet was a Durothil and she suggested that Zaor (a Moon Elf) should become king.

Summarizing these events can be considered quite traumatic especially how elves share memories with eachother. Also, mind that elves are heavily spiritual folks and they also rely on their emotions more than humans do. Summarizing all those events it is not entirely unimaginable that a small portion of elves declare themselves as the majority (see Soviet revolution in comparison) and drag some people down that path. But the change doesn't happen overnight. It takes decades or centuries.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sun, Dec 04 2016, 21:57 PM 

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How about CN Elves? More common then evil to be sure but about how rare?

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Alaria-
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 05 2016, 3:28 AM 

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Lutra wrote:
The Shevarashians on Amia were mostly loitering around Winya, which is also incorrect lorewise or that makes them not Shevarashians to begin with. It was pretty much the best excuse for evil elf character concepts.


I think that is a little bit unfair to say, Notgaret. Just the existence of the Shrine of Eilistraee gives plenty of incentive for 'real' Shevarashans to involve themselves more on the surface. Surfacer drow are supposed to be incredibly rare, and the fact that they converge in the Shrine is something truly extraordinary which should bring a lot of attention.

If the highlighted part is relevant to Amia, I think that the Shrine of Eilistraee shouldn't have existed in the first place. For that reason I think that your part there simply is not relevant to our server, since we do (and have done historically) things differently from what may be common in normal lore.


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 05 2016, 6:55 AM 

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The Shrine of Eilistraee is about as canon as you can get for that religion. Erecting a shrine like that is practically line 1 of their dogma.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 05 2016, 8:46 AM 

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Of all the weird things to exist on Amia, evil elves are largely mundane in my book. Again, I feel like elves in general are just... totally made a larger deal than they should be in lore. I'm really surprised that we haven't had a real group of evil elves over the years. The closest I can think of is Qirlan, and he wasn't so much evil as he was stereotypical asshat of a haughty elf.

The main argument I'm seeing from lore and DMs here is that evil elves simply wouldn't exist for very long in any place that considers itself an "elven settlement." But there is nothing stopping one elf or a group of elves from forming their own coalition and saying no, they're the real elves. Would they be excommunicated from probably every elven power and society on Toril? Probably. Would other elves, even on Amia, likely want to hunt them down? Definitely. But still, the chance exists. And it remains only that, a chance, until some people decide to act on it.

If you want to play an evil elf, play an evil elf. Form a second House Dlardrageth. It is as valid if not more valid than a dozen other things you'll bump into on Amia. Just be prepared that it comes with its own set of challenges, like trying play a paladin in Zhentil Keep.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Mon, Dec 05 2016, 8:55 AM 

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You want a REAL challenge?

Wood elf, paladin 19 sorc 1 rdd 10. LG alignment. Never request a dragon type or wing color change, so you're just a lg red wood elf paladin red dragon.

Now there's a build.

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Alaria-
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 06 2016, 4:16 AM 

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TormakSaber wrote:
The Shrine of Eilistraee is about as canon as you can get for that religion. Erecting a shrine like that is practically line 1 of their dogma.


Having something like the Shrine of Eilistraee on the surface, where Eilistraeeans(and people seeking redemption) converge is not common at all. Eilistraeeans are super rare by themselves. You are welcome to give me examples of canon locations that are similar to our Shrine, though! :)

My point is that if there is something so unusual on Amia, there is plenty of incentive for Shevarashans to take interest in it, which is why I fundamentally disagree with Notgaret's statement about 'incorrect lorewise Shevarashans'. Shevarashans go where the Drow are, which on Amia happens to be on the surface too. I think the Shevarashans on Amia recieve far too much flak than what they deserve. Not all Shevarashans even were evil(which the topic is about).


 
      
Lutra
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 06 2016, 5:01 AM 



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There are now a few in Cormanthor or the High Forest in general, see Elventree as an example. Even Evermeet has an Eilistraeen ambassador so the island can keep in touch with Eilistraeen enclaves. Surface drow are not entirely rare despite the fact that many of them live in secret. Majority of them follow Vhaeraun but there are quite a few Eilistraeen.

Also..Shevarash does not consider Eilistraeens as enemies since -4070 DR.

Also...if there are 10-15 surface drow PCS hanging around in a Shrine it still makes them rare. That number is hardly a tipping point between rare and frequent.

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Dark Immolation
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 06 2016, 6:24 AM 

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Shevarash might not consider Eilistraeens enemies, but how can followers truly know who is Eilistraeen and not simply professing to be one, to make inroads and then back stab unsuspecting elves? Vhaeraunites and other drow looking to not only sabotage their kin, but use their kin's good reputation to get closer to Tel-Quessir stuff.

It's not like every drow that has shown up at the Shrine has been an Eilistraeen upon arrival. It's not like all the ones that have come to it have successfully made the conversion from the other faiths of the Dark Seldarine. It doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to understand "hey, even though the people who run the shrine are cool, they might still attract a lot of un-cool guys." Even without taking them into account, the number of evil drow that used come topside in Amian history would warrant IMO Shevarash followers to stay close by. You didn't have to go into the Underdark when there was a throwdown on Sandy Beach or Amia Frontier with them every weekend.

Quote:
Also...if there are 10-15 surface drow PCS hanging around in a Shrine it still makes them rare. That number is hardly a tipping point between rare and frequent.


Perhaps PCs are rare, but I'm pretty sure the Shrine, in its heyday, was said to have a much larger number of NPC drow as well.

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Tarnus
 
PostPosted: Tue, Dec 06 2016, 7:34 AM 

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Lutra wrote:
Even Evermeet has an Eilistraeen ambassador so the island can keep in touch with Eilistraeen enclaves.


Mostly for the benefit of others: that one's not common knowledge though if memory serves.

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Alaria-
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 07 2016, 9:57 AM 

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Lutra wrote:
There are now a few in Cormanthor or the High Forest in general, see Elventree as an example. Even Evermeet has an Eilistraeen ambassador so the island can keep in touch with Eilistraeen enclaves. Surface drow are not entirely rare despite the fact that many of them live in secret. Majority of them follow Vhaeraun but there are quite a few Eilistraeen.

Also..Shevarash does not consider Eilistraeens as enemies since -4070 DR.

Also...if there are 10-15 surface drow PCS hanging around in a Shrine it still makes them rare. That number is hardly a tipping point between rare and frequent.


Once more, we are talking about PCs, not gods. Just because a Drow appears in the Shrine of Eilistraee does not mean that it is worthy of any kind of trust from a Shevarashan, or even that it is an Eilistraeean at all. Since deep mistrust for the Drow is part of elven lore I just don't see how that is relevant for our characters. The Shrine of Eilistraee should (and rightfully so!) be subject to all kind of suspicion and mistrust from elven PCs, Black Archers most of all.

I think it goes without saying, but our characters are not paragons of our gods. Yes, Shevarash is CN. Yes, Shevarash does not consider Eilistraee a foe. That does not nullify the elf/drow conflict or that some Black Archers may feel differently. Plus, to say that Shevarash trusts or even likes Eilistraeeans would be an overstatement. Eilistraeeans being so rare (as you say too) only supports the fact that they should recieve extra attention from the black archers due to the lore.

To clarify, I am not saying that the Shrine of Eilistraee is incorrect lorewise or however number of PCs they have there in contrast to real population. I am saying that the Shrine is a super-special thing for super-rare characters in the lore and that it deserves any special attention it would get from any Black Archer.

I'm sorry Notgaret, but I'm seeing nothing that supports your statement:

Lutra wrote:
The Shevarashians on Amia were mostly loitering around Winya, which is also incorrect lorewise or that makes them not Shevarashians to begin with. It was pretty much the best excuse for evil elf character concepts.


I will admit that your statement upset me a little bit. I had a Shevarashan in 2013 that started out as Neutral and I have a lot of fun memories of her interactions with Shrinelings (Triel, Irr and so on) plus the legendary Drakos Vek. I am saddened that what you wrote is your OOC stance on most Black Archers we had running around. It was so much more than that.


 
      
serbiris
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 07 2016, 12:02 PM 

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Quote:
the legendary Drakos Vek


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Strom
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 07 2016, 14:52 PM 

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This guy is a brilliant example of an evil elf: Elaith The Serpent. He features in some excellent novels if you can find them. His mindset and demeanour is very multilayered and interesting to read about.

Some points on what I've read above:-

:arrow: I would agree most evil elves dwell outside elven society, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

:arrow: Remember that House Dlardrageth also existed and they were definitely elves before their fall from grace. (Daemonfey)

:arrow: Player Characters almost always represent elements of a people that are rare or different. They're the exceptional cases that go out and change the world, so whilst I agree concepts should be solid and properly understood by staff and player... I'm not sure stamping a giant red 'NO' on non-good elves is warranted, nor looked down upon snobblishlly from the lore perspective. Which does seem to be the tone here by certain people.

:arrow: By much of the logic here I should have had to request my tiefling, in fact. (The only event I could justify for her existence beyond the Daemonfey, was the fallout of Hellgate Keep due to it's escapees.)

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 07 2016, 16:50 PM 



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D&D 3.5 Player Handbook wrote:
The average ability score for the typical commoner is 10 or 11, but your character is not typical. (Page 7)

Choose an alignment, using his or her race and class as a guide. (Page 103)

Normal sentient beings [not ones with an inherent alignment, which Elves do not have] can be of any alignment. (Page 104)

I know the first one talks about ability scores, and not alignment, but it already shows: PCs are not normal. They are extraordinary. They are the few (and really, compared to a city, the barely make a dent) who are stupid enough to go adventuring. Cities have to be sized down in games. Look at the OC. Running through Neverwinter takes maximum of five minutes. Real cities, even tiny ones, take more than five minutes to run through. So commoner outweigh adventurers by far. So, if even half of Amia elves are evil, they make up such a small part of the Elven Peoples as a whole.

Second one: It says guide. Yes, I am gonna be that stubborn idiot and say "It says guide!". It is a suggestion. If it really was that extreme, Elves would have an inherent alignment they could not get away from. Okay, it says there are social and cultural tendencies, but even then. Either Winya (or any other place) is big enough to have that many outliers, or they are small enough to have many outside influences, explaining those outliers. I'm not saying culture does not have an impact, but
Lutra used RL, and wrote:
Cold War in real life history
even the best Propaganda did not hinder some Germans to oppose Hitler. So why would Elven propaganda be so much more superior? Propaganda never gets everyone. And, essentially, what the Elves would be doing is propaganda. I know, not the best source, but here:
Definition of Propaganda, by http://www.dictionary.com/browse/propaganda wrote:
1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.
2. the deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc.
3. the particular doctrines or principles propagated by an organization or movement.

Number three fits here. The Elves are spreading information about Evil, intending to stop people from being evil. Is it propaganda? Yes. Is it a good reason to do Propaganda? Maybe. But does propaganda always work? No.

Lutra wrote:
It is also important to note that elves are really cautious when it comes to judging their own. They either can't or don't like to accept the fact that one of them is evil or planting discord. They also do not imprison their own but cast them out and it takes a lot to earn that status.
Even this says that there should be more than a few exiled Elves walking around. Or they haven't been expelled yet. And them using emotions more? Hate, Greed, Lust, Anger? Some of those might not exactly be emotions in that sense, but anger certainly is. so that would actually say that they rely on their anger more than humans do too. That could make a nice story for an evil Elf...


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 07 2016, 17:04 PM 

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What's being argued here is that an evil elf is an extreme deviation from elf values, and while elves of note often break the mold (it's often why they are of note), and PC's in general also are 'exceptional' by merit of existence, it doesn't change the fact that Amia is essentially crawling with elves on a deviant path and it shouldn't really be the case.

Nobody says you can't, just that it's abnormal to do so, and Amia is crawling with the abnormal.

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robbi320
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 07 2016, 17:11 PM 



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In the start, I was trying to say something like that. With a little difference.

It's not Amia that's crawling with abnormal. It's D&D, and through that NWN and Amia. D&D says it openly. A server based off D&D 3.5, I don't understand why we say that we should have different laws for Elves. Or why a request, in a certain way, has to be more mundane than a non-request character.


 
      
serbiris
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 07 2016, 19:10 PM 

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The thing is, there is an unspoken expectation that PCs of a given race/assumed culture represent a cross-section of the entire population. This expectation arises because we expect our environment to conform to the lore - and the environment that we perceive is influenced mainly by other PCs, with a silent majority of NPCs who do in fact tend to match the expectations. However the very nature of the game, the very design of PCs and the "adventurer" lifestyle creates a dissonance between the two - as has been mentioned many times in this thread, PCs are individuals, outliers, outsiders, people who couldn't get by as average joes because they were too cool for school, or inherited an aberrant situation, or were just plain unlucky. No set of PCs will represent an accurate cross-section of any populace. If there are too many evil elves, there are also too many evil halflings, too many evil humans (not counting the ones who come from evil cultures, which don't even make sense unless you scream "it's social conditioning" until your voice goes hoarse and everyone believes it). "Evil" is simply the ultimate expression of individuality - PCs (and politicians) are basically the only population who can really afford to be evil, everyone else is knuckling under and settling into their cattle herds. Who has ever heard of a peasant getting an alignment shift? What did he do, routinely cheat the taxes under which he is crushed underfoot? Evil cults are a bit of an exception to this, but they're just a different kettle of cattle.

So it's no wonder that there are going to be a lot of evil PCs (relatively speaking), and people are going to complain about it, especially when it comes to elves because they are pretty and the pretty races are the most popular. But when these complaints arise, people get offended because they're basically being told that their RP is wrong. And when they talk about how their PC is different, they thought it through, they worked hard, they even started non-evil and rolled with the punches - like how Alaria did, like how I did. I've had this discussion many times before, and often then people will say "Oh I didn't mean you, your PC is great, I meant in general/someone else/everyone else." And what does that really mean? Well, either they have a problem with all the individuals, or they are treating a group of individuals as a whole unit. Neither is really very constructive.

Bottom line is, it's people expecting people to RP the way they want them to, rather than accepting that the demographic is what it is. Not necessarily because they are jerks, but because they have an idea of how the setting is, and they are looking to the most visible examples which are skewing this perspective. And that's just something people have to learn to deal with, because it's unreasonable to expect people to not play a perfectly legal race/alignment combination just because other people have also decided to do that over the years.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Wed, Dec 07 2016, 20:47 PM 

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I didn't know individuality meant being evil.

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serbiris
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 08 2016, 1:08 AM 

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It isn't, in and of itself. "The ultimate expression" is. Even the truly collectivist evil is all about imposing their will over someone else's.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 08 2016, 1:23 AM 

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Forcing other people to do and act as you do is literally the opposite of individuality.

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serbiris
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 08 2016, 1:27 AM 

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No, forcing yourself to do and act as others do is the literal opposite.

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The1Kobra
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 08 2016, 2:06 AM 

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Well, my take, and yes, I've played an evil elf...

Elves are fundamentally different from humans on many levels. They live for centuries, they're slow breeding, slow, patient, deliberate. This alone would mean that Elves are far more loathe to violence than shorter lived peoples, if nothing else because of group survival. Elves aren't that much more powerful than others to make up such differences (And in fact have a CON penalty), so it would make more sense for them to be more cautious and peaceful than humans.

They're also very spiritual, and tied to the Seldarine, which is a mostly CG pantheon. They're also very slow to change, so changing from such traditions, despite their chaotic natures, is not something that's going to come quickly to them. They're may also have a 'seen it all' attitude (or possibly a 'seen more than you humans' attitude), which well makes sense because most of them have lived at least 100 years if they're up about and adventuring.

Speaking of the Seldarine, elves are very close with their kin, more so than most races. In fact, they even have soul bonding when they choose a life partner. This is another aspect of them, their closeness to their kin is a defining trait. The harshest sentence that they can pass on another elf is to be declared not an elf. Sentencing another elf to death is unthinkable to them. (Unless they're already N'Tel'Quessir, in which case, they don't consider them an elf anymore. Even then they'll let them live unless they're an outright threat).

There's several things which would brand an elf immediately N'Tel'Quessir, as well, so such things they would naturally avoid at nearly all costs, such as:
Murder of another elf.
Palemastery
Blackguard Pacting
Chromatic Dragon discipleship.

Given this all, can an elf still be evil? Yes, it's possible for certain, and there have been several evil elves in the lore, and elves definitely do have their negative traits which if exaggerated, will lead to evil. However, when making an evil elf, one should still keep these things in mind, and know that they're going to be the rarity among their kind, and one who's probably going to see a lot of patronizing from their own kind for displaying such behavior. Even evil elves tend to have a strong devotion to aiding other elves, and an aversion to many of the things elven society thinks is unconscionable.

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Last edited by The1Kobra on Thu, Dec 08 2016, 2:11 AM, edited 2 times in total.

 
      
Kudark
 
PostPosted: Thu, Dec 08 2016, 2:08 AM 

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Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon

Individuality has nothing to do with your moral outlook (good/evil), it is a personal thing that stands someone apart from the norm.

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