AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Shadow weave, Shadow magic and Shadowdancers

I'd like to start this off by asking the question.

Shadowdancers use the 'Shadow Weave' to power their abilities right? If not, what do they use exactly?

Question part two, what is the difference between Shadow weave, and Shadow magic?

Analog Kid wrote:

Shadowdancers use the 'Shadow Weave' to power their abilities right? If not, what do they use exactly?

I don't actually know but I would say no personally, if they don't use the Shadow Weave then it's probably the Weave, but I see no reason it wouldn't be the Shadow Weave. I mean Shadow Jumping is like popping in and out of the Shadow Plane to appear somewhere else nearby on the Prime Material. But that does bring the question I've wondered about to mind. How does the Weave function on the Shadow Plane?

Analog Kid wrote:

Question part two, what is the difference between Shadow weave, and Shadow magic?

Well if you know what the Weave is, the Shadow Weave is it's dark twin sister, not meaning the Shadow Weave is used by those of sinister intent or anything. It's just a second power source that Mystra doesn't manage, that's Shar's domain. Think of it like being a cleric, but it's different. Instead of getting power from a deity or the Weave. You take it from the Shadow Weave which lays on top of the Weave. I know little of "Shadow Magic" so I cannot say what the difference between the two is. But the Shadow Weave is a power source, Shadow Magic sounds more like what spell you form that power into. Like the Weave and Magic.

I'm no expert on Shadowdancers, but I don't think they use the Shadow Weave to draw power for their abilities. The Shadow Weave, as Draco said, is a "version" of the Weave created by Shar. It functions a bit differently from the real thing, as in certain schools of magic are more powerful if the energy for their spells is drawn from the Shadow Weave (Illusion, Necromancy and Enchantment I believe) while others are impaired (Evocation and Transmutation). The Shadow Weave also exists in the areas where the regular Weave is damaged, thus those mages that use it can still cast normally in areas with Wild or Dead magic zones.

I'm not entirely sure if this is what you mean by Shadow Magic, but you might want to read this article. If you meant spells which have "Shadow" in their name (Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, Shades), then these are in no way related to the Shadow Weave. They're simply spells of the Illusion school.

Back to Shadowdancers, I'll first point out that this is pretty much a shot in the dark on my part, but don't their abilities stem from their connection to the Shadow Plane? Like Shadowjump being a short trip between two shadows within the dancer's field of vision, via the Shadow Plane.

Quote:

Shadowdancers use the 'Shadow Weave' to power their abilities right? If not, what do they use exactly?

Absolutely not. They utilize a tenuous connection to the Plane of Shadow and their own supernatural abilities.

Analog Kid wrote:

Question part two, what is the difference between Shadow weave, and Shadow magic?

They are completely different things. The Shadow Weave is the twisted "shadow" of the regular Weave that is used by Sharrans and some other evil casters.

Shadow Magic, as in the Shadow Variants (Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Shades) is more of a technique for casting spells. Instead of solely using the Weave to create a spell effect you use the "stuff" of the Shadow Plane. It has no ties whatsoever to the Shadow Weave. The same way Shadowdancing has no connection. The Shadow Plane(from whence spawn Shadowdancers and Shadow Variants) have no direct connection to the Shadow Weave. The names are just similar.

They use the "Shadowstuff" as the lore calls it. This is not Shadow Weave but rather another magical force that just exists there. We can even just call it "Shadow Energy"
While Negative energy is present on the Shadow Plane, due to it constant movements and expanding, it collided with the Negative energy plane. Now there is "holes" in the Shadow Plane where the negative energy can bleed through. Those lands are called the "Dark Lands".

Shadowdancers powers work through their knowledge to break a parallel plane basically. Like passing through a mirror, but in their case it is the shadows cast on the Material Plane. All of those shadows connect to the Plane of Shadow, whether the person likes it or not, them casting a shadow connects them to this other Plane. So technically all players have this connection to the Shadow Plane. What makes the Shadowdancer class special, is they are aware and able to utilize this connection.

Since the Plane is parallel, it normally would never touch, they just mirror each other but can not pass to one another unless some force was used.

.....................SD..................WM...............................................
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Material

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Shadow

Now the Shadowdancer (SD) Is able to detect the links the shadows on the material make that lead to the Shadow Plane. The Weapon Master (WM) can not, he is just another shadow cast into the Shadow Plane.

.....................SD..................WM...............................................
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Material
......................\.....................?................................................
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Shadow

They are able to use this link (\) To perform their abilities. Hide in Plain Sight works by them being close enough to a Shadow of the proper size, and then make themselves part of that parallel image briefly to hide. Like how a 4-Dimentional object can not be seen in a 3-Dimentional space. It appears flat, or non existent. The Shadowdancer can make themselves into that state long enough to actually hide in a proper space.

.....................SD..................WM?.........................SD.................
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Material
......................\_________________________________/.....................
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Shadow

Shadow Jump works by remaining in the in between (..__..) space between the planes, as to not fall into the Shadow Plane, and not be seen in the material. So the Shadowdancer has Shadow Jumped behind the Weapon Master without being seen on the material due to him being in the parallel space.

Hope that straightens some things out.

For Shadow magic look at page 109 on.

http://www.box.com/s/u9b9v72urgc0dzomab1g

Analog wasn't the only one curious about this

. Thanks Mahtan.

Wow Mahtan that was a great explanation. I thought I'd get lost in it, but that answered a lot of questions I've had about shadowdancers. Thanks!

Would it be possible to mimic shadowdancer abilities using say the Shadowweave? As it has been said, the Shadowweave is just a powersource, I am simply asking if that sort of thing can be done with it. Reason is... I am planning on a Sneaky Shadowweave user and want to get the lore sorted before I worry about personality and "Build".

The Shadow Weave is not a plane. How would you hop into/pull from/skim over it? It's not the fact that it's a power source that matters, the nature of a Shadowdancer's abilities require that you exploit the nature between two planes.

The Shadow Weave is like the Weave and overlaps all things. It's not really a place and you can't "get" to it.
Well, you guys can't, someone else around here can*cough*. >_>

I know that, but would it be possible to "Pretend" to shadowjump using spells such as Dimension Door?

Oh, you can "pretend" to be anything with magic. I can "pretend" to be a priest of Ao as a wizard.

But whether or not your guise will last in the face of people that recognize real Shadowdancing is something that is left completely up to IC.

Secondly, teleporting spells aren't allowed, so no Dimension Door. Granted, not every SD knows how to Shadow Jump, though.

Hmmm and I guess you can't have a Shadowjump widget unless its actual shadowjumping. Fair enough, Thanks anyway.

No, if you want SD powers, be a SD. If you take SD levels and RP them differently as being powered by the Shadow Weave then you are not a SD and will need to request this idea you have.

But like DI said there is no teleport widgets allowed on Amia so you will never get that, as well as never getting HiPS. Some things can be emulated but SD isn't one of them. Especially without a request.

It seems that the Amian canon is slightly different to the Usual FR one, it says here that Shadowdancers actually use the shadow weave. Just thought I would bring this to your attention while I quite happily use Amian Lore.

Aurora wrote:

It seems that the Amian canon is slightly different to the Usual FR one, it says here that Shadowdancers actually use the shadow weave. Just thought I would bring this to your attention while I quite happily use Amian Lore.

Remember the FRwiki is 4th edition.

It's also not citing any references. I could edit that article myself and say the same thing, doesn't mean it's true!

In order to tap the shadow weave in 3.xE a character needed the shadow weave magic feat. This is not a pre-req for shadow dancer as a PRC. They are also not automagically granted it when attaining level 1 in the PRC.

Ive had this discussion in P&P with more than one player while DMing and REFing campaigns.

In 3.xE a character could certainly take the shadow weave magic feat -AND- be a shadow dancer in the same character if they meet all the pre-reqs. The word "shadow" in the name of the PRC is not inclusive of shadow weave usage however.

Even if there is a source, I disagree with it 100% as just said using the Shadow weave needs the Shadow Weave feat. It also needs Shars permission so you do not go insane. To say all SD worship Shar and or make a pact with her to use the Shadow Weave is just silly. Especially when there is 0 mention of it besides maybe one line of text. I have even found rules for FR that make Shadow Dancers use the Astral Plane instead of the Shadow. Which again I think is just silly.

I have found many contradicting -official- sources in my search for lore that makes sense. I really do feel what we have wrote up here for Amia is among the best and most fleshed out lore. As ours touches every single ability they have, and even new ones as the Manual of Planes describes SD being able to develop from the Shadow Plane.

Well, technically you just lose wisdom (A piece of your mind), I don't think going insane is required. But still, I would have to agree with Mahtan about this, even if the sourcebook says otherwise.

Needled247 wrote:

Well, technically you just lose wisdom (A piece of your mind), I don't think going insane is required. But still, I would have to agree with Mahtan about this, even if the sourcebook says otherwise.

Yeah it was hilarious when players who like to min max would grumble a bit about having to pay out 5 points on a standard build to gain 13 wisdom, a stat they would have likely dumped otherwise, only to lose 2 points in that same stat, not have that made up anywhere else pointwise, to gain the benefits and drawbacks of shadow weave usage, which seems like a fairly even trade off save for one point.

When the weave was affected negatively and people trying to tap it either could not, or their magic went wild, the shadow weave was unaffected.

Its a perfect example of character optimization that actually required a trade off rather than the normal powerbuild who gained alot and sacrificed very little to do so. As I am a lover of the dilema, I felt having the trade off in power be something considerable was well worth it.

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=1265828#p1265828

Re-using this topic after i read the above PC story.

My question is; Can you or can't you eat the food from the shadowplane?

There's nothing nutritionally wrong with the food. Various literature describes it as bland and "bloody-textured" and the water is oily, so it might be nearly inedible for people who aren't faced with the choice of eating it or starving, but it's supported various institutions through the years. The lightless land does somehow grow gnarly, withered crops. Now, whether your character knows this IC is another matter, not to mention the risky proposition of sorting out the poisonous plans and animals in an alien world.

A Question to Mahtan:

As you stated that the SD's are aware of the connections the shadows make between the Material and Shadow Plane. Then we can assume that SD would not be able to connect to anything that does not throw a shadow. Say, vampires for example. (As far as I've understood.) And you stated all beings are connected to Shadow Plane, whether they liked or not, well that goes for most cases.

1. Can we assume that SD's have shadow awareness that they can "sense" shadows or the lack of shadow? Not referring to the creatures, but shadows of a persons.

2. Is there drawbacks to a character that does not actually have a shadow any longer? That they are not connected to Shadow Plane.
For example case is as follows: Character does not have a shadow, it was lost under DM supervision and the SD there pointed out they could no longer in any fashion sense she would have a shadow or connection to Shadow Plane.

Does the Shadow Plane have a Day/Night cycle? If so, is it evident in any way?

Kamina wrote:

Does the Shadow Plane have a Day/Night cycle? If so, is it evident in any way?

No it doesn't.

I've read a lot on Shadowdancers/Shadowplane/Shadow Weave/Shadowmagic, but I still feel lost and frustrated. The compiled SD thread is nice, but I feel it only covers the basics. I want to role-play my SD correctly, but I feel that there is too much conflicting information. We go off of 3.5 rules and lore, but also homebrew, right?

I don't like to play a character that is supposed to know more than I do about this stuff. It's very hard to play a character this way, and I feel there needs to be a list of official sources that goes DEEP into this lore.

The basics is what most SD's would know and if someone wants to find more it's time to find the right person/ place I feel.

Unless I am really wrong (correct me if I am wrong Analog or Mathan!) there is much more to learn that what is publicly avaideble on the topic.

Their is a bit of homebrew, mostly because what lore does exist, is rather sparse in general (as a note, we use the planar variant of shadow dancer, rather than the standard I do believe) but with 'shadow magic' it is generally as described in the plane of magic book but it is a subject few actually know about and 'IC knowledge' is twisted in with IC perception and what they've managed to uncover - it isn't something that their is really much known on.

We don't deviate greatly, but a lot has been built on and expanded to give it more fluff and reasoning. The academy is always happy to teach what is known/amia's lore on the matter though and everyone does need to start somewhere (generally!)

Murex,

There is no reason your SD would automatically know everything, and speaking from my own experience, learning it ICly is phenomenally fun. Most of the lore we use is from the sources sited here. Rigela covered the shadow magic, and as was said earlier most of the SD lore comes from Manual of the Planes. We do use the "Plane of Shadow variant" for SDs; which is only a small blurb in the book. The crux of it is though that VERY little lore is published, and it had to be evolved over years of PCs pushing the RP.

There are plenty of us around though that love it, and our characters live to both learn and teach it.

Magiros wrote:

A Question to Mahtan:

As you stated that the SD's are aware of the connections the shadows make between the Material and Shadow Plane. Then we can assume that SD would not be able to connect to anything that does not throw a shadow. Say, vampires for example. (As far as I've understood.) And you stated all beings are connected to Shadow Plane, whether they liked or not, well that goes for most cases.

1. Can we assume that SD's have shadow awareness that they can "sense" shadows or the lack of shadow? Not referring to the creatures, but shadows of a persons.

2. Is there drawbacks to a character that does not actually have a shadow any longer? That they are not connected to Shadow Plane.
For example case is as follows: Character does not have a shadow, it was lost under DM supervision and the SD there pointed out they could no longer in any fashion sense she would have a shadow or connection to Shadow Plane.

Sorry I never saw this.

For both of these its curious and something that would make interesting study in game. For one, I would guess that those things that cast no shadows, would be invisible to the SDs extra senses. They still can see and touch these things. But as far as shadow connections would go, it would indeed be gone. An explanation is that they are closer now to the Ethereal Shadow Plane. Which can bring up some issues with questioning what happens to Vampires on the Shadow Plane. Since rules are Shadow beings can't exist on the Ethereal and vice versa, even in terms of magic energies.

Entirely losing your shadow through magic means can indeed happen and you would lose or weaken the connection of yourself/person/object to the shadow plane. But those things can be restored unless there is some other force that is always preventing the natural thing that material casts shadow in light. So that actual unknown force that causes Vampires to have no shadow, is just unknown.

These things are difficult to think fully on since the real answers do not exist anywhere and the authors never intended us to raise such questions or develop so much more. That is what makes this fun all these years is because we really just get these questions, think about it and try to make sense of it all. So now IC SDs might be researching Vampires to understand them more, to make more sense of what causes them to have no shadows and the effects it has on them and the Planes.

That's my quick take on it and I hope it influences more group study in game among the SD community.

At someone you spoke of Mahtan, about Shadow Druids and that summoning "Night" variants of Shades is deemed the same as summoning Undead;

Is there any sources that explain the differences between Night variants and normal variants?

Mahtan Tasadur wrote:

An explanation is that they are closer now to the Ethereal Shadow Plane. Which can bring up some issues with questioning what happens to Vampires on the Shadow Plane. Since rules are Shadow beings can't exist on the Ethereal and vice versa, even in terms of magic energies.

The... what? The Ethereal doesn't have a Shadow Plane, and there is no Ethereal in the Plane of Shadow. What does that underlined part mean, then?

Err, I guess he means the Ethereal Plane?

Well you see, there was this hesitation between "ethereal" and "plane," and he thought a shadow might fit in there nicely...

Kamina wrote:

At someone you spoke of Mahtan, about Shadow Druids and that summoning "Night" variants of Shades is deemed the same as summoning Undead;

Is there any sources that explain the differences between Night variants and normal variants?

Is there a list of compiled links to the Amia-used shadowdancer/shadow magic lore? Half the stuff I find online is conflicting information (or at least it seems to be that way, I can't tell anymore).

About Shadowdancers, you can always check that thread, but for the rest nothing comes up to my mind. Guess we'll have to use that Search button up there >:(

Most information I use is over here:

http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=68988

And probably in some more Three Steps Academy threats.

NinjaClarinet's IC Manuscript provides some good information, mind it's ICly kept in the advanced quarters which is 10 SD+ to enter, but is good for OOC reference!

http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=77743

The only other "source" is The Student's Guide to Shadowdancing which is the textbook used for SDs ingame, though it was tweaked a few months back, and the thread was not updated.

The links listed so far in this thread are the only available written lore. You could take a look at The Manual of the Planes, though it doesn't include much. I have found a lot of correlation between our 'homebrew lore" and what can be found in "Tome of Magic: Pact, Shadow, and Truename Magic"

Thanks for those links.

Is everything that is considered 'advanced' pretty much homebrew at this point?

To an extent.

AFAIK, the Shade Parasite method is canon, I could be wrong.

Shadow weave, Shadow magic and Shadowdancers

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