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Alternative Sources for Divine Magic
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Author:  Lydyn [ Fri, Aug 31 2012, 23:22 PM ]
Post subject:  Alternative Sources for Divine Magic
Edit: Sorry folks, I was a bit mistaken. It seems it's Forgotten Realms lore that you need a deity to cast any spells from a divine class. The below is a good read regardless though!

It seems several people that I've talked to are a little misinformed about where divine magic can comes from - namely where the power to cast spells for clerics, paladins, druids, and rangers come from. There's three main sources outlined in the Complete Divine; a deity, nature, or a strong belief in a principle. What this means, simply, is that you don't have to worship a deity to get spells - however devotion to nature or a set of ideals has to be as strong as someone's devotion to a deity to acquire such power. If anyone really wants me to dig up more sources, I can, but I'd rather not. One source book, specifically designed to discuss divine magic and divine classes, should be enough.

Image
(Complete Divine PDF Online Link)
Author:  LetumLux [ Fri, Aug 31 2012, 23:28 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative Sources for Divine Magic
The problem with that, is that it is Core, not Forgotten Realms. Forgotten Realms states information concerning its own campaign setting that contradicts what is cited in Complete Divine, and thus overrules it.

Here we go! :

Druids and Rangers:
    "Following is the complete list of nature deities in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting. Druids and rangers must select one of these deities as a patron." - Faiths and Pantheons, page 90

Clerics:
    "Faerûnian clerics function as described in the Player's Handbook except that no clerics serve just a cause, philosophy, or abstract source of divine power. The Torilian deities are very real, and events in recent history have forced these divine beings to pay a great deal of attention to their mortal followers. All clerics in Faerûn serve a patron deity. (In fact, most people in Faerûn choose a deity as their patron.) It is impossible for a person to gain divine powers (such as divine spells) without one." - Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 22-23

Druids:
    "Like clerics, the druids of Faerûn receive their spells from a particular deity, always a deity of nature or animals." - Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 23

Paladins:
    "All paladins of Faerûn are devoted to a patron deity, chosen at the start of their career as paladins." - Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 25

Rangers:
    "Unlike clerics, druids, and paladins, Faerûnian rangers do not have to choose a patron deity unless they reach 4th level and acquire divine spellcasting ability (without a patron deity, a ranger cannot cast spells). Many rangers choose a patron deity before then, but others start by devotion to the ranger's way of life instead of to one of the gods." - Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 26
Author:  serbiris [ Fri, Aug 31 2012, 23:32 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative Sources for Divine Magic
Page 22 of FRCS (err, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting) says specifically that clerics function differently in that particular aspect (ie, they -must- choose a deity, causes/abstracts are not enough). Since it specifically overrules that core rule for the Forgotten Realms setting, it stands unfortunately. DMs seem to support this but y'know, I don't speak for them.

So yes in other settings you'd be right, but in this particular setting, for whatever reason they decided to make clerics pick gods.
Author:  Lydyn [ Fri, Aug 31 2012, 23:33 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative Sources for Divine Magic
Does this apply for rangers and druids as well then? ... kind of restricting, but I can't really argue with the setting, I guess.
Author:  PaladinOfSune [ Fri, Aug 31 2012, 23:34 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative Sources for Divine Magic
It applies to rangers and druids too. If you cast divine magic, then you need to worship a god. A ranger who is not going to cast spells doesn't need to follow a god, naturally, but a deity-less person in this setting is very much against the norm anyway.
Author:  Amarice-Elaraliel [ Fri, Aug 31 2012, 23:34 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative Sources for Divine Magic
According to DM ruling on Amia all Divine classes need a deity to be granted spells. So yes.... druids and rangers. And well clerics anways.

And DM ruling outrules every rulebook. Though as Letum said, Forgotten Realms is having a different opinion about that matter too anyways.
Author:  serbiris [ Fri, Aug 31 2012, 23:37 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative Sources for Divine Magic
Druids are even more restricted in that they have to pick a nature deity - I can pull up a list of those if you like. Paladins too, though they have a different list (mostly LG, LN and NG deities with some rare notable exceptions).

Rangers aren't as restricted as druids, though naturey rangers tend to pick druid deities. They do still need a deity, all the same. It does seem a little restrictive in comparison to Core, but there are -loads- of deities, you'll almost definitely find what you're looking for and in the end the extra baggage of any given deity might make it more interesting.
Author:  Lydyn [ Fri, Aug 31 2012, 23:39 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative Sources for Divine Magic
Well, in my case ... it's not so much not finding a deity that Teriana cannot follow (I'm sure there's many deities she'd agree with), but rather finding one that she feels wanted with rather than just some number to bolster their power. I don't see her being convinced anytime soon ... so I'll avoid the spells for now I guess. If anyone really wants to discuss it further, point me to another forum or PM me - this isn't the place. =)

As far as this goes - I've been corrected and I edited the first post. Sorry guys.
Author:  LetumLux [ Fri, Aug 31 2012, 23:48 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative Sources for Divine Magic
I edited my post up there to include quotes/sources. Maybe some answers for you, Lydyn. You guys are fast! If you need anything else, I still have the Campaign Setting open in my lap.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Sat, Sep 01 2012, 0:06 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative Sources for Divine Magic
FYI - It's not a DM ruling. It's core Forgotten Realms lore, as stated in the thread multiple times. In the Forgotten Realms if you do not have a deity you are not a divine caster.
Author:  Pony [ Mon, Sep 03 2012, 12:09 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative Sources for Divine Magic
Except if you are a blackguard <.<
Author:  Gunz [ Wed, Sep 05 2012, 1:59 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative Sources for Divine Magic
Honeydew Snugglepoof wrote:
Except if you are a blackguard <.<


Not true. Outsiders are a type of deity. Same with spirits and totems. None of them are "gods," but they're deities.
Author:  IronAngel [ Wed, Sep 05 2012, 6:21 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative Sources for Divine Magic
Well I don't know about that. It seems to be a matter of semantics. I'd say a deity is someone with divine rank, portfolio and is subject to Ao's approval to influence Realmspace. Fiends or spirits are independent of that, they don't disappear from lack of worship or conflict with the dominant pantheons. "Divine magic" is ultimately just plain old magic that you get from another creature directly, without doing the work arcane casters do.
Author:  xXxZypherxXx [ Thu, Sep 06 2012, 5:13 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative Sources for Divine Magic
IronAngel wrote:
"Divine magic" is ultimately just plain old magic that you get from another creature directly, without doing the work arcane casters do.



I think I'd disagree, based on the shear difference between divine and arcane magics, I'd say there's a little more to them. (Not that I know enough to tell you what it is! But still..)
Author:  serbiris [ Thu, Sep 06 2012, 7:35 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative Sources for Divine Magic
The differences are fairly cosmetic. Sure, they cast a lot differently and the spell access differs a fair bit, but on a fundamental level it's the same.
Author:  IronAngel [ Thu, Sep 06 2012, 7:59 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative Sources for Divine Magic
Yeah. The spell lists are different for game design reasons primarily, and probably reasons of culture and practice IC. But a Bull's Strength is literally the same spell whether it's cast by a wizard, sorcerer or a cleric. They may perform the required components differently, and even two wizards may cast their spells with unique personal flair or cultural convention, but the spell itself is essentially identical, a representation of the same pattern in the Weave.
Author:  Gunz [ Thu, Sep 06 2012, 21:36 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative Sources for Divine Magic
IronAngel wrote:
Well I don't know about that. It seems to be a matter of semantics. I'd say a deity is someone with divine rank, portfolio and is subject to Ao's approval to influence Realmspace. Fiends or spirits are independent of that, they don't disappear from lack of worship or conflict with the dominant pantheons. "Divine magic" is ultimately just plain old magic that you get from another creature directly, without doing the work arcane casters do.


I agree. In part! Outsiders actually aren't a type of deity. It was a long three day weekend. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it!

Fiends are only deity-like in their ability to grant mortals spells like a deity can. They're not real deities. A few of them have become deities after gaining large cult followings though (Gargauth and Baphomet for example). Other outsiders would have similarly found a loop hole to grant spells.

Spirits on the other hand are often aspects of a God, like Totems. If worship of Uthgar and Rillifane Rallathil ended, you can kiss the Gods goodbye, as well as their aspect Totems and Spirits respectively (unless another God took it over, of course).
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