I have several related questions. Firstly, this made me curious:



Are all Shadows and Nightshades (including crawlers and wings) Outsiders, by Amia lore? Or are some Outsiders, while others are Undead? If the latter is true, in which circumstance does the Undead form arise as compared to the Outsider?

In either case of the above, is it possible for Necromancy (arcane, if it matters) to control/summon/otherwise manipulate shadowy-sorts, seeing as they seem to be at least somewhat formed of negative energy (Chapter 2 of viewtopic.php?f=46&t=34293 indicates such, though only covers Shadows) and most necromancy spells involve manipulating negative energy one way or another? I know Illusion magic can do it, but since I can't think of a specific reason why Necromancy couldn't I thought I'd ask if one existed.

Next question: what's a good source for general information on undead? Libris Mortis comes to mind but is there anything FR-specific, or does FR-specificity not matter in this case? I know Lords of Darkness (1988) is a good source but it's impossible for me to get a look at it. The question I want answered is simply "what are they?" on a more technical level, because I see a lot of conflicting ideas and I'd like something at least a little definitive.

Last question... somewhat less related, but it's been bugging me: if the Plane of Shadow has no colour, why do the Shadovar of Thultanthar have colourful fashion ("burgundy, charcoal gray, dark green, and midnight blue")? Shouldn't all their clothing just be... monochromatic? I'm wondering if a Shadovar character would need to act appropriately shocked and constantly dazed by the introduction of colour to their life. Or if I should just ignore the issue as a design oversight/paradox.

Sorry for the wordy post, thank you for your time.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

I'll leave the questions pertaining Amian lore and the plane of Shadow to those better informed than myself. The only question I will hazard to throw my two cents on is the general undead information one.

Yes, the Libris Mortis would be the book to go to for that, I think. Lords of Darkness doesn't really touch upon the subject of undead much, actually. And, from what I can tell, the knowledge in the LM does apply in the FR setting. Undead are, in essence, beings animated by negative energy. Be they corporeal, incorporeal, intelligent or non-intelligent, those who do and those who don't need to feed, they all share this trait of being sustained by negative energy.

The thing is, Negative Energy has not been (at least to my knowledge) covered in great detail in any book. We simply got a "it's the antithesis of life, deal with it". Even LM only has a few short sentences regarding it. Still, I do remember reading that "some scholars" (ergo probably not a canon thing) consider that negative energy exists in all planes of existence and is the D&D explanation for aging and decay.

Back to the subject of undead, though, it's a wee bit difficult to say what they are in a few words. At the most basic level, they are what I've said: beings animated by negative energy. Beyond that, you run into the problem of having to fit them in categories according to how they come to exist (spawned by other undead, animated via magic, returned from the grave to seek vengeance, etc), what sub-type they belong to (corporeal, intelligent, etc) and so on.

Generally (and if I'm wrong, I hope a DM will correct me) undead are considered to be evil, with very few exceptions (baelnorns and arch-liches are the only two I can think of on the fly). The explanation for this, which I think I've read in the LM, is that the unintelligent ones are driven by a desire to eradicate life (negative versus positive energy thing), while the intelligent ones usually end up either having to feed on the living (vampires) or considering short-lived mortals as nothing more than pawns or nuisances (liches).

Regarding Lords of Darkness, I was talking about the one referred to here http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/L ... %281988%29 wherein the description seems very interested in Undead (thus, I would be surprised if indeed it has nothing to say about them, though I wouldn't put it past FR wiki to be misleading/wrong). I'm aware that there is another book by the same title which is more interested in canon evil factions in FR (and has absolutely nothing to say about undead!), not sure if that's what you were referring to.

You're right that I asked sort of a difficult and complex question in general terms, sorry about that - it's probably a question best answered by pointing towards sourcebooks (I'll leave it for DMs to confirm if Libris Mortis applies but my best guess is that it's on the same level as Draconomicon, which is accepted). The information you've given me is quite helpful though, and brings me to a specific question: Libris Mortis discusses what you mention about negative energy animating undead, but it also mentions the presence of "disembodied spirits" and the like, which seem to be responsible for the (very, very) primitive intelligence of mindless undead, as well as the more sophisticated intelligence of higher-order undead. Given the sheer volume of undead in Forgotten Realms, is this the case? If so, where are all these spirits coming from? Bits of dead non-mortals? Kelemvor has butter-fingers when it comes to guiding souls to their final rest (if said spirits are even souls at all)? Gods accidentally dropping their followers' souls? In some cases it's pretty clear (powerful undead like liches seem to have their own soul, mohrgs seem to be the tortured souls of mass-murderers inhabiting their corpses, etc) but with creation and most animation it's a bit hard to tell. Any idea?

Thanks for that, though!

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@Thanatopsis#6293

D'oh! Should have looked at that 1988 more closely, my bad. That is, indeed, a sourcebook I've never had the chance to get my hands on, sadly.

As for the disembodied spirits thing, I'm not so sure. Some undead, like ghosts, are unfortunate souls which for some reason can't move on. Others, like Revenants, are spirits who return from beyond the grave to complete a particular task. But the idea of souls inhabiting unintelligent undead such as simple skeletons and zombies seems a bit off, I think.

As for the intelligent undead, they generally retain their knowledge/personalities (vampires). Liches construct their phylacteries for the sole purpose of storing their soul. Others, I believe, lose their memories and/or personality (ghouls and wights, both of which have Int scores above 10) upon transforming into an undead creature. Still, in these cases, it makes more sense that the newly-created undead retain its mortal soul rather than be inhabited by a displaced soul (which I don't think are common in the FR setting, not that I'm aware of, at least).

So, in short, I say the disembodied souls idea is a bit off. S'just my opinion, though!

It does sound off, because it would mean that there are an awful lot of disembodied souls out there and you'd have to wonder where they are/come from. But, even mindless undead have basic faculties (they know how to move, how to fight, to sense the life they want to kill, and they follow orders) so that intelligence, limited as it may be, must come from somewhere. If it's not random evil spirits, then is it the neg plane itself, or the spells used to animate them include "primitive mind" in the package? I sense I'm reading into this too much...

I agree that "converted" undead like ghouls and wights (to a lesser extent maybe mohrgs, though in a different way) would probably have keep their body's soul, just too twisted to maintain their identities in the way liches and vampires do.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

Might be erroneous to make this comparison, but those same basic faculties are shared by constructs, which don't per say have souls. Golems have elementals "built in" as a driving force, but other constructs (such as gearwork ones or automatons) don't, yet still are capable of walking, finding a target, attacking, etc.

I don't think anyone's ever given that much thought to those certain aspects in a world where "magic" is the all-purpose plot-hole insulation device. But it would seem logical that if a spell such as Speak with Dead "draws on the imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse", then most basic of functions are "stored" within a corpse. Thus, when the corpse is imbued with negative energy and rises as an undead, it comes "programed" with those base faculties such as walking and so on.

I have my two cents to put in here too, but I need to do some sifting around As one of the prime players in the Shadowplane, I've been pretty lucky to be in close contact with more than a few knowledgeable people on the subject....however, I'm only one cup of coffee deep right now.

The short version of what I -think- I know is this: Creatures such as Nightstalkers, Nightwings and the like are 'planar undead'. The things we encounter in the Shadow Plane when we are playing in Amia, are also 'planar undead'. The flip side are the Shades employed by Shadowdancers, THOSE things are planar only, even though they too are comprised of negative energy.

I'm going to go do some homework on the subject now, and *BLAMPOOF!!!!* throw up a flare here for Mahtan Tasadur to get in on this. He's the expert I believe.

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I Am:
Derrin: 'Nothing to see here'
Beck: Hard working dwarf paladin.
Naela 'Widow': Wandering priestess.
Celinor Triellian: Paladin of Corellon.

Yes, Shades summoned by a Shadowdancer are planar only.

On the other hand, shadows are still very much undead creatures.

It isn't easy to tell the difference between the two for most. That's intentional.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

Nightshades are tricky to pin down even as undead, what are they are undead of was never made clear in anywhere in 3.5. Pathfinder witch is not 3.0-3.5 or FR or Amia has a more in depth explanation and maybe there is one buried in a dragon magazine article somewhere for 3.0-3.5, they almost seemed like an excuse for designers to say "hey look its a giant shadowy undead thing have fun trying to kill it".

Tricky to pin doen as undead?



It's literally their first line in the monster manual. Stop obfuscating.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Everything I've read about Nightshades from the Tome of Magic, Monster Manual, Libris Mortis, etc confirm that they're undead.

There's a feeding chart in Libris Mortis which actually indicates what they must feed on to survive, along with many other undead types. The only nightshade that doesn't actively require feeding to my knowledge is the nightwalker.

They also get mentioned several times in the course of context, especially in a section explaining Undead and how they fear, the Nightwalker gazes and paralyzes most mortals with fear.

I think it doesn't get any more clear than that, really.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Regarding Nightshades: yes, I've read the Monster Manual, which states undead. What confuses me is the first quote in my post, which suggests that on Amia some/all Nightshades are Planar. That's the source of my confusion. So, what's the word? I'm getting the sense that at least some of them are Undead at least, which is enough for me.

It would suggest that a necromancy specialist could mess with undead shadows also if that was the case.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

They are extra planar undead. So in a way they are both, they are the undead of the Shadow Plane but still very much undead. Easy way to see it, Shades = Alive. NightShades = Undead. So the Night classes them as Undead. Since on Amia Shades have kinda become Shadows.

Even though Shades are something entirely different in real canon lore. They simply share a name with the true Shades.

In that same topic I thought for sure I posted the word that I was mistaken and misinformed on what Amia stood by. I think its even sillier Shadowscapes has Nightwings in there. Which those are not even Nightwings.

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Ahh, I see. Thank you for clarifying that. And yes, I did notice that the Nightwings in Shadowscape look like... not Nightwings.

I'd vote either blown up bats (not sure if they could get big enough, even with 200%), or maybe gargoyles, with the shadowy VFX. Vargouilles and some sort of flying eye thing also might be suitable if they could get big enough.

...Not that I've been thinking of how one could represent a Nightwing, for EMD, or anything like that...

But that's moot if they're supposed to be shade-things (not to be confused with Shades of Thultanthar) and not Nightwings at all.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

That, and the temple of mask comes to mind, lol.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

I sense a revamping of Shadowscape approaching!! xD

Well I meant more tricky as in the explanation is pretty vague equal parts pure evil and such and it raises a question what were they in life? Were they ever alive at all? Always seemed like there was allot of questions not overly well fleshed out in MM entries.