| AMIA ARCHIVE https://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/ |
|
| Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. https://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=64700 |
Page 1 of 1 |
| Author: | Gobbledygook [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 23:08 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
Ok, so this is quite a big topic I've been wondering about. A few questions here: 1. How much does a common, average person in FR know about what comes after death? Is it widely accepted that what the clerics of the world say is correct, and that each of the faithless goes to their own diety's domain/purpose? Or does it vary like in our world, where everyone beleives different things? 2. How much does a cleric typically understand about their religion, what comes after death, their diety's relation to the material plane, etc? Of course this could range from people who know nothing, to people who have a fair understanding. What I'm trying to find out is, just how much would a cleric understand about their own faith? Does it get to the point where a cleric is so wise and experienced that they come as close to a likeness of mind to their diety? Or is this never achievable? 3. Anyone have sources for some reading on how faith works in FR in general? Not specific dieties, but religion as a whole? |
|
| Author: | Yossarin [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 23:13 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
4. How many times do I have to answer these questions? |
|
| Author: | Gobbledygook [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 23:30 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
Sorry, I couldn't find a clear answer, so I asked here. |
|
| Author: | Gunz [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 2:20 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
1. Until recently, not much was really understood about the nature of death. When Kelemvor became Lord of the Dead, a lot more became understood because Kelemvor takes a more forward and transparent approach to the job of Lord of the Dead than any god previous to him. Read about Kelemvor and you'll see what types of things are known. Of course, the tales of the past probably still inflict fear into the hearts of people who haven't received the word of Kelemvor and those who have heard it but still believe the old tales are the truth. This is all Faerun specific, mind. Death theories likely change a bit from region to region, but they change even more when you change lands with different pantheons that don't include Kelemvor. "Faith and Pantheons" and "Faiths and Avatars" are the books for you. 2. Cleric knows as much as a cleric knows. There's not good way to answer this. Just don't take everything from your source books and spit it out like it's common knowledge. Remember that source books are OOC, not IC. Take whats appropriate and leave the rest alone, in terms of the IC. It's not impossible that a cleric would try to mirror their deity exactly, but there are more cleric who focus on certain aspect of their deity than those who try to embody the deity completely, I would say. 3. See the last sentence of answer 1. |
|
| Author: | Gobbledygook [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 2:48 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
I'll have a look at those then. For your response to 2, this is exactly my problem. I'm not sure how much of this OOC knowledge should be common for a cleric to understand IC. What is an appropriate level, in terms of the Amian setting? I guess it is a pretty tough question, but that's why I'm asking. |
|
| Author: | Gunz [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 3:01 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
I hate using the phrase "common sense," but it really just takes a bit of that to determine what can be touched and what should almost never be touched. For example: That Nobanion beat the crap out of Malar during the times of trouble is known among a lot of his clergy. That Nobanion dislikes how his wemic clergy interpret his dogma as something Malar-like and he's hoping they change one day? Probably not known by almost anyone. That's told to the reader in the source book so you can understand the kind of god he is, not because it's a known truth among followers. |
|
| Author: | Liz [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 3:08 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
There's no possible answer the the question "what's appropriate." The only question would be what's 'probably' appropriate 'for whom.' Are you a cleric of Kelemvor, Urogalan, Sehanine Moonbow? Then you probably know a lot about what your culture has to say about the afterlife. Are you just some dumb bumpkin farmer's daughter? Then it's reasonable for you to be more or less clueless. It's really only a determination you can make for yourself, I think. |
|
| Author: | Gobbledygook [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 3:23 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
Those are fair answers, thanks for the effort! I get your point, Gunz, personal ambitions, etc wouldn't be touched, whereas a widely held attitude would be commonly known. Those are reasonable barriers. I'll find those books and have a read before I ask more. |
|
| Author: | Xaviera [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 14:20 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
I assume it's a common assumption that you go to the plane of your deity to be with them in the afterlife, unless you've really messed it up and they consign you to wherever those who fail go. |
|
| Author: | Yossarin [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 18:15 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
1. What Gunz said. 2. What Gunz said, with the following suggestion: consider it not unlike real world religions. And to truly comprehend that will mean you'd need to wander outside of the realm of the Judeo-Christian establishment (which, including Islam, is very dogma-heavy as some FR religions are) and into the realms of alternative belief systems, primal worship, OBEs, ecstaticism, the Church of the Self or LaVeyan Satanism and soforth to get notions of how non-dogmatic or subversive religions function. The analogs will never be perfect, nor should they be. There is a detail that heavily differentiates real world models from the FR models for faith, though, and you must keep this in mind: there is direct historical evidence that the gods exist, since the Time of Troubles was only a generation ago. 3. What Gunz said. |
|
| Author: | Ravenovf [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 20:54 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
Always seemed a pretty easy answer to me I guess. Die-> Judged by Kelemvor-> Go to what ever spiritual destination your faith says waits for you, The wall for Aethists, or who ever owns your soul legaly. |
|
| Author: | soundofastream [ Wed, Apr 04 2012, 0:18 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
I also think you'll know about the faiths from the area you're from, at the very least a little bit about them. You'll also likely know about the faiths you come across in your travels IC around Amia, when you meet those priests. But you're not going to know about every deity out there. I also think, as a level 5 you're going to know so much and as a level 30 a lot more. |
|
| Author: | DustSpray101 [ Thu, Apr 05 2012, 18:12 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
Ravenovf wrote: Always seemed a pretty easy answer to me I guess. Die-> Judged by Kelemvor-> Go to what ever spiritual destination your faith says waits for you, The wall for Aethists, or who ever owns your soul legaly. Actually, so far as characters know, not all races are thought to go to Kelemvor from an in character perspective. IE: In Kobold (traditional) culture, Kurtulmak's faith emphasizes a cycle of reincarnation after judgement of ones life by Kurtulmak. |
|
| Author: | Mobile_Svensk [ Thu, Apr 05 2012, 18:44 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
But what about other faiths? I mean, There are several other Deities that have DEATH as their portfolio, Just as kelemvor. |
|
| Author: | DustSpray101 [ Thu, Apr 05 2012, 21:14 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
Well, what would your character choose to believe IC? |
|
| Author: | Mobile_Svensk [ Thu, Apr 05 2012, 21:44 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
That's beside the point - I want to know what the Lore is on the subject. The sourcebook lore |
|
| Author: | Liz [ Fri, Apr 06 2012, 0:58 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
Yeah... which sourcebook, though? There's all sorts of information that's vague, contradictory, disputed, or obsolete. Which I think is kind of perfect, actually, since what most people know IC about the afterlife is probably vague, contradictory, disputed, or obsolete. As much of a loremonkey as I usually prefer to be, this is kind of one of those areas that I'd prefer to see left without official definition. Nothing IC is ever likely to concretely confirm or deny whatever it is that your character happens to believe, even if your character happens to believe some completely bizarre fiction that doesn't even come close to existing anywhere outside of her own mangled imagination. I don't think anyone's RP will suffer by a lack of definitive information about the afterlife. So why force the issue? |
|
| Author: | TormakSaber [ Fri, Apr 06 2012, 2:42 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
Don't hold your breath for an answer. |
|
| Author: | Kraniumbrud [ Sun, Apr 08 2012, 10:58 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
i would think most would know that Kelemvor took the place of myrkul and is now the definitive lord of the dead...such things I would not imaging would slip past the knowledge of anyone in the civilised world...as for the other gods with death in thier portfolio...Kelemvor is still the lord of the dead....its kinda akin to the magic gods are being below mystra in the magic ranking. just my 2 cents anyway best advice really...belive what you will, take the discussions up ingame, its way more fun |
|
| Author: | soundofastream [ Fri, Apr 13 2012, 10:52 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
But are the magic gods below Mystra in ranking? I'm not so certain its the case. Take Baravar Cloakshadow, Correllon, Sehanine and a bunch of other non-human race gods on magic and the lore seems to indicate they're the creator of magic per se. Probably because 'the weave' as we know it, is only one form of magic. Going back even further, we have the nether scrolls, that seem to have been stolen from dragon's magic and are the basis of all modern common magic. Thus we could actually say that the 'true' owner of magic, as most humans know it, is in fact Io. So once again, the lore often contradicts itself. If we look at elven magic, I've read a few stories saying that they stole it off dragons. But, another version saying they brought it in when they migrated to Faerun via spelljammer ships. So who knows.... |
|
| Author: | slkNihilus [ Fri, Apr 13 2012, 11:10 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
soundofastream wrote: ...Going back even further, we have the nether scrolls, that seem to have been stolen from dragon's magic and are the basis of all modern common magic... Not entirely accurate from a few standpoints. First, it's unknown who created the Nether Scrolls, which indeed were the cause for the nethenese research on magic to really take off. The Scrolls are thought to have been passed down by the Creator Races, found in Realmspace or were a gift from Mystryl herself. Secondly it's stated that some races, such as the elves, already had their own type of magic since before the discovery of the Scrolls. It's known that in its early days, the Nethenese empire traded with the nearby elven kingdoms and one of the things they "imported" were spells and knowledge of magic. So, at least from this angle, I think your argument is flawed, soundofastream. |
|
| Author: | LetumLux [ Fri, Apr 13 2012, 12:00 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
Re: Mystra, Magic and Other Deities of Magic, not directly related to OP questions - Mystra in her current form is younger than many of the other gods, however the legacy of the Weave still makes her the most important deity of magic in the Forgotten Realms cosmology. In terms of raw Divine Rank, Mystra is 18. Corellon, for example as another Magic-related god, is 19. (I imagine this is largely because he's a creator god in multiple different Realms, and there a million billion elves.) It should be noted that few other deities actually have the Magic domain, or in their portfolio, also. Sehanine and Baravar don't; they have mysticism and illusion, respectively. Corellon has Magic as a domain and portfolio, but his focus has ever been as the creator of Elves, not the creator of magic. [Faiths and Pantheons] Other gods of Magic are no where close to Mystra in terms of these rankings. The story goes: Ao exists. Ao creates Selûne and Shar. Selûne and Shar made Toril/Chauntea, then fought over how to run the place. Mystryl is created from the fight between Selûne and Shar, being torn from Shar's body/essence/whatever by a blow from Selûne's own body/essence/whatever, making these four ladies the first Faerûnian deities. That implies Mystryl was before any other deity of magic in the Forgotten Realms or as far as Toril/Faerûn is concerned. Before Mystryl, magic was exclusively something for deities. It wasn't until the Weave and Mystryl that mortals (anything not a deities, such Creator Races) could access magic. Who introduced them to magic after that point is likely where various creator deities (Corellon, etc) play a role in teaching their mortal children about the Art. Faiths and Pantheons, pg 56 wrote: According to the oldest myths, Lord Ao created the universe that now holds the world of Toril. Through this act of creation, protoplasmic raw existence took the form of twin deities, one representing light and one representing darkness. These deities, Selûne and Shar, birthed the heavly bodies, in the process creating Chauntea as the animating spirit of the world of Toril. Chauntea begged the sisters to grant her world warmth and light that life might flourish upon it. Selûne relented, igniting the sun with elemental fire. Shar, who treasured the primordial darkness and resented Chauntea's concept of life, lashed out at her sister, initiatng a conflict that has endured to the present day. Enraged, the Lady of Loss snuffed out the lights of Selûne, greatly weakening her in magical battle. Finally, the Moonmaiden tore a piece of her magical essence from herself and flung it at Shar. When the blast hit the Dark Deity, it ripped away some of her essence as well. From the meld of light and dark, energies came Mystryl, a being of pure magic who went on to shepard the Weave blanketing Toril. Faiths and Pantheons, pg 18 wrote: Chauntea is one of the oldest Faerûnian deities. Shar and Selûne predate her, having given her life when they created the world of Toril. In the ensuing millennia, Chauntea has forged passionate relationships with several deities, many of whom no longer exist in any meaningful form. So too has she battled (and even destroyed) deities who schemed to befoul Chauntea's world. Some of her worshipers claim that Chauntea is the progenitor of all the mortal races, that the creatures who populate the world first emerged from her womb in the days when the air was quiet and the earth was still. Faiths and Pantheons, pg 50 wrote: Shar secretly created the Shadow Weave long ago in response to Selûne's creation of Mystryl and the Weave (to which Shar inadvertently contributed.) Magic of Faerûn, pg 4 wrote: The birth of the being known as Mystryl did more than just balance the war between the sisters of light and darkness. Her very existence changed the reality of the universe by creating the Weave, the conduit that allows creatures to use magic. Suddenly, rather than magic being restricted to deties, any creature with the talent or training could draw upon the power of magic through the Weave. When sentient creatures appeared on Toril, some of them learned to use the Weave while shamans and clerics drew their magic directly from the deities. Acknowledgment of her gift led to worship, and Mystryl drew power from that, becoming one of the more powerful deities. Magic of Faerûn, pg 9 wrote: The Weave acts as both a barrier and a gate between raw magic and the world. With the Weave in place, mortals can access magic and are protected from the harmful effects of contacting raw magic while still able to rap its refined energy. With the Weave gone, raw magic quickly dissipates from the world, but only after disrupting existing magic and lashing out at nearby magical conductors.
|
|
| Author: | soundofastream [ Fri, Apr 13 2012, 15:37 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
Yes, but the dragons have been around (and the dragon gods) longer than most of those deities. Thus Io, could arguably, be the creator of magic. That's the problem, sourcebooks contradict themselves over and over and are largely silent when it comes to the demi-human or non-human gods. Human gods, get the limelight, but it doesn't mean they're right. For all we know, Io might be the equivalent of Ao, but for dragons (or just another aspect of Ao). Its largely silent on how the creator race gods, came about and whether or not, they surpass or are older than Realmspace. |
|
| Author: | soundofastream [ Fri, Apr 13 2012, 15:44 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
slkNihilus wrote: soundofastream wrote: ...Going back even further, we have the nether scrolls, that seem to have been stolen from dragon's magic and are the basis of all modern common magic... Not entirely accurate from a few standpoints. First, it's unknown who created the Nether Scrolls, which indeed were the cause for the nethenese research on magic to really take off. The Scrolls are thought to have been passed down by the Creator Races, found in Realmspace or were a gift from Mystryl herself. Secondly it's stated that some races, such as the elves, already had their own type of magic since before the discovery of the Scrolls. It's known that in its early days, the Nethenese empire traded with the nearby elven kingdoms and one of the things they "imported" were spells and knowledge of magic. So, at least from this angle, I think your argument is flawed, soundofastream. In the sourcebook that deals with ancient civilisations, its states that dragonic magic was thought to have been written down by dragons, stolen by the lesser races, during the first draconic wars with the lesser races, in the form of the nether scrolls...there's also a story about it, in that FR novel series dealing with Elves, which shows elves stealing the magic from a gold dragon, which, kick starts off the creator race wars as the lesser races free themselves from their draconic masters. |
|
| Author: | Lyriel- [ Fri, Apr 13 2012, 15:56 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
soundofastream wrote: For all we know, Io might be the equivalent of Ao, but for dragons (or just another aspect of Ao). I LOVE this thought! |
|
| Author: | CouncilofAutumn [ Fri, Apr 13 2012, 22:09 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
soundofastream wrote: Yes, but the dragons have been around (and the dragon gods) longer than most of those deities. Thus Io, could arguably, be the creator of magic. That's the problem, sourcebooks contradict themselves over and over and are largely silent when it comes to the demi-human or non-human gods. Human gods, get the limelight, but it doesn't mean they're right. For all we know, Io might be the equivalent of Ao, but for dragons (or just another aspect of Ao). Its largely silent on how the creator race gods, came about and whether or not, they surpass or are older than Realmspace. Dragons of Faerun, pg 7 wrote: In he wake of the Days of Thunder, dragons rose to rule Faerun. Elven myth, recorded in the form of the Parwiccan Cycle, speaks of the Tearfall, thought to refer to a rain of meteors that fell from the sky. Some scholars interpret the ancient texts as suggesting the meteors precipitated a dramatic climatic change, which in turn sparked the rapid evolution of proto-dragons (little more than large lizards) into the varied forms of dragonkind known today. Others claim that the meteors were in fact falling dragon eggs, from which the varied races of dragonkind were born into this world. Here it states that dragons didn't exist until they were spontaneously created after the Days of Thunder. Regardless of which particular interpretation you view, the dragons were born here and didn't exist in a void somehow before Chauntea (who was the land of Faerun)... All references to Io or "Asgorath" creating the world and all other deities are always mentioned with the caveat that 'this is what is believed by Dragons'. Whereas every reference to the creation of the world state Lord Ao begat Shar and Selune, who begat Chauntea and Mystryl, and so on, without any mention of 'this is what is believed by non-dragons'. It's as dry as a feat or spell description. I think it's likely that Ao and Io are buddies. Maybe Io is his faithful dragon steed, and they go on adventures where they do absolutely nothing together. |
|
| Author: | slkNihilus [ Fri, Apr 13 2012, 22:14 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
soundofastream wrote: In the sourcebook that deals with ancient civilisations, its states that dragonic magic was thought to have been written down by dragons, stolen by the lesser races, during the first draconic wars with the lesser races, in the form of the nether scrolls...there's also a story about it, in that FR novel series dealing with Elves, which shows elves stealing the magic from a gold dragon, which, kick starts off the creator race wars as the lesser races free themselves from their draconic masters. The only problem with those is that they are not considered source material. |
|
| Author: | LetumLux [ Sat, Apr 14 2012, 0:40 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
I wouldn't personally consider Selûne and Shar "human deities" since they're actually primordials of some of the most fundamental concepts in the Realm (game universe) of Forgotten Realms; light and darkness. Chauntea is Toril. Mystryl is the Weave. There were no humans around at that point, and not for a fabillion years afterward to worship them, which means they would have been worshiped by all manner of whatever other creatures came first. The confusion might be coming in because in other Realms (Greyhawk, Eberron, Krynn; other game universes) some of these beings and deities already existed and have their own creations, but it has no bearing on Forgotten Realms because it's an entirely different Realm. Corellon Larethian, Moradin, Gruumsh, Lolth, Kurtulmak, and some other deities also exist in other Realms and are possibly so potent that they bled into other Realms or crossed there willfully, and there is even precedent of mortals doing this (Mordenkainen, Tenser, and Bigby, among others, are not from Toril; they are from Oerth, which is Greyhawk) but it doesn't mean they were always there and it doesn't mean their importance in that Realm/Campaign Setting/Universe is the same as it was in the other Realm. |
|
| Author: | TormakSaber [ Sat, Apr 14 2012, 0:58 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
Quote: Here it states that dragons didn't exist until they were spontaneously created after the Days of Thunder. Regardless of which particular interpretation you view, the dragons were born here and didn't exist in a void somehow before Chauntea (who was the land of Faerun)... All references to Io or "Asgorath" creating the world and all other deities are always mentioned with the caveat that 'this is what is believed by Dragons'. Whereas every reference to the creation of the world state Lord Ao begat Shar and Selune, who begat Chauntea and Mystryl, and so on, without any mention of 'this is what is believed by non-dragons'. It's as dry as a feat or spell description. This is correct. Dragons, and their pantheon, came after. |
|
| Author: | Gunz [ Sat, Apr 14 2012, 5:04 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Clerics / Knowledge of the cosmos / Religion in FR. |
LetumLux wrote: Chauntea is Toril. Yup. This is important. Chauntea isn't Faerun, she's -Toril-. As for gods who are also gods in other realms (Corellon, Yondalla, Garl Glittergold, Moradin, Lolth, etc), their forms in other realms are 100% independent of their form in the FR setting. For example, the Lolth in FR and the Lolth in Greyhawk have some very distinct differences. Think of it like the same person in a parallel universe. They're the same god, but their lives have panned out differently in each world, which has made them develop differently. That was their agreement with Ao upon coming to Toril, that their form on Toril be an aspect. |
|
| Page 1 of 1 | All times are UTC |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|