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| Faking faith https://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=64682 |
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| Author: | Larsaan [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 0:58 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Faking faith |
Would posing as a member of a faith you don't believe in put at risk of said deity going smite-happy on you? Like if I (and this is, of course, purely hypothetical) make an evil character that poses as a follower of a neutral deity while actually worshipping an evil deity/devil/demon, could the neutral deity smite that character out of the blue? Would it be possible to utter fake prayers to the neutral deity without suffering vengeful deity rage? Would I have to roll Bluff? And so on. This is, of course, assuming that the evil deity is one that tolerates subversion and trickery. |
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| Author: | Gers [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 1:04 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
A single individual posing as a member of the faithful probably wouldn't be noticed, be seen as a test for the true faithful to root out, or simply not be regarded as enough of a threat to merit personal attention better spent elsewhere. Most deities will not directly go after someone unless they've become a major threat to the faith as a whole (like if a Sharran was about to become the 2nd in command of Selune's church, for example). Plus, I believe that lore-wise, there's likely a compact or agreement amongst the deities that forces them to use mortals in such situations. |
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| Author: | Ulir [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 1:15 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
Can a deity read their subjects minds (I would think they couldn't, unless putting effort into it)? If someone chose to impersonate another faith, they would likely tell their diety about such, to avoid terrible consequences to begin with. Wouldn't the deity know if their subjects has a change of heart all of the sudden? Deities who favor secrecy would likely not pay too much attention to this, would they? On another note, if you fake a faith that is too different from your ways, couldn't the deity realize and smite you where you stand? |
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| Author: | Larsaan [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 1:22 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
Ulir wrote: Can a deity read their subjects minds (I would think they couldn't, unless putting effort into it)? If someone chose to impersonate another faith, they would likely tell their diety about such, to avoid terrible consequences to begin with. Wouldn't the deity know if their subjects has a change of heart all of the sudden? Well sure. It's not the faith being hidden I'm wondering about, it's the faith being faked. For instance, a follower of Mask pretending to be a helmite to gain access to treasuries, a loviataran pretending to be a follower of, well, any lawful deity in order to justify meting out punishments, etc. |
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| Author: | TormakSaber [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 1:31 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
I see zero issues. |
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| Author: | Dark Immolation [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 1:37 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
All other questions can pretty much be answered here unless DM's state otherwise. Remote sensing, speaking to people, etc, etc. |
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| Author: | Ulir [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 1:48 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
Ulir wrote: On another note, if you fake a faith that is too different from your ways, couldn't the deity realize and smite you where you stand? I mean the deity that isn't yours. |
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| Author: | Dark Immolation [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 1:54 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
They could, of course. The thing is, would they really have the time? Would they even care to? A deity is getting a huge number of prayers on a daily basis, including ones that they must personally grant and answer(clergy receiving spells). In the given course of the day, they may go "Huh, I don't know you as one of my faithful, so I'm just gonna not listen to you" or "Ew, you're really different than me, bugger off." But halting everything you're doing, literally dozens of things on an astronomical scale, just so you can lob a lightning bolt at some harmless mook doesn't seem practical. Maybe after continued advances or if they feel you're mocking them, but even then they're more likely to send one of their servants, mortal or otherwise, after you. |
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| Author: | Ulir [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 2:37 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
Using the same example as Gers. If a servant of Shar would impersonate being a follower of Selune, it might be different. Stopping such imposters early would benefit Selune, as she would know that doing nothing could do much harm. |
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| Author: | Larsaan [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 2:48 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
Well, if I were to make such a character, which I totally won't (*cough*), it would probably be a combination of beliefs that wouldn't conflict too much. Like the loviataran example. Or a talonite posing as a kelemvorite to kill with disease and poison masked as "it was just his time". Or something like that. |
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| Author: | Gunz [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 5:13 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
Kelemvor is very heavily opposed to Talona, actually. |
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| Author: | Lord-Hadeis [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 8:46 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
I say it wouldn't be a diety if it wasn't aware at all times of any and all its followers or those who use its name or symbol. Time I doubt is a concept they are much troubled by. But then, mankind has never been able to invent gods greater or less flawed then themselves and Amia gods are especially uncaring and unatentive. What has been suggested in the first post I've played out as often as not. |
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| Author: | TormakSaber [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 9:18 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
Gunz wrote: Kelemvor is very heavily opposed to Talona, actually. That's not the question. The question is about a Talonite posing as a Kelemvorite. which is fine. |
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| Author: | Yossarin [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 14:46 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
Lord-Hadeis wrote: I say it wouldn't be a diety if it wasn't aware at all times of any and all its followers or those who use its name or symbol. Time I doubt is a concept they are much troubled by. But then, mankind has never been able to invent gods greater or less flawed then themselves and Amia gods are especially uncaring and unatentive. What has been suggested in the first post I've played out as often as not. The gods of the Forgotten Realms have some very specific limitations when it comes to matters of omniscience and prescience. They also have quite a few other limitations. These limitations are what make the gods of the Forgotten Realms broker deals with one another, take certain actions that come at great risk to themselves, etc. I say this after reading through Faiths & Pantheons, which indirectly explains why they are the way they are. There is a very large misconception about the attention of the gods. They are not directly paying attention to you any time you pray, or any time you cast a spell or use a divine ability. Think of yourselves rather like the monkey in a cage who hits the lever on a pre-arranged mechanical system and a banana falls out of a chute. Your ordainment is the initial installment of that machine, and along the way there are moments when it receives tweaks and maintenance. Every spell or divine ability or answer prayer (via the Amia prayer system, anyway) is just a banana that your god filled the machine with a while back before heading out to the mall. That said, it is easy for a good infiltrator to get inside of a religious order without the god of that religious order without ever being any the wiser. And even if the god found out, the god doesn't always have very easy means to smite you or have you smited (again, part of their mechanical limitations). I will say for the record that it is also a mistake to say that in Amia the gods are uncaring and inattentive. I could list several deities who are right now monitoring a variety of different things directly related to Amia, and who have taken action in critical moments. But for the most part, as much as the PCs have faith in them, they have faith in the PCs to handle whatever trouble threatens their patrons' dominion (in addition it is almost always better for a good story to allow PCs to claim both responsibility and glory). |
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| Author: | RaveN [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 16:17 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
Gers wrote: (like if a Sharran was about to become the 2nd in command of Selune's church, for example). Plus, I believe that lore-wise, there's likely a compact or agreement amongst the deities that forces them to use mortals in such situations. I'm not sure about the agreement between deities but the ones listed wouldn't have any such pacts, but in the case that Selune might feel threatened, I would disagree. A deity's remote sensing isn't that overpowering. It can only be used so often in a vast world where Amia's probably one of the smallest sects of any given religion. Sure, they can detect their portfolio powers, but that's just waves in the sea for them. They don't know who or what's involved, just looking at it in their peripheral vision. If they choose to using their remote sensing, then I suppose it comes down to whether or not they would be able to use the PnP detect spells to make a decision like that/or would they even know themselves? They might be smarter than mortals and anything but they're still catching a conversation mid-sentence whenever they do things like that. Plus, faith is not an exact science. Even true followers do things they're not supposed to. It happens all the time; that's why we're mortals. "Good infiltrator", as Yossarin puts it, I mean, to me, a lot of it weighs heavily on the assumption that Amia is different than how the books envisioned the realms. The idea of petitioners existing on many of the planes is to eradicate the unfavored alignment of any specific plane. Actively able to detect alignment and attack (like on Elysium and Celestia) without any type of provocation other than judgement on alignment alone, is how these places justify the balance. Granted the material plane has no such petitioner, many classes who act as champions for these deities have the similar spells. Seeing as how all of these are PnP spells and Amia currently lets you say yay/nay to PnP usage (and mostly no, when Detection spells are used), does a God's usage then trump these same rules? If so, to what end, and to what extent? |
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| Author: | Elorathall [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 16:24 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
I have thus far been under the impression that deities have a passive awareness of things happening around areas where their influence is strong (such as within and the close vicinity of temples and clergy). They might not always be actively listening, unless something in particular draws their attention, but they're at least aware. Also, it's stated in Faiths and Pantheons that gods tend to be aware of events of sufficient magnitude that relate to their particular portfolio. I recall that, for example, Tempus is aware of all battles that involve at least 500 combatants (or some such). I also read an interesting 'theory' in one of the OGL books (which wasn't related to Forgotten Realms), that gods tend to take note of prayers based on the 'purity' of the prayer in question. As such, a god may take greater notice, and be more inclined to respond to, the prayer of an innocent child than the group prayer of a 100 of his/her followers. The idea would be that gods' likeliness to respond to prayers, directly or indirectly, is in part influenced by how passionate and pure the prayer is. Exactly what this means might depend from god to god, and the nature and circumstances of the prayer. Illmater might consider the fervent prayer for strength of a follower who's locked himself inside a house filled with plague victims to ease their suffering to be particularly worthy of reply, while Cyric might be moved by a whispered prayer of an assassin who's about to murder someone in honour of Cyric, and for no other reason. |
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| Author: | Heartless_Insanity [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 18:02 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
theres actually an old adevture path in 3rd edition thats all about shadovar and sharrens posing as an entire temple of mystra preaching mystras faith teaching her belifes but when people would come in for the 3 day fasting they would dominate them with an acient sharren artifact. using this example, considering mystra and shar pretty much hate eachother i would say its very possible to impersonate another faith and it becomes the followers job to root out the problem. a god would never smite a person when she has people to do it for her i meen these people built an entire temple dedicated to mystra and tainted it with shades and shadowmagic, even undead and nothin is done but what the players do to stop the weave.... IF memory serves the adventure path is called the Tearing of the weave. its set in forgotten realms |
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| Author: | davis114 [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 18:29 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
If you do something that would actually garner the attention of a God, A DM will probably let you know. Otherwise, you're an insignificant speck of dust in the overall workings of the Pantheon. |
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| Author: | DerkDerkistan [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 22:12 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
Mystra even posed as a high priestess of Bane, perverting his teachings by being more like Loviatar when trying to test Elminster. Yeah, it was in a book, but still. It's canon. So, if gods can pose as followers of other gods, I imagine mortals can too (since mortals, while less powerful, are far less restricted than gods). This is just confirming the DM rulings in this thread, btw. |
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| Author: | corypx [ Mon, Mar 19 2012, 22:57 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
the class Ur-priest also would be a key to mention about gods not being all knowing and seeing. "The ur-priests have learned to siphon off the divine or unholy energies granted by gods to their divine spellcasters, using it for their own needs without giving even lip-service to any god" " Of necessity they are cunning and stealthy, never stealing too much from any single deity, but instead slipping in, drawing out power, and slipping back out." |
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| Author: | Gunz [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 2:08 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
TormakSaber wrote: Gunz wrote: Kelemvor is very heavily opposed to Talona, actually. That's not the question. The question is about a Talonite posing as a Kelemvorite. which is fine. He was giving an example using them as two faiths that don't conflict much, which is untrue. That's what I was referring to. Talonites are very easily in conflict with Kelemvorites. I actually think a Talonite masking as a Kelemvorite would have a very hard time pulling it off. You would have to be very very smart about it. That's more referring to being caught by the true faithful though. In comparison, something like a Loviatari or a Hoarite masking as a Kelemvorite would work great and likely go unnoticed with a lot less effort, because their dogmas don't conflict almost at all. You might be seen as a bit of an extremest, but that's nothing uncommon among Kellies. |
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| Author: | TormakSaber [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 2:25 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
corypx wrote: the class Ur-priest also would be a key to mention about gods not being all knowing and seeing. "The ur-priests have learned to siphon off the divine or unholy energies granted by gods to their divine spellcasters, using it for their own needs without giving even lip-service to any god" " Of necessity they are cunning and stealthy, never stealing too much from any single deity, but instead slipping in, drawing out power, and slipping back out." Technically, Ed Greenwood has gone on record as saying Ur-Priests in the Forgotten Realms BELIEVE this, but some unnamed deity is the one granting them power. I don't like this and think it's way cooler that even the Gods can be stolen from. |
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| Author: | Nivo [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 2:30 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
TormakSaber wrote: I don't like this and think it's way cooler that even the Gods can be stolen from.
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| Author: | Gunz [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 2:45 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
I think a marriage of the two ideas is cooler, rather than just the one. |
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| Author: | Yossarin [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 2:50 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
If unwashed way over the hill bearded bears is your thing, go ahead and pop Ed the question. I'll just stick to fucking around with pure imagination and never calling back. |
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| Author: | Gers [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 3:23 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
Tormak wrote: I don't like this and think it's way cooler that even the Gods can be stolen from. Agreed. If Karsus could steal enough of Mystryl's power to do what he did to her and the weave, yes, the gods can be stolen from. |
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| Author: | Kraniumbrud [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 16:22 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
Gers wrote: Tormak wrote: I don't like this and think it's way cooler that even the Gods can be stolen from. Agreed. If Karsus could steal enough of Mystryl's power to do what he did to her and the weave, yes, the gods can be stolen from. ...by what reasoning is the extreme example of Karsus's power is proof of anything?..the very personification of the most extreme and most powerfull non-god in existance? Also i would remind you what happened to the most powerful mortal that ever lived shortly after he absorbed the power...and you think it is something that is..actually done by "normal" folks, even on a small scale? If anything Karsus's folly should have put a final and definate end to mortals stealing from gods, except in the rare cases where mortals rise to become gods. |
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| Author: | Grymia [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 17:34 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
Kraniumbrud wrote: Gers wrote: Tormak wrote: I don't like this and think it's way cooler that even the Gods can be stolen from. Agreed. If Karsus could steal enough of Mystryl's power to do what he did to her and the weave, yes, the gods can be stolen from. ...by what reasoning is the extreme example of Karsus's power is proof of anything?..the very personification of the most extreme and most powerfull non-god in existance? Also i would remind you what happened to the most powerful mortal that ever lived shortly after he absorbed the power...and you think it is something that is..actually done by "normal" folks, even on a small scale? If anything Karsus's folly should have put a final and definate end to mortals stealing from gods, except in the rare cases where mortals rise to become gods. It'd be a definite prompt to hunt down anyone who manages to even come close but .. to say ti COULDN'T be done Kranium? No. The Ur-Priest is an interesting foil to the Faith heavy Faerun and the typical solution of simply being of an evil religion rather then goodly. |
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| Author: | Kraniumbrud [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 17:44 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
Grymia wrote: It'd be a definite prompt to hunt down anyone who manages to even come close but .. to say ti COULDN'T be done Kranium? No. The Ur-Priest is an interesting foil to the Faith heavy Faerun and the typical solution of simply being of an evil religion rather then goodly. Anything can be done, but i would say again that the chance of a normal person even remotely tapping into the weave or the shadow weave to gain some messure of power (atleast i believe thats where thier power come from, im not sure about that, though the prereq's for shadow weave caster would suggest such)..a normal person...sure they can do it...but would it be someone even remotely close to somehting that makes sense for class to be based around, not by a long shot, this is one in a trillion kind of stuff, shar and mystra are hawks over thier weaves..and AO would certainly not allow such blatand disregard for the rules he so fervantly set up...Devine power is given only through service..AO might not care about faerun..but i do believe he cares about his power over the devine. |
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| Author: | Kraniumbrud [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 17:45 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
i would say its as likely as casting level 10+ spells..and that is as close to certain as a non tax/death thing can be |
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| Author: | Yossarin [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 18:18 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
Such exceptions to the norm as Karsus and the Ur-Priests and certain other forces most of you know nothing about will remain in place for the simple reason that it brings the gods down a few pegs and gives them actual, legitimate story motivations for doing the things they do, which may sometimes including helping you out, so I wouldn't complain. Not a very good Lore answer, but the Lore is waaaaay over your collective heads, anyway. |
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| Author: | Kraniumbrud [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 18:30 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
i would say that it dosnt take gods to make a good story, especially in faerun that has such a abudance of great groups to use for great things, i personally think that the gods should be kept out of reach so that a feel of them being utterly superior to mortals is never called in doubt, thus aiding in supported in faeruns godfearinness, that I think is something that makes faerun great. If that means i wont meet bahamut, then im perfectly happy with that. Im not complaining, im just saying that 10 level spells are impossible and that i would think tampering with the power of gods..no matter how little is still going against AO's control..which I would think..atleast extremely dangerus |
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| Author: | TormakSaber [ Tue, Mar 20 2012, 19:02 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Faking faith |
I will take a simpler answer than Yoss: We say it can happen so it can. Argument done. |
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