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| Souls https://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=64098 |
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| Author: | Ðraco [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 1:47 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Souls |
I could go on and on about questions about souls so I'll start with a couple. Firstly, how does a body fair if it doesn't have a soul? Normally I would say it dies or whatever but some experiences in D&D games like Baldur's Gate 2 and Neverwinter Nights 2 Mask of the Betrayer (which was my all time favorite D&D campain for a game) suggested differently. For instance in NWN 2 when you get to Thaymount in the Red Wizard Academy, you can compete with this one Red Wizard, pitting your golem against his super decked out golem. So confident in his golem that he made wagers for peoples souls if they fought against it. Anyways after your golem beats his he reluctantly gives you his soul.You take a gem that holds his soul but he doesn't die. His face just goes blank and he walks off without another word and that's the last you see of him. In Baldurs Gate 2 Throne of Bhaal this you have to fight or bargain with this Lich for this merchants daughters soul. The girl just lies in bed as though asleep, not dead despite the lack of a soul. So what happens if a living creature has it's soul stripped from them, do they just die? Game over and your in the fugue plane unless it's thrown into a gem or something. Next question has partly to do with monks, every soul has divine energy. When a monk uses his Ki abilities, Ki suppose to be an energy they channel from inside. Does this Ki energy originate or have anything to do with their soul? |
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| Author: | Mahtan [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 2:03 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
Based on the soul thing you mentioned, my guess is its only portions of their soul, which they can heal from but will be greatly weaker than before. When someone's soul is removed fully from a body, the body is dead. The soul lives and can be places in a new body or used for other magic purposes. If the soul is eaten, by devil or demon, the person is erased from existence. The persons soul that is used for magical purposes may or may not be erased depending on the magic used. |
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| Author: | TormakSaber [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 4:10 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
I'm going to say it was probably dramatic effect. If a body has no soul, they're dead. Or might be unintelligent undead. |
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| Author: | NinjaClarinet [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 4:14 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
I imagine the person keeps on living for a while. The biology keeps running, the brain keeps thinking, but all motivation is gone. The person is no longer able to change in any meaningful way, being "stuck" in the moment it lost it's soul. All logical functions are there, but it just doesn't care about anything. A few days later it dies from sheer hopelessness, or turns into a zombie. Just an opinion, though! |
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| Author: | TormakSaber [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 4:24 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
I will politely remind you that two DMs have said the opposite and so your view is incorrect on Amia. |
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| Author: | Yossarin [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 4:35 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
I tend to believe that answering questions like this is dangerous. But I also believe that putting the power to manipulate the presence of souls in other peoples' bodies in the hands of PCs is also a stupid and dangerous move. I admit I like the idea of the soulless wanderer. The "empty shell" that has no motivation or impetus or cosmic value but just wanders the world having little to no impact on anything. Doesn't mean that's what actually happens. But I also believe no one really has the mental fortitude required to play or even relate to a concept like that, and so I'd just agree that without a soul, the body is wormfood. |
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| Author: | Ðraco [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 6:41 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
Ok that's one question down, no soul=wormfood. Ðraco wrote: Next question has partly to do with monks, every soul has divine energy. When a monk uses his Ki abilities, Ki suppose to be an energy they channel from inside. Does this Ki energy originate or have anything to do with their soul? So does Ki energy have anything to do with the person's soul? Is that part of that "inner energy" that they tap into for their abilities and strengths? |
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| Author: | TormakSaber [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 7:53 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
I'd rather not link Ki with soul, no. I'd rather not link soul with anything personally because then it gets messy. If I cut you off from accessing your Ki, did I injure your soul? etc etc. |
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| Author: | Gers [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 8:02 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
I've always seen ki as mental energy, not soul-related. Soul stuff is more divine-related, in my book. Ki would be closer to specificly focused, rigidly proscribed psionic power. |
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| Author: | Mahtan [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 8:04 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
Ki is life energy, something that exists in all things. Monk and WM Ki is just their ability to utilize this energy and as they do, their own is improved and grows stronger. |
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| Author: | TormakSaber [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 8:30 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
Quote: Ki would be closer to specificly focused, rigidly proscribed psionic power. No thanks. Quote: Ki is life energy, something that exists in all things. Yes. |
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| Author: | Tomato Sword [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 8:37 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
Well, 3 DMs to chip in on the Ki thing so you have Amian Lore right there, but I'll comment on what I know about the traditional "Ki" in my country. Not really to contradict anything that's been ruled already, but just for additional perspective. Ki is actually something related to your body, not to your mind or spirit. So it's closest to what Mahtan said. Like disruption of Ki flow in your body would lead to disease, for example. Has a lot to do with your vitals like intestines, lung, liver, heart and blood flow. So no, even in its traditional sense, Ki being a soul thing doesn't make a lot of sense. |
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| Author: | NinjaClarinet [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 8:54 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
It's The Force! >_> |
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| Author: | Silent2001 [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 14:17 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
The biggest indicator that you can't live without a soul is the spell Soul Bind. It's impossible to come back to the world of the living if you lack a soul, or your soul is trapped. So you're dead, I'd say to be alive as a mortal you need both your shell and your soul. |
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| Author: | Lord-Hadeis [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 14:57 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
But would a soul removal mean instand death or do we have an hour of a few to walk away dramaticly, fall over in the bushes, slip into coma and then snuff it? |
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| Author: | slkNihilus [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 15:19 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
A demilich has the supernatural ability to trap a sentient creature's soul in one of its eight soul gems, upon a failed fortitude save. The description of what happens in that case is "The soulless body collapses in a mass of corruption and molders in a single round, reduced to dust". So I think that the moment a creature's soul is yoinked out of its body, it's pretty much dead on the spot. |
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| Author: | Remal [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 19:12 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
Ki (or Qi) is literaly "life-force". It permeates everything, and flows both around and through the body. Vital organs are places where that flow concentrates. Monks (and WMs to a limited extent) learn how to better manipulate that energy in many ways (through rigorous training, meditation, etc), and can use it to affect world around themselves (by manipulating ki of their surroundings, both in positive or negative way). That's how I see it, could be wrong. 
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| Author: | Halecta [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 19:49 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
A monk upon reaching level 20 becomes one with his spirit, which is why they become a outsider (body and spirit become the same entity), so it is very much linked to thier spirit/life force. |
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| Author: | Chai [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 20:05 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
My favorite reference in any of the D&D material is the Cleric Quintet series, where the Nightmask lord "Ghost" is this weakling with a magic item that causes a soul swap, so he lets people beat him to a pulp, then uses it to transfer his soul to their body and their soul either goes into his body and suffers the symptoms of the beating he took, or if he got killed, the other soul departs and his "real" body lies there dead (until the ring of regen on his toe inside his boot heals it that is). No soul basically = inanimate in D&D lore. |
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| Author: | TormakSaber [ Mon, Feb 20 2012, 23:53 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
Halecta wrote: A monk upon reaching level 20 becomes one with his spirit, which is why they become a outsider (body and spirit become the same entity), so it is very much linked to thier spirit/life force. And 3 DMs have said this is not the case, so you are wrong. |
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| Author: | Silent2001 [ Tue, Feb 21 2012, 9:17 AM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
Chai wrote: No soul basically = inanimate in D&D lore. Newp. Dead. |
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| Author: | Chai [ Tue, Feb 21 2012, 19:47 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
Silent2001 wrote: Chai wrote: No soul basically = inanimate in D&D lore. Newp. Dead. There are quite a few instances where the material suggests otherwise, like the one I outlined in my previous post. I am well aware, however, that D&D source and canon also contradicts itself quite a bit for the purpose of being able to tell a story or create a plot. |
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| Author: | Yossarin [ Tue, Feb 21 2012, 19:49 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
Even more important than that is the fact that current DMs say otherwise. |
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| Author: | Ravenovf [ Wed, Feb 29 2012, 15:31 PM ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Souls |
Ki has nothing to do with the soul as stated, a monks perfect self is more representative to an epitome of a monks lifetime goal of a perfect state of mental and physical enlightenment. Mind, body and spirit become one transforming the monk into being not entirely of this word and granting him immunity to mind effecting effects. A monks Ki powers may help him on this path but are no more related to the end goal as the coal in a furnace is a part of the sword forged upon it. |
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