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Are there any Paladins of elistraee? Or any paladins at all for good drow?

Being that Eilistraee is a Chaotic Good deity, she doesn't support pallies. Far as I know, anyway. "Drow paladins" (I'm sorry, but the very idea is just... no) can worship gods who allow such (Tyr, Helm and so on).

No. She is CG.

Actually no elven deity sponsors paladins (I'm pretty sure they're all Chaotic?) but there have been paladins of Corellon and I think Angharradh on Amia and they've been accepted. It's not canon kosher but has been considered fitting enough.

IronAngel wrote:

No. She is CG.

Actually no elven deity sponsors paladins (I'm pretty sure they're all Chaotic?) but there have been paladins of Corellon and I think Angharradh on Amia and they've been accepted. It's not canon kosher but has been considered fitting enough.

So no deity that is CG can sponsor paladins? I mean, is this a Pnp rule?

Can drow(good ones) become paladins of any seldarine deity then?

I believe it's due to the fact that divine spellcasters sponsored by a deity have to have an alignment at most 1 step removed from their deity. So, a CG deity only sponsors characters that are CG, CN and NG. Pallies are LG so they're a no-go.

Drow worshiping the Seldarine is... odd. Drow paladins are even more odd. But unless the DM team very specifically discourages such things, I suppose a drow could worship one of the elven gods who do sponsor paladins.

Corellon has paladins. Or at least there are paladins that serve him.

But Elistraee, no, she does not have paladins. Most elven deities don't simply because they all tends toward Chaos. Corellon is probably an exception because he is literally a god of so much more than just "elves" like we think of him as.

Last edited by IronAngel on Fri, Apr 20 2012, 15:13 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Corellon has paladins. Or at least there are paladins that serve him.

Where did you find this information? People have made the claim before, but I've been unable to verify it. I very much doubt that any paladins of Corellon are introduced in source books, though the half-assed Races of Faerûn may make a vague reference to sun elf paladins of unspecified deity. (I'm not sure if it does.)

Though on Amia, yes, Corellon can have paladins (or at least the elven equivalent). Probably the most famous elven paladin on Amia, Amber Tyrintar, was a paladin of Tyr though. So it's not like that couldn't work too.

And yes, One Step Rule applies to paladins, generally. Sune is an explicit exception. Selûne is possibly an exception depending on how you interpret the Order of Crescent Moon in Champions of Valor - it's an order to Selûne and Clangeddin, so it could just be that the paladins are all Clangeddans. But anyway, she has had paladins on Amia. I suppose True Neutral gods who accept all alignments could also have paladins, such as Oghma, but this isn't stated anywhere.

There has been a drow paladin of Corellon before, but I wouldn't recommend it. It was somewhat questionable and I think he had to prove himself at one point.

Something I just thought of: Heretic of the Faith allows you to be more than one step away from your patron. With a request to the DMs at least, it would be perfectly possible to be a heretical paladin to serve a Chaotic Good or True Neutral deity, or even something further away if the reasoning is sound. But things like paladins of Oghma would make a lot of sense as slightly heretical interpretations.

Sune has Paladins, she's a Chaotic Good Deity.

Order of the Ruby Rose ring any bells?

Grymia wrote:

Sune has Paladins, she's a Chaotic Good Deity.

And she's explicitly mentioned as the only exception to the One Step Rule in the FRCS. Not that she is the only exception anymore, but certainly the least ambiguous.

there are exceptions to the CE one step rule, but as far as i know it is only sune that can do it.

The elven Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower, which is the only thing even remotely close to being elven knights...are still just cultural protectors, they do not sound anywhere close to what a paladin is..

I do not think Any CG god should have Paladins, but that is just my two cents, they are simply too far from the strict life a paladin must live, with extreme focus on laws.
As for Sune, I have never meet a sunite paladin so I do not know how they are

As many other people have said Eilistrae doesn't have paladins in the direct sense, but since no one has mentioned them previously, she does have a "Knightly Order" called the Darksong Knights. But from the little bit I know about them from Champions of Valour, they seem to be mostly fighters (IIRC, they have fighter substitution levels). Personally, I would also suspect a fair number of them multiclass as bards and or Divine champions, but this is simply my gut feeling.

So no paladins, but she does have church sponsered warriors. And like all other gods, Divine Champions.

The Order of the Forgotten Flower in Amia Realms has Paladins to Corellon.

Selune has Paladins.

Sune has Paladins.

Eilistraee to my knowledge has not had Paladins.

/argument

There have been paladins of Eilistraee before on Amia. That said, they weren't lore-correct, as Eilistraee doesn't have paladins. And they're mechanically impossible now due to the deity system, I believe.

Gers wrote:

There have been paladins of Eilistraee before on Amia. That said, they weren't lore-correct, as Eilistraee doesn't have paladins. And they're mechanically impossible now due to the deity system, I believe.

Rly? How does that work?

Autofall for not having the right alignment for your chosen deity.

I imagine that can be mechanically circumvented with a DM request, though? Not in relation to this topic specifically, but for future Heretic of the Faith requests.

Are there AFR-Paladins of Corellon elsewhere than in the Forgotten Flower? They're basically a group of elven Indiana Joneses, so it's not like they're exceptionally fitting to sponsor the only Seldarine paladins. Can other Seldarine like Angharradh (especially her) have paladins on Amia?

IronAngel wrote:

Dark Immolation wrote:

Corellon has paladins. Or at least there are paladins that serve him.

Where did you find this information? People have made the claim before, but I've been unable to verify it. I very much doubt that any paladins of Corellon are introduced in source books, though the half-assed Races of Faerûn may make a vague reference to sun elf paladins of unspecified deity. (I'm not sure if it does.)

Though on Amia, yes, Corellon can have paladins (or at least the elven equivalent). Probably the most famous elven paladin on Amia, Amber Tyrintar, was a paladin of Tyr though. So it's not like that couldn't work too.

And yes, One Step Rule applies to paladins, generally. Sune is an explicit exception. Selûne is possibly an exception depending on how you interpret the Order of Crescent Moon in Champions of Valor - it's an order to Selûne and Clangeddin, so it could just be that the paladins are all Clangeddans. But anyway, she has had paladins on Amia. I suppose True Neutral gods who accept all alignments could also have paladins, such as Oghma, but this isn't stated anywhere.

There has been a drow paladin of Corellon before, but I wouldn't recommend it. It was somewhat questionable and I think he had to prove himself at one point.

Something I just thought of: Heretic of the Faith allows you to be more than one step away from your patron. With a request to the DMs at least, it would be perfectly possible to be a heretical paladin to serve a Chaotic Good or True Neutral deity, or even something further away if the reasoning is sound. But things like paladins of Oghma would make a lot of sense as slightly heretical interpretations.

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=62658

But here's a DM approved paladin of corellion.

Quote:

Name: Caelis' Amarillis
Race: Moon Elf
Age: 132
Height: 5’7’’
Weight: 155 lbs
Hair: Black
Eyes: Green
Class: Paladin

Early stage

Son of Deryl and Alyduiryl Amarillis, Caelis’ grew up among the Amarillis youth within their estate in Leuthilspar. As a confident youngster, he began a swordmanship practice with Dariel Amarillis. Caelis’ committed himself fully to the weapon master’s training, showing prowess with the greatsword. His prowess lead him to commence a study at the temple of Corellon Larethian, joining it’s clergy as a paladin.

Middle stage

After having served two decades, his preserved wanderlust changed his intrinsic motivation. He had studied the lore of the Elves and the dogma of the Coronal of Arvandor and desired to share his knowledge. He’d been in contact with a knight of the Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower and joined the organization in their quest. Combining his study as a paladin of Corellon Larethian and his dedication to recover lost relics throughout Faerun, he set off to the mainland to spread the values of the Elves. He’d wandered the lands for three decades, exploring the many different nations and forests but had been unsuccessful in locating lost artifacts. Upon returning to Evermeet and learning about his house’s new mission, he once again journeyed to another nation in hope of returning the legacies of the Elves to Evermeet.

Personality

Still young, Caelis’ is filled with ambition to prove to all that the path of life he’s chosen will grant him experience that will favour the house greatly. Due to his study among the Clergy of Corellon Larethian, he possesses a self reservation different from most Moon Elves. His racial outgoing nature reveals itself often in a game of gambling or any celebration (perhaps because of the combination with alcohol). He thrives to become the best at what he does and has a great awe for armorcrafters.

Is that an autofall?

Not sure why you're replying to me? There's no unclarity about paladins of Corellon being acceptable on Amia, as Tormak said. (I was curious about DI's canon source, as I've never seen one.)

Unless you mean to reply to my latest post, showing that you can indeed circumvent the automatic Fall mechanism with a request.

Oh, I just quoted it generally.

I ment to say that If one player can play a paladin of corellion, then can we not take his approval as a prejudical instance where all other paladins of corellion gets an automatic OK
And doesn't it also mean that we can also play paladins of chaotic good deities?

Well, that's not a lore issue really. More like server policy. But yes, paladins of Corellon are acceptable (provided your character is otherwise acceptable to be a paladin and serve Corellon; he wouldn't normally accept drow, perhaps. Ask a DM.) Tormak said it, end of argument.

Doesn't mean anything for paladins of other CG deities. It's an individual decision the deities make to invest their power in sponsoring paladins. Corellon feels that paladins have something to offer his church so he allows them. Not every god would. Make a special request if you want to play a Heretic of the Faith character.

Milil can have paladins too, as an aside.

Very_Svensk wrote:

And doesn't it also mean that we can also play paladins of chaotic good deities?

Nope. Only certain, specific deities that aren't LG are allowed to have paladins. As far as I know, those are Corellon, Helm, Kelemvor, Sune, and Mystra.

Elorathall wrote:

Milil can have paladins too, as an aside.

I don't believe Milil has paladins, though if you can cite a canon source saying he does, please do.

But according to FRCS deities that are 1-step from LG can sponsor paladins? And it's just the CG exceptions that are notable. So LN and NG deities should be fine. They just don't have special paladin orders like Helm and Mystra have.

I didn't see anything in the FRCS or F&P about all NG/LN deities allowing paladins, or for Milil allowing paladins. However, I do have to amend my above list for paladins of Lathander :oops:

Not to mention the somewhat amusing oxymorons this could result in:

Paladin of Eldath (NG), a being who by his oaths as a paladin cannot abide evil, yet also cannot kill evil beings, due to Eldath being a pacifist.

Paladin of Milil: Lawful? Yes. Follows a major god of bards? Yes. Can a paladin of Milil devote himself to bardcraft as a mean of spreading his god's word without pissing his god off? Nope.

Page 25 under Paladins:

FRCS wrote:

"All paladins of Faerun are devoted to a patron deity, chosen at the start of their career as paladins. Like paladins of other lands, the paladins of Faerun must be both lawful and good. The paladin's deity must be lawful good, lawful neutral or neutral good. For example, both Helm the Vigilant One (lawful neutral) and Chauntea the Earthmother (neutral good) have lawful good paladin worshipers. Sune, the goddess of beauty, love, and passion, is an exception to the alignment rule, for her followers include paladins even though her alignment is chaotic good."

Ah. Though I'm still of the thought that some LN/NG deities simply aren't philosophicly compatible with paladins, I'd say go by the FRCS entry.

I don't know if this is in too late but in reference to Elors post above there is a source in the forgotten realms wiki describing Milils order of Palis "The Harmonious Order"

Milil can have Paladins, yes. He's NG.

Sorry to be that guy but could't this piece of important info be placed under the class section in the rules and lore forum? I mean, It could be good for newcomer to know that 'Aha, you can't be a paladin of Chaotic Good Gods, But the exceptions to the rule is Y and Z"

It's noted under the deity system page that followers of Sune can be LG.

I make no secret of my intense and abiding disdain for the alignment system that 3rd Edition D&D gives us. There's really no reason for *almost* any goodly deity to refuse to support the sort of crusading do-gooders that people tend to think of paladins as being.

That being said (and back on the original topic), I think whoever's looking to play a paladin of Eilistraee could probably get just about everything they're hoping for out of a NG fighter/divine champion. (Likewise, btw, for most of the other deities mentioned: Lathander, Milil, Angharradh, Corellon, Sune, etc.)

Lathander has Paladins. LOTS OF PALADINS.

Milil and Lathander are both NG.

EDIT: Lathander has the Order of Aster.

i defiantly remember playing a paladin of lathander for quite some time!

Quote:

An order of paladins called the Harmonious Order venerates Milil. This group of personable and swaggering paladins encourages bards (whom they tolerate despite alignment differences) to accompany them to create ballads based on their exploits. Their role is to guard Milil’s churches and do good works in Milil’s name.

Sune has paladins to fulfil the concept of noble romanticism. The same sort of thing you find in the Holy Grail tales. Its a common fantasy theme, of a paladin fighting the concept of mortal temptation versus devout love of their god. With Sune, she embodies this theme in her portfolio. Usually, it involves a twist on the love triangle.

there are paladin varients in one of the forgotten realm books that suggest slaughter knights for NE characters and uses drow as for that example. as well as CG paladins of freedom. also corelleon has a sect of holy knights that are CG who you could also classify as his paladins.... its a prestige class... cant remeber wich books they are off by heart
unearthead arcana might be the paladin one
the corelleon one i cant remeber... maybe complete wild

We don't use UA Paladin Variants.

And you're thinking of Champion of Corellon Larethian.

Yeah, I think there's a lot of confusion about the paladin issue because people use the terms paladin and knight (order) interchangeably when they're anything but. The majority of members in all knightly orders in the Realms are probably fighters, with maybe clerics coming seconds and paladins only later (considering how much rarer they are in numbers).

Agreed, IronAngel.

A lot of the references to "knightly orders" come from the 2nd Edition deity books (*), one of which included an optional character class called "crusader", which was vaguely knight-ish, and which was alignment-restricted to non-neutrality (i.e., LG, CG, LE, or CE). I think much of the blurring of the distinction between paladins and mere knights can be attributed to the fact that we're still referring to those books, which were written under the assumption that the crusader class would be available.

Which, obviously, it isn't, or at least not directly. The Amia-tweaked Divine Champion prestige class is probably fairly close in flavor to what the crusader was intended to be, and I'm still of the opinion that whatever people are hoping to get out of a paladin of Milil or Sune or Corellon or whatever would probably be represented just as well (or better) by making a fighter/divine champ.

(* Faiths & Avatars, Demihuman Deities, Powers & Pantheons)

most knights would probably be fighter or bards i think, since singing songs and being all peoetic was seen as very very very knightly skills to posses

Amia is drowning in Paladins... why not allow them for Elistree? They exist for everything else. As to the, 'they're not like Knights', it's true but so so so few of the Amia Paladins are like Paladins anyway.

What happende to the 'Keep 10 Magic Items to use against heretics'(enough for a gearset) and give the rest to your Church?

Why are paladins shooting the breeze with evil folks and not harassing them to convert endlessly or smiting them?

Where's the self atonement(fall)? "My quest to destroy evil caused the destruction of an inocnet town... I'm becoming an ascietic for as long as my Lord deems necessary"?

I've not made a paladin beause I don't know the FR diety lore well enough and I don't think I would be allowed anywhere if I played one the way they acted in my PnP games of yore. There was talk of applying modern ideals to Amia altering it's conception; well by modern standerds a Paladin is a dangerous crazed fanatic. I'd love to see all of them, not just the awesome Eternal Order, treated as such.

I think you're vastly overstating the number of paladins, and the frequency of their "shooting the breeze with evil folks."

The 10 magic item restriction hasn't existed since 2nd Edition; Amia plays on 3rd Ed rules.

Lizzie wrote:

I think you're vastly overstating the number of paladins, and the frequency of their "shooting the breeze with evil folks."

The 10 magic item restriction hasn't existed since 2nd Edition; Amia plays on 3rd Ed rules.

I was being a bit melodramatic... I would still like to see some really hardcore Paladins though, I mean, there are quite alot of them. And they make common cause with other very easily... I was of the understanding that paladin ethos was 'the means NEVER justify the ends'

TheIncognitos wrote:

I was of the understanding that paladin ethos was 'the means NEVER justify the ends'

Let's not make this a paladin debate, but just to point this out: at no point in the core lore about the class is there mention of this. It's just a player interpretation that seems pretty frequent. Chivalry (which is completely context-dependant), Lawfulness, Goodness and following some kind of a code are the core requirements of paladinhood (in addition to serving a deity, of course). Everything else is ambigious and contingent.

"The ends never justify the means" is a simple concept that can be broadly applied; in this context I'm using it in relation to any type of fanaticism and it doesn't get much more fanatical then a paladin.

I would contest that although the exact ethos the paladin follows is muteable the concept of zero compromise and zero toerance is not. They are the envoy of their god... they can never be wrong.

Here is a thought on the matter, make being holy warrior Role Play not Roll Play. You may think the paladin is ideal for you mechanically but there is a reason we have the Divine Champion. The Paladin has long been an iconic figure in DND a LG champion of all that is ordered and right since way back in 2nd ed. That same restrictive code is a trade off for the powers of the paladin. There are many ways to be a holy warrior of your faith the Paladin is just one flavor.

Quoth the raven; "Numbers whore!"

He's right though... more crazed zealotry!

Seams kind of like trying to fit a square into a circle to me. I dont think it is quite as cookie cutter as a lot of people make it out to be. Just because on paper you find things that dont make sense, like Paladin of Eldath being passive, yet aggressive? Well obviously that paladin has to make nice with their deity, to do so there would have to be some middle ground that the deity is willing to accept, otherwise they would not have paladins at all. In the case of a Paladin of Eldath i would expect a live and let live passivity to 'evil' unless it directly threatens someone, in which case quick and utter destruction. As i recall Eldath does not stop followers from fighting to defend themselves, or others, right?

Then we have Paladin of Mystria, i believe their deal is defending arcanists. Well some are evil right? I would think this means that a Paladin of Mystria would be inclined to help any arcane caster or other follower of the faith, but should said caster summon a zombie? Well, the Zombie would get beat down hard. Now what happens between the Caster and the Paladin would depend on RP really, if the Caster is straight trying to provoke the Paladin by doing evil deeds in a hope that Mystria would be upset with said Paladin should it smite said caster.. well im inclined to think the gods are not idiots who would punish their paladin for doing the 'good' thing.

Just the way i see it, anyway. The Paladin class itself is a vague statement, the real "Paladin Oaths" would differ from one deity to another slightly. Overall id expect it was meant as a guide line, and that the nitty gritty details are supposed to be worked out by the DM and his or her group, leaving room for people to make stuff up within reason.

Elistraee Paladins

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