Below is a list of classes that are complete in the hak. They still require testing, tweaking, etc but I wanted to present these forward for discussion. I will be updating this list as it is expanded.
My first test of implementation was the Escape Artist, since it was designed to be simple to make and use no custom feats.
I am taking ideas from the PRCs you all have posted in the other thread. The first one to catch my eye was the Warsling Sniper suggestion which I have reworked into something a bit more viable, and universal for all races.
A fusion between the Eldritch Knight and Spellsword.
So... I got distracted and worked on the Calvary class. A lot of the stability issues with horses are gone with NWN EE so this is as good of a time as any to introduce some horse fun. The speed boost is quite powerful which is why I am inclined to outright ban archers shooting from their back. Monk/AAs can already be an issue with their ability to kit and shoot.
I do not think you should make a Racial PRC for all races. It takes away from the lore in the shape of culture, society and lifestyle of races.
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
We decided against racially-locked PRCs, as it's too limiting for other races who don't get fancy racial goodies. And rather than go through and make a special racially-locked PRC for every race... Well...
We want to make stuff for everyone.
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We decided against racially-locked PRCs, as it's too limiting for other races who don't get fancy racial goodies. And rather than go through and make a special racially-locked PRC for every race... Well...
We want to make stuff for everyone.
There is plenty of PRC that is not locked to race. This will take away so much from Arcane Archer, Dwarven Defender, Warslinger and so on. Now we will lose that touch of the "other" races having unique flavour in mechanics and class picks and have "smug" Humans able to do the same
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
Mixed feelings. Love the Warslinger. Hoped it would remain Halfling. I tried to emulate a Warslinger with existing classes but what you have presented is better. Are we opening up Arcane Archer and Dwarven Defender?
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Mixed feelings. Love the Warslinger. Hoped it would remain Halfling. I tried to emulate a Warslinger with existing classes but what you have presented is better. Are we opening up Arcane Archer and Dwarven Defender?
Not sure yet. We are having discussion about that. It would solve a lot of issues if we did though. Turning AA into a generalist archer type class would allow people to diversify.
It's a shadow dancer without hips, shadow daze, or a summon, but also has worse level breaks for feats. Could pack all of what you gave it into four levels and I still wouldn't take it.
Mixed feelings. Love the Warslinger. Hoped it would remain Halfling. I tried to emulate a Warslinger with existing classes but what you have presented is better. Are we opening up Arcane Archer and Dwarven Defender?
Not sure yet. We are having discussion about that. It would solve a lot of issues if we did though. Turning AA into a generalist archer type class would allow people to diversify.
Yar, we're still discussing existing racially-locked PRCs!
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Login: The Copper Queen Cromlech - The Best Copper This Side of Ruathym Zelly Cys'dina - The Wounded Soul, Also Merchant Aelynthi Nor'alei - The Bubbly Winged Elf
Mixed feelings. Love the Warslinger. Hoped it would remain Halfling. I tried to emulate a Warslinger with existing classes but what you have presented is better. Are we opening up Arcane Archer and Dwarven Defender?
Not sure yet. We are having discussion about that. It would solve a lot of issues if we did though. Turning AA into a generalist archer type class would allow people to diversify.
Yar, we're still discussing existing racially-locked PRCs!
Pretty please, do not take away more from the Elf and Dwarf RP
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
Yeah I don't think the Escape Artist would be an all-too-useful addition.
It'd just be used as a stepping stone for Epic Dodge, and it does so far worse than SD
One could argue that it doesn't need Mobility but...
Let us be real here, if you already get dodge, i'd get Mobility as well for HiPS in 100% of the cases.
EDIT: Seems I misunderstood the point. I guess one could give the Escape Artist some kind of Gimmick to make it worthwhile. Permanent Freedom of Movement on Level 10 comes to mind.
I also realised that it /MIGHT/ be even worth for some builds to dip 1 level into it for Uncanny Dodge / Use it as a Tumbledump.
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Last edited by freaxxshow1338 on Sun, Apr 07 2019, 21:31 PM, edited 2 times in total.
Yeah I don't think the Escape Artist would be an all-too-useful addition.
It'd just be used as a stepping stone for Epic Dodge, and it does so far worse than SD
One could argue that it doesn't need Mobility but...
Let us be real here, if you already get dodge, i'd get Mobility as well for HiPS in 100% of the cases.
See it as an RP thing, not everything need to be an SD.
Kiasyd wrote:
Budly wrote:
Pretty please, do not take away more from the Elf and Dwarf RP
I think this would be more opening things up for others to join in to that roleplay than it would be to detract from them.
To me not everything need to be inclusive. If we make AA and DwD "open to all", it is taking away from the prestige of the races and taking away a unique PrC. I still think others can for example be included in the RP of Sylv as an AA or Tetrik as a DwD (Even if he is borderline as a Duergar!) but not the class itself being used by them. I won't linger on the topic but I do not think we should make it viable for all races. Cause it will water down the unique traits and make it less Dwarven and Elven if any races can just be as good if not better cause they get more fiting racial bonuses.
If these end up for all races, I really do hope they are not the same thing icly and in the lore. But I really hope they won't. If one want to be Dwarven or a Elven prestige class? Then play an Elf or a Dwarf.
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
Joined: 22 Jul 2015 Location: Lincolnshire, United Kingdom
Maverick00053 wrote:
maglorine wrote:
Mixed feelings. Love the Warslinger. Hoped it would remain Halfling. I tried to emulate a Warslinger with existing classes but what you have presented is better. Are we opening up Arcane Archer and Dwarven Defender?
Not sure yet. We are having discussion about that. It would solve a lot of issues if we did though. Turning AA into a generalist archer type class would allow people to diversify.
Or just make a generalist archer Prc rather than cutting something out of the elven cultural rp. As someone who plays a ranger/MS archer i'd love more archer related stuff, just not at the expense of diluting a reason to play an elf.
Warslinger has always seemed a halfling niche thing, in fact people who play halflings have wanted it for a long time.
_________________ When it rains, look for rainbows. When it's dark, look for stars.
Last edited by walnutboy on Sun, Apr 07 2019, 21:35 PM, edited 1 time in total.
I agree Escape Artist could use more love so that it could shine and be a desriable PrC for it's own merits. Congrats on it though, being the spearhead of our new EE Class movements.
Warslinger is wonderful. I can see making one, and kinda want to to try it out. I like that it is open to non-halfling races.
I also think opening up AA and DwD to other races would be a good step forward for diverse characters as well.
Thank you Mav for the awesome work you've put into this!
_________________ I play...
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I agree Escape Artist could use more love so that it could shine and be a desriable PrC for it's own merits. Congrats on it though, being the spearhead of our new EE Class movements.
Warslinger is wonderful. I can see making one, and kinda want to to try it out. I like that it is open to non-halfling races.
I also think opening up AA and DwD to other races would be a good step forward for diverse characters as well.
Thank you Mav for the awesome work you've put into this!
If everything is open to everyone, we remove the uniqueness of races and cultures.
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
Yes. Please, anything Archer-y that isn't an Arcane Archer and is actually worth looking at for more than 10 minutes before realising it is complete trash and unplayable!
Yes. Please, anything Archer-y that isn't an Arcane Archer and is actually worth looking at for more than 10 minutes before realising it is complete trash and unplayable!
Then make it a thing of its own. There is other archer PRCs out there. If everyone runs around doing Arcane Archery its a bit...well, watering down on the Elves.
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
Joined: 26 May 2006 Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
I see the appeal in opening up the classes. Sure, I'd love to see Eyes of Gruumsh, Drow Judicators and every other class in the Drow of the Underdark supplement, but I'll take what I can get.
Yes. Please, anything Archer-y that isn't an Arcane Archer and is actually worth looking at for more than 10 minutes before realising it is complete trash and unplayable!
Then make it a thing of its own. There is other archer PRCs out there. If everyone runs around doing Arcane Archery its a bit...well, watering down on the Elves.
The idea on our end is to avoid making fifty different PRCs that are functionally the same as already existing PRCs, purely because of the racial locks.
But it's still something to discuss! I mean, even if the classes were "unlocked" you can still have the Arcane Archer RP of that particular style of magic/bow use being passed down by your ancestors. There's no real IC reason that other races can't learn a fancy magical archer style that makes them not suck horribly, too. But that's just my personal opinion.
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Login: The Copper Queen Cromlech - The Best Copper This Side of Ruathym Zelly Cys'dina - The Wounded Soul, Also Merchant Aelynthi Nor'alei - The Bubbly Winged Elf
Yes. Please, anything Archer-y that isn't an Arcane Archer and is actually worth looking at for more than 10 minutes before realising it is complete trash and unplayable!
Then make it a thing of its own. There is other archer PRCs out there. If everyone runs around doing Arcane Archery its a bit...well, watering down on the Elves.
The idea on our end is to avoid making fifty different PRCs that are functionally the same as already existing PRCs, purely because of the racial locks.
But it's still something to discuss! I mean, even if the classes were "unlocked" you can still have the Arcane Archer RP of that particular style of magic/bow use being passed down by your ancestors. There's no real IC reason that other races can't learn a fancy magical archer style that makes them not suck horribly, too. But that's just my personal opinion.
There is lore reasons. There is other "fancy arts" but no one should be an Arcane Archer as a non Elf just like a DwD non Dwarf is also wrong.
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
Its ab progression is set up for 2/3 so that is an error.
It definitely needs more.
Monk saves isnt a bad idea.
Giving access to impro invis through a feat and a few more AC was what came to mind. I just don't want to go too far.
Imp Invis is pretty available to anyone.
Let me throw this out to you - what about the Self Concealment feats? It's like much of the concealment you get from Imp Inv, Displacement, Ghostly and Ethereal Visage, etc with one plus - It can't be dispelled. To me it's like the PrC gains the ability to focus on taking cover in any situation. Behind a rock, tree, enemy, friend, summon, whatnot. These feats are virtually impossible to get in game due to the requirements so it would be unique and perhaps give the class a niche. They are used on summons, so it just comes down to balance.
This is a great initiative btw. So much promise.
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Jes wrote:
Budly wrote:
freaxxshow1338 wrote:
On the Archer thing:
Yes. Please, anything Archer-y that isn't an Arcane Archer and is actually worth looking at for more than 10 minutes before realising it is complete trash and unplayable!
Then make it a thing of its own. There is other archer PRCs out there. If everyone runs around doing Arcane Archery its a bit...well, watering down on the Elves.
The idea on our end is to avoid making fifty different PRCs that are functionally the same as already existing PRCs, purely because of the racial locks.
But it's still something to discuss! I mean, even if the classes were "unlocked" you can still have the Arcane Archer RP of that particular style of magic/bow use being passed down by your ancestors. There's no real IC reason that other races can't learn a fancy magical archer style that makes them not suck horribly, too. But that's just my personal opinion.
As someone who played an archer i'd rather play an archer without the 'magic' assigned to it. While i see the appeal, for me personally playing a magical archer is way different than playing a plain old archer. Not every archer is a magical one and nor should it be forced to just to fit a slot. It's like having a fighter being a knight without becoming a paladin. I get what you mean by RPing AA's differently but honestly, the spells are mechanically the same and no matter which way you try to RP it you are just making everyone the same... which is a great shame. Part of the love and the diversity in a world comes from certain classes only playable as certain races. Yep, there will be an argument about 'you still can, just everyone can' but that rather takes the romance out of the play i think, like D&D but skills, feats and such doesn't matter as in the end we just balance everyone out so there is nothing unique.
_________________ When it rains, look for rainbows. When it's dark, look for stars.
Craft Survival Gear: Master Scout can craft various tools and items for a gold cost. The items assist in ambushing enemies and in survivability. Through levels, more items become available for crafting. Uncanny Dodge I: As per default feat.
Level 3:
Battle Fortitude: Master Scout can call on his hardiness and knowledge and receive +1 to all saves per Master Scout level, for 1 hour per Master Scout level. Nature Sense: As per default feat.
Freedom for free? Isn't that bit powerful? Makes lot of items and spells useless.
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
If we opened up the classes they would be renamed and descriptions changed. They wouldnt be AA or DwD anymore lorewise.
This, essentially.
RP-wise, I wouldn't have a problem with elves treating it like their racial Art, as they have been. They can call it Arcane Archery IC still, and continue with the RP of learning it through Solonor or Selvetarm or however you've been RP'ing it.
But there's absolutely no reason any other racial type or person can't learn how to do essentially the exact same thing through other means.
Example:
Elf takes new Super Archer PrC, RP's that it's learned from his elven parents and he calls it Arcane Archery IC.
Human takes new Super Archer PrC, RP's learning it from an old Ranger friend of the family, and he calls himself a Megasniper.
Gnome takes new Super Archer PrC, RP's learning it from books, and calls himself a Cheesearrow Specialist.
It expands the RP possibilities, and doesn't restrict proper archery only to elves, when it's entirely possible for other races to learn how to wield a bow with extreme skill and precision. After all, not all Shifters learn/utilize their skills the same way. Not all Dragon Disciples perform rituals to achieve the same effect as other disciples. It's the same theory, but applied to other prestige classes to open up RP possibilities and paths.
That's my take on how that works, at least. But that's just an idea. I can still see the benefit in just adding a non-arcane version (though it is more work and I like simplifying some things). I bet plenty of elves would be interested in that sort of class, too. I just personally always thought racial-locked PrCs were weird. xD
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Jes wrote:
Maverick00053 wrote:
If we opened up the classes they would be renamed and descriptions changed. They wouldnt be AA or DwD anymore lorewise.
This, essentially.
RP-wise, I wouldn't have a problem with elves treating it like their racial Art, as they have been. They can call it Arcane Archery IC still, and continue with the RP of learning it through Solonor or Selvetarm or however you've been RP'ing it.
But there's absolutely no reason any other racial type or person can't learn how to do essentially the exact same thing through other means.
Example:
Elf takes new Super Archer PrC, RP's that it's learned from his elven parents and he calls it Arcane Archery IC.
Human takes new Super Archer PrC, RP's learning it from an old Ranger friend of the family, and he calls himself a Megasniper.
Gnome takes new Super Archer PrC, RP's learning it from books, and calls himself a Cheesearrow Specialist.
It expands the RP possibilities, and doesn't restrict proper archery only to elves, when it's entirely possible for other races to learn how to wield a bow with extreme skill and precision. After all, not all Shifters learn/utilize their skills the same way. Not all Dragon Disciples perform rituals to achieve the same effect as other disciples. It's the same theory, but applied to other prestige classes to open up RP possibilities and paths.
That's my take on how that works, at least. But that's just an idea. I can still see the benefit in just adding a non-arcane version (though it is more work and I like simplifying some things). I bet plenty of elves would be interested in that sort of class, too. I just personally always thought racial-locked PrCs were weird. xD
Don't get me wrong, i see it but... making things simple isn't always the best course. You dumb things down too much and it literally becomes cheese to most people, classes and races are made ultimately irrelevant! You end up loosing the core of what the world, the game is based on. I also dislike the idea that, in order for a class or person to be better at something... there has to be a magical component! To poke a lion, i have always found Areliths approach to the ranger paths more appealing as it gives you the stronger archer build, but without having to take up the magic flare of the AA to do it.
_________________ When it rains, look for rainbows. When it's dark, look for stars.
Freedom for free? Isn't that bit powerful? Makes lot of items and spells useless.
Master Scout already gets it in 5 levels, so its a thing and really for the trade off in 10 levels, likely not that OP should it come to pass.
It's the harper scout right? I do not get Amias fascination in balancing like a MMO, removing classes, adding things like Freedom and such. Oh well.
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
Escape Artists needs extreme changes to make it worth taking. The only viable build I see for Escape Artist even with Self Conceal V added is 16 rogye 10 EA fighter 4, using the rogue feats for crippling strike and 2 free epic feats instead of ED pre reqs. I still don't consider that very good over going say 19 rogue 6 fighter 5 SD or Master Scout. I'd sooner see Escape Artist turned into something like Factotum, where it gets basically every skill as a class skill, 10 skill points a level, things focused on int and skills, but no major class bonuses in the first 2-3 levels to dissuade it from being the best skill dump class in the game. As it sits right now, Escape Artist doesn't have much going for it at all. Even with some intense feat addition, it still struggles to give anything that SD, monk, rogue, and assassin don't already give along with extreme utility and offensive options.
Warslinger is pretty decent. Don't forget to add Great Dex and Epic Weapon Focus Sling to the bonus feat list. If you wanted to add some oomph to them, you could allow them to get Overwhelming Critical without the other feat and STR investment. I'd probably also add Armor Skin to them. It could probably afford to have some actual ability beyond just being a 5 level class that makes OK ammo and is a big bag of free ranged feats.
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Last edited by TormakSaber on Sun, Apr 07 2019, 23:58 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Why is it good? It renders impopular races even less pickable, liek Dwarves if DwD gets a buff but all can take it. It also undermines lore, culture, history and society of said races by opening them up. Mechanics should not triumph over such parts on a persistent roleplay server.
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
Joined: 22 Jul 2015 Location: Lincolnshire, United Kingdom
TormakSaber wrote:
Warslinger is pretty decent. Don't forget to add Great Dex and Epic Weapon Focus Sling to the bonus feat list. If you wanted to add some oomph to them, you could allow them to get Overwhelming Critical without the other feat and STR investment. I'd probably also add Armor Skin to them. It could probably afford to have some actual ability beyond just being a 5 level class that makes OK ammo and is a big bag of free ranged feats.
Actually, looking at the Warslinger couldn't such be adapted for an archer PrC as well? 5 levels of something that gives oomph to a bow user that isn't magically based like an AA would certainly seem to round out a more mundane based archer if balanced right.
_________________ When it rains, look for rainbows. When it's dark, look for stars.
Yes it can but I don't want an AA to double dip and be even more ridiculous. So if we go that route I'll probably restrict it to non elves only.
How to explain that ICLy? And would it be possible to pick one over the other as an Elf? To not do the Arcane archery icly?
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
Mav has it exactly right. You cannot use the Warsling PrC as a "template" for something similar in Bow precisely because of the existence of the Arcane Archer class.
On the other hand, you could use it as a template for pretty much any other ranged weapon. Darts? Crossbows? Anything. Ranged combat, aside from Arcane Archer and the Longbow, is inferior to melee.
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