AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Palemaster FAQ

Like the New FAQ, but specifically about Palemaster-related Lore/Technical/Mechanical/Rules questions.

If you've found yourself wondering about "_____" then ask it here. If possible, tag your question with something like [Technical] for purely OOC things or [Lore] or something else that sounds appropriate for IG things. If you're not sure what tag it might have because it's a complex question, don't worry about it.

Also use this thread for asking for clarification, if you seen something ruled different ways and want to know which one to believe.

I will be moderating this topic and will gleefully remove spam, nonsense questions, and split out any discussions that occur.

This is strictly for questions.

[Lore] Is the skeletal arm of a Palemaster bound to originate from an undead?

[Lore] Are there any other changes to the physique of a Palemaster except the arm graft?

[Lore] Is it possible for a Palemaster to hide that he is a Palemaster?

[Lore] How does one actually become a Palemaster?

[Technical] May I request a different, more ghoulish (but not undead) head for my Palemaster?

[Technical] May I request more ghoulish skin color for my Palemaster?

[general] is it still the case, as was ruled in the past, that the natural ac bonus palemasters get constitutes a reveal of the palemasters nature, if his skin is revealed?

[Lore] Can casting Turn Undead cause a Pale Master's arm to essentially seizure?

[Lore] What does obtaining 10 PM levels represent IC?

[Lore] What is the IC explanation for level 10 PM immunities?

[Mechanical/Lore] How close are palemasters to pure undead for the purposes of abilities that affect only the latter? If my ranger has favored enemy: undead, am I significantly better at tracking and brow-beating a 10PM character, even though their creature type is technically unchanged?

[Lore] Is the only reason someone becomes a pale master to become an undead creature? Could they choose the path to become a better intermediary for undead matters, to extend their lifespan, become better necromancers, or improve their ability to destroy undead, among other possibilities?

[Lore] Do these alternate lines of reasoning change how the rituals involved are structured?

[Lore] Does the Undead Graft have to be an arm? I always assumed it could replace any body part, and could be from any undead creature.

[Lore] For that matter, does being a pale master actually improve how long you live, or do you have to become a full lich/what-have-you?

[Lore] Does a max-level pale master have an easier time becoming a lich?

[Rules/Mechanical] Can a Pale Master use their special arm abilities if the arm is somehow covered up?

[Technical] Its possible to mechanically ensure the arm isnt covered by checking if the character is wearing armor and that his arm armor part numbers are numbers that are considered visible by a predefined list.

Since this initiative seems to have died away I will attempt to revitalize it. Last year at some point LetumLux approached me asking of me to answer this FAQ to the best of my ability, with my personal take on the Pale Master prestige class. Like in the Palemasters on Amia thread, I will make a note that this is not canon lore (sadly) and not mandatory. It is just the way some of us (more and more I hope) consider to be appropriate for Palemasters. However, some of the things in this FAQ are canon lore! Here we go then..

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Lore

Is the skeletal arm of a Palemaster bound to originate from an undead?
Absolutely. Pale Master prestige class entirely revolves around Undead. There are no alternatives to this. The acquirement of an undead arm is one of the few canon lore facts we have available. To quote Libris Mortis: Undead Graft (Su): At 6th level, a pale master gives in to terrible necrophiliac urges. He cuts off his arm and replaces it with an undead prosthetic, which may be skeletal in form or preserved flesh stitched in place like that of a flesh golem.

Lore

Are there any other changes to the physique of a Palemaster except the arm graft?
Yes. The path of a Palemaster consists of the rituals which gradually push Palemaster closer and closer to an undead. With his first ritual (Bone Skin) the hue of his skin may take a sickly green, pale, or bleached bone color. Regardless of the exact tone it will not appear to be a normal skin. With the second ritual a Palemaster will, through necromancy, replace his eye with one capable of seeing in mundane darkness. This will result in his face becoming ghastly, or very creepy at least, as the eye is grafted. As the Palemaster proceeds on his path, the stench of rot or embalming fluid might follow him, a swarm of flies might be attracted, his voice could become eerie, the hair might go pale or start falling off, etc. A Palemaster could even have a creepy aura about him, akin to that of the Blackguard, explained by the ungodly amounts of negative energy he has been exposed to. The animals could shun a Palemaster, and the children might start crying for no apparent reason. Also a Palemaster’s reproductive organs are likely to become barren. One way or another, even an uneducated man could with certainty tell a difference between a Palemaster and a non-Palemaster.

Lore

Is it possible for a Palemaster to hide that he is a Palemaster?
With sufficient clothing, a lot of makeup, wigs, a strong parfume, etc – yes it is possible. At the first glance a Palemaster may appear to be a (somewhat) regular member of the society, perhaps slightly odd, ugly, or creepy. But should one become suspicious, the subterfuge will not last for long. That being said, one does not become a Palemaster to blend in with the society. A Palemaster is fully aware of the changes he is facing, as well as the consequences, and performs them willingly. Palemastery cannot be forced, or be the result of an accident!

Lore

How does one actually become a Palemaster?
The candidate must have spent three or more days locked in a tomb with animated undead. This contact may be peaceful or violent. A character who is slain by the undead during this period, and later raised still meets the requirement. A Palemaster must be able to cast arcane spells of the 3rd circle or higher. The act of becoming a Palemaster is completed with the performance of the first ritual – Bone Skin (taking the first level).

Lore

Can casting Turn Undead cause a Pale Master's arm to seize, become uncontrollable, be affected by Turn Undead and similar"?
No. Though a Palemaster’s arm has undead origins, it is an integral part of the Palemaster, and therefore it is unaffected as long as the Palemaster is not an undead too. Turn undead affects undead. A Palemaster mortal is still a mortal, in spite of all the grafts, and is therefore unaffected by Turn Undead.

Lore

What does obtaining 10 PM levels represent IC?
It represents the final stage of Palemastery. A moment when the Palemaster becomes the master of his trade. It represents going to truly great lengths to become as close as possible to the undead. A Palemaster of the 10th level went through unbearable changes and sacrifices, both physical and mental, and is living proof that some people shall sacrifice anything in order to get everything.

Lore

What is the IC explanation for level 10 PM immunities?
The IC explanation for level 10 Palemaster immunities is performance of the final ritual of Palemastery. As the exact method is not enforced, the level 10 PM immunities can be explained with a variety of things. According to canon lore (Libris Mortis) the body of a Palemaster becomes partly mummified, so this approach may be taken. A character may perform a powerful ritual of mummification, and through the dark energy of necromancy attain the powers bestowed to a Palemaster of the 10th level. This may have a number of alternatives, in accordance with your imagination, but like all the other Palemaster-related rituals, necromancy and undead are essential.

Lore

Is the only reason someone becomes a pale master to become an undead creature?Could they choose the path to become a better intermediary for undead matters, to extend their lifespan, become better necromancers, or improve their ability to destroy undead, among other possibilities?
a) Becoming a Palemaster for the purpose of understanding the undead better could be a strong motive, for it would be based on a natural Palemaster’s fascination of undeath.
b) No. Palemastery itself does not extend one’s lifespan when it comes to aging.
c) Yes. Palemasters make the same progress in Necromancy a regular spellcaster does, except a Palemaster has a wider, and more powerful variety of undead at his disposal, as well as several unique abilities. The path of Palemastery may definitely help one become a better Necromancer, if this is intended.
d) While a Palemaster is rather good at commanding the undead, his capabilities to destroy the undead are second to many other classes and prestige classes. It is unheard of that someone became a Palemaster to destroy the undead.

Lore

Do these alternate lines of reasoning change how the rituals involved are structured?
Rituals may be approached with different methods. However, what is mutual for all the rituals is that they involve the undead, and dark necromancy. The core is always the same. Undeath is the key feature for a Palemaster.

Lore

Does the Undead Graft have to be an arm? I always assumed it could replace any body part, and could be from any undead creature.
Yes, it has to be an arm. This is in accordance with the canon lore. Palemaster’s arm is the most prominent feature of a Palemaster. Grafting of the arm is a necessity. Once the arm graft is completed, the other body parts may be grafted as well.

Lore

For that matter, does being a pale master actually improve how long you live, or do you have to become a full lich/what-have-you?
No, Palemastery does not extend one’s lifespan. This is possible through other necromancy-related methods. To achieve biological immortality through undeath is possible only through becoming a full undead.

Lore

Does a max-level pale master have an easier time becoming a lich?
Yes, and no. A palemaster of any level is closer to the undead than a non-palemaster. While being as close to an undead as a mortal can get, a Palemaster is still a mortal being. Transition from a mortal being into an undead is a change of epic proportions. Most of the mortals, if rushed into undeath, would find their new unlife unbearable. They would never be able to taste the wine or water, never again would they enjoy the company of the opposite sex, they would spend every moment fully awake, never needing to sit down and rest for a while, or take a nap, or dream. These drastic changes would push most of the mortals over the edge straight into the maws of insanity. A Palemaster, having a better insight into the undead would certainly have an easier time making this transition. So psychologically a Palemaster would indeed have a somewhat easier time becoming a lich (or any other type of undead). However, this does not come on its own. In order to remove himself from his humanity as much as possible, and prepare for ascension into undeath, many Palemasters will give up on all the mortal pleasures, and slowly get accustomed to existing without them. Becoming a full undead, is, however, a ritual of its own and it is not directly related to the art of Palemastery. In that sense, a Palemaster would need to spend as much time studying, as a non-Palemaster would, to become a lich (or any other undead).

Mechanical/Lore :?:

How close are palemasters to pure undead for the purposes of abilities that affect only the latter? If my ranger has favored enemy: undead, am I significantly better at tracking and brow-beating a 10PM character, even though their creature type is technically unchanged?
They are rather close in certain aspects (the immunities). However, as the Palemaster still requires sleep and basic sustenanace, it functions very differently when compared to an undead. A ranger with favored enemy: undead would naturally have a better chance of defeating a Palemaster’s horde of undead, but as for the Palemaster itself, the answer is no. A Palemaster does not become an undead by default, and therefore a ranger has no significant advantage.

Rules/Mechanical :?:

Can a Pale Master use their special arm abilities if the arm is somehow covered up?
Yes. There are no known isolators for the Palemaster’s arm abilities. Direct contact of the arm with the skin of the creature affected is not required. If the glove would somehow prevent a Palemaster from delivering his touch attack, then a metal/leather armor of his victim would do the same.

Technical :?:

May I request a different, more ghoulish (but not undead) head for my Palemaster?
Yes. You are, in the matter of a fact, encouraged to do so. The physique of a Palemasters shifts as he levels. His hair might start falling off, or going pale, his teeth might start decaying, his eyes, and face could take a ghoulish appearance. A Palemaster is a twisted, grizzly version of his previous self.

Technical :?:

May I request more ghoulish skin color for my Palemaster?
Yes. You are, in the matter of a fact, supposed to do so. The skin of the Palemaster goes through drastic changes. Having a natural skin does not represent Bone Skin feat in any fashion.

General :?:

Is it still the case, as was ruled in the past, that the natural ac bonus palemasters get constitutes a reveal of the palemasters nature, if his skin is revealed?
A mere glance at the skin of a Palemaster would not immediately reveal its nature, for we dwell in a world where many oddly colored races roam. A Palemaster could have the same hue of the skin as an Earth Genasi, for instance. So while the skin of the Palemasters is without exception oddly colored due to his first ritual (Bone Skin), only a very experienced eye would be able to immediately tell whether someone is a Palemaster or not.

[General/Technical]: My character may end up having a sum total of total caster levels that doesn't meet the requirements for Winter Wight. However, he/she may have 18 levels of Pale Master. Given this dedication to the class, are there any precidents for replacing the Greater Mummy summon, with a slightly more powerful creature - but nothing so powerful as the Winter Wight if you have over 16 levels of Palemaster?

E.g: My own character will be missing the requirements for Winter Wight, by one level. Though I don't hold any frustration to this in any way, as he's a character not a power build, he'll clearly be experimenting with creating the most powerful/useful servants he can.

Last edited by Dead on Thu, Jan 07 2016, 21:09 PM, edited 2 times in total.

General/Technical :?:

My character may end up having a sum total of total caster levels that doesn't meet the requirements for Winter Wight. However, he/she may have 18 levels of Pale Master. Given this dedication to the class, are there any precidents for replacing the Greater Mummy summon, with a slightly more powerful creature - but nothing so powerful as the Winter Wight if you have over 16 levels of Palemaster?
Custom summons are not allowed, that's a server policy.

Are you sure you won't meet the requirements? Because 19 Palemaster levels are not the requirement. 32 Caster levels are. Palemaster levels + Caster Levels + 3

I am 2 Rogue, 18 PM, 10 Wizard + 3 from being awesome. 31 Caster levels exactly for summoning undead. The two rogue for RP reasons, as having bluff for a character trying to be subversive is... kinda required. I couldn't justify him starting as Wizard either, as he'd be an expert starting as a commoner in Cordor.

Quote:

CL 32+ : Winterwight

In game terms, he'd probably be Expert 2, 18 PM, 10 Wizard - but as expert doesn't exist for Amia, rogue made sense as a skill based class.

If I can't get a custom summon, which I can completely understand. I guess I'll save up the ol' DC's and try to reskin the Greater Mummy into something more fitting to the character. I'll be taking Epic Mummy Dust anyway!
Anyway, this is alarmingly off topic, thanks for clearing that up regardless.

[Mechanical/Lore]If lvl 10 of PM is mastery. What are epic levels? How to look at obtaining epic spells via PM epic lvls?
[Lore] Are there any specific gods which are close to palemasters?

Last edited by Dead on Fri, Jan 08 2016, 18:25 PM, edited 3 times in total.

Mechanical/Lore :?:

If lvl 10 of PM is mastery, what are epic levels? How to look at obtaining epic spells via PM epic lvls?
According to nwnwiki: "Pale masters can take epic spells at level 15, regardless of spell casting ability, provided they meet the spellcraft requirements. The duration of the spells chosen while leveling as a pale master will be based on pale master levels." Technically every prestige class becomes epic by taking more than 10 levels. Obtaining epic spells for a palemaster works the same as obtaining them for a non-palemaster. Both require the ability to cast level 9 (wiz/sorc) or level 6 (bard) spells and both require a deep and thorough understanding of how magic works. "Epic spells represent the pinnacle of spellcasting prowess. Epic spellcasters begin to understand how magic really works. Through application of formidable intellect, vast wisdom, or sheer force of personality, a spellcaster can manipulate cosmic and personal energy directly. Epic spells are neither considered arcane, nor divine, thus all spellcasting classes capable of casting ninth level spells can learn how to cast them." Therefore a palemaster of 15 levels and more can take epic spells as long as he is able to cast level 9 spells if he is a wizard/sorcerer, or if he is able to cast level 6 spells if he is a bard. This works only for an arcane spellcaster as Palemaster is an arcane Prestige Class.

Lore

Are there any specific gods which are close to palemasters?
The obvious choices would be gods with undeath domain like Velsharoon, Falazure, Kiaransalee, Orcus, etc. As a non-divine Prestige Class a Palemaster can worship any god or goddess he deems fit, under condition that the creed of the god would not go against undeath and taking the alignment restriction into consideration. A Palemaster must be non-good so a deity itself must be willing to accept a Palemaster as faithful.

Dead wrote:

Mechanical/Lore:?: If lvl 10 of PM is mastery, what are epic levels? How to look at obtaining epic spells via PM epic lvls?
According to nwnwiki: "Pale masters can take epic spells at level 15, regardless of spell casting ability, provided they meet the spellcraft requirements. The duration of the spells chosen while leveling as a pale master will be based on pale master levels." Technically every prestige class becomes epic by taking more than 10 levels. Obtaining epic spells for a palemaster works the same as obtaining them for a non-palemaster. Both require the ability to cast level 9 spells and both require a deep and thorough understanding of how magic works. "Epic spells represent the pinnacle of spellcasting prowess. Epic spellcasters begin to understand how magic really works. Through application of formidable intellect, vast wisdom, or sheer force of personality, a spellcaster can manipulate cosmic and personal energy directly. Epic spells are neither considered arcane, nor divine, thus all spellcasting classes capable of casting ninth level spells can learn how to cast them." Therefore a palemaster of 15 levels and more can take epic spells as long as he is able to cast level 9 spells. This works only for an arcane spellcaster as Palemaster is an arcane Prestige Class.

Lore:?: Are there any specific gods which are close to palemasters?
The obvious choices would be gods with undeath domain like Velsharoon, Falazure, Kiaransalee, Orcus, etc. As a non-divine Prestige Class a Palemaster can worship any god or goddess he deems fit, under condition that the creed of the god would not go against undeath and taking the alignment restriction into consideration. A Palemaster must be non-good so a deity itself must be willing to accept a Palemaster as faithful.

Mechically level 9 spells is not a requirement. Only 20 spell casting attribute and the appropriate spellcraft skill rank.

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Quote:

Dead wrote: Are Epic Spells not avalible or not allowed (or both) for characters who mechanically could take them, but don't have ability to cast lvl 9 arcane spells? Say if one has 15 wizard levels + PM level?

DerkDerkistan wrote: You won't be able to cast the epic spells without access to level 9 spells.

Dead wrote: This is enforced mechnically or by the rules?

PaladinOfSune wrote: I don't see how this difference affects you since either way you're not going to be doing it, but it's enforced mechanically.

Which is absolutely natural. One cannot comprehend an Epic Spell without the ability to comprehend every circle of his spellcasting class. But yes, I should re-clarify then. It's not the ability to cast level 9 spells, it is the ability to cast the highest possible level of spells for an arcane class. Which is level 9 spells for wizards and sorcerers and level 6 spells for Bards. I edited it. Thanks for the catch Mav.

Can I please have this moved to Lore? GD buries threads way too fast. Thanks.

If this information can be verified/approved by the Team, then it's destined to go into the Information section at the top of the forum, actually! That's where all of the class pages are going to end up, including the Palemaster stuff.

[Lore] Are "The Rituals" as taught in Tarkuul the only way to become a Palemaster?

Note that this is a Lore question. Mechanically, there obviously is the alternative of taking PM levels and not RPing the rituals at all. The question is whether other, equally valid approaches exist to the grafting, and if so, if they can be invented by players at a whim or if this is request-worthy.

Last edited by Dead on Wed, Jan 20 2016, 20:44 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Lore Are "The Rituals" as taught in Tarkuul the only way to become a Palemaster?
Rituals as taught in Tarkuul are not the only way to become a Palemaster. They are a consisted of premade rituals which are applied to characters who come to Tarkuul seeking assistance. Tarkuul does not have the monopoly over the rites of Palemastery, but the method taught in Tarkuul is at the moment, the most character-enriching set of rituals available due to its diversity, tradition and character interaction which opens a whole new set of options. Invention of new rituals is entirely possible, under general guidelines. As a matter of fact, some of the rituals taught in Tarkuul require of a character to discover his own ritual.

Quote:

ut the method taught in Tarkuul is at the moment, the most character-enriching set of rituals available due to its diversity, tradition and character interaction which opens a whole new set of options

[Citation needed]

This stuff shouldn't be presented as the only way... and I say this as the guy who is the baseline for 905 of the stuff used today. I just made all my shit up as Reinard. That's what the takeaway here should be: The class simply provides a framework for the character and player to be creative, not to linearly define what a Palemaster MUST do or be labelled a "bad RPer".

That is exactly what I said.

Dead wrote:

Can I please have this moved to Lore? GD buries threads way too fast. Thanks.

[Lore] Does a graft feel as natural and easy to conrol as a real, or do you actually have to get used to it? The mohrgs tongue on page 80 Libris Mortis comes to mind as the best example, though most grafts would need getting used to IRL, it would be difficult talking with a tongue that big.

Lore Does a graft feel as natural and easy to conrol as a real, or do you actually have to get used to it? The mohrgs tongue on page 80 Libris Mortis comes to mind as the best example, though most grafts would need getting used to IRL, it would be difficult talking with a tongue that big.
Immediately upon completion of a ritual the graft becomes an integral, intrinsic part of a Palemaster's body, so there is no need for a necromancer to get used to it, be it a tongue, an eye, or an arm. There could be other consequences, however. For instance in case of a Mohrg's tongue graft, your Palemaster is most likely to suffer from ageusia - the loss of taste functions of the tongue, but for the purposes of using the tongue to lash out at his enemies, he should have no troubles whatsoever. For the purposes of talking, it is very unlikely that a Palemaster could speak without a speech impediment of some sort.

How would partly mummification be seen? Are there several ways of doing this?

Since this is not mandatory, my PM does not have to be smelly pile of rotten meat?

At bare minimum, the only part you are forced to roleplay is the bone arm itself. The rest is flavour, though it's looked highly upon if you did RP out additional effects.

Ulir wrote:

How would partly mummification be seen? Are there several ways of doing this?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mummify

While exact form of mummification is open to interpretation, some desiccation is definitely in order.

Nalkanar wrote:

Since this is not mandatory, my PM does not have to be smelly pile of rotten meat?

In the class description does not appear to be any indication of necessity for rotten flesh or strong-smelling properties altogether. Suggested "undead prosthetics" - skeletal & flesh golem arms - possess no flesh to be rotten, or are recovered from specifically "not significantly decayed" corpse.

Therefore, unless rotten flesh is deliberately incorporated into Pale Masters' system, only notable smell would be that associated with particular bodily transformation ("partial mummification") and involved agents, if any.

Since the semi-mummification makes you immune to critical hits and the like, I assumed it would entail removing internal organs. Mere oil and wraps would seem to have the effect of preservation only, so I was wondering about specific details.

"If you want to be good roleplayer, you shall rot!" :lol:

I dislike to tell players /how/ to roleplay their characters. But, I think I can give you details! As for your "Scent" problem, it would be smart to roleplay the aroma. There is a feat you get, called "Bone Skin", as a Palemaster. How I've always looked at the feat is, your skin turns from a normal shade to a Greenish hue, like a bone, and begins to smell like a decaying corpse. It isn't mandatory by any means, but extra flavor for a Palemaster. Also, note, you don't just have to go a standard "Lich" type. There are multiple types of Palemasters you could be. (Ie / Incorporeal / Corporeal / Preserved / e.t.c). So, to add more "flavor", you could push for one of those. If you dislike being a basic Paleamster.

Last edited by Dunecat on Sat, Feb 27 2016, 14:52 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Another apparent issue is a difference between D&D 3.0 (Tome and Blood, which is, apparently, used in vanilla NWN) and D&D 3.5 (Libris Mortis) versions of Pale Master prestige class, for the sake of lore and non-mechanical abilities.

As for:

Ulir wrote:

Since the semi-mummification makes you immune to critical hits and the like, I assumed it would entail removing internal organs. Mere oil and wraps would seem to have the effect of preservation only, so I was wondering about specific details.

LM Pale Master version's Deathless Mastery specifically states: "He still needs to breathe, eat, and sleep as normal for his type, and he still ages normally.", making organ removal rather unlikely. Then again, such are properties of a creature possessing:
Undead Vigour - generally "improved" health, improving general fortitude
Tough as Bone-ness - immune to disease, nonlethal damage, and stunning
Deathless Mastery - immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, death effects, critical hits, ability drain, and energy drain, as well as damage to his physical ability scores (Str, Dex, and Con)

Thus, it would not be easy to explain such peculiarities, short of stark DM fiat - or assumption that this is "merely" a case of a poor PrC design.

Regarding "mummification" method - any of numerous RL methods of mummification could be possibly applied, (in particular - buddhist-styled self-mummification) as could be any supernatural methods, obviously without RL analogues.

Dunecat wrote:

Another apparent issue is a difference between D&D 3.0 (Tome and Blood, which is, apparently, used in vanilla NWN) and D&D 3.5 (Libris Mortis) versions of Pale Master prestige class, for the sake of lore and non-mechanical abilities.

I think most players who play a Palemaster in depth, use Libris Mortis the lorebook as a guide. The main guide.

Palemaster FAQ - Stage 1, the Questioning

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