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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 13:50 PM 

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As a returning Hin player in Bendir Dale, I'm confused. It used to be that we really didn't enforce too much outside the inner walls, however, our citizen militia could and did remove asshats and those summoning demons and undead. Then... work was done to build an outer wall. I was told and learned from being around a bit, that this would help enforce our laws, but people still must have access to the carts, so banned individuals can use the carts, but not linger.

I now play the Marshall of the Watch (reformed Bendir Militia) and, would really like to know what exactly the walls provide. If we can't enforce anything outside our inner gate, why do we have an outer wall at all? If this sounds snarky, not my intent, still low on coffee this morning, but I wanted to say something.

I truly appreciate all the work and efforts that went into these changes for Bendir Dale, and I thought it was done.... I also thought we had a bit more control over the areas surrounded by our walls. If we have no more control than before, why have the walls? They are free to come and go through them anytime anyway.

I suppose I just need clarification so I can properly roleplay my character's position.

Thanks!


 
      
Elyon
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 14:45 PM 



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msheeler wrote:
PvP rules apply both ways. Hin folk can not PvP evil (or asswipe) PCs w/o dm coverage just the same as the evil PCs can not PvP Hin folk.

Make sense?


I should add that this is... very dangerous. If either party aggravates another (let's face it, we do get asswipes as you say!), knowing that you can't pvp without a DM you're either: going to be continuously goaded without doing anything about it -or- you completely ignore them. They're both completely immersion breaking options. As for the latter, there's been accounts where the evil guys feel frustrated because they feel ignored. But what can you do? I know for a fact that the players of good guys just don't want to 'feed' the bad guys if they can't deal with them under this rule. Sadly, people do take things to heart and it's very rare to find quality conflict (especially in Bendir) where it's more than 'I'm goading you by being a complete ass', PvP, someone dies. Another question comes into mind. Who is to blame if someone does eventually give in, forgets about the pvp rules, and initiates PvP?

I should also add that this rule has been broken too many times before the module update... but with the new defenses and what not, let's hope that people actually play sensibly. I'm also confused, it's always been this way- along the lines of what I was told, Hackums explains this perfectly:

Mr. Hackums wrote:
the PC guard is encouraged to enforce the law in that buffer zone between the circles of security. Its why they can catch a banned individual lingering in their territory (though outside of their walls), and rightfully tell them that they need to leave or suffer consequences, even though the NPC guards aren't helping.
Knowing the short-numbered staff, this is understandable.

That Guy wrote:
I suppose I just need clarification so I can properly roleplay my character's position.


I understand! Which is why I asked those questions. We need clarification on what we can do. At the same time, I think the rulings need to be mindful of not regressing into a warzone of mindless conflict. Personally I think the way it's always been, as you mentioned That Guy, is fine. We're still letting everyone use the roads and carts, but we're also giving a chance for evil players to do something evil by going against their ban. If we were to remove all bans outside the 'inner wall' and no one can enforce the laws there, they have nothing to fight against. (Or the roads revert into a reckless warzone like before. No one can do anything about it, despite how much metagaming happens).

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 14:59 PM 

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I'm with Elyon on this. We should be able to have some amount of control within the outer walls too, or, and.. I've seen this... wayyyy tooo many times, people will come and be asshats, as was stated. We either deal with them or ignore them. If we can't deal with them without DM oversight, I think, wow... I just don't even know what to think on that. No other settlement has that kind of rule that I know of. If someone came to Wiltun and was a complete ass outside the gate, but still on Wiltun's island there... Tristen dealt with it. Swiftly and without prejudice, there are guards there, but I never needed a DM's interaction to do his job. I guess that's where I'm confused here. Does Ally really need to get a DM to have someone removed? If they refuse to leave, she can't do anything about it? To me, that's a little extreme. Again, if we have no authority outside our main walls, then... why have secondary ones at all? And... if it's all "Bendir Land", why can't we have some authority over it just like any other town does? Kohl, Wiltun, and Cordor all have ships or carts in their settlements or outlying areas still considered their land, yet... I don't know of such restrictions there.


 
      
Maverick00053
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 15:11 PM 

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You all need to realize that Bendir Dale is a special case because of its location. It is a center of hub and traffic. Players simply cannot avoid entering it. You all gain a huge RP influx of every player on the server as a result.

You also need to understand you simply cannot become another Cordor/Wiltun/Kohl when it comes to your entire area. If we let you guys go ham on the entire area it will harm the server. Your location and situation makes that the case. It is a give and take that you must learn to accept. Your location gives you a huge boom in players, interactions, and attention but it also comes with some OOC restrictions.

PvP rules apply to both parties period. While you may not need DM coverage to kill the necromancer who is throwing around undead in the middle of the Dale we still expect you to follow the rules of engagement.

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Couch_Ninja
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 15:16 PM 



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On Laws:
Actually. I'm reading something different here. We've got a piece of walled off, fortified land with balistae and golems protecting it, and our laws do 'not' extend there? Is that right? So when someone we don't like shows up there, they are not protected by our laws either? I'm not sure this has the effect Tormak is hoping it is going to get.

I would offer to construct a legal framework seperating these zones properly. Designating the inner town as our legal juristiction, and designating the roads around it as something of a 'protected zone of trade & agriculture', with looser rules on who moves through it, but certainly with rules that abolish agression or crop sabotage. You can already see an example of this right now. The outer gates don't have guards telling you to show your face, but there 'are' guards patrolling inside the gates.

There needs to be some kind of IC reason, however, why this is preferable over simply having our laws in place in both zones. Example: what are people in Kohlingen going to think if we let man-eating hobgoblins, banites and necromancers loiter on the roads? Overal, I would suggest that this outer zone represents a neutral area that garuantees safety among all that can behave. A modern diplomatic experiment in which friend and foe can communciate safely as long as they don't start shit. It would certainly fit with my campaign promises. If you start shit though. Prepare for it to be shoved right back up your arse, KRIN. :lol:


On walls:
Alright, I wasn't really around much when this thing was getting built. But by the sound of it, the DM team somewhat regrets having it built in the first place. What's the deal, guys? Why wasn't this stopped in early conception back in the day if it's going to be a problem right now?

As far as the new walls go. . .Or, actually. To be precise, these aren't walls. They're Palisades. I don't know how much time and energy went into producing these. But Palisades have the following differences in comparison to a stone wall:
- They rot away, they're just dead trees. These don't even look a bit refined.
- They're trees! An average troll should be either heavy or strong enough to uproot or topple them!
- Did I mention they're trees and we live next to a grove of druids?
- They can literally be built and deconstructed overnight if you've got an army at your disposal.
- The Pallisade was first employed prominently by Romans and Greeks in the iron age, who used these for their military camps. But these same Romans built Hadrian's wall, a stone wall in Britain, when it came to setting up a permanent perimiter. . .Faerun is in the late middle ages, has magic, and a few tens of thousands of Elven and Dwarven high civilization preluding current civilization. I have the distinct impression that we can do better than a Palisade.
- They are not built out of stone. So, can we get a refund on all that stone we used to build them? Or are they made from petrified trees and dragon bones? That'd be cool, if it weren't just regular trees, yeah. . .

But, okay. Let's say we're all hypothetically satisfied with having a Palisade. I can certainly live with it. Then comes the matter of their placement. Most of it is pretty well-placed. Kuddo's to whoever built this! However some points are admittedly not very optimal at the moment. So let's comb over the entire area as it stands now, starting by the west gate and going counter-clockwise across the palisade. I have found 'four' things I would do different.

From the water to the west gate: https://gyazo.com/ee5ec35139e47c39397c0e9bebc23f4a
Hm. . .Do we really want to defend that lone tree? I argue we connect the two walls at the corner of the old wall there, and then have them run parallel to the water.

Elevation problems in the south: https://gyazo.com/c97dc3c988212fde1a58bda711eb3fc2
The limitation of the palisade placable's height here makes it seem like you could just climb across without much effort. This happens more than once in the wall, but in most places the elevation cannot be remedied. In this instance however, we can place the Palisade on top of a stone/cobble/mud wall thing. To level it out a little.

South East corner: https://gyazo.com/6ad611433a2038a7714b2a2a8396b733
What is even going on here? A piece of wall going nowhere? I figured our construction efforts would have cleaned that up. And was that goblin always there? This corner may have been overlooked. Heh. Not a big deal but we probally want to delete that wall there.

Eastern flank: https://gyazo.com/c41c9100659e0586a911833520f73ad4
This one is a bit of an eyesore. Again a problem of elevation. But this time around, it seems it's easier to get in than it is to get out. Haha. Poor Hins. Either way, we don't really seem to be taking advantage of the natural cliffsides here. Can't we have the palisade along the cliff, so we can look over the tips with a pair of Balistae? Then where the elevation starts, we can lower the palisade further into the ground to keep it a bit on level with the rest. Or ideally make it so that the cliff actually functions like a proper natural defence, by not having it ramp up on the outside like that. Part of building a proper wall is hewing out the enviroment a little, after all.

The rest looks dandy, though. I'd say.


 
      
That Guy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 15:34 PM 

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Maverick00053 wrote:
You all need to realize that Bendir Dale is a special case because of its location. It is a center of hub and traffic. Players simply cannot avoid entering it. You all gain a huge RP influx of every player on the server as a result.

You also need to understand you simply cannot become another Cordor/Wiltun/Kohl when it comes to your entire area. If we let you guys go ham on the entire area it will harm the server. Your location and situation makes that the case. It is a give and take that you must learn to accept. Your location gives you a huge boom in players, interactions, and attention but it also comes with some OOC restrictions.

PvP rules apply to both parties period. While you may not need DM coverage to kill the necromancer who is throwing around undead in the middle of the Dale we still expect you to follow the rules of engagement.


Cordor is a hub of traffic, Wiltun is a hub of traffic. Even Kohl is to some extent. Bendir consists of one map. We've ALWAYS been able to have SOME control over what goes on outside the walls on that one map. No one is asking to keep banned individuals from using the carts, as a matter of fact, we all agree that is something that needs to stay! However, tying everyone's hands and hoping the asshats play by the rules is completely immersion breaking and makes no sense.

Quote:
PvP rules apply to both parties period. While you may not need DM coverage to kill the necromancer who is throwing around undead in the middle of the Dale we still expect you to follow the rules of engagement.


Mav, when you say "middle of the Dale", what area are you referring to? Most likely that Necromoron won't be inside our walls anyway. Are you in fact saying the same thing we are just in different words?

In summation, my understanding of things:

1: All laws and rules of Bendir apply within the inner walls.
2: All laws and rules of Bendir apply within the outer walls, with the exception that banned individuals can freely use the road and cart system so long as they don't linger.

That is how I understood it to be. Is this now not the case?


 
      
No_Dice_13
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 15:43 PM 

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The problem I see here is we did all this RP and even co-ordinated with Devs and DMs about this new wall and the new guard placements and now we get a weaker wall then the resources we collected to build it, being told the laws we implemented IC because of all the troublemakers were coming and starting fight are null and void, and lets face most of these ppl that did it were pvp hungry anyway. We don't need to become like Kohl, Cordor or Wiltun but the fact that we are a main hub for people coming in going means we should be allowed to rp defending the town. Again not saying banned folks and others can't pass through freely we never bother them ICly unless they linger around. I just see it all a waste of RP if everything we worked to achieve is now being questioned and told we aren't allowed to do it. You might as well tear down the wall and put the golems inside the Dale and forget we even tried to change anything.

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Kudark
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 16:00 PM 

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That Guy wrote:
In summation, my understanding of things:

1: All laws and rules of Bendir apply within the inner walls.
2: All laws and rules of Bendir apply within the outer walls, with the exception that banned individuals can freely use the road and cart system so long as they don't linger.

That is how I understood it to be. Is this now not the case?


Yes. This is how it has been for many years, right up until the end of Rosary's term as Mayor, unless there was some secret change that's now being brought out.

Edit: Bendir Dale laws have always been in effect for their lands (the map area), not just inside the inner wall. The outer wall was recently completed from an ongoing project. Banned people have always been permitted to use the carts, or pass through the Dale.

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Last edited by Kudark on Thu, Mar 17 2016, 16:06 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
Elyon
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 16:00 PM 



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We're hardly rogue on our laws. We know players can't avoid entering Bendir. We love the fact it's the centre of the trade routes. We're suddenly treated as if the new walls make all the difference on the laws- when everything is still the same with or without the walls. Many can attest to how lax we are, reasonable so that even bad guys can pass through and use the carts. But referring back to this, we're now being told we can't enforce laws outside the 'innerwalls'- which is a dramatic change from how it's always been in-game:

TormakSaber wrote:
Bendir's laws do not apply outside the "inner walls". It is not metagaming any guards to PvP outside of the inner walls where the racial gates restrict entrance. Do not expect DMs to enforce this, because it is not a rule, IC or OOC.


- We've covered that it /is/ infact metagaming the guards to PvP outside of the inner walls without DM supervision.

Maverick00053 wrote:
While you may not need DM coverage to kill the necromancer who is throwing around undead in the middle of the Dale we still expect you to follow the rules of engagement.


This is very enlightening to hear then. And by that means, are we still allowed to enforce our laws outside the 'inner walls' then? Are we allowed to deal with trouble outside the inner walls or, if what Tormak said is true, do we just ignore it?

Ultimately, the real question is this:
That Guy wrote:
In summation, my understanding of things:

1: All laws and rules of Bendir apply within the inner walls.
2: All laws and rules of Bendir apply within the outer walls, with the exception that banned individuals can freely use the road and cart system so long as they don't linger.

That is how I understood it to be. Is this now not the case?

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 16:24 PM 

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Elyon wrote:

I should add that this is... very dangerous. If either party aggravates another (let's face it, we do get asswipes as you say!), knowing that you can't pvp without a DM you're either: going to be continuously goaded without doing anything about it -or- you completely ignore them. They're both completely immersion breaking options. As for the latter, there's been accounts where the evil guys feel frustrated because they feel ignored. But what can you do? I know for a fact that the players of good guys just don't want to 'feed' the bad guys if they can't deal with them under this rule. Sadly, people do take things to heart and it's very rare to find quality conflict (especially in Bendir) where it's more than 'I'm goading you by being a complete ass', PvP, someone dies. Another question comes into mind. Who is to blame if someone does eventually give in, forgets about the pvp rules, and initiates PvP?


---------

- We've covered that it /is/ infact metagaming the guards to PvP outside of the inner walls without DM supervision.


I actually had an individual casting disjunction on me inside the outer walls, and was given big angry messages about 'metagming' because I met hostile action with hostile action and the guards just sat there and watched it all. Do you need DM oversight to cast disjunction randomly on people who are just sitting around? Or just to fight them back? What's the rule here? Can't you just meet force with force w/o a DM if someone is doing stuff like that? It's all so vague, and the space is so important.

The outer-dale area is so absolutely huge and dense and full of people, the idea of trying to enforce some 'not actually enforced in-game' rule-set over such a swath of land is absurd, particularly when some people revel in dancing the line ic/ooc.

I also thought most of the militia men were there because of non-pc threats, like the trolls and orcs and shit that attacked, and assumed the global server rule of city 'laws only apply when there's a race-gate' was in effect.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 16:40 PM 

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That Guy wrote:

Cordor is a hub of traffic, Wiltun is a hub of traffic. Even Kohl is to some extent. Bendir consists of one map. We've ALWAYS been able to have SOME control over what goes on outside the walls on that one map. No one is asking to keep banned individuals from using the carts, as a matter of fact, we all agree that is something that needs to stay! However, tying everyone's hands and hoping the asshats play by the rules is completely immersion breaking and makes no sense.


also as someone that's been banned from some of these places; you can still use the boats on the wiltun dock/portal to the desert, and the boats by kohl, even when banned, they don't control that stuff, because at the end of the day it's still a human being at the other end of that character and they have to be able to get places to function on the server.

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 16:47 PM 

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Exactly, we're not asking for anything different than the above.


 
      
maglorine
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 16:50 PM 

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Kudark wrote:
That Guy wrote:
In summation, my understanding of things:

1: All laws and rules of Bendir apply within the inner walls.
2: All laws and rules of Bendir apply within the outer walls, with the exception that banned individuals can freely use the road and cart system so long as they don't linger.

That is how I understood it to be. Is this now not the case?


Yes. This is how it has been for many years, right up until the end of Rosary's term as Mayor, unless there was some secret change that's now being brought out.

Edit: Bendir Dale laws have always been in effect for their lands (the map area), not just inside the inner wall. The outer wall was recently completed from an ongoing project. Banned people have always been permitted to use the carts, or pass through the Dale.

This has been my long term understanding as well.

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Couch_Ninja
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 16:51 PM 



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I have the impression that the staff isn't asking for anything different than that, either.


 
      
corypx
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 16:53 PM 

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Commie wrote:

also as someone that's been banned from some of these places; you can still use the boats on the wiltun dock/portal to the desert, and the boats by kohl, even when banned, they don't control that stuff, because at the end of the day it's still a human being at the other end of that character and they have to be able to get places to function on the server.


They do in fact, if you lurk around a area your banned the PCs would tell you to move along, walking from the docks to the portal to Khem....ect is all fine and good but if you pull up a chair and sit outside the gates you can be sure you will end up being kicked out.

I think that's what the people of the dale are asking for, the power to ban people as per normal but to enforce the fact that if you want to hang out and chat with PCs, it in fact does not have to be the dale....just because its the middle of the island like a giant crossroads and players must pass though there is fine and they let you do that, they should not have to let people hang around out there if they have been banned for a good reason.

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 16:55 PM 

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Couch_Ninja wrote:
I have the impression that the staff isn't asking for anything different than that, either.


I'm beginning to think all of this was a miscommunication or misunderstanding and things haven't really changed. This is simply too drastic a change too suddenly to be anything else.


 
      
Couch_Ninja
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 17:00 PM 



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I still urge you all to give my first post here some credence. As far as the wall placement goes. I think the primary aesthethic problem is that the walls which are placed on top of the south hill are already 2 vertical levels above Bendir's ground level and then only add to the height, giving you this odd picture: https://gyazo.com/28f34f4e1398baa70e7d391c6e10368b

Why is the hill across the south so high, anyways?


 
      
Kudark
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 17:01 PM 

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Couch_Ninja wrote:
I have the impression that the staff isn't asking for anything different than that, either.


It seems to me that they are, according to this:
TormakSaber wrote:
Bendir's laws do not apply outside the "inner walls". It is not metagaming any guards to PvP outside of the inner walls where the racial gates restrict entrance. Do not expect DMs to enforce this, because it is not a rule, IC or OOC.

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 17:03 PM 

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I wasn't around for much of the building of the walls, but I do recall that a LOT of stone was requested by the team for the job. Why stone if we have a palisade?

As for placement, I know there are limitations and I don't intend to nitpick how and where certain wall pieces go, but... yeah, Couch_ninja pretty much nailed it.


Last edited by That Guy on Thu, Mar 17 2016, 17:26 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
Elyon
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 17:25 PM 



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Right! Sorry Couch_Ninja, I was actually looking at that for a while. I pretty much agree with you. I'll add that it was really nice when we could use the cliff on the east side to look over the troll area, when the ballista was there.

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Couch_Ninja
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 17:29 PM 



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We could use that south hill as a natural battlements for a palisade as well. The problem is that the edge of the map doesn't give it a cliffside to make that work. . .In fact. Is there a way to acquire this area so I can tool around with it a little bit?


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 17:34 PM 

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Kudark wrote:
Couch_Ninja wrote:
I have the impression that the staff isn't asking for anything different than that, either.


It seems to me that they are, according to this:
TormakSaber wrote:
Bendir's laws do not apply outside the "inner walls". It is not metagaming any guards to PvP outside of the inner walls where the racial gates restrict entrance. Do not expect DMs to enforce this, because it is not a rule, IC or OOC.


Well then much ado about nothing.

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walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 17:37 PM 

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When I first started playing here I was told drow were banned from the forest... carts aside, how is that any different from the dale? How is it any different when Elves have told certain people they can't linger on the road past the fall and must move along because they are banned from Elven lands?

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 17:41 PM 

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walnutboy wrote:
When I first started playing here I was told drow were banned from the forest... carts aside, how is that any different from the dale? How is it any different when Elves have told certain people they can't linger on the road past the fall and must move along because they are banned from Elven lands?


Pretty sure you can go in the forest just not the Grove. And they can't "ban" you from roads, the nexus falls is ok until you get in range of the guards.

Of course there might be pvp if you push the issue but I mean, so far it hasn't happened to me.

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walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 17:51 PM 

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Commie wrote:
walnutboy wrote:
When I first started playing here I was told drow were banned from the forest... carts aside, how is that any different from the dale? How is it any different when Elves have told certain people they can't linger on the road past the fall and must move along because they are banned from Elven lands?


Pretty sure you can go in the forest just not the Grove. And they can't "ban" you from roads, the nexus falls is ok until you get in range of the guards.

Of course there might be pvp if you push the issue but I mean, so far it hasn't happened to me.


Not to derail the topic but it is related. The RP was IC at the time many months ago and it was stated drow were banned from Amia forest. Same with the road by the falls, think there is a post somewhere which highlights how far the Elven lands extend as well. More recent RP had us humans questioned why we were in the sky forest and told to leave as it was Elven lands. Granted it isn't a hub BUT it is also beyond any 'racial gates' and there are no guards there!

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 17:56 PM 

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walnutboy wrote:
Commie wrote:
walnutboy wrote:
When I first started playing here I was told drow were banned from the forest... carts aside, how is that any different from the dale? How is it any different when Elves have told certain people they can't linger on the road past the fall and must move along because they are banned from Elven lands?


Pretty sure you can go in the forest just not the Grove. And they can't "ban" you from roads, the nexus falls is ok until you get in range of the guards.

Of course there might be pvp if you push the issue but I mean, so far it hasn't happened to me.


Not to derail the topic but it is related. The RP was IC at the time many months ago and it was stated drow were banned from Amia forest. Same with the road by the falls, think there is a post somewhere which highlights how far the Elven lands extend as well. More recent RP had us humans questioned why we were in the sky forest and told to leave as it was Elven lands. Granted it isn't a hub BUT it is also beyond any 'racial gates' and there are no guards there!


Yeah that's why its not "real" and you can go there. There's a lamp on that road by elf town and the forest has one of the best leveling spots. You can go to these places as a banned race and I doubt anyone will say shit. I go on forest Ranger patrol on my druid and short of seeing a Drow worshipping a spider I don't bar an eye. I walk my gnoll along the winya road consistently too and I've had one issue only and even thst ended with "please leave" and I was like "ok"

Also remember you're talking to ppl thst tell you shit they don't have the authority to say. I've been told I was banned from all lands North of and west of the mimir bridge but that doesn't mean it was an enforceable or legal ban.

Posted from phone plz ignore issues with the post

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 17:59 PM 

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walnutboy wrote:
Commie wrote:
walnutboy wrote:
When I first started playing here I was told drow were banned from the forest... carts aside, how is that any different from the dale? How is it any different when Elves have told certain people they can't linger on the road past the fall and must move along because they are banned from Elven lands?


Pretty sure you can go in the forest just not the Grove. And they can't "ban" you from roads, the nexus falls is ok until you get in range of the guards.

Of course there might be pvp if you push the issue but I mean, so far it hasn't happened to me.


Not to derail the topic but it is related. The RP was IC at the time many months ago and it was stated drow were banned from Amia forest. Same with the road by the falls, think there is a post somewhere which highlights how far the Elven lands extend as well. More recent RP had us humans questioned why we were in the sky forest and told to leave as it was Elven lands. Granted it isn't a hub BUT it is also beyond any 'racial gates' and there are no guards there!


I'll have to comment here on this too.... Yeah, when I played an Elf in the Armathora recently, we were told that the rules of Winya extend beyond the Falls and into the Sky Forest, as we were encouraged to enforce the laws there too. While I don't have an issue with that, I do have an issue with Bendir not being able to do the same outside their one main wall.... even with letting banned people use the carts.


 
      
Kudark
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 18:03 PM 

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I'll just clear this up, then back on topic.

Drow are banned from lingering in Amia Forest, they can pass through, as long as they stay on the path. Any Oakmist Vale Grove member would tell you this.

Winya Ravana controls the Nexus Falls area east to the lamp, the rest of the map west, is theirs. I have a character that can't go west, past the lamp, or into that map area from the other transitions, due to a ban. They also control Sky Forest.

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 18:15 PM 

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So, a quick comment. This was not done in a well thought out manner, that is a fault of the staff. Had this been carefully thought out the decision would have been - no, no wall period, no golems.

However, we are trying to make the best of this and are making the best compromise we can which is to allow the walls but Bendir Law only applies inside the walls. Yes you can tell Mr. Evil to move along, but you'll need DM coverage to enforce it.


 
      
That Guy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 18:23 PM 

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msheeler wrote:
So, a quick comment. This was not done in a well thought out manner, that is a fault of the staff. Had this been carefully thought out the decision would have been - no, no wall period, no golems.

However, we are trying to make the best of this and are making the best compromise we can which is to allow the walls but Bendir Law only applies inside the walls. Yes you can tell Mr. Evil to move along, but you'll need DM coverage to enforce it.


This is saddening and frustrating. I don't see how anyone would approve of a wall, ballistas and extra guards, but nothing to enforce. That makes no sense whatsoever and it throws away months of work by many people. In my opinion, remove the walls, remove the golems and guards or... remove the carts and leave the protections. To me... this is absurd. Suddenly, the rules are changed and no notice, no one was aware, not even the people who actually roleplay in Bendir Dale. When did this rule change? Why is there a double standard?

Every other town has the right to enforce their laws, but not Bendir Dale now. I'm very disappointed by this abrupt ruling out of nowhere by the team. I don't really know what else to say.


 
      
Kudark
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 18:31 PM 

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That Guy wrote:
msheeler wrote:
So, a quick comment. This was not done in a well thought out manner, that is a fault of the staff. Had this been carefully thought out the decision would have been - no, no wall period, no golems.

However, we are trying to make the best of this and are making the best compromise we can which is to allow the walls but Bendir Law only applies inside the walls. Yes you can tell Mr. Evil to move along, but you'll need DM coverage to enforce it.


This is saddening and frustrating. I don't see how anyone would approve of a wall, ballistas and extra guards, but nothing to enforce. That makes no sense whatsoever and it throws away months of work by many people. In my opinion, remove the walls, remove the golems and guards or... remove the carts and leave the protections. To me... this is absurd. Suddenly, the rules are changed and no notice, no one was aware, not even the people who actually roleplay in Bendir Dale. When did this rule change? Why is there a double standard?

Every other town has the right to enforce their laws, but not Bendir Dale now. I'm very disappointed by this abrupt ruling out of nowhere by the team. I don't really know what else to say.


I would say this ruling treats the Bendir area between the walls to be much like Cordor North, or the lands adjacent to Kohlingen. You need DM oversight for PvP there, if the RP comes to that point. Seems fair to me.

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 18:33 PM 

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The rules haven't changed for Bendir Dale, that's the point. We can not change the rules for that area and allow you to decide who has and who does not have access to what is the biggest cross road of the server.

I can pull the walls completely, but I was trying not to. Same with the golems. Frankly most of that stuff has a very in hin like feel to it anyways.

This has nothing to do with individual players, it is entirely about the design of the server and the fact that you have to cross through Bendir to use the cart system.

I was specifically asked not to move the carts because the fostered rp there. If you want Bendir law to preside between the inner and putter walls you lose the carts. There is no debate to that. We will leave the cart system accessible to ALL players.


 
      
That Guy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 18:38 PM 

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msheeler wrote:
The rules haven't changed for Bendir Dale, that's the point. We can not change the rules for that area and allow you to decide who has and who does not have access to what is the biggest cross road of the server.

I can pull the walls completely, but I was trying not to. Same with the golems. Frankly most of that stuff has a very in hin like feel to it anyways.

This has nothing to do with individual players, it is entirely about the design of the server and the fact that you have to cross through Bendir to use the cart system.

I was specifically asked not to move the carts because the fostered rp there. If you want Bendir law to preside between the inner and putter walls you lose the carts. There is no debate to that. We will leave the cart system accessible to ALL players.


No one has said we stop people from using the carts.... Not once. We always allow that, as that's what was agreed upon. I don't understand why this is still an issue.

Yes, the rules did change... we never needed a DM to remove someone before, and now we do. That's quite a change, and something no other settlement needs to do.


 
      
rafaelmacgyver
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 18:44 PM 

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All I will say is that the feeling that all the RP and -TIME- invested doing said RP in game or in forums feels like it was completely ignored and threw into the thrash... Guess the Server is not a Sandbox anymore...
People kept causing trouble... then IC actions to end the trouble were made... and now they are ignored.
I do not know... no matter what is said... nothing will change the feeling that the RP for all the changes on the Dale was really thrown in the trash... but hey... been feeling that way since I was told the several hours and hours I've did of building a STONE Wall was changed for a wooden thing because of technical difficulties anyway...

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Kudark
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 18:47 PM 

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That Guy wrote:
Yes, the rules did change... we never needed a DM to remove someone before, and now we do. That's quite a change, and something no other settlement needs to do.



Kudark wrote:
I would say this ruling treats the Bendir area between the walls to be much like Cordor North, or the lands adjacent to Kohlingen. You need DM oversight for PvP there, if the RP comes to that point. Seems fair to me.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 18:54 PM 

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So like, if I'm just hanging out in these areas and someone does a hostile action (such as a hostile spell cast) on me, what do I do? Wait for a dm? Don't retaliate?

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PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 19:03 PM 

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Commie wrote:
So like, if I'm just hanging out in these areas and someone does a hostile action (such as a hostile spell cast) on me, what do I do? Wait for a dm? Don't retaliate?


I was curious about the same. Does that mean people can ICly push buttons knowing that unless a DM is around OOCly.. there is no IC reaction? So beyond all that DMs currently do they are also area police? Does this apply to all, shall I say, DMZ areas? Not that I play such characters but I'm curious what limit there is and scope for confrontation in such places.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 19:05 PM 

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msheeler wrote:

However, we are trying to make the best of this and are making the best compromise we can which is to allow the walls but Bendir Law only applies inside the walls. Yes you can tell Mr. Evil to move along, but you'll need DM coverage to enforce it.



Is this really a rule? If I just see someone in a place they are banned from I cant do shit to them unless a dm is on and there?

Need a ruling because if so oh boy am I gonna have some fun tonight.

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PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 19:15 PM 

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You do not need a dm to pvp outside of bendirs inner walls.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 19:16 PM 

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TormakSaber wrote:
You do not need a dm to pvp outside of bendirs inner walls.


Swish.

How about inside? If someone's causing trouble?

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 19:29 PM 

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No_Dice_13 wrote:
I agree pvp rules still apply but it sounded like people were saying that our laws don't apply outside the inner walls, when they do we rped changing the laws, we still rp working on the laws, we built the wall and posted the golems and guards to help enforce that it is the whole reasone for the rp and building of the walls. I just want to have that clarified as it sounds like the guards and golems are just there as decorations.

It is not.metagaming to pvp outside the inner walls.

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PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 20:03 PM 

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If the fact we RPd building a wall and placing golems and ballistas outside the Inner wall mean nothing when it comes to PVP, then I propose we take out the wall move the golems inside place a few towers for the ballistas to go and be done with it. We can free up file size for stuff we want inside the town, because as it stands from all this back and forth is that the guards and stuff outside the town in the surrounding area are just there for show and have no value to what goes on IC.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 20:06 PM 

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No_Dice_13 wrote:
If the fact we RPd building a wall and placing golems and ballistas outside the Inner wall mean nothing when it comes to PVP, then I propose we take out the wall move the golems inside place a few towers for the ballistas to go and be done with it. We can free up file size for stuff we want inside the town, because as it stands from all this back and forth is that the guards and stuff outside the town in the surrounding area are just there for show and have no value to what goes on IC.


I think that stuff will be great if the trolls orcs and myloks invade again.

Though I proffered the simple golem-less wall-less feel of the non hyper militarized Bendir Dale.

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Elyon
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 20:25 PM 



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Two ideas are conflicting here, so I'm confused.

TormakSaber wrote:
You do not need a dm to pvp outside of bendirs inner walls.

msheeler wrote:
Yes you can tell Mr. Evil to move along, but you'll need DM coverage to enforce it.


If you don't need a DM to PvP outside of Bendir's inner walls, doesn't that mean the PC militia can force Mr. Evil out whenever they want without DM oversight? I.E. enforcing the laws?

But at the same time, wouldn't it still be considered metagaming of the guards because they're blatantly ignored due to PvP? Afterall, they're not given a chance to react.

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Krin
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 20:31 PM 



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So.. Please take this with a grain of salt as I don't have an active 'Bendir' character.

That being said, my character does and has regularly lingered around Bendir for years. Even with Bendir being a central hub on the server, it makes no sense to have an OOC restriction on how the characters can enforce the laws on their own land.

I've never seen any DM or Bendir character say that Bendir law only applies inside the inner walls of the town. The laws have always applied on the roads outside of Bendir too, which is why there are guards stationed out there.

As far as I know, the Northern Outskirts of Cordor, within the outer walls, are still covered by Cordorian law. Why should it be any different for Bendir?


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 20:56 PM 

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Krin wrote:
As far as I know, the Northern Outskirts of Cordor, within the outer walls, are still covered by Cordorian law. Why should it be any different for Bendir?

I had a banned from cordor character and never had an issue with being in North cordor on the bridge or by the cart. I'd sit there for hours and chat ppl up.

I really think the "race gate" is where laws start and end. Anything past that is just no mans land with people in it.

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Krin
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 21:03 PM 



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Commie wrote:
Krin wrote:
As far as I know, the Northern Outskirts of Cordor, within the outer walls, are still covered by Cordorian law. Why should it be any different for Bendir?

I had a banned from cordor character and never had an issue with being in North cordor on the bridge or by the cart. I'd sit there for hours and chat ppl up.

I really think the "race gate" is where laws start and end. Anything past that is just no mans land with people in it.


As far as I know, the specific bans in Bendir usually only apply inside the inner walls, but every other law involving fighting, shifting, racial bans, etc. still applies outside the inner walls.

Would it make sense if a character could go on a killing spree in Northern Cordor and say that none of Cordor's laws were being broken?


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 21:11 PM 

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Of course not. I think outside the walls you're governed by General normal rules like don't be a dick and if people run a fowl of that they can expect to be hunted down reguardless of "jurisdiction"

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 21:22 PM 

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I am trying to resolve the confused messages presented by Tormak and myself.

I operate under the assumption that you can not PvP in front of any NPC with out a DM to oversee that NPC. To do that would be considered meta-gaming the NPC. This, in my opinion, would be doubly true if that NPC was a guard NPC, since it's that NPC's job to ensure that the peace is kept.

That being said, Bendir Dale now has more guards positioned between the walls than it used to have just outside the walls and those NPCs include 2 golems on a hill with a broad range of view. So, from my view, I would say that you can not 'physically' force compliance by any other PC through a PvP action (attacking, knocking down, immobilizing, etc) with out a DM present because to do so would mean you were meta-gaming the NPC guards. This is a two way road, so for the same reasons that Mr. Evil can not attack you between the walls, you can not attack Mr. Evil.

You could demand that Mr. Evil leave the area, but unless you can get a DM's attention, there is limited actions you can take to 'enforce' that demand. Now, I might go so far as to say if Mr. Evil begins summoning undead and/or demons in between the walls we could argue that he was initiating PvP, but that would be a ruling I would want backed up by the DM team as a whole.

All that aside, if we determine that Bendir Dale PCs can PvP Mr. Evil in between the walls, why should we say that Mr. Evil can not PvP Bendir Dale PCs in the same place?


 
      
That Guy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 21:30 PM 

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Msheeler,

What you're essentially saying is that only the NPC guards can do anything on Bendir Land not directly inside the gates. To me, that makes the Mayor Appointed Citizens who are the Police and Protection force of Bendir Dale... useless in that case. I can't see how appointed officials can't oversee the removal of someone being an asshat. The guards... yeah, let's be honest, they have never done anything. We've tried getting DM oversight for things in the past, and I've never actually witnessed it occurring.

As for others initiating PVP vs us? It is going to happen. I promise you. What if there are no DM's available? We just stand there and say... "Stop, or I'll say stop again!". Since... we can't do a thing to stop them or we'd be metagaming too. To me... this is silly.

We don't have enough DM's and time with those DM's as it stands now... I can't see how asking them to babysit Bendir Dale for the asshats is a good use of what resources we do have.


 
      
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