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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 1:08 AM 

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In a sense yes. The bigger the file the more memory is used by the game when the server loads up, and the more load lag players will get.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 2:34 AM 

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msheeler wrote:
The spot I am thinking of is still in the Bendir Dale area, North of the walls and South of the forest. Near where the road warden is now.


does this mean people who are banned from the dale (like drow) will have to walk AROUND the dale somehow to get past it?

it's still a crossroads, cart placement notwithstanding.

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Couch_Ninja
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 3:48 AM 



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They can risk walking through the outer wall area given there's no guards opening those gates. I'm guessing only an observant PC would catch them doing it. Or they can walk around the wall, given that is now possible in our new Dale area.

I would think this to be the case now, no?


 
      
No_Dice_13
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 4:10 AM 

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I think I worded it wrong msheeler. I don't impose we have a right to say as to who gets to use the carts I already stated that we don;t stop anyone from doing that regardless if they are banned. I am just saying that by changing the jurisdiction of Bendir Dale and us not allowed to have certain laws for the surrounding area makes it feel as though all our rp we put in to having the walls and guard placements etc was for nothing. Now as for a suggestion I say move the carts to the other side where the warden is like you suggested. that takes care of anyone worried about taking the carts. Two we should be allowed to have some laws for the outer wall area. At least the no brandishing weapons and keeping the peace rule should be allowed to be enforced. and if the guards are visible use common sense as to how they would react knowing that a DM can't always be present, I mean that is how I always thought it was for every place really.

To sum up I suggest:
1. Move the cart to the other side of the bridge outside the new wall near the road warden as you suggested.
2. Laws for the outer wall area are simple keep the peace and no weapons drawn (that will at least limit the amount of stupid pvp)
3. Use common sense when RPing around an NPC during a conflict (which is the general rule anyway)

I understand that this was handled badly on both sides, I just don't want our RP and time we put in to be wasted and tossed out which is the feeling this whole thing made me to believe. I appreciate you trying to come up with a compromise and helping settle this thing. I get our complaints could have been issued slightly better and I meant no offense it was just upsetting and confusing. That said I have given my ideas that I think will help. I don;t want players playing other races to feel like they aren't allowed to drop by but if you are the shady type you do need to be cautious as we will be keeping a close eye.

P.S. Are you sure there isn't a better wall placement? xD

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Couch_Ninja
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 4:40 AM 



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I gave my suggestions to the DM on some improvements on the Palisade a few pages back, with pictures included. Hope they'll consider them.


 
      
msheeler
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 11:14 AM 

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@No Dice, as I stated several times, if the carts move outside the walls you can impose full Bendir Dale law in between the walls because players are not forced to be in there.


 
      
msheeler
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 11:18 AM 

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@ Couch_ninja I'll look back at those things you were talking about but realize that I already spent 8 hours doing this over and over numerous times adjusting it this way and that way to make it work, those parts where it transitions from higher elevation to lower elevation are limited in what can be done because I 9noy have 1 place to work with which is a single post I have to place post by post and there is only so much z-axis wiggle room with it.


 
      
No_Dice_13
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 11:46 AM 

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Well then I like the idea of just moving the carts outside the wall area that pretty much resolves the entire issue at hand here and sounds like a reasonable solution.

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Couch_Ninja
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 12:22 PM 



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msheeler wrote:
@ Couch_ninja I'll look back at those things you were talking about but realize that I already spent 8 hours doing this over and over numerous times adjusting it this way and that way to make it work, those parts where it transitions from higher elevation to lower elevation are limited in what can be done because I 9noy have 1 place to work with which is a single post I have to place post by post and there is only so much z-axis wiggle room with it.


The suggestions I provided aren't that complex, however. Except for the last one. If I could have the area file I could demonstrate it myself, to avoid having you spend another 8 hours on it?


 
      
Naivatkal
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 12:29 PM 

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I just have to say from an outsider's perspective (and one that never has caused trouble in Bendir) that I really dislike the walls and golems. It feels all... wrong I guess is a good word. I tried giving it a chance, but I've kept myself out of Bendir cause of them for the most part, and if the carts move outside the walls then I suppose I'll never have a reason to go in there.

Just my two cents.

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maglorine
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 13:15 PM 

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Since Bendir is ringed on three sides by local enemies it makes sense from my perspective to have an outer perimeter wall. I personally think the wooden palisade wall looks fine and fits in. The secure stone walls for the town center and a wooden palisade outer barrier reflective both of the importance of said areas and the availability of materials locally.

I wouldn't mind if the cart service were in a compact area just outside the outer walls, like the arrangement in Guldorand for example. That would meet the design needs of the module and align to the longstanding tradition of roleplay of the Bendir Dale player base.

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TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 17:51 PM 

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Naivatkal wrote:
I just have to say from an outsider's perspective (and one that never has caused trouble in Bendir) that I really dislike the walls and golems. It feels all... wrong I guess is a good word. I tried giving it a chance, but I've kept myself out of Bendir cause of them for the most part, and if the carts move outside the walls then I suppose I'll never have a reason to go in there.

Just my two cents.


Yeah, I feel the same was as a player. I'd just never go back into Bendir again. No point if the carts are outside, and no one goes inside except characters my characters don't care to interact w/ due to laws.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 18:17 PM 

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Naivatkal wrote:
I just have to say from an outsider's perspective (and one that never has caused trouble in Bendir) that I really dislike the walls and golems. It feels all... wrong I guess is a good word. I tried giving it a chance, but I've kept myself out of Bendir cause of them for the most part, and if the carts move outside the walls then I suppose I'll never have a reason to go in there.

Just my two cents.


I counted the logs and it's like 700+ trees it would have taken to build that damn wall. It's insane.

It looks like the fucking battle of alesia out there.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 18:36 PM 

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maglorine wrote:
I personally think the wooden palisade wall looks fine and fits in.


What?

How does THIS

http://i.imgur.com/xliELnD.jpg

Fit with THIS?

http://i.imgur.com/y3jOegG.jpg

Look how awful the styles clash.

http://i.imgur.com/wK8IZRa.jpg

I could sort of dig the old walls because they were so far away, but these new ones are atrocious. Not only are some floating in the air and placed poorly, they look horrible, clash awfully, and the 'route' they take is absurd.

Take a look at this; the walls won't actually 'do' anything against an attack; This is like a 10 foot swim.

http://i.imgur.com/fhOawWq.jpg

This is a normal gate that doesn't have 2 layers of walls guarding it. Just get past one gate and you're in.

http://i.imgur.com/5NYz14z.jpg

It's so awful. The more I look at it the more I don't like it.

Bendir was nice because it was so loose and people just sat around the carts. Now it's a military fortress where anything you say is within earshot of a guard, and looked upon by multiple golems and ballistae. The looming palisades made one of the most relaxed places on the server become one of the most oppressive looking. It really looks like the battle of alesia.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 18:41 PM 

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Look at this

http://i.imgur.com/4npoYnc.jpg

maglorine wrote:
I personally think the wooden palisade wall looks fine and fits in.


god damn rickety ass wall on a cliffside with giant holes in it.

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 18:48 PM 

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While I am aware of the sheer amount of effort that went into the new walls, golems and guards... I'm beginning to feel like... we had it just fine before that all started.

Of course, retconning all of that is a bit ridiculous at this point. What if... there was some catastrophe that befalls the Dale and destroys the palisade and the golems? I mean, palisades are weak, a troll attack or orcs even could destroy it.

I'm thinking this might give an IC reason why we -had- a wall, but it goes away.

No carts moved, no rule changes.... keep it simple. Go back to how it was before the wall was built. I'm aware of the problems we have then, trust me. I do feel though that a lot of the opinions voiced here make sense. Bendir Dale isn't a military fortress, and it shouldn't become one. If asshats want to come there, they're going to. The residents and friends have the opportunity to simply go in side, and for whatever reason, that rarely if ever happens. Maybe it's time it did once in a while.

I appreciate all the crazy work MSheeler has done on this, but... in the end, I get the feeling it never should have been agreed on, since now, after it's built, there are discrepancies over what it was intended for. Some event that eliminates the wall takes the "choice" out of the Halfling's hands, but preserves the work and roleplay leading up to it since, they would still have, "Remember when we build that wall?".

Just my opinion, and.. I'm sure it won't be the most popular one.


 
      
Grymia
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 18:59 PM 

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Given all the disagreement between folks at this point, that might not be a wholly bad idea. While yes losing the wall at this point given the work would suck for those that put in the time but it might help on the long term to go this route. That's just my thought.


 
      
No_Dice_13
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 19:56 PM 

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I like the suggestion of simply moving the carts outside the outer wall I think that resolves the biggest issue this thread was having. There has been a lot of good rp as to why those walls were in place and mostly due to events where monsters attacked the Dale, was never meant to keep players out. I think with the cart outside the outer walls and with the new walls moved in that settles all the problems for those that want to go by and leaves the hin folk to rp their laws within as they planned.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 20:36 PM 

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No_Dice_13 wrote:
I like the suggestion of simply moving the carts outside the outer wall I think that resolves the biggest issue this thread was having. There has been a lot of good rp as to why those walls were in place and mostly due to events where monsters attacked the Dale, was never meant to keep players out. I think with the cart outside the outer walls and with the new walls moved in that settles all the problems for those that want to go by and leaves the hin folk to rp their laws within as they planned.


What if you put the walls back to the 'old' walls (ie non palisade) and then just remove the golems and external guards, and go back to 'rules inside, no rules outside' like we had before?

You still get your walls, the area still looks normal, and everyone knows the walls are mostly for mylock and ork attacks. Plus if there's actually an attack of those things, im sure the DM's will spawn you some militia and golems to help fight.

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Krin
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 21:04 PM 



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I don't really see what the disagreement is about. If the Bendir playerbase has agreed that their characters won't ban certain groups from using the cart system and will give banned characters and racial groups the chance to simply walk off Bendir land when the cart system drops them off there, what other problem is there?

Bendir law has always been enforced, by PCs and NPC guards, on the land around Bendir. If some characters don't like that they're subject to Bendir law on that land..well.. that's an IC issue, isn't it?

If the DM team wants to have Bendir's NPC leaders say that they're abandoning all territory that isn't within the inner walls, that's something that can be handled IC too.


 
      
Elyon
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 21:07 PM 



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I was thinking the walls aren't the reason why we're having this whole issue. The walls are there for IG reasons. As Maglorine says, it makes perfect sense to have them considering we have neighbouring threats: mylocks, orcs and trolls. Someone on the opposition side enlighten me if you feel I'm wrong, but I believe guards and golems are the sole reason.

Before the wall was added to the module, the Bendir playerbase still had full jurisdiction over the whole map. It's stated on the law sign. The reason why the PC guard were able to enforce the laws outside on the roads was because of this:
MrHackums wrote:
So to elaborate on a concern: When someone is banned from the Dale, they are indeed banned from inside and outside the walls. They're banned from the entire area. However, the Dale NPC guard cannot actually enforce that ban outside of their physical walls, purely due to their numbers. So a player who is banned can indeed linger outside of the walls without technically metagaming the guards there. And indeed, at present, they can even start violence without technically metagaming the guards outside of the walls.
...
This is why the PC guard is encouraged to enforce the law in that buffer zone between the circles of security. Its why they can catch a banned individual lingering in their territory (though outside of their walls), and rightfully tell them that they need to leave or suffer consequences, even though the NPC guards aren't helping.


To sum this up: before the module update, the Dale NPC guard were scattered around and their numbers are thin. Right now with the new update, the NPC guards and golems are in your face, which means you are obliged to follow the rules and not metagame. The addition of the NPCs also means that it cuts the need for the PC guard to do their job. However, if we were to revert the outside save the wall, PCs will be able to enforce the laws outside the inner wall but we can't call someone for metagaming because the guards are not entitled to enforce the laws outside. However, it is still metagaming if you're completely just ignoring that racial gate guard, Skit and Holleye by doing what not.

As a last resort, if we were to revert everything back to how it was... it should be that the NPC guards and golems are placed back inside the inner wall. The wall doesn't need to be destroyed then, because the laws will still be the same as it were before and the PC guard can enforce the laws themselves- i.e the way it's worked before. Taking the wall out would be completely unnecessary and for no apparent reason, a waste of all the hard work put into it. The issue is the golems and guards.

Here is the link if you wanted to read more up on the quote.
http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=76091&p=1204193&hilit=#p1204193

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 21:07 PM 

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It's that the laws don't apply at all outside the inner walls now. As in, banned people aren't banned in that area. All the people who cause trouble will be allowed there, and there's nothing anyone can do without a DM to oversee it. Now should they start PVP, we can report them, but... that's the gist of the argument.


 
      
Krin
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 21:19 PM 



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I dunno, it seems like we're having a lot of trouble because we're trying to argue against common sense. Common sense would dictate that if there is a guard around and you're on Bendir land, it's metagaming if you engage in open PvP in front of them.

It's not logical that Bendir would put up walls around the land that has always been considered Bendir land and then suddenly decide not to enforce their laws on any of it anymore. This whole debate is pretty weird.


 
      
That Guy
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 21:24 PM 

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Krin wrote:
It's not logical that Bendir would put up walls around the land that has always been considered Bendir land and then suddenly decide not to enforce their laws on any of it anymore. This whole debate is pretty weird.


Yup.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 21:38 PM 

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That Guy wrote:
Krin wrote:
It's not logical that Bendir would put up walls around the land that has always been considered Bendir land and then suddenly decide not to enforce their laws on any of it anymore. This whole debate is pretty weird.


Yup.


thats the problem of playing a video game instead of actual pnp. people still need to get around, and bendir being a crossroads and major transport hub, and now visibly extending it's reach via militaristic means based on a former dm's ruling from 2013 is sudden and feels forced.

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Elyon
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 21:42 PM 



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Quote:
thats the problem of playing a video game instead of actual pnp. people still need to get around, and bendir being a crossroads and major transport hub, and now visibly extending it's reach via militaristic means based on a former dm's ruling from 2013 is sudden and feels forced.


It's not a ruling, it's a justification of how it's always been (before the module update). The DMs at the time were actively encouraging us to enforce the laws. But now with the NPCs set outside, this is no longer the case. Hence why I believe the wall on it's own has nothing to do with it.

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No_Dice_13
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 4:26 AM 

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I still say what msheeler suggested about moving the carts outside the wall settles this debate. With the carts outside we are allowed to have our laws in place in the outer wall areas that was already said. People can still move around them now and don;t have to come through if they don't want to. If you are a friend to Bendir you got nothing to worry about anyway and those that aren;t can cause whatever mischief outside the wall as they like without us being allowed to enforce any laws as it was stated they would only apply inside the town and outer wall area if the carts are moved out. A simple solution to this drawn out debate.

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Kudark
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 8:18 AM 

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There was a short time, when the carts were located near the water, on the north east side of the (old, before recent update) drawbridge. It didn't last long, and was deemed a failure, and was relocated again to its current location.

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Kamina
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 8:46 AM 

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msheeler wrote:
All that aside, if we determine that Bendir Dale PCs can PvP Mr. Evil in between the walls, why should we say that Mr. Evil can not PvP Bendir Dale PCs in the same place?


It's the same reason anyone would commit any crime that a PC guard would interfere with as much as an NPC guard: If Bendir Dale has a PC guard unit (which the Militia have been a very long standing one) then surely they have as much of a right to impose the laws as much as the DMs are more than happy to let other PC law units do? (See: Cordor, Kohlingen). I've not heard of any major city having issues of a PC guard enforcing the laws in front of NPC guards (most common being helmet issues) and I've never, ever heard before this thread that any DM would have an issue with a PC guard enforcing the laws.


Now, I'm not going in to why the walls were built in the first place, I'd hope the DM team were very aware of the reasons as I question why you'd let the change happen if you weren't, but I'm getting confused. We're having Tormak say we can enforce laws and do not need DM oversight but then we have you, msheeler, saying we do. Reading through the pages after both of these statements, it doesn't seem to have been clarified.

Are we, players who have been given permission by Bendir Dale to enforce the laws, able to enforce the OUTER WALLS laws (this being the section inbetween the old wall and the new wall) WITHOUT DM oversight?

This was never an issue BEFORE we built the outer wall, why is this an issue now? For an area infamously a magnet for PvP bloodlust, why does it feel like the DMs are trying their best to let the grievers come back in? I'm not saying we shouldn't have any evil or shady characters hanging about, but it seems like we're just welcoming the shitstorm of people who used to attack people by the carts back in to Bendir without actually having an IC way of dealing with it. As much as the guard unit at the time OOCly hated people being trigger happy and were always sending screenshots of people PvPing without much reason and in some cases pure metagaming, we always dealt with it ICly. So why are the DMs deciding Bendir Dale is the only place where we can't defend ourselves without DM oversight?

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 8:54 AM 

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Kamina wrote:
msheeler wrote:
All that aside, if we determine that Bendir Dale PCs can PvP Mr. Evil in between the walls, why should we say that Mr. Evil can not PvP Bendir Dale PCs in the same place?


It's the same reason anyone would commit any crime that a PC guard would interfere with as much as an NPC guard: If Bendir Dale has a PC guard unit (which the Militia have been a very long standing one) then surely they have as much of a right to impose the laws as much as the DMs are more than happy to let other PC law units do? (See: Cordor, Kohlingen). I've not heard of any major city having issues of a PC guard enforcing the laws in front of NPC guards (most common being helmet issues) and I've never, ever heard before this thread that any DM would have an issue with a PC guard enforcing the laws.


Now, I'm not going in to why the walls were built in the first place, I'd hope the DM team were very aware of the reasons as I question why you'd let the change happen if you weren't, but I'm getting confused. We're having Tormak say we can enforce laws and do not need DM oversight but then we have you, msheeler, saying we do. Reading through the pages after both of these statements, it doesn't seem to have been clarified.

Are we, players who have been given permission by Bendir Dale to enforce the laws, able to enforce the OUTER WALLS laws (this being the section inbetween the old wall and the new wall) WITHOUT DM oversight?

This was never an issue BEFORE we built the outer wall, why is this an issue now? For an area infamously a magnet for PvP bloodlust, why does it feel like the DMs are trying their best to let the grievers come back in? I'm not saying we shouldn't have any evil or shady characters hanging about, but it seems like we're just welcoming the shitstorm of people who used to attack people by the carts back in to Bendir without actually having an IC way of dealing with it. As much as the guard unit at the time OOCly hated people being trigger happy and were always sending screenshots of people PvPing without much reason and in some cases pure metagaming, we always dealt with it ICly. So why are the DMs deciding Bendir Dale is the only place where we can't defend ourselves without DM oversight?


Because the dale has stone walls with a race-gate that requires dm supervision to bypass, so if you wanna be safe stay inside the walls. The reason people congregated OUTSIDE in the first place was because the rules didn't apply there, and the carts were there. This has since been upended. I've also noticed PC's walking AROUND the dale outside the new walls rather then walking along the damn road, and the coveted 'rock spot' has been taken over by NPC cart vendors. The natural area to congregate has been utterly killed and an ugly wall was erected in its place. NOT TO MENTION the 'rules' sign is now INSIDE the walls, meaning its impossible to read the rules to see if your drow PC is in violation without breaking the laws you're trying to read.

If you wanna have a 'safe place' stay inside the race-gate wall. The rationale is that ten+ laws shouldn't suddenly extend to the biggest crossroads on the server, making a place only popular because of said crossroads, subject to this sudden and insane military presence and super ugly walls.

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Kamina
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 8:59 AM 

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Commie wrote:
Because the dale has stone walls with a race-gate that requires dm supervision to bypass, so if you wanna be safe stay inside the walls. The reason people congregated OUTSIDE in the first place was because the rules didn't apply there, and the carts were there. This has since been upended. I've also noticed PC's walking AROUND the dale rather then walking past it, and the coveted 'rock spot' has been taken over by NPC cart vendors. The natural area to congregate has been utterly killed and an ugly wall was erected in its place.

If you wanna have a 'safe place' stay inside the race-gate wall. The rationale is that ten+ laws shouldn't suddenly extend to the biggest crossroads on the server, making a place only popular because of said crossroads, subject to this sudden and insane military presence and super ugly walls.

The rules did not "not" apply outside the gates and never had. They had their own seperate rules which were enforced. This has all suddenly changed and become an issue now we have these new walls. Why? They literally do not change anything about Bendir Dale. The gap between the inner and outer walls have the exact same laws as before and now we're having an issue because "big ugly walls" are here?

Again, if the DMs were EVER concerned with the wall building that we have been doing for OVER A YEAR, why is it only when it is in fruition that there's an issue? This thread was started because "Shadier types were concerned the walls mean they can't be shady." This isn't the case. The walls are here because 1. Bendir Dale is inbetween 3 big monster hotspots (Orcs, Trolls and Mylocks, all have attack Bendir on multiple occasions) and 2. A couple of IC plots which, may I add, a DM has run made it so the Hin voted in unison (and even the ELDERS agreed, so there was NPC contribution too) that the walls should be built.

I need to reiterate, the ONLY THING THAT HAS CHANGED is that there is now a big ugly wall on the outer bit of Bendir Dale, I don't understand where nearly all of this debate has come from.

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serbiris
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 9:40 AM 

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Not really too fussed about inner/outer jurisdiction - this has always been the argument with Bendir Dale, and that's why the carts were moved before. They were moved back because it had killed walk-in RP. I don't think it's a good idea to move the carts again, but up to you guys really. You can always change it back.

What really bothers me is the idea that these trolls, mylocks and orcs are just twiddling their thumbs while their nearest raid target happily undertakes a massive (and while I'm sure they had help, those palisades really are massive!) construction effort that will prevent them from getting food/resources/slaves/whatever it is they attack Bendir for. If they were so little a threat that they can't stop you putting up the wall, why do you actually need a wall?

Palisades are easier to assemble than stone walls, but it still takes weeks - possibly longer seeing as bigger-than-hin sized labour might have to be imported. And this is when the enemy is far away, or otherwise prevented from advancing. At any point during the construction of a single side a serious raid should have occurred (considering all three threats have enough wisdom to fight strategically), at least a few workers and sentries would have died before reinforcements came in, if they were successful (and if no coordinated assault occurred). Trolls can smash wood and both orcs and mylocks have mastered fire, which was an important weapon in medieval siegeworks if your wasn't building a stone fort, so realistically they'd put you back to square one (or back a few paces at least).

Now, I do understand why PCs would want to put them up. It is a completely normal thing to desire safety for your community from danger. But I believe they should not have been able to succeed. But it happened, and that's a creative decision made by the powers that be, and I fear we are moving towards the problem of making the world too safe - allowing every settlement-faction to build and expand freely by not presenting enough active threats or external goals. I mean we know we can't just exterminate the threats - it's a game where you kill monsters for exp, and lowbies have to do something to level up. So we are encouraged to work towards building our arsenal in preparation for future threats. And naturally we expect that work to pay off - we've been led to believe it will for years now. And we like change, it makes the server feel a bit fresher. It's good that something has happened with Bendir Dale. But what happens now? Either you stop worrying about the local threats (they are only dangerous when a DM is active in the area after all) because you will always have bigger guns, or those defences meet with the in-universe reason that these monsters haven't been wiped out after years of being slaughtered by adventurers, and those walls come down. Neither of them sound like great outcomes.

But look, I also get that you guys don't feel good about the prospect of having a choice of events between: troll raids, orc raids, mylock raids, until the end of time. DMs occasionally like to use those guys but not often, and it would feel very tired. Honestly I think the answer is just: let adventurers trim their numbers, and if one of them gets rowdy (DM involved), respond accordingly. Yeah, that brings us to preventable collateral - "We lost farms in that last raid because nobody had the brains to build a wall!" at which point we suggest that building a wall might incite further raids or even force cooperation between the three (or more, did I miss some?) tribes leading to greater damage. Nothing changes if we go this route, but at least we are no longer taking the slow, inexorable march to a conquered and empty Amia.

That's what I see, anyway. Now I try to keep an eye on what goes on and have been for a few years, but obviously I'll have a different perspective on the specifics. My gut reaction is that those palisades make Bendir look less like a well-defended but peaceful pastoral frontier and more like a war zone ready to pop. It looks dangerous and unfriendly. It's like an army truck parked itself on your street and armed troops got out and started patrolling. Sure, your street is technically safer, but would you feel more or less at peace? Those walls say "We need these walls", and while I'm sure that's true some of the time based on events I have observed... If you double down on that, you're entering or finishing an arms race. Is that what you want?

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 10:24 AM 

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Nice post Serbris


 
      
Elyon
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 12:33 PM 



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I actually think your Serberis' post raises a very important question. But first I'd like to summarise: as many have said on this topic, that we were infact aiming to build a stonewall. All our in game efforts are based around this for the past year. The materials we collected. The IG planning. The reasons why we used stone instead of any other material.

So you might ask, why was the first module update of the wall suddenly changed into wood? That was simply because we had a limit on filesize. Using the tileset instead of the PLCs (PLCs are very taxing on filesize), there are two walls. The current inner wall and the previous wooden wall from the first module update. Of course we opted for the wooden one because it made sense in-game for the defense. However, for our current module update, the walls are still wooden AND we're using PLCs so filesize is no longer an excuse. So despite all the IG efforts we put into that wall, why wasn't it changed back to stone?

Back to Serberis' point. I know we're all subconsciously thinking this (I'll be the brave person to say this) that a wooden wall was decided because it had to be liable, especially in the face of this topic. An IG excuse was needed if the wall was to be destroyed. As it was put:
serbiris wrote:
Trolls can smash wood and both orcs and mylocks have mastered fire, which was an important weapon in medieval siegeworks if your wasn't building a stone fort, so realistically they'd put you back to square one (or back a few paces at least).

Sadly to me, it seems like this is intentional. Serberis is right, it does look like a war zone ready to pop, but that's not what we intended. And for us suddenly to be told 'Is that what you want?'- was this really in our hands? That's a slap in the face. Considering the dramatic changes made from the intentional IC and IG implementation to the unintentional OOC module updates that we had no control over (from the Bendir playerbases' point of view). This all feels like a forced setup. An ultimatum:
serbiris wrote:
But what happens now? Either you stop worrying about the local threats (they are only dangerous when a DM is active in the area after all) because you will always have bigger guns, or those defences meet with the in-universe reason that these monsters haven't been wiped out after years of being slaughtered by adventurers, and those walls come down. Neither of them sound like great outcomes.


If we do go along with these current wooden Palisades, would putting our IG efforts to enhance it to iron wood make a difference? Would the team actually agree to this?- My point above thinks 'no', and I hope I'm wrong on that. I mean this genuinely and with no disrespect of course, could a DM explain to us why it was agreed upon for having the walls made out of wood and not stone?

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serbiris
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 14:28 PM 

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I apologise for any offence - but, I feel my point wasn't taken correctly. From what I understand of your reply, you believe Bendir Dale should have a stone wall where the new wooden one appeared. My position is that any wall - no matter the material - would be a mistake. Now, that's just what I feel and I acknowledge we have different priorities, perspectives, reasonings. That's the basis for any discussion. As a courtesy I'm going to scour the rest of this thread in case I've missed something major (I've read a lot of the posts, especially the first ~50 and the last ~30, but not all of them) so we're not talking past each other but bear with me while I clarify.

First I'm going to defend the dev decision to make it a palisade rather than a stone wall. I do think palisade is preferrable from a realism standpoint - it takes a lot less time and engineering skill to build a palisade wall than a stone wall. Stone walls take much longer to build - for the size of Bendir we're talking months of uninterrupted labour. That means every raid is a setback, just like palisades. A lot of what medieval engineers would do is yeah, erect a palisade, then a stone wall because it basically didn't add too much time and got security in quickly. I do not think a palisade was built specifically so it could be torn down - though if it was, I would not think that is a bad thing overall. Again we're talking about walling off the food/resource/whatever supply of three mostly-sapient tribes and it is in their best interest to stop you. That means your militia is either doing double shifts for half a year all around town or you're calling in outside help (and lucky for you, DMs don't charge for those logistics!), like Kohl or Cordor or Barak Runedar or whoever wants the free diplomatic boost for their faction. Basically you've got an army. In fact, you have two armies - you + allies, and them (and they would probably unite). In order to build a wall, you basically have to start (well, trigger) a war.

Now, has this come up before? If it hasn't, that's understandable - running a war would take a lot of DM attention and most of them would probably rather run their own plots than worry about the geopolitical fallout from a town stacking some rocks. Plus, wars are hard to run, just ask the DMs who've run them in the past few years. Oh, most of them left, because it's exhausting. Right. So in the wall-building process it's reasonable for the DMs to just let it happen, or not really think about this stuff, it happens. It's a big module. But it has led to this situation where people are (or at least I'm) not really sure why you needed to build a wall against a power too puny to even try to stop you. It is incongruous that your enemies are at once so threatening and so powerless. Pick one. That's my real question to pro-wallers: how do you reconcile the IC need for the wall, with the visible lack of need? Will a stone wall make you feel safe, or is overmilitarisation (in the name of safety) putting Bendir down a path you're not sure you want to go? These are fascinating questions from a meta-IC standpoint - I love the idea of Bendir as a society being challenged to choose safety or their traditional image. But the choice needs to actually matter.

I know it might come up as a bit rude for me to wait for the palisades to come up before I shout "This is wrong, this is a mistake". Except I did talk about this before - in September of last year:

Quote:
DMs should come down harder on people trying to (re)build shit. Right now it's too easy to validate RP towards making the server safe and boring. Now that's a very in character thing to want, so I'd hesitate to say it's the players' fault for wanting this or even the DM's fault for letting us. Now, generating stuff to threaten construction takes DM time, and that's not a limitless resource. The solution here would be to stop allowing PCs to draw from limitless resource mines - have clear-cut logging have an actual consequence. Make it a big deal trying to find good stone quarries. Have mines run dry and need maintenance and shit. Punch wizards why try to circumvent the system with magic. DMs rightly made destruction difficult to ease work off devs, but maybe we should make construction even harder to stop the world being minecrafted into the ultimate safe (and boring) haven.


Not to say all this happened (yet) but take note of the threats that have been popping up in DM events lately.

I'd be against Ironwood for similar reasons - not only is it much harder to work than wood, especially fashioning it into large stakes, but as I understand it Ironwood is kinda rare (or only really available when druids enchant it - though it seems dangerous to have two different source types for ironwood). Getting enough to make a difference would be tricky, and it gives the impression that we can just throw the expensive versions of regular materials out of our infinite money bags and get results. I disagree with this.

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 14:51 PM 

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Elon, I think you're being overly paranoid and over evaluating the this. There is no nefarious plan to "destroy the walls". Wood was chosen because that plc worked and stone walls of that size do take years to build, not months.

All that aside I do work for the server for free. I spend hours and hours doing the work, trying my best to make every one as happy as they can be made, to find the best compromise between all the players, all the DMs, and what actually can be done in the toolset. Frankly some of you are coming off as the most ungrateful, stubborn, spoiled brats I've ever run across, and I am closer and closer to just saying that the original approval to do this which was poorly thought out and not communicated well at all should just be entirely reconed, the hell with the complainers, they're going to complain anyways.

That doesn't apply to all of you, but it's starting to apply to enough of you that my general opinion is that a large part of this community really has no ability to empathize or compromise.

Thanks to those of you who have been willing to try and work with me on this to reach a best possible solution. Thanks to those that have PMed me with your willingness to help, but to those of you who can only complain and carry on about how someone is trying to stick it to you, you really need to get over it.


 
      
The1Kobra
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 15:06 PM 

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My perspective...

When I was a DM, Bendir was always something of an anomaly in regards to it's PvP rules. PvP was not allowed on the inside without a DM, but it was allowed on the outside without one. Since they were in the same 'zone', it got a little confusing. It wasn't like Cordor East and Cordor Central, Cordor Central has no guards, and you're allowed to PvP to your hearts content. Transition one zone over to Cordor East and it's no PvP, guards all over. Same with the inside of structures. It was a guarded city, after all.

Bendir I gather from the aesthetic is supposed to be a happy, welcoming town of happy go hin. Except, considering how the server is, the lightly guarded atmosphere allows any PC who wants to go on a random killing spree easy access to people to kill, and the ability to legally do it. This happened quite a lot. If you dig up old threads, you'll see how players easily got exasperated from being constantly dragged into random PvP, day after day, which changed the aesthetic of the place from a happy hin town to a dangerous, wild place where people were murdered for walking down the road. I felt the same way on Kurchin in the Triumvir for a time too. He got attacked in PvP about every other day (no joke), by various people just looking for a fight, so soon the place of happy bards became a random murderer's slaughterhouse where nothing was musical.

It does allow more freedom, and a PvP fight, if done well, is enjoyable. It can be overdone though, and when one's PC is dragged into PvP on a daily basis it can start to lose it's charm, as has happened with Bendir Dale.

Adding more guards and walls on an IC level, does make sense, because of how much random violence the hin have had to go through, from wandering monsters and the hellball in the streets adventurers. I'm sure some of us remember how hectic Cordor could be with the PvP in the streets, and how it lost it's charm after a while and someone throwing a hellball became something people rolled their eyes at rather than responding to it as a shocking, tragic event.

At least, the way I see it from a 'rules' perspective, it's now PvP protected so the psychomurderers can no longer go kill everyone that want without a DM, which has it's ups and downs. People can still go through no problem unless they're so dangerous that they must be kept out lest they go on yet another murderspree. Keep in mind, most of those 'murderspree' PCs can just come back over and over and over again if the PvP rules were relaxed, and this has happened before. On the flipside it does cut down on some of the potentially fun action sequences that can be enjoyable when handled properly.

The way the rules are set up it's kind of set up to be one extreme or another, I guess you'll just have to ask yourselves which one you prefer.

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Kamina
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 15:24 PM 

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Kamina wrote:

Are we, players who have been given permission by Bendir Dale to enforce the laws, able to enforce the OUTER WALLS laws (this being the section inbetween the old wall and the new wall) WITHOUT DM oversight?


Personally all I would like is a unanimous consensus on this. I hope I've not come across as a spoiled brat, I'm just confused what to do in regards to the above. We welcome shady characters in to Bendir, but if the "bad" stuff about the hypothetical PC joins the rumour mill, people will stare and may be confrontational, as is the Hins love of gossip.

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Elyon
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 15:42 PM 



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No offense taken at all Serberis, we all have our perspectives! Msheeler, I apologise if I came off as aggressive, ungrateful etc... of course that's not my intention. I'm grateful that my question was answered and I now understand the reasoning behind it. My view is that it'll be difficult and strange to say we made the wall out of wood but I am grateful for the effort in putting any walls up regardless of the material. By no means am I saying that the wall will be destroyed, but I was raising the question if it's worth still making them sturdier as much as stone given all the IG effort & reasoning for using stone. You seemed to agree with Serberis' point. Although this should be left for another time then.

I still think that the NPC militia & golems should relate to the idea of 'enforcing the laws' and other PC issues, and the new walls relate to the idea of 'events and plotlines' rather than mixing the two together. I'm not at all concerned about the PCs not being able to enforce the laws themselves if NPCs now cover the area, but quite skeptical with the other leading implications/ consequences we'll have to make IG for an OOC problem such as this. Changing the laws doesn't make sense for the setting. I'm still ambivalent mind you, so I'm open to ideas. Only slightly leaning more towards placing the carts elsewhere.

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 17:01 PM 

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If I am one that came across as unyielding and uncompromising, I apologize. That was never my intent.

After some thought, and stepping away for a day from this topic, I've come to the conclusion that the outer walls are something that should be kept, I disagree they need to be wood, but, I'm not going to quibble. The issue I have, and many others likely, is the amount of military presence in the Dale now. I'm much prefer our golems be moved inside and reduce the number of militia outside our gates to the two at the Main Racial gate. If we aren't required to enforce the laws in that area, we shouldn't have such a large military presence there.

I've come to accept the reasoning of our laws not being enforced outside of the gates, and honestly, I'm fine with it as presented. We can keep the peace as we always have. Without such a large force of guardsmen in that area, keeping the peace will fall to the PC's present, rather than DM's having to deal with problems.

The carts... I prefer their original location, not at "The Rock", but that is just me. I think it allows a more sizeable area for roleplay.

While I can appreciate the sheer amount of time necessary to make changes, I also want people to realize that this is a compromise all around, everyone is compromising in some way. I do hope we can come to some conclusion that both makes IC sense and appeases everyone to a point where we can continue forward without this issue returning again.


 
      
No_Dice_13
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 17:04 PM 

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I would just like to add that we did do extensive rp to help ensure our workers were protected during construction. We made arrangements with Barak Runedar and they sent a squad of dwarves down to help defend the Dale during the improvements. Several dwarf players can back this up as well as the DM that rpd sending the dwarves down. As it stands currently there are 20+ Shield Maiden dwarves standing guard around the Dale. So just wanted to clarify that we did take precautions as to assume there would be problems during the building.

Now back to the issue if moving the carts outside the wall is going to cause too much trouble for players then perhaps we can do something a bit simpler. What is we were to take down the walls as they seem to be the biggest issue and replace them with at least a slightly better defended areas by the south, east and west. Maybe some mini pallisade walls with an extra ballista? Something to signify the Dale beefing up their defenses while still maintaining that Dale feel? I was part of this rp for the walls and defense and Dicey was at the time Captain of the militia and made a lot of the suggestions for the way the wall was to be placed. Now I don't want our rp to be thrown out entirely over this issue as it was fun rp. I can say the main goal for the rp was to improve Dale defenses against local threats so why don't we think of ways that we can implement that without the Dale looking like a giant warzone because even I admit with the new walls in place it does look like we are expecting a big battle to take place soon. I think a few smaller simpler placements and blockades of sorts may be a good compromise. Also I have worked in the toolset before and I am pretty sure you can use the axis to lower the walls in to the ground, would that help making them look a bit smaller and more managable rp wise to look like hin and dwarves built it?

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 17:06 PM 

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// The shield maidens were recalled several days ago.


 
      
msheeler
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 17:15 PM 

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@No Dice - many of our wall playables only have path blocking at the base, that means that if you lower them on the z-axis by 0.01 they no longer path block, you just walk right through them.


 
      
Couch_Ninja
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 17:25 PM 



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Here's another idea, as I doubt either Bendir or the Staff is really happy with the existence of the palisade. We could preserve the most out of this mess if we retconned it so that Bendir was fortifying and arming the inner walls instead of building an outer wall. I mean. That seems more attractive than a palisade to me. Sorry that it cost you 8 hours of work, msheeler. But it took a year of work to get a stone wall.

Move the golems inside somewhere.
Make the existing stone wall a tad thicker, add battlements behind them, with balistae on top of them.
Maybe an additional tower or two.
Some broad iron fencing across the bodies of water, if it looks good.

Then the entire outer ring could simply be forgotten about. Again, I'd like to draft a test example of it in the toolset if I had the Bendir area at my disposal. Even if the idea is not indulged.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 18:09 PM 

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serbiris wrote:
Snip;

That's what I see, anyway. Now I try to keep an eye on what goes on and have been for a few years, but obviously I'll have a different perspective on the specifics. My gut reaction is that those palisades make Bendir look less like a well-defended but peaceful pastoral frontier and more like a war zone ready to pop. It looks dangerous and unfriendly. It's like an army truck parked itself on your street and armed troops got out and started patrolling. Sure, your street is technically safer, but would you feel more or less at peace? Those walls say "We need these walls", and while I'm sure that's true some of the time based on events I have observed... If you double down on that, you're entering or finishing an arms race. Is that what you want?


I agree. Well said.

msheeler wrote:
All that aside I do work for the server for free. I spend hours and hours doing the work, trying my best to make every one as happy as they can be made, to find the best compromise between all the players, all the DMs, and what actually can be done in the toolset. Frankly some of you are coming off as the most ungrateful, stubborn, spoiled brats I've ever run across, and I am closer and closer to just saying that the original approval to do this which was poorly thought out and not communicated well at all should just be entirely reconed, the hell with the complainers, they're going to complain anyways.


Yikes.

The1Kobra wrote:
At least, the way I see it from a 'rules' perspective, it's now PvP protected so the psychomurderers can no longer go kill everyone that want without a DM, which has it's ups and downs. People can still go through no problem unless they're so dangerous that they must be kept out lest they go on yet another murderspree. Keep in mind, most of those 'murderspree' PCs can just come back over and over and over again if the PvP rules were relaxed, and this has happened before. On the flipside it does cut down on some of the potentially fun action sequences that can be enjoyable when handled properly.


Thing is the 'pvp psycho murderers' just do it anyway then log for months. If pvp rules arn't literally forced people just do whatever. It's why Wiltun and some zones are no-pvp period, but that is a problem in and of itself as people just respond to some threats by porting to Wiltun and taunting their aggressor who followed them, as it's no-pvp.

That Guy wrote:
If I am one that came across as unyielding and uncompromising, I apologize. That was never my intent.

After some thought, and stepping away for a day from this topic, I've come to the conclusion that the outer walls are something that should be kept, I disagree they need to be wood, but, I'm not going to quibble. The issue I have, and many others likely, is the amount of military presence in the Dale now. I'm much prefer our golems be moved inside and reduce the number of militia outside our gates to the two at the Main Racial gate. If we aren't required to enforce the laws in that area, we shouldn't have such a large military presence there.

I've come to accept the reasoning of our laws not being enforced outside of the gates, and honestly, I'm fine with it as presented. We can keep the peace as we always have. Without such a large force of guardsmen in that area, keeping the peace will fall to the PC's present, rather than DM's having to deal with problems.

The carts... I prefer their original location, not at "The Rock", but that is just me. I think it allows a more sizeable area for roleplay.

While I can appreciate the sheer amount of time necessary to make changes, I also want people to realize that this is a compromise all around, everyone is compromising in some way. I do hope we can come to some conclusion that both makes IC sense and appeases everyone to a point where we can continue forward without this issue returning again.


I agree 100%.

Couch_Ninja wrote:
Here's another idea, as I doubt either Bendir or the Staff is really happy with the existence of the palisade. We could preserve the most out of this mess if we retconned it so that Bendir was fortifying and arming the inner walls instead of building an outer wall. I mean. That seems more attractive than a palisade to me. Sorry that it cost you 8 hours of work, msheeler. But it took a year of work to get a stone wall.

Move the golems inside somewhere.
Make the existing stone wall a tad thicker, add battlements behind them, with balistae on top of them.
Maybe an additional tower or two.
Some broad iron fencing across the bodies of water, if it looks good.

Then the entire outer ring could simply be forgotten about. Again, I'd like to draft a test example of it in the toolset if I had the Bendir area at my disposal. Even if the idea is not indulged.


I agree 100%. You could put some little steps/platforms up too so you could be inside and look over the walls. Put the ballaste up there so they can shoot at threats. Stick some golems in the back in like a 3x3 formation, ready to be activated when a threat comes.

I'd also say have a regular wood gate by the Troll Zone too because it's like RIGHT THERE, but other then that, leave it open.

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The1Kobra
 
PostPosted: Sat, Mar 19 2016, 18:59 PM 

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Commie wrote:
The1Kobra wrote:
At least, the way I see it from a 'rules' perspective, it's now PvP protected so the psychomurderers can no longer go kill everyone that want without a DM, which has it's ups and downs. People can still go through no problem unless they're so dangerous that they must be kept out lest they go on yet another murderspree. Keep in mind, most of those 'murderspree' PCs can just come back over and over and over again if the PvP rules were relaxed, and this has happened before. On the flipside it does cut down on some of the potentially fun action sequences that can be enjoyable when handled properly.


Thing is the 'pvp psycho murderers' just do it anyway then log for months. If pvp rules arn't literally forced people just do whatever. It's why Wiltun and some zones are no-pvp period, but that is a problem in and of itself as people just respond to some threats by porting to Wiltun and taunting their aggressor who followed them, as it's no-pvp.

To clarify, before the walls and guards expansion, PvP was legal in Bendir Dale beyond the inner walls, and it happened a lot. It is different, because if someone were to PvP in Cordor without a DM's supervision, you can be sure a DM would come knocking and have a talk with those involved. This wasn't the case on the exterior of Bendir's walls, where only the regular PvP rules apply, and happened rather often.

Mind, having some wildness and PvP isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is something that can be handled in poor taste too. (AKA: like the old daily hellballs in the street Cordor had, which, okay, it's an exaggeration, but you get the point).

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Elyon
 
PostPosted: Mon, Mar 21 2016, 20:59 PM 



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Joined: 01 Mar 2012
Location: UK

Couch_Ninja wrote:
Here's another idea, as I doubt either Bendir or the Staff is really happy with the existence of the palisade. We could preserve the most out of this mess if we retconned it so that Bendir was fortifying and arming the inner walls instead of building an outer wall. I mean. That seems more attractive than a palisade to me. Sorry that it cost you 8 hours of work, msheeler. But it took a year of work to get a stone wall.

Move the golems inside somewhere.
Make the existing stone wall a tad thicker, add battlements behind them, with balistae on top of them.
Maybe an additional tower or two.
Some broad iron fencing across the bodies of water, if it looks good.

Then the entire outer ring could simply be forgotten about. Again, I'd like to draft a test example of it in the toolset if I had the Bendir area at my disposal. Even if the idea is not indulged.


After going through this topic and the recent posts, I think I prefer Couch_Ninja's plan.

The1Kobra's pretty much nailed it on the head. Having stuck with the Bendir playerbase for well, as long as I've been here, the players themselves felt drained out. The atmosphere was quite bitter and toxic. The purest intention for putting the golems and NPCs out was to prevent Bendir from being a warzone of baseless conflict and a toxic place, the current changes worked very well in this aspect. Never was it planned for evilly forcing others to play by our rules. The wall itself was for the plot and made perfect sense in game. Bendir will probably have some raids over the course in the future.

So back to Couch Ninja's idea. I don't mind whether the NPCs hence DMs will be the ones to supervise and enforce the laws, or if the Bendir PCs want to do it. We can't have both. I think the Bendir community needs to ask themselves if they want to handle all the PvP and conflict. Admittedly, it would be fun to see some action, but I'm curious to whether the players themselves will feel too unhealthily drained out like in the past. I don't know if I'd be naive to say that everyone's grown and players no longer treat the server and area like a PvP zone- in other words, the trolls. From my experience in Bendir, it's an on and off thing, eventually they leave and it's probably why I never felt overly exhausted from this.

I would like to see that some accomplishment was made over the last year according to the plot and the in-game on-goings. That all the hard work of the players have paid off in some way. Couch_Ninja's idea puts that into consideration. Yes, it might be awkward to say that everything's changed and suddenly there is no longer an outer wall but the inner wall is upgraded. I'm sure we can work our way around that. This might also make the players of shadey characters happier too, since it's the way it was before. I completely understand that msheeler has put eight hours of work into our module, so would it be okay if Couch_Ninja works around the area module file and pitches in his idea?

Initially I never was fond of moving the carts as it detracts roleplay, however, I was less fond of changing the laws in game as it also leads to more in-game immersion breaking problems. Eventually some changes will need to be made. The community will need to go through some form of sacrifice to how it is. So in preference, and to give my clear opinion. From favoured to least favoured:
1) Couch_Ninja's idea
2) Moving the carts
3) Changing the laws IG

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No_Dice_13
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 22 2016, 15:05 PM 

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I like Couch_Ninja's idea too but I would like to see at least some wooden blockades or something by the troll and Mylock transitions just something simple to signify the Dale doing something to help slow down an attack should there be one. And we don't need to make the walls thicker but I like the idea of battle placements we can walk up on with a ballista there that would be cool. And as for explaining the the wall not being there well that is as simple as one DM having fun and doing a simple event in which the Dale gets attacked by trolls or orcs? and they burn down and destroy or walls? That leading us to decide that fortifying our existing wall is a better suited plan then what we did with the outer wall. A simple RP solution to the problem?

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Tue, Mar 22 2016, 15:12 PM 

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Joined: 13 Nov 2014

No_Dice_13 wrote:
I like Couch_Ninja's idea too but I would like to see at least some wooden blockades or something by the troll and Mylock transitions just something simple to signify the Dale doing something to help slow down an attack should there be one. And we don't need to make the walls thicker but I like the idea of battle placements we can walk up on with a ballista there that would be cool. And as for explaining the the wall not being there well that is as simple as one DM having fun and doing a simple event in which the Dale gets attacked by trolls or orcs? and they burn down and destroy or walls? That leading us to decide that fortifying our existing wall is a better suited plan then what we did with the outer wall. A simple RP solution to the problem?


Pretty much what I suggested, and I approve.

That said, I wasn't involved with the rp of creating the wall, just saw it on forums and heard about it IC. My opinion of it therefore may not be as strong as those directly involved and I don't want to step on toes. I realize I'm rather new to the Dale, but... not really, I have other char's that lived there too in the past. What am I trying to say?

I just want this settled so we can move forward. It'd be nice if everyone got their way, but that's simply not possible. The above compromise, with our without extra battlements sounds fine to me. I'd like to see much less militia outside the inner walls and even within town. Ally walked out her door (waaay in the back near the shrines) and nearly bumped into a militiaman. My personal reaction was.... "The hell is he doing back here?".


 
      
That Guy
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 23 2016, 15:21 PM 

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Joined: 13 Nov 2014

In addition, I'd like to ask what the rules are right now for the area outside Bendir's Gates? Issues are beginning to occur and my character, being the Marshall has to enforce the rules. So... in order to do that, I need the DM team to please tell us what they are currently so I can roleplay it properly. I'm not asking what the proposed future ruling is, what is it right now, today, as it stands before anything is changed.

Thank you!


 
      
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