Except the Grove ban isn't any different from ours. You can still pass through their forest. It's just if any PCs catch you, you're in trouble.

The Roadwarden isn't affiliated with anyone, including the Grove and the Dale. So there's really no guards to speak of you'd be metagaming. Unless you go inside the gated parts of the Grove, then that'd be metagaming.

As for the Shrine, I don't know how much clearer the Shrine can be. It has two distinctly marked exits and only two exits, with everything contained in a small map across the shore. Also with clearly visible guardians on both entrances.

People in the Shrine has claimed right outside of Kampo's is Shrine territory but that's as relevant as Winyans saying Minmir Bridge belongs to them. Not really enforceable in those regions either.

Either way, if you want to do something about it, you have the option to actually do something about it IC. We really don't have it any different than the Grove or the Shrine in terms of a ban.

Well the cart system is all just an IC explanation for a useful OOC mechanic to allow people to get about more easilly, and really what it is used for by players in this case is more important to consider than the IC Fluff. Although really the cart thing is a very small concern relatively.

As for trying to "expand" the dale... that seems like it would only increase the issues since it would still be in the middle of everything and then you get into the position of making anyone who doesn't want to take massive detours metagame guard by passing through.

Better way would be to IC and OOC have guards that are there to monitor the walls and everything inside (And the crops/whatever) but not the roads or other area around the dale. This would allow for people to pass trough and around the dale without meta gaming guards but also then mean that if people were meta gaming by attempting to mess with the town itself then there is no mistake about intentions or degree of meta gaming. (The only greyish area is people endangering the town from the road or something but that clearly would fall under the "protecting the town itself" position of the guards and be clear meta gaming)

If you want to stop the meta gaming and have DMs enforce it you need to clear away as much of the possibility for very "minor" meta gaming so that when people actually do meta game it is clear that it was a strong and obvious violation that should be dealt with.


Edit: The cart thing is mostly my opinion. Plus I wanted giant riding weasels anyway! (Although seriously not saying the cart IC stuff isn't important but rather that the cart system exists because of the OOC so that always should be kept in mind).

That's not true. We've actually RPed with the Cart System people on this very issue. We can't dismiss things that's part of Amia and go, "Eh it's just fluff! It doesn't matter!" It kind of makes having a setting entirely pointless.



This bit though, I do agree. But most of our frustrations really doesn't come from banned people outside the wall. It's not really the fact that they're banned that's a problem. The Dale bans quite a large number of people. Some people really just doesn't know that you can't come into the Dale as a XYZ.

The problem, really, is that if and when someone is banned and they come in, it's hardly ever, "Oh. I'm sorry! I didn't know!" or "*ICly leaves quickly*". It's either 1) stay and argue with us for at least half an hour or more, even though they too acknowledge they are banned and/or 2) attack and kill us inside the Dale, even though they're the one that shouldn't be there in the first place.

Banned people that's there is at best a minor annoyance. It happens everywhere. I see it in other places too. But people in Cordor or Kohlingen or Winya don't get killed inside these settlements repeatedly on a frequent basis by banned people, after this person ICly and OOCly acknowledging they are in fact banned and they are knowingly metagaming us by our NPC guards. That's the difference.

Yes, they do.

Ask the Tarkuulians, the Chromatics, the evil UD subraces and even some assassins. Just because Bendir will ask any banned person to leave, does not mean your character will suffer any RP loss.

Hell, here's an OOC hint, the Grove do the same but can't cover the whole forest easily. Wait for Dale citizens to walk up and devour them!

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Interesting, I read a post in this thread from someone who frequently metagames the Bendir guards, with multiple characters. Twice in one day, and the second time right in front of a DM, who was playerside, inside the gates. Oh, and I won't even mention the metagaming tells I ignore too. Then has the balls to say we need DM support? Oh, the hypocrisy!

As for the extent of the laws in Bendir Dale:
Read rule number ten on the damn sign, it clearly states the laws are in effect on Bendir lands, and where those lands extend to.

The problem lies in everyone assuming that the laws mean inside the gates. Read the sign.

Frankly, I'm tired of the metagaming that goes on in Bendir. It is the absolute worst place on the server for it. I don't understand how people can want to be in a place, and choose to go there, then cry like little bitches when someone breaks a rule, and gets spanked for it. All I hear are arguments about how stupid the rules are, which means jack shit what 'you' think of the rules, the fact is, the rules are there, and if you don't like them, take your unhappy ass out, and find somewhere else to ruin RP. Another problem is all the people who think they can just enforce the rules as they please, because they 'stand here all the time'. When do you see Bendir militia, or even non-guard characters try that shit in Cordor, or Kohlingen? Um, almost never. Why? Because for some reason they respect the authority there, and not in Bendir. No other place on the server has as much conflict, on a regular basis, as Bendir.

This happens almost daily...in front of NPC guards.

As far as the DM's are concerned, I think they do a fine job, and if you think they don't see what's going on, then you're just plain wrong. I have gotten several DC's just this week, when my character was in quite obscure places, where few ever go, and we were roleplaying. That tells me, that the DM's are active, and do search the server. Not long ago, my character spoke to an NPC guard, and got a response, and help in a combat situation. It was completely unexpected. Last week, Drerem "coughed", as my character bought something, it literally scared the shit out of me, and made me laugh at myself. The DM's are everywhere, and just because 'you' don't see them right where 'you' are, doesn't mean they aren't there at all. Granted, I do think Bendir needs a little love. Since Gunz left, the forest and Bendir, have suffered for DM events. The cool little random events are greatly appreciated, but players are leaving the server because of the frustration in Bendir Dale. (one of the reasons I took a break too).

I'm sorry if I don't have a great solution here, but the problem lies mostly in the players, and how they control their characters, only 'you' can stop that. All the crying in the world won't make it stop. Wanna know why we don't have nice things? Learn how to respect the things you have first. Maybe the DM team is just as frustrated, and leaves it alone until we can all play nice there. It's a fucking halfling village, it's supposed to be fun...and it just isn't anymore. On the other hand, I am glad to see more halfling characters on lately, and it seems like the village it should be, it's just all the bull that we have to deal with, makes it unbearable to be there.

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I'd like to add some positivity. Thanks for Amarice for watching over the Dale's RP now and then and the same to Dustspray, who Toby also helped diffuse potential PvP via a chair.

I hope a new Dale DM can be added not solely for this issue, but to help enhance our RP, to which has been growing a lot.

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Kudark's post reminded me of something which came up a little while back. It was in relation to Drow in Bendir Dale, and Hackums mentioned this.

The point is that Hackums is suggesting that NPC's in Bendir Dale are not able to enforce the law outside of the gates to the same capacity, but that it is appropriate for the PC's to do so. It means that banned people passing through, whether it's kill on sight or not, hiding near the carts, etc, becomes iffy on whether it's metagaming guards or acceptable. So I'd put this question to the DMs. Can a DM comment on what is and is not acceptable behavior in front of the guard at the south gate, and the two at the north-east gate?

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Just lurking about!

My view is that there are some serious problems which deserve discussion. These are not in order of importance.

1) DM coverage – Manarethan has stepped down. He was my go-to DM for Bendir. Who is it now? I’m not sure. The area has changed hands a few times going all the way back even before GothicSauce was the DM here. Lack of consistency and ownership in this area is a factor, though not the driving force which is player behavior. Now, to the point already made, some areas are sharing DM’s and do not have ample coverage either. The difference I think is that Bendir is a highly visited area. We have a consistent number of players based here and a large number of visitors. I’m not convinced some of these problems couldn’t be avoided, in part, by DM coverage. If it’s rulebreaking and metagaming that’s the problem I’m afraid only DM enforcement is going to end it. Whether it’s real time or after the fact.

2) Mapping. It’s a single map with a walled interior but a large portion of the town is outside the walls. Transportation and all transitions are outside the walls. You cannot get off the map without going outside the walls. Compare this to other single map towns like Uhm which has transportation inside the walls, and almost nothing outside the walls but thin transition areas. Or Wharftown with no walls. You wouldn’t dare assume that their Laws do not apply to the whole map. Yet literally every day I hear some PC say “your Laws don’t apply to me, I’m outside your walls, nah na na nah na”. The Law Board itself is outside the walls, defines the outer boundaries of the Dale and says the Laws apply within the boundaries. In my experience banned travelers hopping from one cart to another are not molested. No one has time to type a sentence if you simply get off your cart and get on another cart so don’t make excuses. As noted before, if you quickly make your way out of the Dale the worst thing that happens is a Militia person follows you to make sure you leave.

3) No consequences. As noted, players/pc’s simply flaunt the Laws. I’ve seen it where it’s “I’ve got the baddest PvP build and I’m a mean evil mofo so try to stop me”. Followed by a massacre of any Militia logged in at the time plus any bystanders who try to help. I’ve seen it where you follow the PvP rules and the troublemaker gets rightfully taken down by a bunch of Dale PC’s fair and square, gets banned and comes waltzing back the very next day to exact revenge. It’s one of those situations where there’s no reason for them not to do it. Even if you get killed you don’t stay dead and tomorrow you might get lucky and find the only Militia online are ones you can handle. Why do you think the Dale has so many mid level Militia? I firmly believe one reason is that they quickly get burned out by the near constant testing and taunting, where there’s someone online every day trying to bait you into a confrontation by breaking our Laws then arguing the obvious. How many times can you end up dead before getting tired of the whole mess?

4) Part of the issue as I see it is that bans of every type by rule are only PC enforced outside the walls. There’s no presumed NPC enforcement and I assume sending in screenshots of banned individuals standing outside the Walls isn’t going to result in OOC enforcement. The only routes into and out of the Dale are accessed by traveling outside the walls, see mapping above. So we are faced with a choice of #3, where we either successfully or unsuccessfully enforce the ban outside the walls, rinse and repeat, or we have to ignore the Law being flaunted and pretend the person doesn’t exist. The former being repetitive and exasperating when it’s an almost constant factor and the latter being immersion breaking. I think this is what's driving the earlier suggestion by Liz.

I wish I had some great suggestions but as noted, all the obvious stuff has been tried.

You want to say the laws are only enforced inside the walls? That’s basically giving up and the reason I’ve always enforced what’s written, (which was already written when Missus took over as Mayor). Watch the Dales RP get eaten alive as Banites start having bake sales and conversion ceremonies right outside the gates. Necromancers, chromatics, mass murderers, and Cyricists hold “debate night” right on the main road near the orchard. Sorry, I can't ignore that ICly, I have to do what my PC would do.....

Loitering ban? The roleplay dried up because every time you enforce it, people just left and never came back. They never came inside the Walls. This solution solved the PvP problem by depopulating the area.

Much of what Tomato, Ruff, Kudark, and Liz have written describes the problem accurately. I’ve gotten OOC tells basically blaming me for ruining someone’s RP because I enforced their ban. Why? I’ll paraphrase - “Because I’ve been banned everywhere else and Bendir is the only other place that has people so I can RP with someone.” I guess the only thing I can conclude this with is, if this were easy to solve, we would have already solved it.

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Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

*the following statement is left by Missus for all to see*

Given the quality of candidates running for office and trusting in the inherent wisdom of the citizens of the Dale I hereby decline my nomination. I thank those who nominated me and would ask the election monitors if they can be granted a waiver to allow each one of them to nominate another given my decision to decline.

I wish whomever eventually wins the warmest wishes for a successful term.

Mayor Missus
*Wagon wheel shaped wax seal*

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Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

One time, when there was an issue with a repeat offender of the "I'm banned, but I'm going to stay out here near the carts anyways, cause.. what are you going to do about it? You can't kill me, so hah!", the character was shown just what CAN be done. Nof sent his boys outside the gates, lined up along the road. That's all it took for the person to move on. There was no violence, just the presence of the NPC militia and the knowledge that a DM was there.

I had a similar problem on another server where the PC guards were pretty much viewed as a joke. Then a long-time player ascended to mount DM and became the new Guard DM. Measures were taken to ensure that no longer were the PC Guards the laughingstock of the community. They had the backing of the town government after all. Many of the solutions taken on that server probably wouldn't translate well on Amia, though. (We were given the ability to, based on our rank, take NPC guards around with us. So long as we didn't abuse the privilege. We were also given a horn widget that could summon a larger group of NPC guards if we used it on the town's territory and sent a message to the area that could be responded to by other PC guards.)

The -primary- method, though, was the simply knowledge that the DMs had the PCs' backs. People started seeing the guard PCs as a legitimate authority. Because they knew, OOCly as well as ICly, that if they did something, they could have actual, real consequences. We moved away from random acts of dickery to actual crime plots. Which was more fun and FAR more fulfilling. Even though probably 90% of the criminals got away with it.

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One of my main gripes is, an offending PC is killed, dumped in any of the 3 Dale threat areas, then come back the next day.

Sadly, I don't like the only enforceable solution.

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The DM presence mentioned here is exactly what is needed in the Dale, in my opinion.

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Just lurking about!

On that server I spoke of, permadeath was fairly rare. But execution was a possible outcome of repeated (or drastic) crimes. For the first few times, the body was merely placed in an easily accessible (low OL DC) "Criminals' Tomb". But if you were getting executed frequently enough, measures would be taken that required pretty much a miniplot just to come back to life.

I don't want Bendir Dale to start executing people. I also don't want the Dale needing to build a prison.
But SOMETHING does need to be done.

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Can people stop having selective memory over this? That is not what happened and we need to stop lying to each other. I mean, this is just BLATANTLY UNTRUE. The Dale dried up because of Anubis. It didn't dry up before then. It dried up because PEOPLE QUIT. The loitering thing was in effect for a REALLY long frigging time.

Social structures are hardly ever as simple as X caused Y, but if you want to attribute to a cause as to why the Dale became a death town, it's not the no loitering thing. It was in effects for MONTHS with Lyle, the entire time with me, and partially through the way with Missus. And I always had RP in the Dale. I literally just sat there and an entire Saturday will go by because that's how lively it was. I didn't have to go out and look for anything. It was just there.

And while we're at it? No, it wasn't an effective solution against PvP and it solved NOTHING with Lyle. It really didn't. It didn't happen like Ruff said either. It's not because by natural flow of time, PVP declined with no loitering thing. People in the Dale was ACTIVELY doing something about it ON TOP OF no loitering thing that we reduced our PVP.

Sorry, I really have to chirp in again. The only one having selective memory is on that is you. Bendir Dale RP was crippled within a month of the loitering law being implemented. When completely innocent, goodly characters are endlessly harassed for entirely harmless RP while sitting under an apple tree at a bench, yeah, they aren't going to come back. It was a dumb thing to do, but now everyone knows better now, so take it on the chin and stop trying to brush it under the rug. It wasn't the Anubis plot that put the nail in Bendir's coffin, it was how the attack was handled IC. The PCs in authority were so preoccupied with creating conflict with evil PCs over absolutely trivial things that they ignored the demons literally beating down the door. IC actions had IC consequences, and the DM punished the settlement for having their priorities and logical faculties horribly out of skew, after which many PCs/Players left in a huff. Blaming the event itself isn't being honest with yourself or with the staff. Bendir Dale isn't going to make any progress if it's players don't correctly identify the issues and learn from past attempts.

How about changing the PvP setting from the Dale, that will stop PCs killing other PCs in front of the NPCs. Half your problems solved!

For the rest, good luck!

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

Changing the setting to No PvP will be even less likely to solve problems, to be honest.

Simple reasoning: With the No PvP setting in place, people can even be more obnoxious and no force save DMs could provide any thing resembling earnest enforcement save in RP.

I find quite the opposite, actually. One of my PCs was a Cordor Guard, I found many, if not all, players were actually quite reasonable when they couldn't force their superior build to beat the living crap out of mine.

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

You do also realize part of that is the fact that Cordor has:

1) A background justifying a superior backup and military force that would within reason step in and assist in that case.

2) An established concept of serious consequences for actions against the law. *Read: Cordor's plot and also the tag regarding it*

3) Not a point on Cordor but the fact I too was a Cordorian Guardsman PC at one point? And I fear in a number of cases that people will in spite of being unable to use powerbuilding be arsehats?

@666

The main issue here is actually forcing law-breakers out and to stop Metagaming.

That will /only/ make things worse.

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People will be asshats no matter what's changed, mechanically or ICly, be it in Cordor, Kohlingen or the Dale. The idea to change the PvP setting was to stop people from metagaming the NPCs, it's telling PCs that the Bendir Militia doesn't have a powerful force to back itself up that practically invites people to seek it out, because it's easy prey, regardless of the consequences it's having on the playerbase who just want to sit back and roleplay.

It's easier to screeshot when you're not dealing with a PvP battle, as well.

Also, @Grymia, Kohlingen's PvP rules are set to party, so someone can just walk into Kohlingen, despite the apparent force of arms in the city, and initiate PvP.

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

The loitering law did not kill role-play. Not all of it. I admit it cut it down significantly, but we still had role-play regardless. As one who plays here constantly, even with the recent absence of mine to take a break, I can safely say that I can prove it. Every character we met outside the walls, stranger(s) or friend(s) alike, we took inside the walls and carried on just fine. Granted, it may not have been as pleasant or productive as standing outside with a chance to expand conversation/interaction with passersby, but it was not flatout ruined.

Back to the first paragraph and its meaning, I back it up by adding that, during this random event, I don't recall any of the characters played by said posters arguing against the Loiter-Anubis conflict ever being present here. Now, correct me if I'm wrong as it was also a big clusterfuck, and I may have been distracted or overwhelmed. But seriously, I don't think you people even have knowledge of it. This random event was just that: Random.

What happened?

Summary: A portal opened up under the lake. (Okay...?) Monsters, related to Khem's current conflict, appeared and began to attack. (Monsters? Khem? Why are they here?) The few within the town try to hold them off or drive them out--few characters that were nowhere near epic levels--and get slaughtered. (So much for being balanced.) More than half of the population of Bendir Dale get slaughtered. Militia reacts for the first several minutes but soon are ignored and left standing, unharmed with the rest of the players and implied citizens riddled in pieces around them. (Wow...) Bendir Dale's allies, as well as the selected few individuals/adventurers of the island that tend to make a difference, arrive and take over the situation. (Of course.)

That's pretty much what happened. I know I'm missing something, but this is something I've tried to force myself to forget b/c it was ridiculous. We were too busy arguing with each other or visitors over law-breaking to have been properly prepared? No. We were following through with our law by bringing visitors within the walls to visit with. Preparation? Yeah, right. There was no implication, at any point, that Bendir Dale may have been the next target for attack. No signs. No weird readings. No nothing.

"Well... You won't always have it your way. Fate is cruel. Things happen randomly. Cruel Truth: A DM has the right to fuck you over. It's role-play!"

Yes! It is! I understand that perfectly. Also, it is our right, as players, to not take part in such events. And that's exactly what killed Bendir Dale. Perhaps not kill, but severely crippled its livelihood. People became upset, upset over the bullshit that happened, and simply left. The few that remained, realizing the overwhelming blanket of depression and disappointment in the faction area, followed shortly after. Myself, included.

The event within Bendir Dale died as quickly as it happened.

So, no. Loiter law was not responsible, dears. At all. It was the fact that we were forced to bend over and take it from behind like a man.

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Serena Voi: An adorable little Halfling.
Brizthara D'ulov: A spoiled, loud-mouthed priestess.

You don't understand at all.

This invites way more Metagame than you think. Let me use Tomato's example:



If a banned PC doesn't think they're banned, we'll just have to screenie and sit and watch them ruin immersion.

With PvP, we can actually remove them/defend.

The issue at hand is, why are people waltzing in, being ICly aggressive and ignoring the OOC restrictions of being banned?

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None of the above concerning the Anubis plot is even remotely true, sadly. There was plenty of warning. I know, because I as the only PC bothering to give the warnings. And yes, Laurel and co. were busy literally pulling off other PC's helmets in the middle of combat rather than dealing with the demon horde because it was "in the laws." I'm not going to defend that plot too hard since it was run poorly and ended up killing any enjoyment I had for my Bendir-Dale character as well, but it wasn't the event itself that killed Bendir Dale. It's more a pervasive and intolerant attitude that many of the players possess when it comes to RP that is different to what they prefer. Inflexibility is poison to any RP community.

As usual, NinjaClarinet is only capable of lying for the most part. But hey, what do you expect from a forum troll?

The only thing that has any resemblance to truth is that Talyne did give warnings, if it counts as such. Which basically was SOMETHING BAD COULD HAPPEN AT ANY TIME, ANYWHERE, TO ANY BODY. BE ON THE LOOK OUT. Which, contrary to NinjaClarinet's ignorant assumptions, as usual, we took to heart and was doing something about it. I guess NinjaClarinet is butthurt he wasn't involved in the conversation.

Anubis stuff aside, let's focus on Ruff's concern:

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As for blatantly ignoring guards and metagaming them, there is literally nothing you can do short of poke a DM that might be available. They aren't available nearly enough, yes, that's a well known problem. However, when you acknowledge the characters doing it, when you confront them or provide any interaction at all, you are "validating" their RP. If they are truly metagaming, then they aren't actually there IC in my mind. Soon as you take their bait however, you are adding their metagaming to your character's continuity. If you literally pretend they aren't there, or go elsewhere, then you can say IC they have never been there at all, and that would be enforced by the rules in place if it ever comes up. Like I said earlier, I had to do it with Banites in Tarkuul all the time. They are officially banned, but there wasn't always DM oversight when they wandered into the town. I ignored them or took my RP elsewhere rather than got into the dick-measuring contests with them. I think perhaps a workable solution for Bendir Dale is to add some locked interior areas and give out keys to only those you trust so you can take the RP inside when there are douchebags on the road.

Rather than address Tomato directly, I'll point out that the attitude shown does nothing to help with the settlement's popularity.

If people RP'd away from the roads, we wouldn't have this issue.

Fact is: They do and running away won't stop it as long as it's the main RP section of the Dale.

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No, you certainly can't permanently stop bad eggs from being trolls, but you sharply decrease their prevalence when they know they won't get any acknowledgement from you. As players, that is literally the only thing you can do without more DM oversight, unless you really want to sink down to their level. As the old saying goes, when you argue with idiots...

Guys, please keep this civil.

As always though, if someone is blatantly breaking server rules, (PvP inside the walls or in front of NPCs, etc), /Please/ screenshot, or chatlog it, and send it to a DM. We may not be able to address the issues immediately, but we can't do anything if we're not informed.

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I play:

Then please stop arguing or calling out on "lies" and further feeding the tension within this thread. With all due respect, you're pretty ignorant on our feelings and issues on this matter up to this point. You haven't actively spent or invested time in the area to know what is going on. So please don't assume like you know what the problem is or blatantly call out something wasn't the cause of it.



Kobra, we've tried that. Constantly. Ask Tomato. I was the one that offered, more or less, half the screenshots Tomato has sent in the past. Nothing has happened. Only been tagged as overreacting, whining, and bitching.

In fact, something I will point out, it was as bad at one point that some of the staff had the audacity to suggest we record videos of gameplay and send links to them, simply to "prove" ourselves.

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Serena Voi: An adorable little Halfling.
Brizthara D'ulov: A spoiled, loud-mouthed priestess.

We've tried this before, actually. I've even made the statement before in-game that it might just be easier to assume that they aren't there IC because they shouldn't be there IC. The issue is that most people don't share that view, and as long as they're there, they're eventually going to get that validating RP from somebody. And furthermore, taking our RP elsewhere would be a lot more effective if anyone was interested in RPing inside the walls, but they aren't. The gathering point is on the corner by the carts, and I don't really feel like it's fair or constructive to the people who aren't breaking rules to have to evacuate every time some asshat troll shows up.

Also, guys, please. The point of this thread isn't to fight each other, it's to solve a problem. So what if people who are "ignorant of our situation" are commenting? There are ways to correct them without being hostile and attacking them. If you're going to post something, make sure it's constructive first. Attacking each other won't solve anything and it's only going to get the thread locked.

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Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster

I'm well aware of the Bendir Dale dynamic. Perhaps not recently, but I invested many months into the town and surrounding areas. My druid rented a house there and RPed in the area consistently for many months even after the majority of the halflings disappeared for a break, so I'm entirely familiar with the cycles of PvP and activity that happen there. One thing I did notice was that most of the trolls also packed up and left when many of the more...reactive...players took their break, which leads me to believe that it's a "feeding" effect. I do appreciate the sane response, Tuff, I'm not saying what I do just to pick at anyone.

Ninja does have a point, though. The attitude of Bendir, in most cases, is just as hostile as some of the comments in this thread. And there's a reason for that. We're frustrated. We're exasperated. We're worn down to the wire because we've spent so long in this predicament and feeling like nobody is there to help us. I'm sorry that the result of that is dale characters being cruel or aggressive toward everyone, but there's a reason behind it that most people aren't aware of, and now you know. You can only pester a cat for so long before it gets mean. The dale has just been pestered to the point where a lot of us are just mean now.

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Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster

I know, I'm just trying to respond to everyone's perspective so I can clear as much stuff up as possible. I'm really trying to keep this thread on a "what to do to help Bendir" track and less of a "well this is why you're all fucked" track. Or in some of the dale players' cases, the "I don't like you so GTFO and don't help" track.

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Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster

If NinjaClarinet is a forum troll, you're going to have to put me on that list too, because he's absolutely right.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

Hey guys, sorry for the delayed response.

Firstly-- Breathe, guys. Everyone on the DM team is more than happy to help solve these issues. We've got a good topic running on it already. And there's really no need to continue attacking each other in this thread. We're each trying to generate a better atmosphere. Even among the DM team, we disagree pretty frequently. We come up with ideas, we brainstorm, and some of them are just stupid (I had one myself recently! ) But there are also plenty of good ideas in there. So please, as a simple act of good manners that can go a really long way-- attack the idea, not the player. I understand you guys are exasperated, and none of us on the staff meant for this to happen. So let's breathe, collect ourselves for a moment, and talk like civil adults. You more than have our attention, at the moment.

(I'm writing more to address the issues, I just had to put this out there as quick as I could.)

Well, I hope so. We need support.

"We just stated that's not the [complete] solution!"

It's a start, though. We have to take babysteps. We all know it. Nothing will be or get done unless we have someone backing us up--controlling guards, controlling residents, voicing the town's opinions during scheduled meetings, etc.

The problem with that is it has to be someone who is active and interested in the faction area. Someone who's willing to put Bendir Dale in the top of their priority list much like the others with their own faction areas. That literally narrows it down to the group that is currently active in the town.

In a way, it comes down to boldly suggesting someone be appointed to Bendir Dale and Bendir Dale alone. If none, then someone from the currently active player group be appointed as one and work from there.

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Serena Voi: An adorable little Halfling.
Brizthara D'ulov: A spoiled, loud-mouthed priestess.

Now, I'm going to describe how the situation currently works in regards to the NPC militia and banned persons. Please keep in mind that this is just the current situation. This thread, and the tangent thread on the DM forums, is designed to improve upon this current paradigm using your opinions and advice. So as I explain, don't flip your tables just yet! I just want to provide the groundwork for change through thorough description, first.
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Bendir Dale is an extremely complicated case. ICly and OOCly, unfortunately. ICly, its a small-sized agricultural community planted right on the Merchant road. It sees incredible traffic-- both in quantity and variety. Its also positioned smack-dab in a valley between the Mylocks and the Skull Crag Trolls, and has orcs to the South and dangerous forest creatures to the North. Geographically speaking, Bendir Dale is in the heart of Amia-- with all its problems, and all its boons.

Bendir Dale has two circles of security. One inner cordon, and an outer cordon. The Inner Cordon is focused on keeping the law inside the Dale. They're better known as Racial Gate guards. They stand at the wall, and they keep murderers from killing Dale children. The Outer Cordon are scouts, positioned outside of the walls and are responsible for keeping an eye on Trolls (NPC), Mylocks, and any kind of monster that comes in through the areas they are positioned. Its important to note that these outer cordon militia are not responsible for looking inside. Which means that there's a sort of buffer between the actual walls of the Dale, the traffic on the roads, and the extension of Dale territory. This is done for a valid IC reason, however-- [Pun incoming] and its that the Dale is simply short-staffed. The Merchant road, seen through cart traffic and even PC presence, carries soo many travelers that its essentially impossible for the Outer Cordon guards to screen every single person who travels through. They do, however, look to see if anyone is a monster, and they stop those guys. But they don't cross-check banned people from a list like the Racial Gate guards do, because it would slow traffic dramatically.

So to elaborate on a concern: When someone is banned from the Dale, they are indeed banned from inside and outside the walls. They're banned from the entire area. However, the Dale NPC guard cannot actually enforce that ban outside of their physical walls, purely due to their numbers. So a player who is banned can indeed linger outside of the walls without technically metagaming the guards there. And indeed, at present, they can even start violence without technically metagaming the guards outside of the walls. (But again, this is just the current situation. After this, we're going to brainstorm solutions-- and I have a few already myself in mind). This is why the PC guard is encouraged to enforce the law in that buffer zone between the circles of security. Its why they can catch a banned individual lingering in their territory (though outside of their walls), and rightfully tell them that they need to leave or suffer consequences, even though the NPC guards aren't helping.

A player is metagaming if they walk up to an NPC guard and flaunt the fact that they're banned, and they can't do anything about it, or anything silly like that. A player is metagaming if they are a banned individual and enter the Dale without DM supervision. And, a player is metagaming if they fight inside the Dale walls without Dm supervision.

All of this can change when a Dm decides to possess NPC's. If a DM so decides, he or she can possess a slew of militia guard and have them try to escort out a highly dangerous individual located in their buffer zone.

That's the current situation. Its reasoned behind a hybrid of IC and OOC reasons. ICly, we're looking at a numbers and location issue. OOCly, we're also looking at a conflict hub. As a server, we want to be very careful how we treat and handle conflict. IC actions receive IC consequences, of course. But we still recognize that without evil PC's, Amia becomes a stagnant place. The Dm's simply aren't capable of delivering all the evil that Amia requires. Again, I'm not justifying inaction of the staff. I'm simply trying to explain why things are as they are now. Understanding that you guys are all very upset, we're going to have to work together to change some things to better accommodate you guys. The other kind of OOC issues that come with the Dale stems from things already mentioned from Lizzie and NC and all you Dale folks, with things the carts being positioned as they are and DM presences.

Ultimately, we're looking at a very dynamic issue. But that doesn't mean that we're going to give up on helping you guys. Promise.

Now, I'll begin writing up my own ideas. I urge you guys to brainstorm and consider some solutions. But I more importantly urge you to be understanding of each other. To treat each other with respect, even now. Even as you're feeling like you're pushed up against a wall-- keep your chins up and keep your fists down. Let's get through this together.

The response by Laurel is left here.

These might be silly ideas.. but they are still ideas!
Not every hin can be around when these metagaming incidents happen. I agree that the short staff-ness of the Dale is one of the reasons. As the Dale is a 'hub' and there are some familiar faces that hang around here (citizen or not)...
Perhaps create another group (with very well trusted members) that have certain authority to tell banned races/people to leave or face the consequences... and other reasonable authority with a certain restriction.

I've noticed that many want to do something about these problems but they can't because they're not members of the militia and therefore, do not want to face the consequences of dealing with the Dale's problem. (Kard's incident for example and his ban for attacking a loitering chromatic)

Another solutions could be a 'vouching' group that allow other general people hanging around the dale to 'act' as long as a member of that group is there to 'vouch' for them, so they also won't have to face the consequences with dealing with the Dale's problems. (Again with very well trusted members.)

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Rosary Doodlekins - Hin Candy Witch

I think you're coming at the problem with the right spirit, Elyon, but that sounds like an awful lot of bureaucracy and red tape to me. I think the answers lie in the direction of making things less complicated, not more, ya know?

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

Honestly... anyone that is a DM or has been a DM on any server with a solid player base knows; that no matter what you do you are not going to please everyone. No matter what plans you implement, you are going to piss someone off ICly and OOCly.

There have been some valid points made by people on both sides of the fence. But being as Bendir is on the road leading north, and you have to go through it to get to the north in some way... either on the road itself, or via caravan... you still end up in Bendir. So that limits some players from RP'ing their toons like they would because they cant go into the Dale... and that is going to get under the skin of people. Others want to have their RP time without interferance, and with toons coming and going all the time... they are not going to get it, and that is making those players mad...

However, from what I have seen from several of the posters on this thread... they are angry, and beligerant to the point of outright rudeness, because they want what they want, and are not getting it.

Honestly, the best choice I think, is for the DM's to make and set down the rules as what is best for the Dale itself, and not the individual ideas of players... because we all know, no two players are going to have the same ideas, so the conflict in what is fair will continue. But also, when making the rules... be reasonable to other players that have no choice but to go through the dale.

Just my opinion.

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Years of Love are forgotten in the hatred of a minute - Edgar Allen Poe

I agree wholeheartedly, Liz. And I'll admit that in my best efforts to make things run smoothly with the Racial Gates, the Dale got a short end of the stick. Because we were all like, "Uhh.. Crap. This case is much more complicated than -all- the others out there." And we only really realized it after the fact.

So lets try to fix it with something much less complicated. It might take some compromising, but we've got smart minds working here.

And its also true, what we're learning from uncomfortable experiences is that we can't make everyone happy. Usually, I just try to come up with a creative solution to come as close as I can. So we'll see how creative we can be, but that's what I'm talking about: We can't expect to get exactly what we want. We have to, from the get-go, be open to compromise.

Sithaelon: Being reasonable to other players is certainly and universally a good suggestion. But, there's a difference between that and being reasonable to other *characters.* OOC, we're unquestionably obligated not to be assholes to each other. IC, though, we have no such obligation. As long as the roads and carts exist IC, they're appropriately governed IC. Which means, if your character has done something to get her/himself banned from the area... tough f***ing luck. The IC government of Bendir Dale has no interest in making sure that characters are able to travel around the island however they please. Their interest is in protecting the lives and commerce of the Dalers. If you're playing an aggressively evil character or a monster race, and a Dale ban makes travel problematic for you... good. Life *should* be a bit more difficult for those characters. Since there's no realistic threat of death or imprisonment on this server, inconvenience is really the only consequence that can have any meaning.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

What if the road is diverted around the Dale, rather than through it? New bridges could be built across the water, maybe the people of Bendir build a boardwalk around so that they don't inconvenience travelers, whilst expanding their walls to make sure their territories are protected? I think most of the issues which pop up happen around the carts and in that general 'outside' area, since that is where it falls into the grey-area of understanding. Things which happen inside the gates aren't as much of a problem, since they can very simply be screenshotted and a DM informed. The aim would be to move the racial gates to the top of the hill, and divert the carts through the troll hills and across a boardwalk that would lead to the northern side of the water where the bridge currently is. I'll draw this up on a few maps later when I have more time. The details probably aren't the best, but it's just to give an idea. The main focus here is diverging attention away from the road that cuts through the middle of the Dale, since that is the biggest contributing factor to why this is so complicated.

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Just lurking about!

Man, what an...interesting thread.

A thought:

You're an RP hub. That's at the same time awesome and shitty, since because you get the ones you want, and the ones you don't.

Is moving the carts feasible? That will at least leave some of the unwelcomes not having a reason to stand there.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm